The Grad School Thread

[Glammyre]

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Thanks! I forgot to post an update.
1) I can totally still apply for the dual program. When I mentioned being surprised because of the wording on the program site and in the handbook, the director just sort of smiled and shrugged...so who knows. Working on application stuff now.
2) They can't guarantee it, but historically all the dual degree students get graduate assistantships, so tuition waiver (for PhD classes, sadly does not apply to vet school 😛) and a stipend. It isn't a huge amount but it is something, and I am also planning on doing clinical work when I can to bring in some more money and keep up with those skillz.
3) I'll get to double dip on up to 32 of the required total 48 credit hours, so that's pretty neat

So all in all I'm pretty excited/still scared/realizing I'm adding on another 3 years of school but working with some of my favorite people on research I'm really passionate about in a town I love doesn't seem too bad

Congratulations!

 

[Frozenshades]

Thanks! I forgot to post an update.
1) I can totally still apply for the dual program. When I mentioned being surprised because of the wording on the program site and in the handbook, the director just sort of smiled and shrugged...so who knows. Working on application stuff now.
2) They can't guarantee it, but historically all the dual degree students get graduate assistantships, so tuition waiver (for PhD classes, sadly does not apply to vet school 😛) and a stipend. It isn't a huge amount but it is something, and I am also planning on doing clinical work when I can to bring in some more money and keep up with those skillz.
3) I'll get to double dip on up to 32 of the required total 48 credit hours, so that's pretty neat

So all in all I'm pretty excited/still scared/realizing I'm adding on another 3 years of school but working with some of my favorite people on research I'm really passionate about in a town I love doesn't seem too bad

Your PhD is 48 total credits? Huh.

They want 90 here (including research credits) and vet school transfers 12. I needed some classes (there's a minimum, it can't just be all research credits), so I took 24 additional hours of classes including seminar/journal club. A couple of those I did during vet school, the rest last year. That's nice if your coursework is pretty much covered...I definitely skipped classes and they were bottom priority usually.

 

[PrincessButterCup]

Your PhD is 48 total credits? Huh.

They want 90 here (including research credits) and vet school transfers 12. I needed some classes (there's a minimum, it can't just be all research credits), so I took 24 additional hours of classes including seminar/journal club. A couple of those I did during vet school, the rest last year. That's nice if your coursework is pretty much covered...I definitely skipped classes and they were bottom priority usually.

The MS here is 30 credits, with 20 being actual classes and 10 being research credits (but the way it falls, EVERYONE ends up with way more research credits than they technically need). I want to say the PhD is like . . . 35 class credits? Maybe 40?

We can't earn a C grade in any class, or we automatically lose our stipend. I think most universities have similar rules.

 

[Frozenshades]

The MS here is 30 credits, with 20 being actual classes and 10 being research credits (but the way it falls, EVERYONE ends up with way more research credits than they technically need). I want to say the PhD is like . . . 35 class credits? Maybe 40?

We can't earn a C grade in any class, or we automatically lose our stipend. I think most universities have similar rules.

You can get a C here, your cumulative GPA just has to remain above a 3.0.

 

[WildZoo]

Your PhD is 48 total credits? Huh.

They want 90 here (including research credits) and vet school transfers 12. I needed some classes (there's a minimum, it can't just be all research credits), so I took 24 additional hours of classes including seminar/journal club. A couple of those I did during vet school, the rest last year. That's nice if your coursework is pretty much covered...I definitely skipped classes and they were bottom priority usually.

It's 48 credits hours without including the dissertation credits (I think that part varies but it's at least 3 credits per semester once you start it). 16 CEM (Comparative and Experimental Medicine) core course credit hours plus 32 credit hours accepted from the DVM program. That part is a little confusing because elsewhere it says "The accelerated dual program allows veterinary students to apply up to 8 credit hours of DVM course work toward a PhD degree in CEM" so I'll have to ask for clarification on that.

 

[supershorty]

Just registered for graduate courses and thesis credits. The whole "stepping out of the DVM curriculum to do a PhD" is suddenly feeling really real. And intimidating.

 

[PrincessButterCup]

Do you guys see much cliquey behavior in your programs? Our program has a lot of it, and it's probably driven by our set up. The majority of the grad students have labs in a different building from where I am (though they're connected) and they have office spaces right next to each other. There's been a little drama but nothing too serious. It kind of took me by surprise - I know vet school and med school have that reputation, but I've never heard anyone describe grad school that way.

 

[Balesofhay]

Oh hi. A thread where I fit in now. Maybe this will entice me to come back

They want 90 here (including research credits) and vet school transfers 12.

