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I think this thread is starting to have the desired effect . . .
Don't you love this thread? It makes every interview season a joy.
Preempting the inevitible rankings thread
- Thread starter IMrankhelp
- Start date
Don't you love this thread? It makes every interview season a joy.
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I think of Duke the same way that I think of Emory. Both great programs, excellent training, top notch faculty and research/fellowship prospects. But they think much more highly of themselves than anybody else does.
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Actually, you're agreeing completely with what I, jdh and instate all said about Duke. But they definitely act like their s*** don't stink.
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I think we are all on the same page about Duke. But, for a program that didn't fill last year, it has been surprising how picky Duke continues to be. There were a lot of people in my residency class who didn't get interviews at Duke for cardiology but got Cleveland, Hopkins, MGH, The Brigham, Penn etc.
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Dude, it's not like we said, "Oh man, Duke's really let itself go. I'd rather hit a community program in Detroit or Houston before I'd go to Duke"
It simply doesn't have the pull that it once did, and this is evident by a couple of embarrassing years for them. The talent would rather go to a major city - no hard feelings but that also trickles into who they can recruit for faculty and who they can get to stay for instance.
And, also, I know it could be hard to believe that there is more than one organ in the body, and lots of us go into something besides cardio
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Fresh blood, "new" perspective here. Giving Duke and the Triangle (can't limit one's view to Durham only, the Triangle is a great place to live) the respect they deserve. Also trying to expand the list to outside the top 30 to satisfy people who wanted a list outside the top 30.
Put together using US News ('04, '05, '06, '11, '12), 2010 NIH funding, SDN bias, and tons of personal bias and random picks as I felt like it towards the bottom.
Big 8 Still Reigns
Top 4
1. BWH
2. MGH
3. Hopkins
4. UCSF
Bottom 4
5. Duke
6. Penn
7. Columbia
8. Michigan
The Rest of the Top 20
9. UWash
10. WashU
11. Stanford
12. UCLA
13. UTSW
14. Vanderbilt
15. Northwestern
16. Chicago
17. Cornell
18. Yale
19. Mayo
20. BID
The Rest of the Top 50
21. UPMC
22. UAB
23. UNC
24. Baylor
25. OHSU
26. UCSD
27. Wisconsin
28. Colorado
29. UVA
30. Emory
31. Iowa
32. Case Western
33. Ohio State
34. Mount Sinai
35. NYU
36. Indiana
37. Minnesota
38. Dartmouth
39. Rochester
40. Brown
41. Maryland
42. BU
43. UF-Gainsville
44. Temple
45. Jackson Memorial
46. AECOM-Montefiore
47. UMass
48. UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson
49. Utah
50. JHU-Bayview
3rd Quartile
51. Jefferson
52. UC-Irvine
53. USC
54. UIC
55. UC-Davis
56. Cedars-Sinai
57. Vermont
58. Tufts
59. Rush
60. Vermont
61. Tufts
62. Tulane
63. MUSC
64. Penn State
65. Wake Forest
66. GHSU
67. VCU
68. UT-Houston
69. LSU
70. Kansas
71. Eastern Virginia
72. Arkansas
73. Wayne State
74. George Washington
75. Georgetown
Bottom Quartile
76. UConn
77. Tennesee
78. Louisville
79. Kentucky
80. Oklahoma
81. Hawaii
82. New Mexico
83. Cleveland Clinic
84. USF
85. SUNY Downstate
86. West Virginia
87. Mississippi
88. Drexel
89. SUNY Buffalo
90. Loyola Chicago
91. Loma Linda
92. University of Missouri-Columbia
93. St. Louis University
94. SUNY Upstate
94. UMDNJ-NJMS
95. Rowan-Cooper
96. Arizona
97. Michigan State
98. NY Medical College
99. Texas Tech
100. Puerto Rico
Have fun.
Put together using US News ('04, '05, '06, '11, '12), 2010 NIH funding, SDN bias, and tons of personal bias and random picks as I felt like it towards the bottom.
