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P/F Schools and Implications on OMFS

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I was wondering since the main criteria of matching into OMFS is based on Class Rank + CBSE score with a good amount of EC (Externship, Research, LOR), how exactly does a H/P/F or P/F school help or hurt you.

I've noticed a lot of the top Dental Schools for matching into OMFS tend to be P/F schools, some with Med Integrated cirriculums (Harvard, Columbia, UConn etc.) . In these schools however, there is no class rank right?
If there is no class ranking or GPA, how do OMFS residency programs judge you compared to peers that have a GPA and Class Rank?

Is P/F school actually beneficial if you plan on doing OMFS in the future?
 

sjv

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Those schools you listed have a strong tradition of matching many, many applicants due to reputation. A strong CBSE (with externships) from any of those schools you've listed is nearly a guaranteed match. I think Columbia matched 12/12 a few years ago or something ridiculous.

Focus on the CBSE, the rest will all fall in place.
 
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Those schools you listed have a strong tradition of matching many, many applicants due to reputation. A strong CBSE (with externships) from any of those schools you've listed is nearly a guaranteed match. I think Columbia matched 12/12 a few years ago or something ridiculous.

Focus on the CBSE, the rest will all fall in place.
Do these schools generally produce students who perform better on the CBSE also? Is that due to the med cirriculum + extra time off for more studying? If my main goal is to be an OMFS then should my top priority as a pre-dental student be to get into these schools? I'll be an OOS student for all schools, would you know what DAT score I should shoot for as a minimum? So far I have a 4.0 in UG, and I'm planning on not losing it anytime soon (or ever). Should I do research to make myself stand out (especially to schools like Harvard and UCLA which are heavy on research) or should my GPA + DAT be enough?

Thanks
 

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pre-dental student

Considering you havnt started dental school yet, don't pigeon hole yourself too much. I'd estimate that at the start of first year at my dental school 30 people in the class would say they are interested in OMFS. But things change. By the end, only 13 applied and 9 matched (in my application year). Its a grind. Go to the dental school where you felt most comfortable with the environment and then as the years go by develop goals, step-by-step. Don't get too ahead of yourself.

D1-2: Crush dental school classes; Occasionally shadow at local OMFS dept/hospital.
D2-3: Study hard/smart for CBSE and crush it (70+). Start to look into/apply for externships
D3-4: Prepare application + Do externhsips (~5weeks is a good amount)
D4: Interviews & Match.
 
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Considering you havnt started dental school yet, don't pigeon hole yourself too much. I'd estimate that at the start of first year at my dental school 30 people in the class would say they are interested in OMFS. But things change. By the end, only 13 applied and 9 matched (in my application year). Its a grind. Go to the dental school where you felt most comfortable with the environment and then as the years go by develop goals, step-by-step. Don't get too ahead of yourself.

D1-2: Crush dental school classes; Occasionally shadow at local OMFS dept/hospital.
D2-3: Study hard/smart for CBSE and crush it (70+). Start to look into/apply for externships
D3-4: Prepare application + Do externhsips (~5weeks is a good amount)
D4: Interviews & Match.

I hear you. The only real concern I had was that I've read multiple times that sometimes being top-5% in your class may be difficult because no matter how hard you try, if your hand skills aren't the best in the beginning compared to your peers you will struggle. Whereas in a P/F school I'm guessing there is more weight placed on an exam such as the CBSE, which is in your control moreso because the score is proportional to the amount of time you spend studying for it. Not to mention some schools with strong OMFS backing can really help with LOR's, and guidance in the match process from what I hear.

By the way, if you don't mind me asking what D School did you attend where you had 13 applicants and 9 matches?
 

BlackThought

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I hear you. The only real concern I had was that I've read multiple times that sometimes being top-5% in your class may be difficult because no matter how hard you try, if your hand skills aren't the best in the beginning compared to your peers you will struggle. Whereas in a P/F school I'm guessing there is more weight placed on an exam such as the CBSE, which is in your control moreso because the score is proportional to the amount of time you spend studying for it. Not to mention some schools with strong OMFS backing can really help with LOR's, and guidance in the match process from what I hear.

1) Hand skills are over discussed in the pre-dental school phase. People rarely talk about it during dental school. Being average or below average in pre-clinical lab will not determine your OMFS fate. I can guarantee you that. No one cares about how nice your class 2 box is or how smooth and shiney you wax up is. If they suck, whatever. It wont preclude you from OMFS.

2) You do not need to be top 5% of your class to do OMFS. Of course it helps. But not a prerequisite like you make it seem.

3) You state the CBSE "score is proportional to the amount of time you spend studying for it." That is false and a dangerous mentality to have to be quite honest. It's way more about how you use the resources than the amount of time. I know many people that started studying for the CBSE at the start of dental school and barely scratched a 65 when they took it. Others studied efficiently and effectively for 6months scores very well. Whoever told you "more time = better score" was not giving you the full picture. Tell them they are wrong.

3) CBSE will be the most important thing about your application regardless of the type of dental school you went to.

4) You are overthinking things/making too many assumptions about the OMFS application process. Go to a dental school you like, ideally with an associated OMFS program. Take it from there.
 
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1) Hand skills are over discussed in the pre-dental school phase. People rarely talk about it during dental school. Being average or below average in pre-clinical lab will not determine your OMFS fate. I can guarantee you that. No one cares about how nice your class 2 box is or how smooth and shiney you wax up is. If they suck, whatever. It wont preclude you from OMFS.

2) You do not need to be top 5% of your class to do OMFS. Of course it helps. But not a prerequisite like you make it seem.

3) You state the CBSE "score is proportional to the amount of time you spend studying for it." That is false and a dangerous mentality to have to be quite honest. It's way more about how you use the resources than the amount of time. I know many people that started studying for the CBSE at the start of dental school and barely scratched a 65 when they took it. Others studied efficiently and effectively for 6months scores very well. Whoever told you "more time = better score" was not giving you the full picture. Tell them they are wrong.

3) CBSE will be the most important thing about your application regardless of the type of dental school you went to.

4) You are overthinking things/making too many assumptions about the OMFS application process. Go to a dental school you like, ideally with an associated OMFS program. Take it from there.

Ah I see. However don't you get graded on your hand skills in D school? So even small screw ups can lead to a drop in class rankings. In a P/F curriculum you won't have to worry about small screw ups messing you over right?

And duly noted on the CBSE. Intelligence is also probably a factor in the exam. Hopefully I have that on my side!

One question, what if one of my state schools doesn't have an OMFS program at all? It's unfortunate because that will probably be my cheapest option in the entire nation (probably by a good 100k) but it doesn't have an OMFS program. Will that put me at a disadvantage?
 

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Ah I see. However don't you get graded on your hand skills in D school? So even small screw ups can lead to a drop in class rankings. In a P/F curriculum you won't have to worry about small screw ups messing you over right?

And duly noted on the CBSE. Intelligence is also probably a factor in the exam. Hopefully I have that on my side!