Here it's 30 for a masters(3 for mater's thesis, 6 for masters research). PhD is 60 if you're doing a direct PhD. 30 if you aren't I think bc the PhDs in my lab started at the same time and are finishing coursework at the same time as me

The MS here is 30 credits, with 20 being actual classes and 10 being research credits (but the way it falls, EVERYONE ends up with way more research credits than they technically need). I want to say the PhD is like . . . 35 class credits? Maybe 40?

Here it's 30 for a masters(3 for master's thesis, 6 for masters research). PhD is 60 if you're doing a direct PhD. 30 if you aren't I think bc the PhDs in my lab started at the same time and are finishing coursework at the same time as me

We can't earn a C grade in any class, or we automatically lose our stipend. I think most universities have similar rules.

You can get a C here, your cumulative GPA just has to remain above a 3.0.

Oh we can get Ds here... Found out thanks to immunology. Went on academic warning and had to bring up the GPA to 3.0 by next semester or else. Don't know what would've happened if I didn't but I'm lucky I didn't find out.

In other news, I'm done with my in vivo stuff and hopefully no more ELISAs. Now my time is devoted to RNA extraction, cDNA, and qPCR..... Then time to start writing again.

 

[PrincessButterCup]

Oh hi. A thread where I fit in now. Maybe this will entice me to come back

Bales!

I'm in writing land right now. It's a fun place. I'm sending a draft to my PI tonight, and I'm thrilled to get it off my desk for a little while at least. 😉

 

[Balesofhay]

Bales!

I'm in writing land right now. It's a fun place. I'm sending a draft to my PI tonight, and I'm thrilled to get it off my desk for a little while at least. 😉

I’ve got 20 pages for my lit review and there are parts I need to go beef up a little. I’ve presented a poster and seminar so far which means I have data for part one summarized. Aiming to defend and graduate by May. So soon


With the birds over the past month, I’ve barely had time to study for classes. Hopefully when I finish the rna I can study a bit more. I’m working though thanksgiving to get it done. Only cecal tonsils for now. Maybe spleen if the CT results are significant this time

 

[PrincessButterCup]

I’ve got 20 pages for my lit review and there are parts I need to go beef up a little. I’ve presented a poster and seminar so far which means I have data for part one summarized. Aiming to defend and graduate by May. So soon


With the birds over the past month, I’ve barely had time to study for classes. Hopefully when I finish the rna I can study a bit more. I’m working though thanksgiving to get it done. Only cecal tonsils for now. Maybe spleen if the CT results are significant this time

I'm very okay with not doing hands-on work with live animals. It's one of the great things about genetics.

 

[WildZoo]

I'm very okay with not doing hands-on work with live animals. It's one of the great things about genetics.

Lol meanwhile I'm so looking forward to doing some field work

 

[PrincessButterCup]

Lol meanwhile I'm so looking forward to doing some field work

I'll leave you to it 😛

 

[PrincessButterCup]

The semester only has three weeks left, which means I have AT MOST 2 sets of quizzes and then final exams to help grade, and maybe only 2 more review sessions. Maybe 3. But we're so close I can see the light at the end.

3 more weeks. And then a couple weeks with no classes, and a few days off for Christmas, and then a week-long conference in January, and then come back to school and start off a week behind on spring lectures. It'll be great. 😉

 

[CanadatoUS2019]

New to the forums, but I did a MSc at a veterinary college in Canada.

Graduate school can be either terrible or amazing, and is most often a combination of the two. For me, I had an amazing supervisor and co-supervisor but even then you can't escape academia politics. I also made some really great friends. However, going into research with no prior experience is not advised at all in my opinion.

Just because you have a DVM does not make you any more qualified for research than someone with a BSc (North America). In fact, you're honestly still on the same playing field as them, maybe even less so because they haven't been hand-fed the past four years. That has been my experience working with DVM students while I was in graduate school.

That said, being a DVM does provide you with an upper hand over a BSc - if you know how to use it! The breadth of knowledge you bring gives you such a solid foundation. However some people come in with their eyes solely on equine research, or dairy research et cetera. The true potential of veterinary researchers comes from translational research (either animal to human, or animal to animal). Veterinarians are very fortunate because of the information they have collected over the past century that has been ignored by human physicians. Now they can collaborate or independently act towards very powerful investigative medicine.

At the same time, do not mark your experience by the number of publications you make. Yes, these are incredibly important if you wish to become a PI yourself. But they are not what makes you a great scientist. While it doesn't seem like it, you can make a big career or at least a stable career as someone who never publishes in Science, or Nature. Heck you don't even need to publish in the highest impact journal of your specialty.

Now if you were going into research to do basic science and not anything translational then you do not need a DVM. If you want to be tangentally attached to research as a clinician then you do not need a PhD. The strength of DVM/PhD's is their ability to do translational research. There are other benefits for agriculture as well, but many of those are niches that can be filled by animal scientists.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

New to the forums, but I did a MSc at a veterinary college in Canada.

