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That's pretty rare and not a generalization most people make about California. But I do agree with earthquakes
Stanford vs. Harvard vs. Penn
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That's pretty rare and not a generalization most people make about California. But I do agree with earthquakes
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WHAT?! Just a quick google maps search says Palo Alto is 33 miles from the heart of San Francisco. With traffic that's an 45 minutes- 1 hour. I don't know what you're talking about. It's more like an hour on the Caltrain. It took me 1 hour on the BART/Caltrain to get from the airport to Palo Alto...and the airport isn't even really close to the city at all.
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Thanks for the responses! I understand how lucky I am and hope I'm not being whiny- just wanted some advice. As soon as I decide where I'm going I'll relinquish my other spots and you can all bid- proceeds going to Haiti 🙂
To answer a few questions:
-Accepted NP. Not a basic science person by any stretch of the imagination. I hated chemistry and hope to never hold a pipette again.
-I grew up in Boston and agree its a great city. I think that Philly is comparable, no? What it lacks in safety maybe it makes up by being more affordable than Boston?
I am intrigued with Stanford's low average debt but for someone who probably won't qualify for financial aid, I'm not sure if it would help my debt- which will be a lot. Also, I feel like Stanford kids are pushed into research and I'm more into clinical stuff.
I am worried that HMS might be full of super competitive nerds (like my orgo class in college) which terrifies me.
The thing I liked about Penn is how enthusiastic it's students are. But they did seem very homogeneous and privileged. Plus the international opportunities didn't blow me away.
To answer a few questions:
-Accepted NP. Not a basic science person by any stretch of the imagination. I hated chemistry and hope to never hold a pipette again.
-I grew up in Boston and agree its a great city. I think that Philly is comparable, no? What it lacks in safety maybe it makes up by being more affordable than Boston?
I am intrigued with Stanford's low average debt but for someone who probably won't qualify for financial aid, I'm not sure if it would help my debt- which will be a lot. Also, I feel like Stanford kids are pushed into research and I'm more into clinical stuff.
I am worried that HMS might be full of super competitive nerds (like my orgo class in college) which terrifies me.
The thing I liked about Penn is how enthusiastic it's students are. But they did seem very homogeneous and privileged. Plus the international opportunities didn't blow me away.
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Philly is pretty expensive too. My bf lives in a 2/1 apartment (bare minimum living) and it's $1700 without utilities. I'm sure there are more affordable places but I think both Philly and Boston are outrageous when it comes to cost of living.
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HMS and stanford are pass/fail 😎 but the only way you might get a feel for the competitive aspect is to go to revisit and see for yourself. (or to make other arrangements to visit since it appears like you won't be making it to any revisits?)
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Boston is more expensive than Philly. Live with roommates and you can pay as low as $500/month. I pay $800/month and I have a 400 sqft bedroom (yes, that's just my bedroom). You can get luxury lofts with parking on broad street for $1200/month. They are teeming with Drexel/Temple med students.
On average though, Philadelphia is a cheaper city than Boston.
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I think HMS isn't really as competitive as you think. And, considering Stanford and Penn are basically in the same league as Harvard... they wouldn't be too far off.
Stanford Financial Aid rocks, and I know they give a sense that their heavy basic science research oriented but it's not necessarily the case. I don't think I'll qualify for aid either...and the Med Scholars program + the TA option ($7000 for 10 weeks of TAing with maybe a 5 hours work week committment is ungodly) are unbeatable if you're not getting any specific grant money and want to reduce you're debt load.
I met a student there pursuing a degree in epidemiology on his 5th year. Another was a community health concentrator and was going to spend his 5th year setting up free clinics in Eastern Europe. Stanford basically just wants you to do what you're passionate about, whether it's serving the third world or engineering a new biomedical product.
I'd still personally go to Harvard if I had those options.