One question, what if one of my state schools doesn't have an OMFS program at all? It's unfortunate because that will probably be my cheapest option in the entire nation (probably by a good 100k) but it doesn't have an OMFS program. Will that put me at a disadvantage?

Go to the cheapest school! Everything else can easily be overcome. 100k debt is not. Grades or P/F, a home OMFS program or none, long summer breaks or no breaks, etc. ignore it, save 100k. Will it be more difficult? Sure, but you're interested in OS, everything in life is going to be difficult.
 
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predent2151

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Ah I see. However don't you get graded on your hand skills in D school? So even small screw ups can lead to a drop in class rankings. In a P/F curriculum you won't have to worry about small screw ups messing you over right?

And duly noted on the CBSE. Intelligence is also probably a factor in the exam. Hopefully I have that on my side!

One question, what if one of my state schools doesn't have an OMFS program at all? It's unfortunate because that will probably be my cheapest option in the entire nation (probably by a good 100k) but it doesn't have an OMFS program. Will that put me at a disadvantage?

Just because your state school doesn’t have an OMFS department doesn’t mean they don’t have OMFS faculty. You’ll still have an opportunity to pursue the speciality.
 
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Likkriue

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It’s about sacrifice. I didn’t have a summer between D1 and D2 because I used it to study for the cbse. While all my classmates were off traveling, riding on boats and suntanning on the beach I was hammering Uworld and first aid.
It’s about going above and beyond.

Got a half day on a Friday? It’s a trip to the OR to observe and possibly assist on cases. Not Netflix or going to the bar.

Class starts at 8? But there’s trauma rounds or research presentations being given by OS residents at 7? Well time to start waking up earlier.
It gets tougher in residency and they want to know you are able to engage the grind.
 
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It’s about sacrifice. I didn’t have a summer between D1 and D2 because I used it to study for the cbse. While all my classmates were off traveling, riding on boats and suntanning on the beach I was hammering Uworld and first aid.
It’s about going above and beyond.

Got a half day on a Friday? It’s a trip to the OR to observe and possibly assist on cases. Not Netflix or going to the bar.

Class starts at 8? But there’s trauma rounds or research presentations being given by OS residents at 7? Well time to start waking up earlier.
It gets tougher in residency and they want to know you are able to engage the grind.

I understand it's going to be difficult and I'm going to have to make sacrifices. I'm completely fine with that. But I don't want to put myself at a disadvantage by going to a school which doesn't gear students towards specializing, but rather the opposite.

Another thing is that before starting UG, I thought I would barely scrape into Dental School. I never even thought about the possibility of specializing. But these last 2 years in UG I realized that I'm actually a really good student when I put in the effort, and that I could actually have a shot at specializing and doing something I would love to do for the next 40 years (surgery). I want to give myself the best opportunity possible and I'm in a rare position where I can actually probably be a competitive applicant to those schools which help you specialize.

Grades or P/F, a home OMFS program or none, long summer breaks or no breaks, etc. ignore it
I've heard breaks are actually key in the process, not because of rest but because they allow you to go do externships. By not having breaks and not being able to do externships I would be putting myself at a really severe disadvantage, right?

Also these breaks allow you to study more for the CBSE, which will also be a big key in the process. It seems like D Schools that focus a lot on the clinicals don't give much free time for anything else? At the end of the day I'm still human. Going 8 AM to 8 PM doing D school/clinical stuff won't leave much energy to study for CBSE.

It seems in this case P/F allows you to not worry about getting a 100% on every exam and use some of that free time to study.
 

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I come from a school that does ranking and GPA. We have all specialties recognized by ADA and I can tell you that it doesn't guarantee matching into those programs if you attend the school. What matters is: grades, GPA, ranking, externships, internships, volunteering services, research, and last but not least interest! You are only predent right now, focus on getting into the school that is least expensive, and where you will be comfortable studying for 4 years. Along the way, you'd find out what you're good at and what you want to do. I remember at orientation for my first day of dental school, everyone wanted to be OMFS or ortho. Many of those people find out their backs and necks do not like OMFS or they realize that they do not like thirds extractions. Good luck!
 
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I come from a school that does ranking and GPA. We have all specialties recognized by ADA and I can tell you that it doesn't guarantee matching into those programs if you attend the school. What matters is: grades, GPA, ranking, externships, internships, volunteering services, research, and last but not least interest! You are only predent right now, focus on getting into the school that is least expensive, and where you will be comfortable studying for 4 years. Along the way, you'd find out what you're good at and what you want to do. I remember at orientation for my first day of dental school, everyone wanted to be OMFS or ortho. Many of those people find out their backs and necks do not like OMFS or they realize that they do not like thirds extractions. Good luck!
I see what you mean, however OMFS is a different specialty than something like Endo/Ortho/Pedo/Prostho/Perio etc. because it goes beyond the procedures you perform in dental school. By that I mean in dental school you can see if you like root canals more than braces or implants etc. but things like orthognathic surgery aren't covered in the cirriculum I don't think. That's why I feel like OMFS atleast is a specialty that you either like from the beginning or you don't. Either you like the surgical aspect of facial reconstruction or you would rather be doing restorative work on teeth, or you like both but one more than the other, like me.

I just want to best prepare myself that's all. I'm just trying to get some advice right now on what schools I should target if I am primarily interested in OMFS. I'll be applying to my state schools regardless because they are still high quality programs and I'll weigh my options later. I'm just trying to get some more info right now.

I would rather be proactive than reactive. Same thing with applying to dental school. It's better to know from high school itself you want to go into dental school than figuring out Junior year of college that you want to do dental school, because now you are scrambling to get your application ready. The high schooler who started thinking about dental school early will be better off in his application 10 times out of 10. Most people would have said get into college first and see what you like but we all know sometimes that's too late.
 
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On a side note, suppose you didn't go to a P/F school. Then would it be better to go to the less competitive school (and by that I mean school that has lower GPA/DAT on average) because then you could be the bigger fish in a smaller pond? This will make your road to getting a high class rank more straightforward, correct? Worst case scenario I imagine would be going to a grade based school where everyone is a gunner because competition will be intense and being top 10% will be way too difficult.
 

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There's a lot more to OMFS than 3rds.

Agreed. Not saying otherwise. I'm saying that part of the training that OMFS residents do at my school's program, as well as the most occupying of their time (they're in clinic 8:30am-5pm, 3-4 days out of the week doing thirds, difficult extractions, complex med hx, etc.). OR days are only a few days out of the week. I'm just saying that if I were interested in doing OMFS at my school, i'd have to at least be okay with doing thirds. If I hate it then, I'd rather not put myself through that.
 

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I see what you mean, however OMFS is a different specialty than something like Endo/Ortho/Pedo/Prostho/Perio etc. because it goes beyond the procedures you perform in dental school. By that I mean in dental school you can see if you like root canals more than braces or implants etc. but things like orthognathic surgery aren't covered in the cirriculum I don't think. That's why I feel like OMFS atleast is a specialty that you either like from the beginning or you don't. Either you like the surgical aspect of facial reconstruction or you would rather be doing restorative work on teeth, or you like both but one more than the other, like me.