Graduate school can be either terrible or amazing, and is most often a combination of the two. For me, I had an amazing supervisor and co-supervisor but even then you can't escape academia politics. I also made some really great friends. However, going into research with no prior experience is not advised at all in my opinion.

Just because you have a DVM does not make you any more qualified for research than someone with a BSc (North America). In fact, you're honestly still on the same playing field as them, maybe even less so because they haven't been hand-fed the past four years. That has been my experience working with DVM students while I was in graduate school.

That said, being a DVM does provide you with an upper hand over a BSc - if you know how to use it! The breadth of knowledge you bring gives you such a solid foundation. However some people come in with their eyes solely on equine research, or dairy research et cetera. The true potential of veterinary researchers comes from translational research (either animal to human, or animal to animal). Veterinarians are very fortunate because of the information they have collected over the past century that has been ignored by human physicians. Now they can collaborate or independently act towards very powerful investigative medicine.

At the same time, do not mark your experience by the number of publications you make. Yes, these are incredibly important if you wish to become a PI yourself. But they are not what makes you a great scientist. While it doesn't seem like it, you can make a big career or at least a stable career as someone who never publishes in Science, or Nature. Heck you don't even need to publish in the highest impact journal of your specialty.

Now if you were going into research to do basic science and not anything translational then you do not need a DVM. If you want to be tangentally attached to research as a clinician then you do not need a PhD. The strength of DVM/PhD's is their ability to do translational research. There are other benefits for agriculture as well, but many of those are niches that can be filled by animal scientists.

Well said. The line they fed us for years when I was in school of "DVMs are wanted in research" lacked the fine print of "*with advanced research degrees and publications"

I've been on both sides as well - both as a vet student and as a PhD student in my own institution. My DVM didn't help me a bit - luckily, my prior research experience did so I could adapt quickly. My SO did it backwards - PhD first, then DVM....and in that case, his research work is actually helping because he has experience working independently, doesn't need to be spoon-fed, can troubleshoot without guidance, etc...things that are woefully lacking in most undergraduate education (and in my opinion, in most non-PBL vet school curricula until clinics come along)

 

[CanadatoUS2019]

Well said. The line they fed us for years when I was in school of "DVMs are wanted in research" lacked the fine print of "*with advanced research degrees and publications"

I've been on both sides as well - both as a vet student and as a PhD student in my own institution. My DVM didn't help me a bit - luckily, my prior research experience did so I could adapt quickly. My SO did it backwards - PhD first, then DVM....and in that case, his research work is actually helping because he has experience working independently, doesn't need to be spoon-fed, can troubleshoot without guidance, etc...things that are woefully lacking in most undergraduate education (and in my opinion, in most non-PBL vet school curricula until clinics come along)

Yeah I’m doing it backwards as well (hopefully). I always wanted to do research (did two undergraduate theses) and one of them happened to be under a veterinary clinician scientist. She does amazing work within her species but because she’s a vet she can effortless transition to mice work and even human work. That’s what inspired me. I want to do a PhD in an area that integrates animal and human science as well as sociology. So for me, having a DVM is really essential and provides an incredible foundation (One Health oh baby). Again though in my grad school veterinarians who were studying One Health missed the whole point. They basically played an animal scientist. That’s great but if I spent four years and hundreds of thousands of dollars on a degree to be a vet you’d bet I would use that niche and not be just an animal scientist.

 

[lilylilac]

Well said. The line they fed us for years when I was in school of "DVMs are wanted in research" lacked the fine print of "*with advanced research degrees and publications"

I've been on both sides as well - both as a vet student and as a PhD student in my own institution. My DVM didn't help me a bit - luckily, my prior research experience did so I could adapt quickly. My SO did it backwards - PhD first, then DVM....and in that case, his research work is actually helping because he has experience working independently, doesn't need to be spoon-fed, can troubleshoot without guidance, etc...things that are woefully lacking in most undergraduate education (and in my opinion, in most non-PBL vet school curricula until clinics come along)

I actually found that true for me as well, regarding the PhD before vet school. I’m much better at the critical thinking aspect than the rote memorization. I’ve also found that I seem to handle the stress better than other classmates. I still obviously get stressed but I’ve developed the coping and organization skills to manage it, in great part due to the beast that is a PhD.

 

[Balesofhay]

Meanwhile I don’t think I could go back on the vet school route after grad school. Two classes a semester and lab is much nicer imo

 

[sheltermed]

Meanwhile I don’t think I could go back on the vet school route after grad school. Two classes a semester and lab is much nicer imo

Had you experienced lab work prior to grad school? I did a bunch of it in undergrad and that's how I got to know that it was definitely not something I wanted for a prolonged period. (also hi how are ya)

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

The "One Health" concept does still make me shake my head in sadness a bit. I think the only people who talk about it/care about it are vets. Most physicians and researchers I know have no idea what the heck One Health is.