Most professional schools in the US are going to be disproportionately full of the privileged. This is just not a country that prioritizes providing early and sustained educational opportunities to the lower classes, at least since the Reagen revolution. (see http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/17/social-immobility-climbin_n_501788.html)
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I guess I must drive faster than I thought 😳...It doesn't take me more than 30 mins and I go about once a month.
I am 99% sure that I will be going to HMS NP, and I can assure you that I am not competitive nor am I very nerdy. I am a fashionable, artsy, I dance, I am into sports, go to clubs, coffee, movies, shows - love hanging out with both nerds and non-nerds alike. HMS students I met during the interview day seemed similar to myself, and HMS students that I know are also multifaceted. I dunno about the competition - but it is P/F, and why would you be a gunner when you are already (arguably) at the top of the game?
Go with Penn or Stanford if you need to be away from home, or if their locations appeal to you. Philly is a lot cheaper than Boston (apartments are usually half the price), but Palo Alto rent seems to be comparable.
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Please name some apartment buildings because I haven't found any one bedrooms (that aren't in dangerous neighborhoods or falling apart) for less than $1800-$2000.
My boyfriend does live with a roommate and honestly he's a block away from a really scary neighborhood and his apartment is nothing to brag about. That was the cheapest place they found that wouldn't require them to get self-defense training.
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isnt that part of the definition of a gunner!?? lol.
i doubt hms would be super competitive. after all, its not like they only go after the 4.0 40's. if i learned anything from applying, its that most schools take ppl from all sorts of backgrounds. if they only took the gunners, you'd have a class full of dermatologists!!!
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OP, last year I was deciding between Penn, Harvard and UCSF (almost the same) while living in Boston during my time off.
I suppose I have a "vested interest" because I ended up at one of those schools, but it seems to me you should also talk to people who have faced similar choices to see what they think of the decision a year later.
Regardless, I'm not going to proselytize about Penn - I'll leave that to Suite 100. PM me if you have questions/would like to talk. And congrats on the acceptances.
I suppose I have a "vested interest" because I ended up at one of those schools, but it seems to me you should also talk to people who have faced similar choices to see what they think of the decision a year later.
Regardless, I'm not going to proselytize about Penn - I'll leave that to Suite 100. PM me if you have questions/would like to talk. And congrats on the acceptances.
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OP, I think first you need to pick a coast, then everything else will fall into place 
😉
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Said no thank you to Stanford. Now between Harvard and Penn.
Should 25,000K a year from Penn make this decision obvious? Because I'm still torn.
Should 25,000K a year from Penn make this decision obvious? Because I'm still torn.
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I would choose Harvard and never look back. You have great options, but I can't see how anyone can pass up an opportunity at Harvard unless you have some extremely compelling reason like someone in the family that you need to be around to take care of or a significant other. Although you don't want to pick up a pipet again, no other institution can come remotely close to the overall breadth and expertise of research conducted there. In terms of possible clinical exposure: MGH, Boston Children's, Dana Farber, Brigham, Beth Israel - it's like being a kid in a candy store. The city itself is awesome. You're within driving distance to NY in case you get bored of Massachusetts. The list goes on and on
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100k is a lot, and given the two options I'd personally choose Penn. I'm gonna point out some obvious difference and questions to ask.
I think Harvard affords you certain opportunities and prestige that Penn doesn't. Some people need this, I personally don't. I think you'll get a great education at either. Their curriculums are different, which one did you like more? At the end of the day, you can't go wrong.
Did you attend second looks? Which one did you click better with?
I'm assuming your NP. That's almost entirely PBL. Penn is more lecture/small group mix. And it's 1.5 years pre-clinical (well-established too, they've been doing this for 10 years).
Harvard's hospitals and affiliates are better than Penn's (save CHOP, which I think is unbeatable). HUP is nice and a great hospital, but it's not Mass General.
Are you a Boston or a Philadelphia kind of person?