I just want to best prepare myself that's all. I'm just trying to get some advice right now on what schools I should target if I am primarily interested in OMFS. I'll be applying to my state schools regardless because they are still high quality programs and I'll weigh my options later. I'm just trying to get some more info right now.

I would rather be proactive than reactive. Same thing with applying to dental school. It's better to know from high school itself you want to go into dental school than figuring out Junior year of college that you want to do dental school, because now you are scrambling to get your application ready. The high schooler who started thinking about dental school early will be better off in his application 10 times out of 10. Most people would have said get into college first and see what you like but we all know sometimes that's too late.

You are correct that you don't get training in surgeries at predoc level. However, my impression of any health profession training is to learn why we do it, especially OMFS and any surgical fields. Skills come with practice and training. Learning the reason why you do is what give you the 'doctor' title in your name. In that regard, your best shot at showing OMFS programs that you are what they are looking for is to show them you have the aptitude for all the things I mentioned before. I don't think a lot of people write on their PASS application for OMFS that they did leforts during dental school lol.
 
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On a side note, suppose you didn't go to a P/F school. Then would it be better to go to the less competitive school (and by that I mean school that has lower GPA/DAT on average) because then you could be the bigger fish in a smaller pond? This will make your road to getting a high class rank more straightforward, correct? Worst case scenario I imagine would be going to a grade based school where everyone is a gunner because competition will be intense and being top 10% will be way too difficult.


Holy cow. Is it possible you are over thinking this? I get it. Looking for the best, strategic path to OMFS. Good for you .... I think. When I was in your position .... my only decisions were Lady's Night at Devil House or nickel beer night at Clancy's. Seriously. Work hard in UG, but have a little fun. Plenty of time for the grind.
 
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Do not leave out the pathology aspect of OMFS. It’s on the boards, so if considering this specialty, must like it. Also anesthesia, which is the outpatient OMFS big trick. Must like that too. It’s not just Surgery.
And it could be 6 years. Starting out at 31-32 if you are lucky. And I echo the delayed socialization and free time gratification.
 
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Then would it be better to go to the less competitive school (and by that I mean school that has lower GPA/DAT on average) because then you could be the bigger fish in a smaller pond?
Just because a school has a lower GPA/DAT of the entering class, it doesn't mean the curriculum will be any easier or that the competition will be any less. I think you're underestimating how much effort it takes to do well in dental school. Just because you have a 4.0 thus far in undergrad (I basically did too) does not mean you'll be doing well in all your classes, passing with flying colors. The coursework is close to double and it's way more detailed than an undergrad course usually ever gets. I think you should focus on the near-future, like taking the DAT and actually applying and having different school choices, and then talking about things like this. Planning this early won't get you anywhere if you don't even have an acceptance in hand yet. Getting into dental school requires its own hard work and a little bit of luck- it's not guaranteed just with your undergrad academic stats.
 

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A 4.0 in UG has zero impact on dental school GPA.

Also,
I see what you mean, however OMFS is a different specialty than something like Endo/Ortho/Pedo/Prostho/Perio etc. because it goes beyond the procedures you perform in dental school.
As a dental student you will not be doing the procedures of most of these specialties. You will do RCT, but likely no apico's, you wont be doing ortho, you wont be doing crazy complex prosth cases, and you wont be doing invasive perio procedures. You will be doing procedures in those disciplines, but only the most basic ones that fall within the scope of general dentistry.

I think you'll find that once you graduate dental school, you'll realize how little you know about dentistry. (Not you as in YOU, people in general)
 
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I used to think a lot about this (chances of matching at P/F vs. graded) when I was applying and choosing dental school knowing I wanted to pursue OMFS. Thinking back on this from where I am now, I think at the end of the day, everyone who matches into OMFS, regardless of rank or score, all ultimately put in an exceptional amount of more time, effort, and sacrifice than the majority of their dental school classmates. Ultimately, what matters in the eyes of a program is that these factors are just a window into who you are (e.g. hard-working, ethical, highly self-motivated, enthusiastic, fun team-player, organized, resilient, independent thinker, thick skinned, works well under pressure, mature coping mechanisms) which hopefully will translate into the resident they will be training because an excellent applicant could also end up not translating well in residency. I think we get to focused on the gamble of going to a graded school hoping to be ranked top 10 and we forget that programs also taking a gamble on applicants (will this star applicant continue to be an excellent learner and work as a resident?) and I think you can prove that you are the person that the program wants regardless of which school you go to with very similar effort.
 
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predent2151

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I second that had a 4.0 but it’s a different kind of environment. You need a combination of rediculously hard work, intelligence, and a fair amount of luck to be ranked high.
 
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Holy cow. Is it possible you are over thinking this? I get it. Looking for the best, strategic path to OMFS. Good for you .... I think. When I was in your position .... my only decisions were Lady's Night at Devil House or nickel beer night at Clancy's. Seriously. Work hard in UG, but have a little fun. Plenty of time for the grind.
I just have a ton of free time right now and I know I'll have like 0 free time in D school so I'm just trying to make the most of it and learn all I can right now about the process. I don't wanna be a D3 and scrambling to put together an application or not being proficient enough in the medical sciences and unprepared to take the CBSE because I had no goals or direction.

Just because a school has a lower GPA/DAT of the entering class, it doesn't mean the curriculum will be any easier or that the competition will be any less. I think you're underestimating how much effort it takes to do well in dental school. Just because you have a 4.0 thus far in undergrad (I basically did too) does not mean you'll be doing well in all your classes, passing with flying colors. The coursework is close to double and it's way more detailed than an undergrad course usually ever gets. I think you should focus on the near-future, like taking the DAT and actually applying and having different school choices, and then talking about things like this. Planning this early won't get you anywhere if you don't even have an acceptance in hand yet. Getting into dental school requires its own hard work and a little bit of luck- it's not guaranteed just with your undergrad academic stats.
Actually this was my exact concern. From what I've heard your DAT and GPA don't really predict that you will be at the top of your class, and that's why I can't realistically predict that I would be top 10% at any given dental school even if I got a 30 AA. This is why I created the thread of whether P/F is much more generous to a student, because it seems that even the most hard working, most intelligent student in a dental school class might not be at the top in terms of class rank because of factors he/she cannot control (such as subjective grading on clinical work)

Isn't it better to remove that factor of "luck/no luck" or any other extraneous variables and go to a P/F school, because then you will be judged more on the effort you put in by doing externships/ EC's/ well on the CBSE. Or is it better to go to a graded school and crush it with class rank, which can make you stand out? But this is obviously a risk because one slip up and you could go from #3 to #10 in your class, especially if it's competitive.

I'll be applying to schools in a little over a year, I just wanted some more advice. From an outside looking in perspective, to me it seems that at a graded school you literally have to be flawless for 4 straight years, whereas at a P/F schools there is room for error, and you mostly have to be perfect for 1 big exam. Am I correct in thinking this?
 
