UPenn vs. Columbia

[Papa Doc]

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A little background: I am from Miami and went to undergrad there. After all my interviews I was most in love with Stanford and Penn but got wait listed at Stanford. Having done a summer research program at penn i am familiar with Philly and absolutely love the city as well as the school. Had basically made my decision when all of the sudden Columbia hit me with a scholarship and so Penn will effectively cost 100k more over the four years. Now an easy decision has become super difficult. Follow my heart or follow the money?

I want to go into a competitive non-surgical specialty though I have yet to choose one. Most likely a sub-specialty of IM though.

Can the SDN community please give me any and all advice and insight?

Also, some specific pros and cons for each school would also be much appreciated.

As sort of an added curve ball there is also the fact that while right now I am practically dirt poor there is a significant chance that my father will sign a contract in the next 6 months where his salary would jump to about 30k/month and he told me if this happens he would take care of all my loans. This would effectively solve the money problem though it is a gamble because it isn't certain.

Thank you!!!

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

A little background: I am from Miami and went to undergrad there. After all my interviews I was most in love with Stanford and Penn but got wait listed at Stanford. Having done a summer research program at penn i am familiar with Philly and absolutely love the city as well as the school. Had basically made my decision when all of the sudden Columbia hit me with a scholarship and so Penn will effectively cost 100k more over the four years. Now an easy decision has become super difficult. Follow my heart or follow the money?

I want to go into a competitive non-surgical specialty though I have yet to choose one. Most likely a sub-specialty of IM though.

Can the SDN community please give me any and all advice and insight?

Also, some specific pros and cons for each school would also be much appreciated.

As sort of an added curve ball there is also the fact that while right now I am practically dirt poor there is a significant chance that my father will sign a contract in the next 6 months where his salary would jump to about 30k/month and he told me if this happens he would take care of all my loans. This would effectively solve the money problem though it is a gamble because it isn't certain.

Thank you!!!

You are crazy to consider Penn. 100k scholarship at Columbia, and you are dirt poor...how is this decision not obvious to you.

 

[LVE]

I would follow the money. Honestly the quality of education is going to be great either way. Basically you have to decide how much better Penn is for you, and try to make that into an amount of money. Is it 100k better? Personally I doubt it, but I'm not you.

 

[cookiemonsters]

Hey OP, sounds like money isn't really a huge burden for you or your family. Normally I say follow the money, but in this case it sounds like you have the luxury of following your heart.

 

[Papa Doc]

You are crazy to consider Penn. 100k scholarship at Columbia, and you are dirt poor...how is this decision not obvious to you.

I completely agree which is why im considering Columbia at all because Penn is where my heart is at. But again, the money is too damn attractive lol

 

[Papa Doc]

Hey OP, sounds like money isn't really a huge burden for you or your family. Normally I say follow the money, but in this case it sounds like you have the luxury of following your heart.

Well money isnt a burden because im gonna take out loans for everything. And while paying them off would suck there is a possibility my family will be in a position to pay it for me. I guess I just really dont know if I should take the gamble.

 

[ranson]

Going to Penn over Columbia or Columbia over Penn isn't going to make a single difference in terms of how you match. Once you reach certain level of reputation, it doesn't matter what school you go to but rather how well you do on step 1, research, and rotations. Both schools are identical in reputation and will open doors for you to get into any specialty. I would take the $$$ and go to Columbia, especially considering your financial situation and considering how both schools have nearly identical curriculums: 1.5 preclinical and step 1 after rotations. However, one thing that Columbia has is that it is P/F for the entire 1.5 preclinical year, while Penn is not.

 

[trino]

Well money isnt a burden because im gonna take out loans for everything. And while paying them off would suck there is a possibility my family will be in a position to pay it for me. I guess I just really dont know if I should take the gamble.