And a selfish question: Just out of curiosity did you go to Stanford second look? Haha, any impression on whether or not the waitlist will move? 😀
FYI, harvard's NP program is not "almost entirely PBL." when i interviewed there, i got the sense that it was the same mix of lecture and small group sessions that most schools are offering now. don't know about penn.
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to answer the questions:
-didn't get to go to any previews because im out of the country. gahhhhh- i really wish i could have. so i can't tell you about stanford, only that i freed up 1 spot 🙂
-i have no compelling reason to be in philly, only that im from boston and might like to explore a new city.
-my reason to choose penn would be that i got the sense that kids are happier there. i was hard pressed to find a single harvard student who raved about the school whereas the penn kids were lining up to glow about it. and why shouldn't med school be fun- even if it means going to a minorly less prestigious school?? and the administration is clearly wayyyyy more supportive than at harvard. and 100k is nice. but its not decision making nice like a full ride would be.
-harvard is, well harvard. and i get the sense that because it doesn't have aoa or preclinical grades, its less competitive than penn. this i heard from a med student at harvard who has a twin at penn. and i think it probably improves stress levels a lot. can anyone comment on student atmosphere at harvard? why aren't people excited about school?
so basically, im very torn, even more so because im not in the country and can't go to preview, talk to people etc. hence my plea for help from the interwebs.
i dont want to base my decision off a gestalt feeling from and interview day. im trying to figure out which makes more sense.
-didn't get to go to any previews because im out of the country. gahhhhh- i really wish i could have. so i can't tell you about stanford, only that i freed up 1 spot 🙂
-i have no compelling reason to be in philly, only that im from boston and might like to explore a new city.
-my reason to choose penn would be that i got the sense that kids are happier there. i was hard pressed to find a single harvard student who raved about the school whereas the penn kids were lining up to glow about it. and why shouldn't med school be fun- even if it means going to a minorly less prestigious school?? and the administration is clearly wayyyyy more supportive than at harvard. and 100k is nice. but its not decision making nice like a full ride would be.
-harvard is, well harvard. and i get the sense that because it doesn't have aoa or preclinical grades, its less competitive than penn. this i heard from a med student at harvard who has a twin at penn. and i think it probably improves stress levels a lot. can anyone comment on student atmosphere at harvard? why aren't people excited about school?
so basically, im very torn, even more so because im not in the country and can't go to preview, talk to people etc. hence my plea for help from the interwebs.
i dont want to base my decision off a gestalt feeling from and interview day. im trying to figure out which makes more sense.
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How many students from Harvard have you interacted with? I ask because I know interview day sucks (I can count the number of current students I met on interview day on one hand...). The interview day was troubling for me because I think current students are one of the best ways to gauge a school, and I was disappointed that more students were not involved with interview day.
But in any case, I went to revisit and had a blast. It seemed like the current HMS students were a really great group that loved to have fun together (you can look up videos of the FABRIC show they put on as an example
). At revisit we met not only a bunch of first and second years, but we also got to meet some 3rd and 4th years. They talked a bit about life on the wards, which was super helpful. It was great to hear that there was a hospital to suit pretty much whatever learning style you like best.
At revisit I also got the chance to interact with faculty/administration *outside* of the admissions office staff. It's like night and day...I'm not sure the admissions office really understands that other schools work much harder than they do to make prospectives feel welcome 😛
But anyway, the other offices we came into contact with during revisit were spectacular. The financial aid office was incredibly supportive. One of their staff sat with me individually for about a half an hour to run through various scenarios of what my financial aid could look like when my sister graduates college, when my parents incomes fluctuate, etc. The HST faculty/advisors/staff in particular are also fantastic. I've already had some really great conversations with a few of these HST faculty, who have been more than willing to take time away from saving the world with their super cool research to talk to me - a lowly prospective! I don't have too much experience with NP, but the Society system ensures that you'll have some great mentorship from faculty advisors who enjoy working with students.