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Do not leave out the pathology aspect of OMFS. It’s on the boards, so if considering this specialty, must like it. Also anesthesia, which is the outpatient OMFS big trick. Must like that too. It’s not just Surgery.
And it could be 6 years. Starting out at 31-32 if you are lucky. And I echo the delayed socialization and free time gratification.
Yeah I thought about that, but honestly it's only 4-6 years of my life which will make the rest of my hopefully long life very exciting. And honestly maybe I'm just weird but OMFS residency actually sounds pretty exciting to me. It's a lot of hours but I read that you're on call for emergency cases and such, and if I had to wake up at 2 am for anything, I would prefer for it to be something exciting like severe facial trauma, which almost seems like solving a really complicated puzzle but with really high stakes. I'm getting excited just thinking about it.
 

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The high schooler who started thinking about dental school early will be better off in his application 10 times out of 10.

All the students at my school who started thinking about dentistry in high school told me I was too late thinking about dentistry 1 year before i apply
 

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It's a lot of hours but I read that you're on call for emergency cases and such, and if I had to wake up at 2 am for anything

wow good for you haha. I wouldn't wake up at 2am even if my house was burning down
 
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All the students at my school who started thinking about dentistry in high school told me I was too late thinking about dentistry 1 year before i apply
I have no clue how you got all your pre-reqs done, LOR's, EC's, Shadowing, personal statement, taking the DAT etc. all done in one year, but I'm guessing you're superman and it obviously worked out for you haha
 
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I have no clue how you got all your pre-reqs done, LOR's, EC's, Shadowing, personal statement, taking the DAT etc. all done in one year, but I'm guessing you're superman and it obviously worked out for you haha

I am a bio major so all my degree courses were already pre-reqs. I gave my LOR writers 3 weeks to send it to the pre-health committee for my committee letter. The DAT only takes 3 months. Volunteering I was already doing and added couple dental ones. Shadowing you could literally do in a year if committed. Lol funny thing is my UCSF interviewer said the same thing you said and I had to explain myself
 

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And honestly maybe I'm just weird but OMFS residency actually sounds pretty exciting to me. It's a lot of hours but I read that you're on call for emergency cases and such, and if I had to wake up at 2 am for anything, I would prefer for it to be something exciting like severe facial trauma, which almost seems like solving a really complicated puzzle but with really high stakes. I'm getting excited just thinking about it.

You are making assumptions again.

Its easy to say this type of stuff when you are still in undergrad. You're not "special" or "weird". Sure, OMFS residency is exciting and a great time overall. But there are times where things really suck. Based off your description of trauma call it appears you are just imagining what it would be like, w/o ever having shadowed/taken call with a resident.

I think you are glamorizing things way too much since you are so far removed from it. I guess that's normal.
 
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You are making assumptions again.

Its easy to say this type of stuff when you are still in undergrad. You're not "special" or "weird". Sure, OMFS residency is exciting and a great time overall. But there are times where things really suck. Based off your description of trauma call it appears you are just imagining what it would be like, w/o ever having shadowed/taken call with a resident.

I think you are glamorizing things way too much since you are so far removed from it. I guess that's normal.
I hear you. I will refrain from making any further statements on OMFS profession because I quite honestly don't know much about the career.

Back on topic though, how are P/F schools looked at by residency admission committee if they don't have a class rank to judge applicants by? And will any P/F school put you are an advantage (like ECU and Roseman) or only schools like Harvard, UCLA, Conn, Columbia? Will going to a P/F school like ECU and Roseman actually put you at a disadvantage?

Also why aren't there a lot of OMFS coming out of graded schools? Is it because of the school or are students who go to graded schools generally not interested in OMFS? Whenever I look at lists of residents at various programs it looks populated by students from these bigger name schools in general (but there are residents from a variety of schools not only the big names). But unfortunately I haven't seen a single OMFS from any of my state schools. I'm worried that I could be the only one in my class looking at specializing. If anyone has been in a situation like that can you tell me how it is?
Personally I feel like if there is atleast one other person in my program that also wants to specialize it becomes a lot easier mentally because there is someone to talk to about the process and get support from.
 

BlackThought

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Also why aren't there a lot of OMFS coming out of graded schools?
Where did you come up with that?
I went to a graded school and over the past 3 years ~30 people are in OMFS.

I'm worried that I could be the only one in my class looking at specializing
I highly doubt that will be the case. And even if it is, why worry about something like that before even having had a single day of dental school.
 
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setdoc7

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To the OP, quit while you are ahead. Go to dental school and see what it’s all about. You have to walk the walk in this field, and observing = crawling. What appears to you as glamorous is actually serious stuff which can be agonizing on hour 34.
As far as P/F goes, the top tier P/F schools transmit all the info necessary for PD’s to make a decision. It is not as straight forward as you believe. I am a PD. Go to dental school. See you in a few years.
 
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753698

To the OP, quit while you are ahead. Go to dental school and see what it’s all about. You have to walk the walk in this field, and observing = crawling. What appears to you as glamorous is actually serious stuff which can be agonizing on hour 34.
As far as P/F goes, the top tier P/F schools transmit all the info necessary for PD’s to make a decision. It is not as straight forward as you believe. I am a PD. Go to dental school. See you in a few years.
Just out of curiosity, do even the top tier schools rank their students secretly? And if so how do you go about that situation?

By that I mean if a school like Harvard still ranks students, would you be more lenient by saying that a top 50% rank at Harvard is equivalent to a top 20% rank at another school, only because it's much harder to get a top 20% class rank at Harvard due to the intraclass competition?

Also are you a PD for OMFS program, if you don't mind me asking?
 
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Just out of curiosity, do even the top tier schools rank their students secretly? And if so how do you go about that situation?

By that I mean if a school like Harvard still ranks students, would you be more lenient by saying that a top 50% rank at Harvard is equivalent to a top 20% rank at another school, only because it's much harder to get a top 20% class rank at Harvard due to the intraclass competition?

Also are you a PD for OMFS program, if you don't mind me asking?
I've read somewhere that P/F schools use languages in their institutional evaluation letters like recommend, strongly recommend, etc or above average performance, excellent performance, exceptional performance etc to qualitatively differentiate candidates based on their internal/unofficial ranking of students.

setdoc is a GPR director, if I'm not mistaken.
 
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ab117

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I'll be applying to schools in a little over a year, I just wanted some more advice. From an outside looking in perspective, to me it seems that at a graded school you literally have to be flawless for 4 straight years, whereas at a P/F schools there is room for error, and you mostly have to be perfect for 1 big exam. Am I correct in thinking this?