 

[CanadatoUS2019]

The "One Health" concept does still make me shake my head in sadness a bit. I think the only people who talk about it/care about it are vets. Most physicians and researchers I know have no idea what the heck One Health is.

The big thing is that research is still hyper competitive and individualistic. So people are still reluctant to collaborate. This is a problem even within disciplines let alone across them. That in itself is a problem. However many colleges are now trying to integrate veterinary and medical colleges for research. For example all laboratories at my university for human and vet med were at the hospital. It didn’t help much but it was moving towards it as I left.

One Health on its own is a hard concept for many physicians. Why study animals when you’re a human physician? The prestige isn’t there. I’m personally interested in public health (as a vet!!?) and it’s amazing how people are like what you can do that? Even for veterinarians they don’t see it as much of a prestigious thing compared to basic or translational research.

Another thing is veterinarians can sometimes find themselves caught up in the prestige hierarchy as well and look down on environmentalists and biologists etc.

Once people get over the whole idea that human doctors are better than vets who are better than non clinicians we can get there.

 

[Balesofhay]

Had you experienced lab work prior to grad school? I did a bunch of it in undergrad and that's how I got to know that it was definitely not something I wanted for a prolonged period. (also hi how are ya)

I did not do wet lab research in undergrad, mostly computational stuff. I thought I hated wet lab up until this summer. I actually just hate cell culutre, especially primary cells.

The "One Health" concept does still make me shake my head in sadness a bit. I think the only people who talk about it/care about it are vets. Most physicians and researchers I know have no idea what the heck One Health is.

So cool thing. The program I'm applying to for my PhD is big on One Health. They work with the med school and vet school affiliated with the university. It's an interdisciplinary program funded by NIH. I can pm you it if you want but it's a unique program/

Oh also my current research has a bit of One Health mixed into it. Or at least that's the approach I'm taking on it.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

@Balesofhay The T32? If so, yeah, that's the one I did.

I guess I should have specified. The actual overarching "One Health" concept, not just translational research. The latter has been going on decades. My entire PhD was half translational mouse models and half human patient samples and biomarker data. Lots of med school vet school collab. But it is almost always the vet school that has to in and maintain the relationship, and outcomes are still heavily driven towards advances on the human side rather than lateral advances in multiple fields. I've never heard a physician or researcher utter the words One Health unless they knew it from a vet they worked with. It's not emphasized NEARLY as much, if at all. In the other disciplines it is supposed to encompass.

@CanadatoUS2019 I don't know if I really buy the old trope that physicians think they are better than us. I've never been met with anything other than respect by physicians. Heck, I'm faculty at a medical school. If they thought I was so inferior I doubt they would have hired me (or pay me what I'm being paid). I'm sure there are always bad apples, but I don't think it's as common as people say.

 

[CanadatoUS2019]

@Balesofhay The T32? If so, yeah, that's the one I did.

I guess I should have specified. The actual overarching "One Health" concept, not just translational research. The latter has been going on decades. My entire PhD was half translational mouse models and half human patient samples and biomarker data. Lots of med school vet school collab. But it is almost always the vet school that has to in and maintain the relationship, and outcomes are still heavily driven towards advances on the human side rather than lateral advances in multiple fields. I've never heard a physician or researcher utter the words One Health unless they knew it from a vet they worked with. It's not emphasized NEARLY as much, if at all. In the other disciplines it is supposed to encompass.

@CanadatoUS2019 I don't know if I really buy the old trope that physicians think they are better than us. I've never been met with anything other than respect by physicians. Heck, I'm faculty at a medical school. If they thought I was so inferior I doubt they would have hired me (or pay me what I'm being paid). I'm sure there are always bad apples, but I don't think it's as common as people say.

That’s interesting. Of course there are many vets with appointments at medical colleges. I think my experience has been more with students so I suppose that was an unfair assessment

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I think all professional students (including vet students) have chips on their shoulders at first. It's because we all get cooed over and coddled like we're the smartest and best things in the world. It breeds a sense of entitlement and superiority. Eventually reality catches up and you (not you personally, the generic "you") realize that you're NOT as special as you thought you were, and you mature.

 

[PrincessButterCup]

My PI is faculty in two different colleges here, and I'm interested in the other enough to consider switching programs (but I would stay in the same lab, same projects). I'm going to plop some brain vomit here and see if anyone has some advice.

First program (where I am currently): animal science

Pros

- The biggest benefit to staying in this program is that I have a lot of flexibility in what courses I can take. I can (theoretically) take all the same classes I would in the other program, but graduate with an Animal Science PhD.
- I know a lot of the faculty here already, and I like this department.
- My lab mate is in this program. If I switch I won't be a part of the same clubs/department activities that she is.