Big 8 Still Reigns
Top 4
1. BWH
2. MGH
3. Hopkins
4. UCSF
Bottom 4
5. Duke
6. Penn
7. Columbia
8. Michigan
The Rest of the Top 20
9. UWash
10. WashU
11. Stanford
12. UCLA
13. UTSW
14. Vanderbilt
15. Northwestern
16. Chicago
17. Cornell
18. Yale
19. Mayo
20. BID
The Rest of the Top 50
21. UPMC
22. UAB
23. UNC
24. Baylor
25. OHSU
26. UCSD
27. Wisconsin
28. Colorado
29. UVA
30. Emory
31. Iowa
32. Case Western
33. Ohio State
34. Mount Sinai
35. NYU
36. Indiana
37. Minnesota
38. Dartmouth
39. Rochester
40. Brown
41. Maryland
42. BU
43. UF-Gainsville
44. Temple
45. Jackson Memorial
46. AECOM-Montefiore
47. UMass
48. UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson
49. Utah
50. JHU-Bayview
3rd Quartile
51. Jefferson
52. UC-Irvine
53. USC
54. UIC
55. UC-Davis
56. Cedars-Sinai
57. Vermont
58. Tufts
59. Rush
60. Vermont
61. Tufts
62. Tulane
63. MUSC
64. Penn State
65. Wake Forest
66. GHSU
67. VCU
68. UT-Houston
69. LSU
70. Kansas
71. Eastern Virginia
72. Arkansas
73. Wayne State
74. George Washington
75. Georgetown
Bottom Quartile
76. UConn
77. Tennesee
78. Louisville
79. Kentucky
80. Oklahoma
81. Hawaii
82. New Mexico
83. Cleveland Clinic
84. USF
85. SUNY Downstate
86. West Virginia
87. Mississippi
88. Drexel
89. SUNY Buffalo
90. Loyola Chicago
91. Loma Linda
92. University of Missouri-Columbia
93. St. Louis University
94. SUNY Upstate
94. UMDNJ-NJMS
95. Rowan-Cooper
96. Arizona
97. Michigan State
98. NY Medical College
99. Texas Tech
100. Puerto Rico
Have fun.
Wait a minute...Just how many tiers are there?
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1. jdh...what hath god wrought? (I'll send $5 to whoever can identify that quote without using Teh Googlez.)
2. I like how you listed an entire US territory as if it were a single IM training program.
3. You are so f****ng high that you make docu look like a Nobel Prize winner.
Hopefully I have appropriately derailed this thread.
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C'mon now gutonc, wasn't that THE desired effect?
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👍
Excellent. Very accurate breakdown.
Also, the Brigham absolutely belongs at #1. I'm happy someone else recognizes that.
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There are clearly a few posters this evening who forgot not to smoke the blunt before pushing the post button.
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So... ... ... arbitrary... ...
seems.... reasonable.................
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The hospital was set up to be a specialty clinic. Because of this, it is incredibly fellow driven. The internal medicine department was actually set up after a lot of the fellowships were already in place. That means the autonomy of residents is minimal. On some rotations it sounds as if they are basically an afterthough, along for the ride.
A good rule of thumb- if the IM residency has a lot of autonomy, the clinical experience of the fellowships is probably not that strong. If the fellowship has a ton of clinical experience, then the medicine residency is going to suffer.