I'm a D1 who applied to dental school with the intent of getting into OMFS. There are also several other well-known members you can find plenty of posts from that were the same and wanted to do OMFS from the very beginning, some of them are still D1s like me or are a little further ahead, some of them have been around for a long time and are now residents or practicing OMFS. If you feel like you're being responded to negatively it's because lots of predents act like OMFS is the only thing there is to do and lot of them are ignorant and overconfident. Some of them are serious and have the work ethic to make it and a whole lot of them can't get the grades/test scores or decide they don't even want to specialize or aren't even going to dental school anymore, I know people in each category from my undergrad that were interested in OMFS before we applied.

Obviously I personally don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to specialize and only you know what your motivations are or even how capable you are of achieving your goals, but these predents come on here and get ripped a little bit sometimes because of this attitude, while exposing that they really don't know much what they're talking about. I would suggest that the smartest thing to do is research as much as you can before asking questions, and even then if you can't find the answer, it may just be because you're way too far out to even know how much you don't know. The overwhelming majority of SDN believes pretty strongly that you should go to the cheapest school you get in to, and for good reason, because debt is killer and even us current students won't really understand it until we start making payments. So backlash is to be expected when you ask what is essentially the same question as "should I go to an expensive private school over my state school if it will make it easier for me to become OMFS?" because the same thread has been repeated ad nauseam, and the answers are always the same. I hope this isn't coming off the wrong way because I mean it helpfully, but posting a thread like this showcases that ignorance (and we were all ignorant at some point). Being interested in an awesome field is great, but you should start off by doing lots of research and shadowing, especially when you're still a year away from even applying to dental school. Even just searching "OMFS" and "CBSE" will get you huge amounts of sage advice from people who have been there before us.

To more directly answer your question, tons of people get in to residencies just fine from graded schools, you have to work hard either way.
 
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BluntForceTrauma

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I'm a D1 who applied to dental school with the intent of getting into OMFS. There are also several other well-known members you can find plenty of posts from that were the same and wanted to do OMFS from the very beginning, some of them are still D1s like me or are a little further ahead, some of them have been around for a long time and are now residents or practicing OMFS. If you feel like you're being responded to negatively it's because lots of predents act like OMFS is the only thing there is to do and lot of them are ignorant and overconfident. Some of them are serious and have the work ethic to make it and a whole lot of them can't get the grades/test scores or decide they don't even want to specialize or aren't even going to dental school anymore, I know people in each category from my undergrad that were interested in OMFS before we applied.

Obviously I personally don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to specialize and only you know what your motivations are or even how capable you are of achieving your goals, but these predents come on here and get ripped a little bit sometimes because of this attitude, while exposing that they really don't know much what they're talking about. I would suggest that the smartest thing to do is research as much as you can before asking questions, and even then if you can't find the answer, it may just be because you're way too far out to even know how much you don't know. The overwhelming majority of SDN believes pretty strongly that you should go to the cheapest school you get in to, and for good reason, because debt is killer and even us current students won't really understand it until we start making payments. So backlash is to be expected when you ask what is essentially the same question as "should I go to an expensive private school over my state school if it will make it easier for me to become OMFS?" because the same thread has been repeated ad nauseam, and the answers are always the same. I hope this isn't coming off the wrong way because I mean it helpfully, but posting a thread like this showcases that ignorance (and we were all ignorant at some point). Being interested in an awesome field is great, but you should start off by doing lots of research and shadowing, especially when you're still a year away from even applying to dental school. Even just searching "OMFS" and "CBSE" will get you huge amounts of sage advice from people who have been there before us.

To more directly answer your question, tons of people get in to residencies just fine from graded schools, you have to work hard either way.
People like you deserve a medal for writing the novels the OPs need, but never deserve.
 
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753698

I'm a D1 who applied to dental school with the intent of getting into OMFS. There are also several other well-known members you can find plenty of posts from that were the same and wanted to do OMFS from the very beginning, some of them are still D1s like me or are a little further ahead, some of them have been around for a long time and are now residents or practicing OMFS. If you feel like you're being responded to negatively it's because lots of predents act like OMFS is the only thing there is to do and lot of them are ignorant and overconfident. Some of them are serious and have the work ethic to make it and a whole lot of them can't get the grades/test scores or decide they don't even want to specialize or aren't even going to dental school anymore, I know people in each category from my undergrad that were interested in OMFS before we applied.

Obviously I personally don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to specialize and only you know what your motivations are or even how capable you are of achieving your goals, but these predents come on here and get ripped a little bit sometimes because of this attitude, while exposing that they really don't know much what they're talking about. I would suggest that the smartest thing to do is research as much as you can before asking questions, and even then if you can't find the answer, it may just be because you're way too far out to even know how much you don't know. The overwhelming majority of SDN believes pretty strongly that you should go to the cheapest school you get in to, and for good reason, because debt is killer and even us current students won't really understand it until we start making payments. So backlash is to be expected when you ask what is essentially the same question as "should I go to an expensive private school over my state school if it will make it easier for me to become OMFS?" because the same thread has been repeated ad nauseam, and the answers are always the same. I hope this isn't coming off the wrong way because I mean it helpfully, but posting a thread like this showcases that ignorance (and we were all ignorant at some point). Being interested in an awesome field is great, but you should start off by doing lots of research and shadowing, especially when you're still a year away from even applying to dental school. Even just searching "OMFS" and "CBSE" will get you huge amounts of sage advice from people who have been there before us.

To more directly answer your question, tons of people get in to residencies just fine from graded schools, you have to work hard either way.
Thank you I needed this haha
 
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setdoc7

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I am a GPR PD. I have the read lots of apps from D4’s who have not gotten into OMFS and apply to GPR’s post match. I also have had many GPR’s who have gone on to OMFS after matching and completing my program. The institutional letter says volumes. Also, bear in mind that even P/F schools have grades, they are just not revealed on the transcript, so the school knows who is who for all 4 years. True P/F grading does not exist.
The CBSE seems to be the great equalizer in OMFS. Schools where biomedical science is done with the med schools seem to have an advantage here, but with that said, good preparation can reduce that too.
 
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I am a GPR PD. I have the read lots of apps from D4’s who have not gotten into OMFS and apply to GPR’s post match. I also have had many GPR’s who have gone on to OMFS after matching and completing my program. The institutional letter says volumes. Also, bear in mind that even P/F schools have grades, they are just not revealed on the transcript, so the school knows who is who for all 4 years. True P/F grading does not exist.
The CBSE seems to be the great equalizer in OMFS. Schools where biomedical science is done with the med schools seem to have an advantage here, but with that said, good preparation can reduce that too.
Alright thank you. For now I'll just focus on keeping up my good grades and dominating the DAT so in a year I can be in a strong position to apply to any school I want to. Admission to Dental Schools is not a guarantee I shouldn't be getting so ahead of myself.
 

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I hear you. I will refrain from making any further statements on OMFS profession because I quite honestly don't know much about the career.

Back on topic though, how are P/F schools looked at by residency admission committee if they don't have a class rank to judge applicants by? And will any P/F school put you are an advantage (like ECU and Roseman) or only schools like Harvard, UCLA, Conn, Columbia? Will going to a P/F school like ECU and Roseman actually put you at a disadvantage?