Indeterminate pro/con

- I did my BS in the same department I'm in now. (I don't think it's worth switching for that reason alone, but there miiiiight be benefits to earning a degree from a different college/department than I did my undergrad work in?)

Other program (computational biology)

Pros

- Most (not all) of the courses I plan to take are from this program.
- Better funding. This is one of the big reasons I'm considering the switch. There is a fellowship I can apply for through this program (and have a decent chance at, as it goes to 4 students every year, but it's definitely not guaranteed)
- My PhD would be from a different college and department than my BS (but I'm not sure how important/helpful that would be necessarily). My thought is that this degree might give me broader career opportunities than an animal science PhD would.

Con?

- I'm interested in bioinformatics/computational biology but I don't know that I want to work as a computational biologist or bioinformatician as a career. My research is all molecular genetics, so bioinformatics skills are very applicable to this field even if I don't market myself as a bioinformatician
- There are two classes (immunology and physiology) I've planned to take but are not part of the computational program. BUT there are 15 "extra" credits that aren't accounted for by the required classes, so it's possible (probable) I could use those credits for physiology and immuno even if I switch. Not being able to take those classes is the biggest reason I would decide against switching programs.


So I guess . . . is there any benefit/drawback to graduating with two degrees from the same program? Is the chance for better funding worth having less freedom in my coursework? Any thoughts?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I'm a little confused how funding would matter if you would stay in the lab....wouldn't the funding of your individual PI remain constant no matter what department you did your degree under in name?

What about publication records? Would pub potential be affected by the dept switch? The name of the degree matters less than the quality and quantities of pubs you can potentially achieve, IMO.

 

[nyanko]

@PrincessButterCup If you don't want to literally design new algorithms/software to work with NGS data I wouldn't bother taking advanced courses in computational biology as someone who wants to work in genomics/genetics. All you really need to know to effectively work with NGS data is some light scripting and how to work in a Linux environment. Without a ton of actual computational bio background you can easily learn about the data formats and the different ways that the data is analyzed and interpreted and learn the advantages and disadvantages of the algorithms and pipelines already out there for these things. You can PM me if you'd like to talk through that option - I work with a lot of dog genome sequence data and even am working with a de novo assembly, and there are already programs out there for a lot of what I do.

 

[nyanko]

Another consideration: how heavy in computational bio is your research? Your dissertation committee will likely have different requirements for membership depending on your program. Is your dissertation research computationally challenging enough that a pure bioinformatician or computational biologist would find it appropriate?

 

[PrincessButterCup]

I'm a little confused how funding would matter if you would stay in the lab....wouldn't the funding of your individual PI remain constant no matter what department you did your degree under in name?

What about publication records? Would pub potential be affected by the dept switch? The name of the degree matters less than the quality and quantities of pubs you can potentially achieve, IMO.

We pay tuition out of our stipend here, so my take home pay is about 8k/year after that. In the other department I can apply to have tuition waived. I guess finding isn't the right word - my take home pay would be better over there.

I would be doing the same lab work I do now, essentially. None of my projects would change.

@PrincessButterCup If you don't want to literally design new algorithms/software to work with NGS data I wouldn't bother taking advanced courses in computational biology as someone who wants to work in genomics/genetics. All you really need to know to effectively work with NGS data is some light scripting and how to work in a Linux environment. Without a ton of actual computational bio background you can easily learn about the data formats and the different ways that the data is analyzed and interpreted and learn the advantages and disadvantages of the algorithms and pipelines already out there for these things. You can PM me if you'd like to talk through that option - I work with a lot of dog genome sequence data and even am working with a de novo assembly, and there are already programs out there for a lot of what I do.

I took the bare minimum stats and math in college, and I'm feeling like that was to my disadvantage and I'd like to become more competent in those areas, which is partially why I'm interested in the switch. My lab mate has to do a bit of pipeline work and coding (mostly python) and she struggles with it since she hasn't had much computer science background. I was thinking that it would be easier to learn from coursework rather than on my own, but maybe not? I definitely don't want to be designing software. I'd like to become more competent with analysis and working with large data sets. I'll pm you tonight.

Another consideration: how heavy in computational bio is your research? Your dissertation committee will likely have different requirements for membership depending on your program. Is your dissertation research computationally challenging enough that a pure bioinformatician or computational biologist would find it appropriate?

It isn't so far, but my lab mate's work is becoming more computational, and mine has the potential to as well. We had a bioinformatician working in the lab and she left recently, so there's some slack to pick up there, but none of us have the level of experience to do much of it.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

We pay tuition out of our stipend here, so my take home pay is about 8k/year after that. In the other department I can apply to have tuition waived. I guess finding isn't the right word - my take home pay would be better over there.

Damn that suuuucks. How the hell do they expect people to live off of that?

 

[PrincessButterCup]

Damn that suuuucks. How the hell do they expect people to live off of that?