Will Penn not match the money? Something tells me they would. Give them a call

 

[DermViser]

A little background: I am from Miami and went to undergrad there. After all my interviews I was most in love with Stanford and Penn but got wait listed at Stanford. Having done a summer research program at penn i am familiar with Philly and absolutely love the city as well as the school. Had basically made my decision when all of the sudden Columbia hit me with a scholarship and so Penn will effectively cost 100k more over the four years. Now an easy decision has become super difficult. Follow my heart or follow the money?

I want to go into a competitive non-surgical specialty though I have yet to choose one. Most likely a sub-specialty of IM though.

Can the SDN community please give me any and all advice and insight?

Also, some specific pros and cons for each school would also be much appreciated.

As sort of an added curve ball there is also the fact that while right now I am practically dirt poor there is a significant chance that my father will sign a contract in the next 6 months where his salary would jump to about 30k/month and he told me if this happens he would take care of all my loans. This would effectively solve the money problem though it is a gamble because it isn't certain.

Thank you!!!

Actually it isn't more difficult. UPenn and Columbia are both great institutions and neither will hold you back in matching.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Well money isnt a burden because im gonna take out loans for everything. And while paying them off would suck there is a possibility my family will be in a position to pay it for me. I guess I just really dont know if I should take the gamble.

Don't even know what to say to this. You need to come back to down to earth.

 

[DermViser]

Going to Penn over Columbia or Columbia over Penn isn't going to make a single difference in terms of how you match. Once you reach certain level of reputation, it doesn't matter what school you go to but rather how well you do on step 1, research, and rotations. Both schools are identical in reputation and will open doors for you to get into any specialty. I would take the $$$ and go to Columbia, especially considering your financial situation and considering how both schools have nearly identical curriculums: 1.5 preclinical and step 1 after rotations. However, one thing that Columbia has is that it is P/F for the entire 1.5 preclinical year, while Penn is not.

BINGO. Thank you for thinking rationally.

 

[plumazul]

I completely agree which is why im considering Columbia at all because Penn is where my heart is at. But again, the money is too damn attractive lol

Two observations.

1) Leave your family's $ out of the decision.

2) You will learn to love Columbia.

 

[DermViser]

Well money isnt a burden because im gonna take out loans for everything. And while paying them off would suck there is a possibility my family will be in a position to pay it for me. I guess I just really dont know if I should take the gamble.

 

[Papa Doc]

Don't even know what to say to this. You need to come back to down to earth.

Didn't mean anything crazy by that. I just meant were lucky to live in a country where we can take student loans to go to med school. In my home country that is unheard of. Only the rich become doctors.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Didn't mean anything crazy by that. I just meant were lucky to live in a country where we can take student loans to go to med school. In my home country that is unheard of. Only the rich become doctors.

Yes, but student loans do not = free money. You are saddling yourself with a huge amount of debt. Do you want to be paying off your loans until you are 50? Or would you rather be able to save up to buy your first house, save for retirement, and fund your kids' college educations?

Something tells me you don't understand the massive impact that student debt can have on your future life plans. Let me guess, you are a 22 year old senior in college?

 

[Papa Doc]

Yes, but student loans do not = free money. You are saddling yourself with a huge amount of debt. Do you want to be paying off your loans until you are 50? Or would you rather be able to save up to buy your first house, save for retirement, and fund your kids' college educations?

Something tells me you don't understand the massive impact that student debt can have on your future life plans. Let me guess, you are a 22 year old senior in college?

I already graduated but yes I'm only 22. And tbh I'm not even the one who came up with the underestimation of the debt. I completely agree with you but a few older docs I know were telling me not to worry about loans too much because you can still pay them off and have a great life (granted these were penn docs) lol

 

[Papa Doc]

Two observations.

1) Leave your family's $ out of the decision.

2) You will learn to love Columbia.

You say that because of the fact it is a game whether they will have money or because I just shouldn't count on their help period?

And I do have to be practical and realize I will probably love it in time as most med students love the school they are at.