I think Harvard is probably more difficult to navigate than Penn, since the faculty network is SO extensive at Harvard and there is a lot of bureaucracy. But I think the advantage to being a part of such a huge enterprise lies primarily in being able to seek out almost any kind of opportunity and find a mentor who is desperately passionate about it too.
Whatever you choose, you'll be just fine. You should really, really make an effort to visit both again if at all possible and to meet as many people as you can.
But in any case, I went to revisit and had a blast. It seemed like the current HMS students were a really great group that loved to have fun together (you can look up videos of the FABRIC show they put on as an example
). At revisit we met not only a bunch of first and second years, but we also got to meet some 3rd and 4th years. They talked a bit about life on the wards, which was super helpful. It was great to hear that there was a hospital to suit pretty much whatever learning style you like best.At revisit I also got the chance to interact with faculty/administration *outside* of the admissions office staff. It's like night and day...I'm not sure the admissions office really understands that other schools work much harder than they do to make prospectives feel welcome 😛
But anyway, the other offices we came into contact with during revisit were spectacular. The financial aid office was incredibly supportive. One of their staff sat with me individually for about a half an hour to run through various scenarios of what my financial aid could look like when my sister graduates college, when my parents incomes fluctuate, etc. The HST faculty/advisors/staff in particular are also fantastic. I've already had some really great conversations with a few of these HST faculty, who have been more than willing to take time away from saving the world with their super cool research to talk to me - a lowly prospective! I don't have too much experience with NP, but the Society system ensures that you'll have some great mentorship from faculty advisors who enjoy working with students.
I think Harvard is probably more difficult to navigate than Penn, since the faculty network is SO extensive at Harvard and there is a lot of bureaucracy. But I think the advantage to being a part of such a huge enterprise lies primarily in being able to seek out almost any kind of opportunity and find a mentor who is desperately passionate about it too.
Whatever you choose, you'll be just fine. You should really, really make an effort to visit both again if at all possible and to meet as many people as you can.
I agree completely.
I go to Penn, and I picked Penn over Harvard. I could not be happier with my decision. I love the way our curriculum is structured, and since curriculum 2000 (the 1.5 year curriculum) is going into something like it's 11th iteration, I can tell you that it is almost perfectly optimized. The faculty are really happy with it, and the students are thrilled about it.
We just had Penn Preview, and at first I was a bit surprised by the fact that people were concerned about preclinical grades. Don't get me wrong, when I was in their position, I was just as concerned, but now that I'm here, I've almost forgotten that we have preclinical grades. The first six months is P/F, and then we switched to H/P/F in January. People started studying more, but not that much more, and I think most people here have the attitude that being happy and having a life is just as important as doing well in school. We have tons and tons of fun, and we are learning soo much. Also, we are not graded against each other. There is a fixed cutoff score for honors (89.5%), and if not enough people get honors, they will lower the cutoff to allow more people to get honors. They haven't had to do this yet, because on the first exam of Mod 2 something like 40-50% got honors, and in our second class of Mod 2, something like 60% got honors.
I live in West Philly (and not really that close to campus, out on 47th), and I just love it. I feel really safe (there is a Penn cop on every corner out to 43rd, and after that University City security has officers on every corner out to like 50th or something. Philly is a pretty phenomenal city, there are a billion things to do, and the food is outrageously good (someone here mentioned Jose Garces, the Iron Chef who owns 5 restaurants in Philly, he is my hero, go to Village Whiskey, best burgers ever!!).
Anyway, good luck with your decision. The financial aid package Penn is giving you sounds nice!