I would be eligible for a fellowship for 24k/year and have tuition waived in the other program (for up to two years, so not my entire PhD), which looks hella nice from where I am. I'm not going to lie, that's one of the big benefits of switching programs.

 

[IZZY222]

Wow I did not know this thread existed!!

I'm a 4th year DVM/PhD student at Mississippi State. Did vet school first (so I graduate in May). During our 1 summer, I did research and collected data (working on 2 projects with that). My PhD is in epi looking at calf immunity and test validation. Our program requires 90 credits with 30 being none lab credit. As a dual degree, I make 19k with class tuition waved plus I got some killer scholarships while I was in my DVM.

What is everyone doing?

The DVM/PhD students at my school have banded together and formed a "committee" which allows us to get perks like conferences paid for and allows us to teach some classes, depending on our specialties. It also gives us mentorship outside of our departments/committees.

 

[sheltermed]

at Mississippi State

Do they allow you to apply for the PhD program once your DVM is already underway?

 

[IZZY222]

Do they allow you to apply for the PhD program once your DVM is already underway?

Yes, they do.

They have kind of been having some weird application cycles. My year we applied during our vet school application (but you could always apply anytime if you found a PI while in vet school). Then for 3 years they did apply after your first year and now we are back to apply when you turn in your vet school application.

Basically, we have a bunch of money for DVM/PhD students and like no students.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I would be eligible for a fellowship for 24k/year and have tuition waived in the other program (for up to two years, so not my entire PhD), which looks hella nice from where I am. I'm not going to lie, that's one of the big benefits of switching programs.

That's minimum what a STEM grad student/GRA should get. At my institution you were only charged tuition if you made more than ~3300/mo as a GRA (which I don't know how the hell you would get that much anyway, that's like 45k/yr). Any less than that and you were eligible for tuition and fees waiver.

 

[Balesofhay]

That's minimum what a STEM grad student/GRA should get. At my institution you were only charged tuition if you made more than ~3300/mo as a GRA (which I don't know how the hell you would get that much anyway, that's like 45k/yr). Any less than that and you were eligible for tuition and fees waiver.

Even as a masters student in ag(which pays far less than STEM), I get a tuition waiver. The only thing I need to pay are my student fees and parking pass.

 

[PrincessButterCup]

Even as a masters student in ag(which pays far less than STEM), I get a tuition waiver. The only thing I need to pay are my student fees and parking pass.

They get around it by calling them "tuition and student fees" so we're not paying "tuition" per se, we're paying "fees". It's crappy but I didn't realize it's so common for grad students to make more. The school across from us paid better but I thought they were the exception and we were the norm.

 

[WildZoo]

They get around it by calling them "tuition and student fees" so we're not paying "tuition" per se, we're paying "fees". It's crappy but I didn't realize it's so common for grad students to make more. The school across from us paid better but I thought they were the exception and we were the norm.

With a grad assistantship from the department I'll be in here you get a tuition waiver for up to 4 years and $20k/yr stipend. Honestly if I were in your shoes I'd probably switch for that reason alone...you shouldn't be taking home only $8k a year.

Edit: that's if you can reasonably guarantee you'll get the fellowship

 

[PrincessButterCup]

With a grad assistantship from the department I'll be in here you get a tuition waiver for up to 4 years and $20k/yr stipend. Honestly if I were in your shoes I'd probably switch for that reason alone...you shouldn't be taking home only $8k a year.

Edit: that's if you can reasonably guarantee you'll get the fellowship

It's not a guarantee, unfortunately, but the application pool is relatively small considering they award 4 fellowships every year and it's not a huge program. I think it's reasonably likely that I would win at some point, especially since my research is pretty awesome. (confidence is good, yes? 😛)

The fellowship application is due early February, so I have a bit of time before I need to let my LOR writers know/let my boss know if I plan to apply. Once I have confirmation that I can still take immunology and physiology under those extra 15 credits, I really see no reason not to do it. I'm in an animal science lab (molecular genetics of livestock species), so I would still be firmly within the animal science world even if I switch out. Best of both worlds maybe.

 

[Minnerbelle]

However...... at the end of the day.....you are an indentured servant who has very little say, and they will absolutely sugar-coat things and tell white lies to get you to do what they want and stay a happy little student (e.g. ok you'll graduate this semester! ok, well, you'll graduate maybe next semester when this project is done...ok, definitely next semester when this project is done....etc) You are there to make them look good. You are there to do work that can get them grants, to get them papers, to increase their prestige and enhance their tenure applications. They will dangle carrots all over the place and very rarely will you actually get one. Learn how to say no, learn how to question them, and take care of yourself first. Never take everything they say for granted. There is always another angle at play.

Truer words have never been said. Your PI might be your best friend, your biggest cheerleader, and your greatest advocate UNTIL your interests collide with theirs. Then the other shoe drops.

