Official 2011-2012 IM "How To Rank" Thread

[gutonc]

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hey, Im having a question fitting together the programs into my list, in order Ive got them as:

Wisconsin
Utah
Case
OSU=U Rochester = Cincinnati
VCU
Loyola
**Will be interviewing at UNC and Wake soon

My question in particular regarding Utah & Wisconsin, especially Jdh as I feel like you have been praising both.

I love the outdoors and I think itd be very re-energigzing to have such easy access to the mountains of Salt lake, but I felt like the program and residents at UW Madison (and Case) were noticeably stronger. Obviously it will end up being a personal value decision, but is the difference in programs large enough that it would be unwise to rank Utah even first? I go back and forth, as Madison is a great outdoorsy city itself.

That's a tough call. As a general rule, you need to like "where you are" in order to really excel as a resident. What is meant by "where" can vary though. For some people the geography doesn't matter, only the program, others are the other way around with most people falling somewhere in the middle.

I interviewed at Madison and loved it. I didn't interview at Utah and still regret not checking it out as I've heard lots of great things about it. The fact that you can be on a chair lift 30 minutes after leaving the hospital (or on a MTB/hiking trail in 10 minutes) can be pretty enticing. And I've heard mostly good things from people I know who trained at Utah.

But it's hard to pass up a program like Madison and, although he kind of looks like a mix between Ghandi and the Unabomber, Dr. Vogelman is probably one of the Top 5 program directors in the country.

I honestly don't think you can go wrong either way you rank those two programs. If you're still conflicted and have the time/cash, this is the perfect reason to do a 2nd look.

As to the rest of your list, hopefully it won't matter but I don't see anything wrong with the way you have it.

 

[jdh71]

How are you defining "noticeably stronger"?

hey, Im having a question fitting together the programs into my list, in order Ive got them as:

Wisconsin
Utah
Case
OSU=U Rochester = Cincinnati
VCU
Loyola
**Will be interviewing at UNC and Wake soon

My question in particular regarding Utah & Wisconsin, especially Jdh as I feel like you have been praising both.

I love the outdoors and I think itd be very re-energigzing to have such easy access to the mountains of Salt lake, but I felt like the program and residents at UW Madison (and Case) were noticeably stronger. Obviously it will end up being a personal value decision, but is the difference in programs large enough that it would be unwise to rank Utah even first? I go back and forth, as Madison is a great outdoorsy city itself.

 

[pele1001]

Ive undoubtedly been pushed that way by my mentors at med school drink the UW koolaid and have not said much about Utah (which could be more of a regional thing as Im from midwest)

I think that opinion came mostly after an especially impressive discussion at morning report at Wisconsin, the residents seemed really to know their stuff. Research opportunities are very broad and they actively try to get you involved early with impressive fellowship match. PD struck me as very deep thinker who emphases career development early on which would be nice.

Utah obviously struck me as a stronger program than I had hoped, super high boards passing rate and good fellowship placement. Did have a higher % of grads going to be hospitalist than I had seen at the other universities which might be entirely meaningless. Morning conference was good but not as impressive as UW, could have been skewed as it was intern switch day and poorly attended. I know they have plenty of solid research but didn't seem as emphasized/important in the program overview- which is lame but what else can you go on.

So those things considered I walked away thinking UW was a stronger program than Utah. If in your experience those seem wrong and and would say theres not much difference in program strength then thats exactly the kind of thing I was wondering.

How are you defining "noticeably stronger"?

 

[gutonc]

So those things considered I walked away thinking UW was a stronger program than Utah. If in your experience those seem wrong and and would say theres not much difference in program strength then thats exactly the kind of thing I was wondering.

Strength is a relative term. What might be an awesome program for me and my career goals may not really offer you and your career goals all that much.

I think that it's a fool's errand to try to meaningfully separate two solid programs like Madison and Utah on any objective program related basis. You're welcome to drive yourself crazy trying though. But you'd be much better off spending your time deciding hippies vs. Mormons, lakes vs. mountains and Leinenkugel's vs. Polygamy Porter.

 

[jdh71]

Strength is a relative term. What might be an awesome program for me and my career goals may not really offer you and your career goals all that much.