Also why aren't there a lot of OMFS coming out of graded schools? Is it because of the school or are students who go to graded schools generally not interested in OMFS? Whenever I look at lists of residents at various programs it looks populated by students from these bigger name schools in general (but there are residents from a variety of schools not only the big names). But unfortunately I haven't seen a single OMFS from any of my state schools. I'm worried that I could be the only one in my class looking at specializing. If anyone has been in a situation like that can you tell me how it is?
Personally I feel like if there is atleast one other person in my program that also wants to specialize it becomes a lot easier mentally because there is someone to talk to about the process and get support from.

Some of these P/F advertised schools still have a rank. ECU is P/F in terms of courses but you are still ranked.
 

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Can I ask why so focused on OMS? I didn’t read the whole thread so maybe you e already mentioned it...if it is for the sole purpose of doing surgery, you might also consider medical school. If you can match oms you are certainly capable enough of Med school admissions. You’ll also have many more surgical options to choose from. This is coming from a person who also wants to do oms. I’m in dental school preparing for the cbse. But honest opinion, Med school is the best option for someone who flat out wants to cut and operate. So many options and cool fields. I’m stoked for oms, but if surgery is your goal don’t dismiss Med school.
 
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Can I ask why so focused on OMS? I didn’t read the whole thread so maybe you e already mentioned it...if it is for the sole purpose of doing surgery, you might also consider medical school. If you can match oms you are certainly capable enough of Med school admissions. You’ll also have many more surgical options to choose from. This is coming from a person who also wants to do oms. I’m in dental school preparing for the cbse. But honest opinion, Med school is the best option for someone who flat out wants to cut and operate. So many options and cool fields. I’m stoked for oms, but if surgery is your goal don’t dismiss Med school.

Yeah actually this past year I was 50/50 between Med School or Dental School. They're both healthcare and challenging and I didn't know which way to go. But honestly I've always been leaning the dental route because of the idea of private practice and owning/expanding my business. Medicine has private practice too but from what I read it's becoming rather tough due to the competition from various corporate groups (this could happen in Dental too) plus they have a lot more insurance burdens right now. I was looking into General Dentistry because it seemed to be most of everything I would be looking for in a career. But then a few weeks back I started researching Oral Surgery because it seemed interesting to me, and the more I read about it and saw videos the more interested I became. It has pretty much all the benefits of General Dentistry + there is the possibility of doing crazy surgeries. It seems like a fulfilling career.

As for why OMFS vs something like Neurosurgery or Orthopedic Surgery, it's mostly because I don't necessarily want to primarily work in a hospital. I still want that private practice where I can grow my business and be an entrepreneur. I feel like Oral Surgery offers more opportunities for those things than any surgical specialty in Medicine does. I guess you could argue that Plastics could have the same type of entrepreneurial potential as OMFS, but my main argument for why OMFS is that if I were to fail (which hopefully I don't) then I would much rather be a general dentist than a family physician. I would like to work with my hands. And honestly I mean no offense but for me personally being a family physician seems rather mundane. And if I did end up doing general dentistry I would most likely pursue a exodontist/implant based GPR so I could focus on those types of procedures. Dentistry as a whole is a rather surgical field that's what I like about it.

I would like to say that medicine is also a really cool field and has some extremely cool specialties that I could see myself pursuing, and if dentistry didn't exist I would probably be going the medical route.

Another thing I would like to note is that dentistry in general is overlooked, and we are kind of underdogs in a sense. But I like that feeling. As an OMFS I could be a surgeon that flies under the radar. I would rather not get the attention and praise that medical surgeons get, because things like that could overinflate your ego. Prestige is overrated.
 
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desertrat12

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Yeah actually this past year I was 50/50 between Med School or Dental School. They're both healthcare and challenging and I didn't know which way to go. But honestly I've always been leaning the dental route because of the idea of private practice and owning/expanding my business. Medicine has private practice too but from what I read it's becoming rather tough due to the competition from various corporate groups (this could happen in Dental too) plus they have a lot more insurance burdens right now. I was looking into General Dentistry because it seemed to be most of everything I would be looking for in a career. But then a few weeks back I started researching Oral Surgery because it seemed interesting to me, and the more I read about it and saw videos the more interested I became. It has pretty much all the benefits of General Dentistry + there is the possibility of doing crazy surgeries. It seems like a fulfilling career.

As for why OMFS vs something like Neurosurgery or Orthopedic Surgery, it's mostly because I don't necessarily want to primarily work in a hospital. I still want that private practice where I can grow my business and be an entrepreneur. I feel like Oral Surgery offers more opportunities for those things than any surgical specialty in Medicine does. I guess you could argue that Plastics could have the same type of entrepreneurial potential as OMFS, but my main argument for why OMFS is that if I were to fail (which hopefully I don't) then I would much rather be a general dentist than a family physician. I would like to work with my hands. And honestly I mean no offense but for me personally being a family physician seems rather mundane. And if I did end up doing general dentistry I would most likely pursue a exodontist/implant based GPR so I could focus on those types of procedures. Dentistry as a whole is a rather surgical field that's what I like about it.

I would like to say that medicine is also a really cool field and has some extremely cool specialties that I could see myself pursuing, and if dentistry didn't exist I would probably be going the medical route.

Another thing I would like to note is that dentistry in general is overlooked, and we are kind of underdogs in a sense. But I like that feeling. As an OMFS I could be a surgeon that flies under the radar. I would rather not get the attention and praise that medical surgeons get, because things like that could overinflate your ego. Prestige is overrated.


I was in your shoes a few years ago, 50/50 med/dent and went with dentistry. I was also interested in oms when applying and shadowing family practice doctors also basically pushed me away from medicine. I figured if I could get into a medical surgical specialty then I could also get into oms. And if I didn't have what it takes to get into a specialty, I'd much rather be a general dentist than family practice doctor. Sounds pretty similar to you. I also genuinly liked what I saw in a general dentist office. Do you? Even if you do a gpr with exodontia/implant focus, you will still be doing lots of the bread and butter drill/fill/bill type of stuff as you will need to have a patient base in order to do implants. Do you like that bread and butter gp stuff? Doing a class 1 composite restoration may seem "surgical" with a drill and all, but it feels much more like mechanic work. Nothing wrong with that. But you got to be happy with it day in and day out. I ask these questions because all you've mentioned is a desire to grow your business and be entrepreneurial as the reason why you are interested in dental. These are great traits and could lead to a good practice, but just a few things to consider:

1. Do you like being a dentist first and the business growth/entrepreneurial possibilities of the profession because you want to be a successful dentist? Or, do you like business growth/entrepreneurial possibilities first, and find dental to be a safe and acceptable vehicle to carry those entrepreneurial desires? No problem with either...but if your answer is my second question, and you really are an entrepreneur at heart, then my guess is you will be frustrated by dentistry and especially by oms. You will be in borderline torturous schooling for 4 year (dental) plus 4-6 (oms) all while raking up huge amounts of debt, postponing any entrepreneurial endeavors for almost a decade, and making a bet that the health care scene will be as welcoming to the small business owner as it currently is (a big gamble). You will be carving your 100th wax tooth wondering why you aren't out there making money doing something else.