Even when things are going well (I.e. Good funding, you have an awesome project that works and is publishable in a high impact journal), you have a ton that is beyond your control. Everyone needs their name on that paper in strategic places to look good. Well what happens when there are two big collaborating labs and there is only one or two spots for first and/or co-firstauthor (which already is like meh to be the second one listed), and one spot for the last author? Your PI dukes it out with the other lab, and the other PI gets to be last author. Their postdoc and you should be co-firstauthor. But like... your nontenured faculty PI in a precarious funding situation "needs" this more than you... and voila, you are now a sad third author on this paper that would have put you on the map. Like this paper is make it or break it for you... and your PI feels bad for you so you get to graduate soon. But now your entire career is screwed over. You're very likely out of the running for a successful academic career. Sucks to be you. But there's a huge line in front of you just to ride the waambulance.

And as far as graduating timeline goes, it super sucks if you've produced enough things and are truly ready to defend and you're continuing to be enslaved because the PI "needs" you (esp when that puts you out of the running for that one position that would have worked out for you). But that doesn't mean a 3-4 year more-often-than-anywhere-else-guaranteed PhD in a duel program is necessarily a good thing. It's totally fine if your goal is to check the box off to have a PhD to be in the running to secure a professor position in a vet school (any combination of clinical/teaching/and low impact research). Or if your specialty requires it for advancement. It probably isn't if your goal is to become a PhD researcher and to compete with all the others out there with PhDs. I'm sorry, but One Health my ass. No one gives a ****. It's different from MD/PhD people because there are way more clinical research funding available such that MDs alone can have pretty successful research careers. There's going to be a huge difference in how you will appear after coming out of a 3-4 year DVM/PhD duel program to a hiring research powerhous or grant agencies, compared to everyone else out there who is struggling and not making it. A ton of people in the failure bin include those from meat grindery labs at meat grindery institutions like MIT who were finally allowed to defend after 7 years, being pitted up against the army of imported foreign postdocs in the same lab who live night/day in the lab trying to outperform you because that is hopefully their ticket to stay in the US.

Because my husband is a PhD (super luckily employed in his field), most of his friends are also. And other than the two PIs he's worked for and a couple super lucky friends who are on their way to professorship, eeeeveryone else is in their mid 30s to mid 40s are in limbo with no secure terminal job. And they are all very smart capable people who continue to be indentured servants either at Harvard or MIT a decade out from their PhDs. The whole PhD thing is a pyramid scheme. There are countless postdoc and grad student positions for every PI. What happens when you're a good researcher who is not lucky enough to become a PI? Well then you do a second postdoc. And then that second one goes for the max number of years that institution allows, then you take an "instructor" position or whatever equivalent it's called which is just purgatory for those who really just continue to be a glorified postdoc. Like a lot of my vet friends are depressed and hate their lives, but they're probably less stressed than hubby's friends. I guess that's a plus to also having a clinical degree. You can do "something" when push comes to shove to earn a living.

If my kids ever tell me they want to become scientists, I might dissuade them harder than if they told me they wanted to become a vet...

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

And as far as graduating timeline goes, it super sucks if you've produced enough things and are truly ready to defend and you're continuing to be enslaved because the PI "needs" you (esp when that puts you out of the running for that one position that would have worked out for you). But that doesn't mean a 3-4 year more-often-than-anywhere-else-guaranteed PhD in a duel program is necessarily a good thing. It's totally fine if your goal is to check the box off to have a PhD to be in the running to secure a professor position in a vet school (any combination of clinical/teaching/and low impact research). Or if your specialty requires it for advancement. It probably isn't if your goal is to become a PhD researcher and to compete with all the others out there with PhDs. I'm sorry, but One Health my ass. No one gives a ****. It's different from MD/PhD people because there are way more clinical research funding available such that MDs alone can have pretty successful research careers. There's going to be a huge difference in how you will appear after coming out of a 3-4 year DVM/PhD duel program to a hiring research powerhous or grant agencies, compared to everyone else out there who is struggling and not making it. A ton of people in the failure bin include those from meat grindery labs at meat grindery institutions like MIT who were finally allowed to defend after 7 years, being pitted up against the army of imported foreign postdocs in the same lab who live night/day in the lab trying to outperform you because that is hopefully their ticket to stay in the US.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

It's a shame in many ways because I do think the concept the DVM/PhD researcher is a great thing.

However, due to the fractured nature of these combined programs, it's very difficult for the PhD "part" to measure up to a "true" PhD where the student has been able to focus 10000% on their research for 5+ straight years in a well-funded - i.e. basic science, not clinical veterinary medicine - atmosphere in terms of publication quality and impactful research. It has nothing to do with the grit or intelligence of the students, just the fact that you can't start-and-stop-and-start again without taking a major hit in your research progression (not to mention getting scooped).