I think that it's a fool's errand to try to meaningfully separate two solid programs like Madison and Utah on any objective program related basis. You're welcome to drive yourself crazy trying though. But you'd be much better off spending your time deciding hippies vs. Mormons, lakes vs. mountains and Leinenkugel's vs. Polygamy Porter.

Agreed.

In the most practical sense - ie where you find yourself standing at the end of residency and fellowship - there's not much difference, nothing that is going to matter that much on any level you can quantify.

Being 30 minutes from work to snowboarding . . . something none of us could quntify might mean the world.

It's now the time of year where we will begin to tell you guys to go with your gut, repeadly.

 

[pele1001]

thanks for the wise words you guys. I could feel it deep down but I think i just needed a little nudge in the right direction.

 

[UberGomez]

general feel of things from interviews and internet, but an IMG so not really sure of reputations in the states. any thoughts would be great.

Cincinnati, VCU, U of Rochester, Stony Brook, Henry ford, Buffalo

where would you put UCONN?

 

[EAC]

How would you all rank the following programs based on reputation alone?

I have my own geographic considerations and program preferences, but I'm curious to know what other people think:

UVA
Tulane
Michigan
Wisconsin
MCW
Wash U
Emory
Baylor Houston
San Antonio
Colorado
Utah
UCLA
Cedars Sinai
UCLA Harbor

Anyone?

 

[jdh71]

will be back later this evening

 

[jdh71]

general feel of things from interviews and internet, but an IMG so not really sure of reputations in the states. any thoughts would be great.

Cincinnati, VCU, U of Rochester, Stony Brook, Henry ford, Buffalo

where would you put UCONN?

Maybe . . .

VCU
Cinci = Roch
The rest about even below

or even . . .

VCU = Cinci = Roch
The rest about even below

 

[jdh71]

Anyone?

Maybe like . . .

Michigan = Wash U
UCLA
UVA = Emory
Wisconsin
Real Baylor = Colorado = Utah
San Antonio = Harbor = Cedars Sinai
Tulane = MCW

 

[DrVanNostran]

Maybe like . . .

Michigan = Wash U
UCLA
UVA = Emory
Wisconsin
Real Baylor = Colorado = Utah
San Antonio = Harbor = Cedars Sinai
Tulane = MCW

After seeing Wisconsin, I'd lump them in with UVA and Emory. Baylor is an odd entity, it has a super strong name and a strong past. Losing methodist and rumors about them becoming weak makes them seem not to be a powerhouse. Dr. Todd and Hamill seem to be excellent clinical educators. I think Baylor will strengthen their name again. I definitely think they are one of the best programs in the country. I know you HATE houston, but for some people it's really not that bad. Especially if you have friends and family in the area. I know this is pretty shallow, but Baylor dropped a few spots on my rank list because of only 2 weeks vacation and a 7k pay decrease.

On another note, I've interview at several program fortunately, and what I have come across is that while a few of my program hold a stronger name, the relative difference in the end is probably not that significant. Places like UIC and Rush aren't that high on the SDN love stick, but for me I thought they were great and I feel like I don't lose that much in my fellowship application by choosing them over say a Mayo or Emory. I know Mayo, Emory and etc have the name and classically the stronger program, but it really does seem to come down to where you really feel at home.

I give you SDNers props for mentioning this over and over again for the past few years. I had to experience the trail to really know what you guys meant.

 

[DrVanNostran]

Maybe . . .

VCU
Cinci = Roch
The rest about even below

or even . . .

VCU = Cinci = Roch
The rest about even below

I sort of wish my family was from Cincinnati. I LOVED the program and Dr. Warm. The Long Block structure is pretty sweet. If the OP is into H/O, they seem to be building a strong program for the region. I've never been to Richmond, but I think Cinci might be the best city of the 3.

 

[jdh71]

I'm going to be a gentleman and NOT say, "I told you so"

Oh? I just did?

****. I gotta work on this tact thing . . .

😀

 

[WonkaNerds]

I am forgetting some of my interview day experiences and now that its getting closer to submitting rank lists I'm in need of some help. 😕

Can anyone help with some points you took away from UCSF vs Stanford interview day. Any and all points welcomed...thanks!!