2. When you choose dentistry over medicine due to the business possibilities of dentistry, does money play a large roll in this? Do you anticipate making much more money as a small business owner than a salaried doctor? What if you peered into your future and saw that you would be making the same money running your own dental practice (and working extra hard to handle all that comes with business ownership) as you would be clocking in and out of a medical practice? What if you found out you made less as a dental owner than a doctor clocking in and out without the business ownership worries? Many medical specialties can get you past the 500k mark. A successful dental office can as well. But playing the odds, you'd be better off in medicine if money is your main motivation.

3. Money aside, it sounds like you like the surgical aspect of general dentistry compared to the day to day of a family practice doc. So if you couldn't match surgery, you'd prefer general dentistry. Like I said, I reasoned the same to make my decision. BUT. There are many non "surgical" medical specialties that still get to do cool procedures. Even anesthesia can do cool procedures. There are interventional radiologist and cardiologist, etc etc. All of these have sort of a surgical flare to them. And they all pay extremely good. Unbelievably good in some cases. I realize now I was short sited in thinking it was either full-blown surgical specialty or family practice doc. In medicine/dentistry as in life, its not black and white. But the same can be said for dentistry. A periodontist, for example, gets lots of cool dentoalveolar surgical stuff. You just often have to pay a lot for those residencies as compared to medical residencies which are all paid.

I had some other thoughts, but I've forgotten as I've typed this novel. You seem very similar to myself, so I felt like I should share what I've learned looking back over 2 years of dental school. Bottom line, go to dental school if you want to be a dentist. I'm not trying to dissuade you from going to dental school. I am happy with my decision even with my current aspirations of oral surgery. But you have to be happy being a dentist to go to dental school. If you really do want surgery, your best bet is medicine. If you really do want business/entrepreneurship, your best bet something OTHER than medicine OR dental. If you want to be a dentist, then there is no better way to do it then going to dental school. Just remember it requires A LOT of you. Your time, chunks of your life, your energy, money you don't have, etc. All these thoughts, doubts, and questions will come rushing to your mind as a D1 and will crush you unless you are sure dentistry is the life you want.


...and I agree, presitgue is over rated. "Don't start chasing applause and acclaim. That way lies madness.” - Ron Swanson
 
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BlackThought

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Yeah actually this past year I was 50/50 between Med School or Dental School. They're both healthcare and challenging and I didn't know which way to go. But honestly I've always been leaning the dental route because of the idea of private practice and owning/expanding my business. Medicine has private practice too but from what I read it's becoming rather tough due to the competition from various corporate groups (this could happen in Dental too) plus they have a lot more insurance burdens right now. I was looking into General Dentistry because it seemed to be most of everything I would be looking for in a career. But then a few weeks back I started researching Oral Surgery because it seemed interesting to me, and the more I read about it and saw videos the more interested I became. It has pretty much all the benefits of General Dentistry + there is the possibility of doing crazy surgeries. It seems like a fulfilling career.

As for why OMFS vs something like Neurosurgery or Orthopedic Surgery, it's mostly because I don't necessarily want to primarily work in a hospital. I still want that private practice where I can grow my business and be an entrepreneur. I feel like Oral Surgery offers more opportunities for those things than any surgical specialty in Medicine does. I guess you could argue that Plastics could have the same type of entrepreneurial potential as OMFS, but my main argument for why OMFS is that if I were to fail (which hopefully I don't) then I would much rather be a general dentist than a family physician. I would like to work with my hands. And honestly I mean no offense but for me personally being a family physician seems rather mundane. And if I did end up doing general dentistry I would most likely pursue a exodontist/implant based GPR so I could focus on those types of procedures. Dentistry as a whole is a rather surgical field that's what I like about it.

Another thing I would like to note is that dentistry in general is overlooked, and we are kind of underdogs in a sense. But I like that feeling. As an OMFS I could be a surgeon that flies under the radar. I would rather not get the attention and praise that medical surgeons get, because things like that could overinflate your ego. Prestige is overrated.

What the heck is going on here? This thread is getting out of control.

Three points:
1) If implants + exodontia are what intrigue you the most about OMFS, please don't pursue it.
2) Family physicians work with their hands all the time. On my med school family med rotation I did many DREs.
3) "Not necessarily wanting to work primarily in a hospital" is not the right attitude to enter OMFS applications with, let alone dental school. Sure, maybe as a 5th or 6th year resident you can be like "Screw it, I've had enough, private practice here I come". But you are planning things out for 10years down the road.

Honestly, a part of me admires the interest you have in OMFS. Another part of me finds it too naive and uninformed. You type these walls of texts, w/o much knowledge behind it, and its apparent.
 
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ArmyOralSurgery

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Some other thoughts that haven’t come up:

The military has a pretty decent path to OMS, having a stable income through school and residency while getting to go to whatever school you want takes away a lot of the anxiety and compromise you see here with advocating for the cheapest school possible. Not a guarantee so you need to accept that you could have a military-focused payback or not match at all. People will argue with me but it is easier to get into a military residency than on the civilian side, especially from a numbers standpoint. If you like teeth, titanium and orthognsthics then the military is a good option (teaching dental students and recon are minimally emphasized).

The business side of OMS is not nearly as bright as it was in the past. The money is there to grind but not so much in the solo practice. The real money is in GPs opening up multispeciality offices and the GP referral is how you eat. I see a very near future where most of the exciting implant cases are all done by the motivated GPs whose chair the patient sits in first. I die on the inside when I see these people posting their cases on Facebook not having any idea what they are doing, not knowing anything about medicine, nothing evidence based but these are the guys who will be doing most of the high dollar cases.

Last and probably most controversial point: do NOT go to a case-based or problem-based learning school or whatever they are calling them these days. To learn those hard medical sciences you need to be really taught them, ideally with something closely resembling medical school curriculum. We have seen some absolute disasters coming out of those schools, just not prepared at all. I’m not saying it’s every single student coming from there, but if I see an app with LECOM on it that will be filed immediately in the trash unless the CBSE something insane like over 90.

The best shot anyone has at OMS is grinding as hard as possible in an evnvironment that supports doing as well as possible on the CBSE with a strong medicine emphasis and spending ideally 5 weeks externing.
 