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Big 8 Still Reigns
Top 4
1. BWH
2. MGH
3. Hopkins interesting. I disagree but whatever
4. UCSF
Bottom 4
5. Duke
6. Penn
7. Columbia
8. Michigan
The Rest of the Top 20 roughly agree with this tier
9. UWash
10. WashU
11. Stanford
12. UCLA
13. UTSW
14. Vanderbilt
15. Northwestern
16. Chicago
17. Cornell
18. Yale
19. Mayo
20. BID
The Rest of the Top 50
21. UPMC
22. UAB
23. UNC
24. Baylor
25. OHSU
26. UCSD
27. Wisconsin
28. Colorado would not put them in this tier, definitely not above UVA and emory
29. UVA
30. Emory
31. Iowa
32. Case Western
33. Ohio State too high
34. Mount Sinai too low
35. NYU
36. Indiana
37. Minnesota
38. Dartmouth
39. Rochester too high
40. Brown
41. Maryland
42. BU
43. UF-Gainsville
44. Temple not even close
45. Jackson Memorial
46. AECOM-Montefiore nope
47. UMass too high
48. UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson
49. Utah
50. JHU-Bayview
3rd Quartile
51. Jefferson
52. UC-Irvine
53. USC
54. UIC
55. UC-Davis
56. Cedars-Sinai
57. Vermont
58. Tufts
59. Rush
60. Vermont wow, so good they get 2 spots (57 too)?
61. Tufts
62. Tulane
63. MUSC a smidge too high
64. Penn State
65. Wake Forest too low
66. GHSU WAAAAY too high
67. VCU too low. I'd put them on tier with Jefferson's medicine (but not much else)
68. UT-Houston
69. LSU
70. Kansas
71. Eastern Virginia shouldn't even be on the list and not in the same breath as Wake forrest and VCU
72. Arkansas
73. Wayne State
74. George Washington
75. Georgetown
Bottom Quartile
76. UConn
77. Tennesee
78. Louisville
79. Kentucky
80. Oklahoma
81. Hawaii
82. New Mexico
83. Cleveland Clinic
84. USF
85. SUNY Downstate
86. West Virginia
87. Mississippi
88. Drexel
89. SUNY Buffalo
90. Loyola Chicago
91. Loma Linda
92. University of Missouri-Columbia
93. St. Louis University
94. SUNY Upstate
94. UMDNJ-NJMS
95. Rowan-Cooper
96. Arizona
97. Michigan State
98. NY Medical College
99. Texas Tech
100. Puerto Rico
Top 4
1. BWH
2. MGH
3. Hopkins interesting. I disagree but whatever
4. UCSF
Bottom 4
5. Duke
6. Penn
7. Columbia
8. Michigan
The Rest of the Top 20 roughly agree with this tier
9. UWash
10. WashU
11. Stanford
12. UCLA
13. UTSW
14. Vanderbilt
15. Northwestern
16. Chicago
17. Cornell
18. Yale
19. Mayo
20. BID
The Rest of the Top 50
21. UPMC
22. UAB
23. UNC
24. Baylor
25. OHSU
26. UCSD
27. Wisconsin
28. Colorado would not put them in this tier, definitely not above UVA and emory
29. UVA
30. Emory
31. Iowa
32. Case Western
33. Ohio State too high
34. Mount Sinai too low
35. NYU
36. Indiana
37. Minnesota
38. Dartmouth
39. Rochester too high
40. Brown
41. Maryland
42. BU
43. UF-Gainsville
44. Temple not even close
45. Jackson Memorial
46. AECOM-Montefiore nope
47. UMass too high
48. UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson
49. Utah
50. JHU-Bayview
3rd Quartile
51. Jefferson
52. UC-Irvine
53. USC
54. UIC
55. UC-Davis
56. Cedars-Sinai
57. Vermont
58. Tufts
59. Rush
60. Vermont wow, so good they get 2 spots (57 too)?
61. Tufts
62. Tulane
63. MUSC a smidge too high
64. Penn State
65. Wake Forest too low
66. GHSU WAAAAY too high
67. VCU too low. I'd put them on tier with Jefferson's medicine (but not much else)
68. UT-Houston
69. LSU
70. Kansas
71. Eastern Virginia shouldn't even be on the list and not in the same breath as Wake forrest and VCU
72. Arkansas
73. Wayne State
74. George Washington
75. Georgetown
Bottom Quartile
76. UConn
77. Tennesee
78. Louisville
79. Kentucky
80. Oklahoma
81. Hawaii
82. New Mexico
83. Cleveland Clinic
84. USF
85. SUNY Downstate
86. West Virginia
87. Mississippi
88. Drexel
89. SUNY Buffalo
90. Loyola Chicago
91. Loma Linda
92. University of Missouri-Columbia
93. St. Louis University
94. SUNY Upstate
94. UMDNJ-NJMS
95. Rowan-Cooper
96. Arizona
97. Michigan State
98. NY Medical College
99. Texas Tech
100. Puerto Rico
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1. Program I weasel into
2-∞. Others
😉
2-∞. Others
😉
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Bah! I think it's a really tough sell to say that Hopkins isn't considered the king of academic internal medicine in this country.