 

[kafkaontheshore]

I know this is pretty shallow, but Baylor dropped a few spots on my rank list because of only 2 weeks vacation and a 7k pay decrease.
.

It's actually 3.5 weeks. Get two request-able weeks, a four day holiday (xmas, NYE, tgiving), and the last week of intern year off. And the salary at Baylor is only 44k, but 44k in Houston goes an incredibly long way. Especially in comparison to the coasts.

Thought I'd put in a good word 🙂

 

[Chupacabra1]

I am trying to decide between Washington University in St. Louis and UAB for internal medicine residency. Please help with any advice you may have.

 

[DrVanNostran]

It's actually 3.5 weeks. Get two request-able weeks, a four day holiday (xmas, NYE, tgiving), and the last week of intern year off. And the salary at Baylor is only 44k, but 44k in Houston goes an incredibly long way. Especially in comparison to the coasts.

Thought I'd put in a good word 🙂

The last week is unpaid, but that might be the same across the nation.

 

[DrVanNostran]

I am trying to decide between Washington University in St. Louis and UAB for internal medicine residency. Please help with any advice you may have.

I think a majority of people would rank WashU above UAB if they are looking at reputation alone. I didn't interview at WashU so I can't comment on them, but I thought UAB was very impressive. I liked how the VA, UH, and Cooper Green were all within in walking distance. Birmingham is a pretty cool city if you like the south. Both are nice options, but WashU seems to trump most places across the country.

 

[KRichards62]

I am trying to decide between Washington University in St. Louis and UAB for internal medicine residency. Please help with any advice you may have.

Both great programs, so you can't go wrong either way. Both institutions have very strong research communities and exposure to advanced medical care in all areas.

Wash U probably has more of a national draw due to it's location in the midwest in a bigger city. This likely translates to broader fellowship placement, whereas UAB is more regional because most residents are from the southeast - although both programs are well regarded nationally.

Both programs rotate at university and VA hospitals, but UAB also rotates at the county hospital which may provide the edge in clinical exposure. Both are rigorous programs, but UAB may have the "friendlier" vibe which could just be southern vs. midwest culture.

Your opportunities are very good from both programs, so gut feeling should be the deciding factor.

 

[argencolts]

Okay done with interviews and interested in Cardiology. I have a good idea about my top 3 but need some help separating the others. Minnesota, Hennepin, Iowa, Wisconsin, Utah, UVA, Dartmouth, Rush, OHSU. Thanks!

 

[chorean]

UCLA
Harbor-UCLA
UCLA-Olive View
Cedars-Sinai
USC-LAC
UC Irvine
UCSD
UC Davis
Scripps Green
Scripps Mercy
Huntington Hospital
Kaiser LA/Sunset
Santa Clara Valley

Thanks!

 

[jdh71]

Okay done with interviews and interested in Cardiology. I have a good idea about my top 3 but need some help separating the others. Minnesota, Hennepin, Iowa, Wisconsin, Utah, UVA, Dartmouth, Rush, OHSU. Thanks!

Hmmm, maybe like . . .

UVA
Wisconsin = OHSU
Minn = Iowa = Utah = Dartmouth
Hennepin = Rush

 

[jdh71]

UCLA
Harbor-UCLA
UCLA-Olive View
Cedars-Sinai
USC-LAC
UC Irvine
UCSD
UC Davis
Scripps Green
Scripps Mercy
Huntington Hospital
Kaiser LA/Sunset
Santa Clara Valley

Thanks!

UCSD
Davis = USC
Harbor = Cedars = Irvine
Olive View
the rest

 

[applegeek1234]

.

 

[GiantsFan1980]

I know I am super lucky to have gotten all these interviews but now I am at a loss as to how to rank them. I really liked all of them for the most part - and I am a single 100% unattached dude. Interested in ID/research.