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I think that it's a general consensus that Harvard's interview day leaves a lot to be desired and that it is probably not a good representation of life at HMS. However, the vibe you got from your interview day at Penn is truly genuine. It's not anything put on to impress applicants; we actually are that happy. Of course it's not 100% rainbows and sunshine but it comes pretty close. The atmosphere is very relaxed and has remained that way into mod 2 with the addition of honors to the grading. At first, I too was skeptical of this but it really is true. I've said this before - because of the way the curriculum is structured with its emphasis on team work, things are absolutely not competitive. I will repeat for anyone who ever thinks about this because I think this question comes up a lot: IT IS NOT COMPETITIVE. The stress level has probably increased some, but that is because the material has picked up in pace and complexity (but still completely doable). I personally think Mod 2 has been awesome and in many ways like it better academically than Mod 1, which was also awesome. Bottom line is that you will absolutely pass each class, and with exam averages in the 88-89 range, you are likely to get honors as well. It's not a big deal. And you don't have to spend every moment of your life studying for this to happen.
As a side note, I've actually enjoyed the move from Boston to Philly.
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Penn. 1.5 pre-clinicals, you've got $25k a year there, and while it's a close call, Philly sports fans aren't as bad as Boston fans.
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boston fans have never booed santa claus
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But Philly fans have never pulled for the Red Sox. Or Tom Brady. Or any of the Patriots. Ugh.
Although they have pulled for the Flyers. Like I said, it's a very close call for how horrible your local sports environment would be.
you are full of sports-fan win. where are you from?
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Born in Pittsburgh, early childhood in New Jersey, lived in South Carolina since.
I'm guessing from the Manhattan love shown in other school threads that you're from New York? That would explain the appreciation for Boston/Philly hate. My Cornell-Sinai interview trip was my first visit to NYC since I was five. Cool city, my cousin's husband is on faculty at Columbia so they live close by, great schools - but after years of being away from the Northeast, I just can't handle the cold. Props to you guys for handling those winters. Excited for Sinai?
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I've been curious about your 1.5 year curriculum. Do you essentially finish the basic sciences in 1.5 years instead of two? I guess what I'm mostly curious about is how in the world are you guys able to pull it off? We have a regular 2 yr basic science curriculum at OSU and I'm barely keeping my head above water. Do you guys have summer classes between m1 and m2?
OP, I'd say go for the money... I know this is hard to believe when you're a premed, but the names really really truly do not make a difference in the long run. People might argue that harvard takes its own for certain specialties, and others will disagree, etc. At the end, it really won't matter. They are both great schools with great match lists (though the match lists really don't mean anything).
You cannot go wrong with either choice, so just make the choice that gives you the opportunity to graduate with less debt. You will thank yourself in 4 years.
i'm originally from FL but grew up in MA. moved to NYC 6 years ago. i'm genetically a yankee fan-- not my fault. other than that i root for all the FL teams. and yeah, i'm super psyched for sinai-- mostly because i'm only moving about a 10 minute walk from where i live now 😀
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location and cost are two important factors, but the best school would be Harvard from these three.
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I've thought he was a douchebag from day 1. The guy can ball, though, so hopefully he keeps himself out of trouble from now on. Any more creepiness and I'm down for kicking him to the curb.
The first summer (and breaks in general, I believe) is shorter at schools with condensed curricula. From what I understand, the material is streamlined and redundancies are cut out so that it can fit in the more compact 1.5 year schedule. Getting into the hospital and studying for Step 1 will ensure you cover anything you may not have in class. Condensed curricula = win.
Another way that Penn condenses the curriculum is that, in our first six months (when we're doing anatomy, histology, physio, epi, embryo, genetics, micro, immuno, and biochem), we don't do one class at a time. We typically do 3 classes at a time. This is really really good, because they make it so that more intense classes are paired with less intense classes (so one block we had anatomy, epi, and immuno. anatomy was a lot of work, epi was a joke, and immuno was relatively well-taught and straightforward) This enables them to spread classes like anatomy over 3 months instead of condensing it down to 6 weeks, which would have been horrible.
As you said, they're also fantastic at streamlining the curriculum so that we cover the most important stuff. That way we're not killing ourselves to try and learn a lot of the stuff that we'd forget anyway.
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