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753698

I was in your shoes a few years ago, 50/50 med/dent and went with dentistry. I was also interested in oms when applying and shadowing family practice doctors also basically pushed me away from medicine. I figured if I could get into a medical surgical specialty then I could also get into oms. And if I didn't have what it takes to get into a specialty, I'd much rather be a general dentist than family practice doctor. Sounds pretty similar to you. I also genuinly liked what I saw in a general dentist office. Do you? Even if you do a gpr with exodontia/implant focus, you will still be doing lots of the bread and butter drill/fill/bill type of stuff as you will need to have a patient base in order to do implants. Do you like that bread and butter gp stuff? Doing a class 1 composite restoration may seem "surgical" with a drill and all, but it feels much more like mechanic work. Nothing wrong with that. But you got to be happy with it day in and day out. I ask these questions because all you've mentioned is a desire to grow your business and be entrepreneurial as the reason why you are interested in dental. These are great traits and could lead to a good practice, but just a few things to consider:

1. Do you like being a dentist first and the business growth/entrepreneurial possibilities of the profession because you want to be a successful dentist? Or, do you like business growth/entrepreneurial possibilities first, and find dental to be a safe and acceptable vehicle to carry those entrepreneurial desires? No problem with either...but if your answer is my second question, and you really are an entrepreneur at heart, then my guess is you will be frustrated by dentistry and especially by oms. You will be in borderline torturous schooling for 4 year (dental) plus 4-6 (oms) all while raking up huge amounts of debt, postponing any entrepreneurial endeavors for almost a decade, and making a bet that the health care scene will be as welcoming to the small business owner as it currently is (a big gamble). You will be carving your 100th wax tooth wondering why you aren't out there making money doing something else.

2. When you choose dentistry over medicine due to the business possibilities of dentistry, does money play a large roll in this? Do you anticipate making much more money as a small business owner than a salaried doctor? What if you peered into your future and saw that you would be making the same money running your own dental practice (and working extra hard to handle all that comes with business ownership) as you would be clocking in and out of a medical practice? What if you found out you made less as a dental owner than a doctor clocking in and out without the business ownership worries? Many medical specialties can get you past the 500k mark. A successful dental office can as well. But playing the odds, you'd be better off in medicine if money is your main motivation.

3. Money aside, it sounds like you like the surgical aspect of general dentistry compared to the day to day of a family practice doc. So if you couldn't match surgery, you'd prefer general dentistry. Like I said, I reasoned the same to make my decision. BUT. There are many non "surgical" medical specialties that still get to do cool procedures. Even anesthesia can do cool procedures. There are interventional radiologist and cardiologist, etc etc. All of these have sort of a surgical flare to them. And they all pay extremely good. Unbelievably good in some cases. I realize now I was short sited in thinking it was either full-blown surgical specialty or family practice doc. In medicine/dentistry as in life, its not black and white. But the same can be said for dentistry. A periodontist, for example, gets lots of cool dentoalveolar surgical stuff. You just often have to pay a lot for those residencies as compared to medical residencies which are all paid.

I had some other thoughts, but I've forgotten as I've typed this novel. You seem very similar to myself, so I felt like I should share what I've learned looking back over 2 years of dental school. Bottom line, go to dental school if you want to be a dentist. I'm not trying to dissuade you from going to dental school. I am happy with my decision even with my current aspirations of oral surgery. But you have to be happy being a dentist to go to dental school. If you really do want surgery, your best bet is medicine. If you really do want business/entrepreneurship, your best bet something OTHER than medicine OR dental. If you want to be a dentist, then there is no better way to do it then going to dental school. Just remember it requires A LOT of you. Your time, chunks of your life, your energy, money you don't have, etc. All these thoughts, doubts, and questions will come rushing to your mind as a D1 and will crush you unless you are sure dentistry is the life you want.


...and I agree, presitgue is over rated. "Don't start chasing applause and acclaim. That way lies madness.” - Ron Swanson

Hmm, you do bring up some interesting points. I would say I definitely want to go into some career which is biology/human body related. I'm not really a computer guy and I'm not a numbers guy, so going into things like computer science or finance won't really go well with me because I have no interest in those careers. You couldn't pay me enough to write code for the rest of my life!

As for the entrepreneurship aspect, to be an entrepreneur you need have some business which you can grow. I don't really see any business that I can realistically create and grow right now, because I don't have any real marketable skills or products. It seems that the modern day entrepreneur is generally in the tech industry or creates/(invents?) products. I'm not proficient in either, so I figured I might as well just do a job that interests me, something biology/human body related, and that I can grow. As an employee doctor at a hospital, I'll be doing a job that really interests me but I'm not sure it gives me the opportunity to grow as a professional. That's not to say every doctor is an employee or that being an employee is a bad thing. There are entrepreneurial minded dermatologists out there that have done a great job growing a business.

And it's not really about money I would say, but just about having freedom. Realistically a neurosurgeon will make so much money that they will put any dental professional to shame, GP Endo OMFS Pedo no dental specialty has the earning prowess of a highly capable neuro or orthopedic surgeon. And in general most medical specialties will put dentists to shame when it comes to income. If someone was solely in it for the money I would advise them to go Medicine too. But I believe that dental professionals have more freedom with their careers because majority are private practitioners, which means they dictate their work. Can't really put a $ value on that.

Overall, yes I do want to be a dentist. 100%. But I don't want to only be a clinician, I want to be more than that. If that makes any sense.
 
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753698

Last and probably most controversial point: do NOT go to a case-based or problem-based learning school or whatever they are calling them these days. To learn those hard medical sciences you need to be really taught them, ideally with something closely resembling medical school curriculum. We have seen some absolute disasters coming out of those schools, just not prepared at all. I’m not saying it’s every single student coming from there, but if I see an app with LECOM on it that will be filed immediately in the trash unless the CBSE something insane like over 90.

The best shot anyone has at OMS is grinding as hard as possible in an evnvironment that supports doing as well as possible on the CBSE with a strong medicine emphasis and spending ideally 5 weeks externing.
Thanks for the advice. I'll definitely be on the lookout for the different teaching structures in the different D schools. I've read that med based curriculum are a huge advantage when studying for the CBSE.

Would you happen to know which schools have med-based curriculums?
 
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What the heck is going on here? This thread is getting out of control.

Three points:
1) If implants + exodontia are what intrigue you the most about OMFS, please don't pursue it.
2) Family physicians work with their hands all the time. On my family med rotation I did many DREs.
3) "Not necessarily wanting to work primarily in a hospital" is not the right attitude to enter OMFS applications with, let alone dental school. Sure, maybe as a 5th or 6th year resident you can be like "Screw it, I've had enough, private practice here I come". But you are planning things out for 10years down the road.

Honestly, a part of me admires the interest you have in OMFS. Another part of me finds it too naive and uninformed. You type these walls of texts, w/o much knowledge behind it, and its apparent.

Now who's making assumptions?

1. When did I say implants + exodontia are what intrigue me most about OMFS? I said if I didn't get into OMFS then as a general dentist that is something I would like to focus on.
2. Rectal Examinations aren't really something I would be looking forward to as a family physician. In fact, I would count that as a negative. That's definitely not the type of hands on I want haha
3. I'm sure many OMFS prefer working in private practice rather than a hospital. Otherwise there wouldn't be so few academic OMFS.

I'll agree, I'm uninformed. I would appreciate it if you inform me though. I'm open to gaining more knowledge from a practicing OMFS. Don't really think I'm naive though. I can see through people's BS. Atleast I keep it real and say what's on my mind.
 
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