Though, I think you can argue that B&W probably the best place to do IM residency, all things considered from the elite programs.
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I'll fully accept my home institution (MCW) isn't in the top 20, 30, or 40, but we're definitely in the top 100 from everything I understand (and the scuttlebutt I've seen on SDN).
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I see. Then how do places like MGH and Hopkins manage to be so great at training both residents and fellows?
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For clinical training, these places arent perfect. They are good because you see a lot of the newest gadgets and are surrounded by some of the smartest fellows and attendings. But for specialties where volume is important, these places often suffer.
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In No Particular Order
1. Brown-great clinical training, very happy residents. Not an academic powerhouse, but solid.
2. Dartmouth-literally a hidden gem. If it wasn't in NH, it would be one tough place to get into.
3. Boston U-Already a tough place to get into. But really the pesky little brother to the Big 3 HMS programs.
4. Rush-Another pesky little brother. Great new hospital, with a solid match list.
5. Jefferson-Behnd Penn, the 2nd best program in Philly. Great population and solid match.
6. Wisconsin-Already a well known program, but people tend to forget them. Madison is a + or -. But possibly the best PD in the country. Also an amazing match list.
7. Maryland-Damn you Hopkins. Innovative program with a good match.
8. VCU-I really just started to hear about this program last year. But some stud applicants had some rave reviews.
9.Case Western-Cleveland sucks Drew. But, they have a solid program, a new cancer center which is pretty sweet. The PD is very interactive.
10. Ohio State-Another Ohioooo program. Lets admit it, no one wants to go to Ohio. But OSU has a solid match list and a friendly place to work.
Obviously, a lot of programs are great. Not everyone will get the top 20 interview. I was pretty heartbroken intially by not getting some of those interviews. But I was fortunate to interview at some "top 25/30" but you don't lose much by the above programs. Medicine is definitely getting more competitve, but it is still a buyers market. Apply and interview broadly, you may be pleasantly surprised.
Full disclosure: I'm at Rush. The best programs I interviewed at were: Emory, Mayo, UVa and Baylor. Location was a big factor for me. I decided to go for the little brother. I'm happy with my decision. I will definitely have to push a bit harder for a strong H/O or cards program, but I think the decision was the right one. Good luck to you all!
-DVN
1. Brown-great clinical training, very happy residents. Not an academic powerhouse, but solid.
2. Dartmouth-literally a hidden gem. If it wasn't in NH, it would be one tough place to get into.
3. Boston U-Already a tough place to get into. But really the pesky little brother to the Big 3 HMS programs.
4. Rush-Another pesky little brother. Great new hospital, with a solid match list.
5. Jefferson-Behnd Penn, the 2nd best program in Philly. Great population and solid match.
6. Wisconsin-Already a well known program, but people tend to forget them. Madison is a + or -. But possibly the best PD in the country. Also an amazing match list.
7. Maryland-Damn you Hopkins. Innovative program with a good match.
8. VCU-I really just started to hear about this program last year. But some stud applicants had some rave reviews.
9.Case Western-Cleveland sucks Drew. But, they have a solid program, a new cancer center which is pretty sweet. The PD is very interactive.
10. Ohio State-Another Ohioooo program. Lets admit it, no one wants to go to Ohio. But OSU has a solid match list and a friendly place to work.