 

[DermViser]

Didn't mean anything crazy by that. I just meant were lucky to live in a country where we can take student loans to go to med school. In my home country that is unheard of. Only the rich become doctors.

😆You apparently aren't aware of med school admissions here, esp. at the top tier schools.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

I already graduated but yes I'm only 22. And tbh I'm not even the one who came up with the underestimation of the debt. I completely agree with you but a few older docs I know were telling me not to worry about loans too much because you can still pay them off and have a great life (granted these were penn docs) lol

Horrible advice, and I believe it, because I've gotten some horrible advice from docs myself. Example: "If you don't get into one of your top choices, you should reapply next year." A lot of docs (older ones especially) are so far removed from this process, their advice should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

 

[DermViser]

I already graduated but yes I'm only 22. And tbh I'm not even the one who came up with the underestimation of the debt. I completely agree with you but a few older docs I know were telling me not to worry about loans too much because you can still pay them off and have a great life (granted these were penn docs) lol

Rule #1 - don't take financial advice from those who experienced the Golden Age of Medicine. You're entering a Brave New World when it comes to finances.

 

[Papa Doc]

Actually it isn't more difficult. UPenn and Columbia are both great institutions and neither will hold you back in matching.

I agree both schools are in the same ballpark I wasn't debating that I was just considering the fact that my heart is at penn and am mulling whether it's worth all that debt.

 

[Papa Doc]

Will Penn not match the money? Something tells me they would. Give them a call

Unfortunately I have the max amount of aid from Penn and they don't cover living expenses. While Columbia is giving me both merit and need based aid to cover everything.

 

[Papa Doc]

😆You apparently aren't aware of med school admissions here, esp. at the top tier schools.

I am completely aware as I have been here for 18 years. I didn't not know if they were stating that money was not an issue because I'm loaded or because of the fact that loans can cover the balance. I apologize for the confusion.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Can you come back to Columbia for a second look? If so, see if maybe another review might improve your opinion.

 

[cookiemonsters]

I agree both schools are in the same ballpark I wasn't debating that I was just considering the fact that my heart is at penn and am mulling whether it's worth all that debt.

Why is your heart on Penn? Prestige? Location? NYC is like 2 hours drive from Phi so you can just hop on the Megabus and be there basically any time you feel liek visiting.

edit:

Unfortunately I have the max amount of aid from Penn and they don't cover living expenses. While Columbia is giving me both merit and need based aid to cover everything.

So you can go to Columbia debt free, while Penn is >100K more expensive? This is like a dream situation, pick Columbia and never look back. Tell your dad to give you his money to put a down payment on a home lol.

 

[fbtkdrbs]

I don't think you can go wrong with any of your options. But it sounds like you really want to attend Penn. Make sure to ask Penn if they will match your scholarship in Columbia. Congrats!

 

[Papa Doc]

Rule #1 - don't take financial advice from those who experienced the Golden Age of Medicine. You're entering a Brave New World when it comes to finances.

Yeah :/ I know what you mean. The doc that told me this was a UPenn Adcom member so perhaps he was simply attempting to convince me.

 

[trino]

Unfortunately I have the max amount of aid from Penn and they don't cover living expenses. While Columbia is giving me both merit and need based aid to cover everything.

Ah, I met a few people on Penn's second look that were making the same decision about a few top 20 schools. Most decided to go with Penn, but these schools weren't the same caliber as Columbia (although to be honest, the caliber difference between top 10 and top 20 is very small if it even exists). I would love to have you as a classmate, but I'm not sure you should pass up free money

 

[Papa Doc]

Can you come back to Columbia for a second look? If so, see if maybe another review might improve your opinion.[/QUOTE

I wish I had the money for it! I was only able to go to Penns because they paid for my flight.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Did you ask Columbia if they would now? I'd also be interested in hearing your response as to why you like penn.