U of Chicago
Mount Sinai
Tulane
Stanford
UCSF
Uof Washington (loved the program - not so impressed by the match list for fellowship)
Columbia
UCLA
MGH
Brigham
Hopkins (is it worth moving to Baltimore?)
UPenn
Duke

 

[arielred]

Hi I'm looking to go into nephrology/ID/hospitalist ( haven't quite decided yet). Hoping to end up in a big city with good weather.

UCLA Olive View
USC
Kaiser LA
Kaiser SF
UIC (chicago)
Santa Clara Valley
Santa Barbara Cottage
University of Hawaii
Orlando Health
Providence St Vincent (portland)
Pennsylvania Hospital
Lenox Hill
Albert Einstein Philly


Sorry for the all over the place list. I'm an IMG so I kinda interviewed all over the country.

 

[gp314]

Here's another one. Set on cards. Thanks!

Michigan, Northwestern, UIC, Rush, Emory, UAB, Baylor, UT-Houston, UT Southwestern

 

[preetster]

any advice on how to rank SUNY Downstate, Upstate and UConn?

thanks!

 

[jdh71]

I know I am super lucky to have gotten all these interviews but now I am at a loss as to how to rank them. I really liked all of them for the most part - and I am a single 100% unattached dude. Interested in ID/research.

U of Chicago
Mount Sinai
Tulane
Stanford
UCSF
Uof Washington (loved the program - not so impressed by the match list for fellowship)
Columbia
UCLA
MGH
Brigham
Hopkins (is it worth moving to Baltimore?)
UPenn
Duke

 

[jdh71]

Hi I'm looking to go into nephrology/ID/hospitalist ( haven't quite decided yet). Hoping to end up in a big city with good weather.

UCLA Olive View
USC
Kaiser LA
Kaiser SF
UIC (chicago)
Santa Clara Valley
Santa Barbara Cottage
University of Hawaii
Orlando Health
Providence St Vincent (portland)
Pennsylvania Hospital
Lenox Hill
Albert Einstein Philly


Sorry for the all over the place list. I'm an IMG so I kinda interviewed all over the country.

Based on you goals, USC #1, followed by UIC, and then Olive View - rest as you like them

 

[jdh71]

Here's another one. Set on cards. Thanks!

Michigan, Northwestern, UIC, Rush, Emory, UAB, Baylor, UT-Houston, UT Southwestern

Mich
SWern
Emory = NWern
UAB
Baylor
UTH = UIC
Rush

 

[jdh71]

any advice on how to rank SUNY Downstate, Upstate and UConn?

thanks!

How YOU liked them. None of them are "standout" academically and you probably get good bread and butter training from any of them.

 

[butterfinger]

So I know the programs which will be at the top of my list but I am having difficulty ranking the middle tier. I found none of the programs to stand out from one another. Would like to keep option of competitive fellowship open. Location does not matter.

UAB
Colorado
Emory
UNC
UCSD
Wisconsin

Thanks.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Hey guys and gals,

Not really locked into any specific location, want to go into Onc. How would you tier/rank these guys? Only really had so so feeling at Yale, but think it was just my day. Critique away!

In no specific order:

BIDMC
UPenn
JHU-Osler
UChicago
Northwestern
UoWashington
Yale
Mount Sinai

Thanks guys!

I was underwhelmed by BIDMC. If you want to do international ID, they do have a good global health program.

I'd rank it:
Osler
Penn
Yale
Uwash
BIDMC
MSSM
Northwestern

Interested in cards..

Bayview, OSU, CCF, UIC, Loyola, Mayo-AZ........how would u guys rank these?

CCF tends to take a few to their own cards program but from Cards fellows I know there, they really poo-poo the training program. They don't feel the cards training (as a resident) is all that strong because it is fellow driven. That said I think they should top your list. Bayview probably next. Then I don't know.

Bayview is a very good community program which has close ties to the main Hopkins. Their CCU sees a whole lot of MICU overflows. The acuity in the CCU is mixed. We rotate through it and it ranges from things that should not be in an ICU to Acute cardiogenic shock with a balloon pump on multiple pressors. You can rotate through the main hopkins program and their cards match list is strong.

So CCF
Bayview
Rest

 

[mave]

Having trouble putting my list together. I'm mostly interested in primary care/geriatrics, but haven't ruled out hospitalist or fellowship (probably ID or nephrology). I'm okay with going pretty much anywhere, geography-wise.