I see dualies graduating with only one or two first author papers in journals with impact factors of 3-5 or less, and expect to begin high-impact research careers. Some only have a first-author review or two, not even an decent experimental paper. They're going to be at the bottom of the food chain compared to the hundreds and hundreds of PhDs/PhD+postdocs with multiple FA pubs in big journals. It's a damned shame.

 

[WildZoo]

It's a shame in many ways because I do think the concept the DVM/PhD researcher is a great thing.

However, due to the fractured nature of these combined programs, it's very difficult for the PhD "part" to measure up to a "true" PhD where the student has been able to focus 10000% on their research for 5+ straight years in a well-funded - i.e. basic science, not clinical veterinary medicine - atmosphere in terms of publication quality and impactful research. It has nothing to do with the grit or intelligence of the students, just the fact that you can't start-and-stop-and-start again without taking a major hit in your research progression (not to mention getting scooped).

I see dualies graduating with only one or two first author papers in journals with impact factors of 3-5 or less, and expect to begin high-impact research careers. Some only have a first-author review or two, not even an decent experimental paper. They're going to be at the bottom of the food chain compared to the hundreds and hundreds of PhDs/PhD+postdocs with multiple FA pubs in big journals. It's a damned shame.

Do you think the programs where you don't start and stop end up working better? Not that I'm planning to go into research as a career, but I'm just curious. My understanding is that the reason the timeline is shortened here is that you can apply a significant number of your DVM credits to the PhD, and take classes during the summer (if you start the program early enough). So you end up focusing on research and a couple classes once you finish the DVM.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Do you think the programs where you don't start and stop end up working better? Not that I'm planning to go into research as a career, but I'm just curious. My understanding is that the reason the timeline is shortened here is that you can apply a significant number of your DVM credits to the PhD, and take classes during the summer (if you start the program early enough). So you end up focusing on research and a couple classes once you finish the DVM.

Do you mean save all your research until after vet school? I guess I don't really see much of a difference there combined versus traditional (i.e. after DVM) in that case.

I did a traditional PhD after residency and was still able to transfer a significant number of my vet school credits to the degree, which shortened my time anyway. I finished in 5 years, but it would have been 3-4 if I had not had to switch labs after my first 2 years.

 

[WildZoo]

Do you mean save all your research until after vet school? I guess I don't really see much of a difference there combined versus traditional (i.e. after DVM) in that case.

I did a traditional PhD after residency and was still able to transfer a significant number of my vet school credits to the degree, which shortened my time anyway. I finished in 5 years, but it would have been 3-4 if I had not had to switch labs after my first 2 years.

Yeah I'm starting my research after I graduate. I know some people started the program in second year so maybe they started on their research then, not sure. It just makes me wonder why some programs do the stop and start thing.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I did a traditional PhD after residency and was still able to transfer a significant number of my vet school credits to the degree, which shortened my time anyway. I finished in 5 years, but it would have been 3-4 if I had not had to switch labs after my first 2 years.

With where you ended up in the end, do you think you could have ended up in the same/similar place had you gone through a non-DVM avenue (whether it be grad school only vs. MD pathologist/PhD)? And if so, would you have preferred to have gone that route? Do you feel like vet pathology is still your passion. And is the path you've taken one you would take again, if you were to do this over again?

 

[Balesofhay]

So the professor that I was interested in joining for a PhD finally got back to me. 5 months after I emailed him. I had assumed no answer meant no funding/space and moved on. We finally talked more and his research is far more statistical and quantitative bioinformatics than I thought. After retaking the GRE yesterday, I’m not feeling too confident with math or having to take calculus courses for the first time since 2014. I’m going to mull over it during break and read a couple more papers. Maybe email his grad students to see. It’s not a decision I want to rush into.

I just needed to get this out and don’t really feel comfortable sharing this with my fellow grad students in the department

 

[PrincessButterCup]

So the professor that I was interested in joining for a PhD finally got back to me. 5 months after I emailed him. I had assumed no answer meant no funding/space and moved on. We finally talked more and his research is far more statistical and quantitative bioinformatics than I thought. After retaking the GRE yesterday, I’m not feeling too confident with math or having to take calculus courses for the first time since 2014. I’m going to mull over it during break and read a couple more papers. Maybe email his grad students to see. It’s not a decision I want to rush into.

I just needed to get this out and don’t really feel comfortable sharing this with my fellow grad students in the department

Definitely speak with his students if you can. Will you be able to visit in person before you apply? Is it a poultry lab, or something completely different than what you've done for your MS? If it doesn't feel right it's definitely worth while to take time off and find a better fit for your career and research goals.

I'm convinced the GRE is a bull **** measurement of potential. It's always nice to do well on those things, but I wouldn't let a low score convince you that you'll do poorly in coursework. There's a reason my department doesn't require the GRE for applicants.