 

[Papa Doc]

Why is your heart on Penn? Prestige? Location? NYC is like 2 hours drive from Phi so you can just hop on the Megabus and be there basically any time you feel liek visiting.

edit:


So you can go to Columbia debt free, while Penn is >100K more expensive? This is like a dream situation, pick Columbia and never look back. Tell your dad to give you his money to put a down payment on a home lol.

I just loved all of the students and faculty there. I am also in love with living in the center city area. They also party pretty damn hard which I love lol.

Ah I know what you mean!!!! It would be crazy to be debt free and be able to buy a car and whatnot.

 

[Papa Doc]

Did you ask Columbia if they would now? I'd also be interested in hearing your response as to why you like penn.

No I haven't. Do you think they would do that? That would be awesome.

 

[mmmcdowe]

No I haven't. Do you think they would do that? That would be awesome.

They might, have in the past for 2nd looks at least. I think you'll find that we know how to play hard here too.

 

[Papa Doc]

They might, have in the past for 2nd looks at least. I think you'll find that we know how to play hard here too.

I definitely have to look into that then. I asked them for second look and never got a response so I figured they didn't really want me. Then all of the sudden got hit with the scholarship and was very surprised.

 

[yankees26]

honestly, u cant go wrong. IMO, 100K wouldnt be enough to not follow my heart. In the long run, the money means less and less. Sure, it seems a lot on paper right now. But of course, I dont know your situation. If youre heart is at Penn and you thought you would be extremely happy there, I think Penn would be a perfect fit. I would also recommend you call Penn and tell them that you received a scholarship. That could do something. But, I say being happy is worth the money 🙂

 

[Meredith92]

Unfortunately I have the max amount of aid from Penn and they don't cover living expenses. While Columbia is giving me both merit and need based aid to cover everything.

Congrats on your acceptances! If you don't mind would you clarify this? So you got full tuition scholarships for both except that columbia also is paying for housing as well? Does this mean you would only be taking out loans for housing at penn? If this is the case, I would go where you are happiest. You are getting full tuition either way! That's just my opinion🙂

 

[ChEMD]

The difference between graduating with loans and graduating debt free is HUGE. I really think that future you will be kicking yourself if you voluntarily go into debt to go to Penn, especially when you can go to a school of equal caliber.

These feelings that you get when you interview at a school can often be misleading. You only interact with a small subset of students and faculty. Everyone puts on their best show in order to convince you to go there. It really isn't an objective look at the school or the student body. Students often are different if you happen to visit when a big test is coming up. Or maybe they had a rough week. Bottom line is, you will end up finding students that you fit in with at any school that you go to.

 

[Papa Doc]

Congrats on your acceptances! If you don't mind would you clarify this? So you got full tuition scholarships for both except that columbia also is paying for housing as well? Does this mean you would only be taking out loans for housing at penn? If this is the case, I would go where you are happiest. You are getting full tuition either way! That's just my opinion🙂

Yes essential it's 0 loans vs 24k/year. I appreciate all the advice but I still don't know where to go, though I am leaning more towards the center now lol.

 

[Papa Doc]

The difference between graduating with loans and graduating debt free is HUGE. I really think that future you will be kicking yourself if you voluntarily go into debt to go to Penn, especially when you can go to a school of equal caliber.

These feelings that you get when you interview at a school can often be misleading. You only interact with a small subset of students and faculty. Everyone puts on their best show in order to convince you to go there. It really isn't an objective look at the school or the student body. Students often are different if you happen to visit when a big test is coming up. Or maybe they had a rough week. Bottom line is, you will end up finding students that you fit in with at any school that you go to.

I know what you mean. I definitely have to take that into consideration.

 

[yankees26]

Ill be going into 300K+ worth of loans. I think 100K( 25K per year) is more than insignificant, but I dont think it is worth changing where your heart is, especially if you wanted to come back to Philly since you like it so much.

 

[Nicco]

Come to philly man!

 

[Underarchiever]

Yes essential it's 0 loans vs 24k/year. I appreciate all the advice but I still don't know where to go, though I am leaning more towards the center now lol.