In no particular order:
Penn State
Mayo AZ
University of Arizona
Banner Good Samaritan
MCW (for Med/Geri and Medicine)
University of Maryland
Lutheran General
Legacy Emanuel
Indiana
Pitt County/ECU

Thanks!

 

[mossyfiber12]

So I am pretty set on Cardiology at this point. I talked to one of my mentors and he said that if I cardiology is what I want, then I should rank CCF at the top since it will give me a best of chance to match into a fellowship. I, as a single guy, can't get over the fact that a fun city is a must for me. I have interviewed at all the university programs in Chicago (except NW and UC). Even though I didn't like any of those programs more so than CCF, I want to rank them higher because of the city.

Would I be screwing myself over if I did that? How big of a disadvantage would it be if for example I end up matching at Rush vs CCF in regards to matching into Cards later on?

Career wise, I feel like I should rank CCF #1 but when considering my social life, I feel the Chicago programs (especially Rush) #1.

Anyone else experience this before? Care to share your experience? What did you end up doing and how did you decide???

Btw...the places I am considering are CCF, Case Western, UMiami, Rush, UIC, Loyola, UCincinnati, UofIndiana, USF,

 

[MagicalTrevor]

Be happy, man. Life's too short to say "oh yeah i'll just wait until the next thing to live it up"

 

[smq123]

Moving to IM.

 

[raj007ml]

Hi guys...could anyone please solve this dilemma. IMG, aiming for a competitive fellowship...which one is a better program..place not a preference.🙂

 

[ohsekw]

Hey guys, curious what you think. I have compelling reasons to stay in LA right now (GF can't leave for next 2 years), but I also want to train somewhere respected that will give me the option to go nationally for fellowship (pulm).

Thoughts on these programs for balancing academics vs geography?

UCLA
Cedars
UCSF
OHSU
UW
UCLA Olive View
UCLA Harbor
Penn
Beth Israel Deaconess
UCSD
Scripps Green
Columbia
Cornell
NYU

Thanks for your help.

 

[UofM527]

Hi guys...could anyone please solve this dilemma. IMG, aiming for a competitive fellowship...which one is a better program..place not a preference.🙂

I won't even pretend to be an expert in this area, but I feel like, UAB would be the choice as you have phrased it, with perhaps a few caveats...UAB seemed extremely strong as a clinical program, and is quite a fine research institution in its own right as well - and you have said Birmingham isn't a draw back for you either. Boston is certainly a strong program too, and the caveat comes in where you prefer to do fellowship/work - with UAB being a very strong regional name, but not quite a big national power, Boston may help with regional placement if you would like to end up working in Boston or NY etc. Purely aiming for the best training/position for a competitive fellowship I'd prob go UAB

 

[wAyRadikull]

Could really use some help from the OGs with my atypical list:

No preference in location. Looking to get into Pulm/CCM after residency, most likely in-house fellowship

Drexel
Penn State Hershey
SUNY Downstate
Albany Medical
Carilion Clinic- Virginia Tech COM
Creighton University
SUNY Buffalo

The way I see it, all these progs are mid/lower-tier university programs with in-house Pulm/CCM. They take their own grads into fellowship. Decent clinical research which is what I am interested in.

So far, I have ranked them as above but could really use some help from you guys in terms of prestige and Pulm/CCM strength (I know none of them are prestigious per say but maybe more or less within my list)

Thanks in advance.

 

[KRichards62]

Mich
SWern
Emory = NWern
UAB
Baylor
UTH = UIC
Rush

Northwestern is the most competitive program of the bunch (due to location, etc) but considering actual quality of the programs I would say:

Michigan=Southwestern>NW=UAB=Emory>Baylor>the rest...

 

[jdh71]

Could really use some help from the OGs with my atypical list:

No preference in location. Looking to get into Pulm/CCM after residency, most likely in-house fellowship

Drexel
Penn State Hershey
SUNY Downstate
Albany Medical
Carilion Clinic- Virginia Tech COM
Creighton University
SUNY Buffalo

The way I see it, all these progs are mid/lower-tier university programs with in-house Pulm/CCM. They take their own grads into fellowship. Decent clinical research which is what I am interested in.