Obviously, a lot of programs are great. Not everyone will get the top 20 interview. I was pretty heartbroken intially by not getting some of those interviews. But I was fortunate to interview at some "top 25/30" but you don't lose much by the above programs. Medicine is definitely getting more competitve, but it is still a buyers market. Apply and interview broadly, you may be pleasantly surprised.
Full disclosure: I'm at Rush. The best programs I interviewed at were: Emory, Mayo, UVa and Baylor. Location was a big factor for me. I decided to go for the little brother. I'm happy with my decision. I will definitely have to push a bit harder for a strong H/O or cards program, but I think the decision was the right one. Good luck to you all!
-DVN
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NYU and MSSM are tiers ahead of GW and Georgetown. MSSM is arguably a top 30, NYU is not far behind IMO. Georgetown has some good street credit though.
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Mt Sinai > NYU >> GT~ GW
Mt sinai and NYU are both around top 30 (ie a big name program but not top tier)
GT and GW are mid tier programs.
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I think when people hear that MSSM and NYU around a top 30, they think it is not to competitive. MSSM and NYU are prob top 20 in terms of competitiveness. BU moves up there as well IMO.
Unfortunately, I'm probably only stirring the pot by posting these, but I figure they belong in here. This season, they played NO role in which programs I decided to apply to, or how I decided on my Rank Order List. However, I imagine a few people would be curious:
I want to go into academics and am looking to match into a research-heavy program with a great reputation, and I don't mind living someplace "awful" (i.e. not the coasts) if it means I can match into a great program. So, places like Mayo, Dartmouth, Baylor, UTSW, WashU, etc.
Any other places that are really top-tier training-wise but may get short-shrifted by applicants on account of their location?
Any other places that are really top-tier training-wise but may get short-shrifted by applicants on account of their location?
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Take a look at UAB.
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Dartmouth is gorgeous, but it's in the middle of F-bombin' nowhere.
Agree with the UAB rec, also Vandy might be considered "less desirable" by some.
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So this is the second time I've heard mention of the PD at Wisconsin - I received an interview invite there and have been doing a little bit of research into the school myself. I know the PD won the Parker J. Palmer award, but that's not really unique to him - can anyone shed a little light as to what makes the PD so great?
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Amazing beard.
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In short: amazing teacher, proactive with resident curriculum/education, and strong advocate for career directions.
Another I think I liked about Wisconsin was the size. I think the class is 22 or so. My class is 33 interns and God knows how many prelims.
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Nashville is pretty awesome IMO. If you don't mind not being on a coast, it's a great city. Birmingham on the other hand has its own charm, but I don't think I could find a good samosa place there 😀
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I interviewed 7 years ago, not long after the 80h work week was put in place and programs were still trying to figure out how to deal with it. One question I asked every PD I got to meet with during interview season was "what changes do you see in the program in the next 5 years?". Most PDs said something about "maybe we'll add nightfloat, we'll focus more on teaching X or Y with more/less electives, etc."
When I asked Bennett that question, he spent the next 30 minutes outlining the 1, 3, 5, 10 and 20 year strategic plans that he had already started implementing. The only other 3 PDs who had answers that were even half that good were the PD at the program where I matched (my #1, he has since stepped down after 20+ years as a PD), Mark Babyatsky at Mt. Sinai (since promoted out of that position) and SDN's own aPD.
Plus...that sweet beard.
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Exactly! 👍
There are TWO different kinds of the middle of nowhere, the ****hole kind and the awesome kind. Dartmouth is the awesome kind. 😀
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Is this all based on research dollars or exceptional clinical training?
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It's based on a complex scoring system that takes into account whether you went there, how many of your friends/family went there, what the previously existing groupthink ranking of the program is, and the quality of the PD's facial hair.
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It's based on a 5th of cheap blended whiskey and 6 lines of coke cut a little too aggressively.
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.
Last edited:
This just made my head explode. You're probably right.
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You weren't really expecting banker coke were you?
Frankly, biker coke is too good for you.