Even as big as the difference between Harvard and NYU, it does not worth 100K debt, unless it is for the family reason. If you choose academic medicine later, you would be much better off having minimal debt since the pay is less. If you choose private practice, the school name does not matter. Academically, both schools are about the same, but I feel Columbia a bit stronger because it has more high profile stars.

 

[RoareeTheLion]

Even as big as the difference between Harvard and NYU, it does not worth 100K debt, unless it is for the family reason. If you choose academic medicine later, you would be much better off having minimal debt since the pay is less. If you choose private practice, the school name does not matter. Academically, both schools are about the same, but I feel Columbia a bit stronger because it has more high profile stars.

100K may not be worth it for you... I'd say if it meant being happier in a location that I was comfortable with and somewhere I really clicked with the students, it would be worth "following your heart."

And I find it laughable that you say Columbia is stronger because it has more high profile stars. What does that even mean? Both are great schools, Penn has a slight edge in terms of rankings and prestige within medicine.

 

[Sophocles]

By "within medicine" do you mean the USNWR? People within the same institution will have different rankings and prestige which will also vary across the different fields in medicine.

A slight edge is what is truly laughable. What does that mean? At that level in medicine how do you determine a slight edge and what real world relevance would it have?

Don't take this personal, I'm just skeptical about your post.

 

[plumazul]

By "within medicine" do you mean the USNWR? People within the same institution will have different rankings and prestige which will also vary across the different fields in medicine.

A slight edge is what is truly laughable. What does that mean? At that level in medicine how do you determine a slight edge and what real world relevance would it have?

Don't take this personal, I'm just skeptical about your post.

For example, ARWU has Columbia at #5 and Penn at #24. I think most people would consider them peers.

 

[Papa Doc]

Thank you for all the advice guys!!! Still undecided but definitely considering Columbia more strongly. I suppose I have to decide wether my preferred school is worth 100k.

 

[CrunchyTeddy]

Go to Penn! Disclaimer: I may be biased because I'll likely (99.9%) be matriculating there in August.

Penn is known for its friendly med students and supportive environment, and if it's truly where your heart is, you can't go wrong! 100k is NOT that much to pay off with a doctor's salary. Besides, your family may be able to help you with a portion of that. I think it's obvious that Penn is the winner! =)

 

[ChEMD]

Is this 100k with or without compounded interest?

 

[Papa Doc]

Well 32k is a Upenm subsidized loan and 66k is regular stafford loan.

Not sure about the interest structure for either tbh.

 

[mdeast]

Have you tried asking Penn for more aid given your Columbia offer? They have a good aid program so they might be able to accommodate you.

I wouldn't rely on your parent's income. A lot of things happen. My father lost his job my 3rd of medical school which drastically increased my loans. Also, just practically speaking, even if your parents are making $360k/year....after taxes (let's say 200k net)....you're essentially asking for more than 1/2 of a full years salary to attend Penn over Columbia. As happy as your parents are apparently to foot the bill, I'm sure they would appreciate not having that sort of long-term financial burden while you're in school.... Especially since you're choosing between two excellent schools, with similar curriculums, and near-equal opportunities for research and footing in "prestige factor" during the residency match. It's not UPenn vs. some lower ranked state institution.

Also (re: not taking into account financial costs)...I think some older docs don't entirely understand how pricey medical education has gotten. Medical tuition and graduate loan interest rates have gone up a lot, especially in the context that physician pay is not as high as what it used to be as more clinicians switch from private practice to managed care organization models (i.e. salary). 100k repaid over 10 years amounts to about $140,000 in payments at $1200/month. That's in addition to any other loans you have to take out. You also won't be paying $1200/month during residency on your PGY salary and it will likely take you longer than 10 years to pay those off.

I'd definitely go with the 100k savings at Columbia. You'll get a great education at both and your parents WILL appreciate it (even though they may be very supportive and not openly admit it).