So far, I have ranked them as above but could really use some help from you guys in terms of prestige and Pulm/CCM strength (I know none of them are prestigious per say but maybe more or less within my list)

Thanks in advance.

Creighton tops that list IMHO, rank the rest the way you like them.

 

[jdh71]

Hey guys, curious what you think. I have compelling reasons to stay in LA right now (GF can't leave for next 2 years), but I also want to train somewhere respected that will give me the option to go nationally for fellowship (pulm).

Thoughts on these programs for balancing academics vs geography?

UCLA
Cedars
UCSF
OHSU
UW
UCLA Olive View
UCLA Harbor
Penn
Beth Israel Deaconess
UCSD
Scripps Green
Columbia
Cornell
NYU

Thanks for your help.

Dude, come on. Put scripps green, Olive View, Habror, and Cedars at the bottom of your list however you want and then rank however the hell you like for the rest - don't worry about finding a pulm spot, you're fine.

Of that list the most well rounded pulm/crit programs from the standpoint of pulm/critical care/research/academics would be Penn, UW, and UCSF

(but friends don't let friends go to UW for pulm/crit )

 

[jdh71]

Hi guys...could anyone please solve this dilemma. IMG, aiming for a competitive fellowship...which one is a better program..place not a preference.🙂

UAB

done

 

[gutonc]

Hey guys, curious what you think. I have compelling reasons to stay in LA right now (GF can't leave for next 2 years), but I also want to train somewhere respected that will give me the option to go nationally for fellowship (pulm).

Thoughts on these programs for balancing academics vs geography?

UCLA
Cedars
UCSF
OHSU
UW
UCLA Olive View
UCLA Harbor
Penn
Beth Israel Deaconess
UCSD
Scripps Green
Columbia
Cornell
NYU

Thanks for your help.

Given the other interviews you got, you'd be nuts to stay in LA for anything other than UCLA.

Here's how I'd break it down (in tiers...no specific order within tiers), first taking geography into account:
UCSF
Real UCLA
UW
-------
UCSD
OHSU
All the East Coast programs
-------
All the other CA programs

Now taking only program strength into account:
Columbia
Penn
BIDMC
UW
---------
Cornell (could frankly go in this tier or the one below it)
Real UCLA
UCSD
---------
OHSU
NYU
---------
Fake UCLAs and all the other CA programs

 

[jdh71]

So I am pretty set on Cardiology at this point. I talked to one of my mentors and he said that if I cardiology is what I want, then I should rank CCF at the top since it will give me a best of chance to match into a fellowship. I, as a single guy, can't get over the fact that a fun city is a must for me. I have interviewed at all the university programs in Chicago (except NW and UC). Even though I didn't like any of those programs more so than CCF, I want to rank them higher because of the city.

Would I be screwing myself over if I did that? How big of a disadvantage would it be if for example I end up matching at Rush vs CCF in regards to matching into Cards later on?

Career wise, I feel like I should rank CCF #1 but when considering my social life, I feel the Chicago programs (especially Rush) #1.

Anyone else experience this before? Care to share your experience? What did you end up doing and how did you decide???

Btw...the places I am considering are CCF, Case Western, UMiami, Rush, UIC, Loyola, UCincinnati, UofIndiana, USF,

CCF probably the best program for a chance to match into cardiology somewhere . . . though there is no reason you can't find a cards spot out of the "other" chicago programs

 

[jdh71]

Having trouble putting my list together. I'm mostly interested in primary care/geriatrics, but haven't ruled out hospitalist or fellowship (probably ID or nephrology). I'm okay with going pretty much anywhere, geography-wise.

In no particular order:
Penn State
Mayo AZ
University of Arizona
Banner Good Samaritan
MCW (for Med/Geri and Medicine)
University of Maryland
Lutheran General
Legacy Emanuel
Indiana
Pitt County/ECU

Thanks!

I'd put them together like:

Maryland
Indiana
Arizona
MCW
Mayo-Scott = Good Sam's
The rest