Touro University - California (TUCOM-CA) Discussion Thread 2016-2017

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Theres plenty of evidence behind the techniques. They are empirically developed and tested. The epidemiological effectiveness studies are lacking for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the lack of research focus at DO schools. I have also seen it help many people including myself where other treatments have not.
 
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There is some growing evidence that a lot of the techniques are either ineffective or detrimental in some cases, and things like pushing craniosacral therapy just make me cringe. I do think you get a better understanding of anatomy and better ability to use your hands to diagnose and understand what is going on with someones body, but there are just so many dubious beliefs that are pushed as gospel, that it makes even the proven and positive things hard to take seriously at times. From what I've seen, it's mostly students/academics where I've seen this, and a lot of it comes down to the attitude I've seen. "Watch me cure this person thats had lifelong debilitating back paint with 5 seconds of HVLA". The DO's I've shadowed that actually do use OMM, seem to have a very different mindset for the most part.


http://jaoa.org/article.aspx?articleid=2092865
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=0B56BFAB4F6C2B9D828491590F4E0B1E.f01t03
 
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libertyyne said:
I mean its an identity thing. It is the only real thing that differentiates them from the MD brethren. So I get the reason for the focus, but talking about it in unrealistic terms without any doubt turns me off as well.
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To me that's how all science is taught. As if there aren't any doubts. However, paradigm shifting research is becoming more and more common in basically all fields.
 
mavric1298 said:
There is some growing evidence that a lot of the techniques are either ineffective or detrimental in some cases, and things like pushing craniosacral therapy just make me cringe. I do think you get a better understanding of anatomy and better ability to use your hands to diagnose and understand what is going on with someones body, but there are just so many dubious beliefs that are pushed as gospel, that it makes even the proven and positive things hard to take seriously at times. From what I've seen, it's mostly students/academics where I've seen this, and a lot of it comes down to the attitude I've seen. "Watch me cure this person thats had lifelong debilitating back paint with 5 seconds of HVLA". The DO's I've shadowed that actually do use OMM, seem to have a very different mindset for the most part.


http://jaoa.org/article.aspx?articleid=2092865
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=0B56BFAB4F6C2B9D828491590F4E0B1E.f01t03
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Hmm, I would never claim that OMM can cure pmeumonia. It is posssible but it seems unlikely. I am planning on learning the techniques, well, and looking at the science to dictate what those techniques should and should not be used for. I haven't met DOs that claim the true use extends too far beyond NMS pain/circulation, etc. but I'm sure there are people out there just like there are people who claim pills can cure everything from depression to cancer. And untrained DOs should not be trying to fix things that early on. That seems unethical to me.
 
AspiringDoctorFish said:
Theres plenty of evidence behind the techniques. They are empirically developed and tested. The epidemiological effectiveness studies are lacking for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the lack of research focus at DO schools. I have also seen it help many people including myself where other treatments have not.
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AspiringDoctorFish said:
To me that's how all science is taught. As if there aren't any doubts. However, paradigm shifting research is becoming more and more common in basically all fields.
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Dogma is taught without doubt. Commonly accepted Practice standards are taught like that as well. I would say other stuff is taught with a healthy dose of skepticism and acceptance of the limitations of the technique and efficacy. This last part is completely lacking in conversation about OMM. That is a major turn-off. Just because you got well does not mean that the treatment caused it. Chiropracters, homeopaths, and other folks that lack evidence tend to talk in dogmatic matter of fact way in disseminating their information, without that skepticism and doubt. This makes it unpalatable.

Lack of evidence for support of practice is not a reason to give it the benefit of the doubt. It should go through the same rigirous standards of the scientific method, and if the evidence doesnt exisit that is even more reason to be skeptical of it prior to spending 100's of hours on it.
 
libertyyne said:
Dogma is taught without doubt. Commonly accepted Practice standards are taught like that as well. I would say other stuff is taught with a healthy dose of skepticism and acceptance of the limitations of the technique and efficacy. This last part is completely lacking in conversation about OMM. That is a major turn-off. Just because you got well does not mean that the treatment caused it. Chiropracters, homeopaths, and other folks that lack evidence tend to talk in dogmatic matter of fact way in disseminating their information, without that skepticism and doubt. This makes it unpalatable.

Lack of evidence for support of practice is not a reason to give it the benefit of the doubt. It should go through the same rigirous standards of the scientific method, and if the evidence doesnt exisit that is even more reason to be skeptical of it prior to spending 100's of hours on it.
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That is very interesting. I have quite a different experience and have seen OMM spoken about with a lot of skepticism. I also shadowed at Touro's OMM clinic and saw the preceptor teach OMM first hand and didn't perceive this.

Your logic is sound. 100s of hours is a lot if your just gaining the extra knowledge. That could be done in much fewer hours.

For me and the approximately hundred people I have seen treated the relief is usually temporary (weeks) and get better when treated periodically. For all this people to find relief is enough for me. I don't take personal experience to have any scientific merit I just know for a fact in my mind that it eases the pain for a while better than anything else I've tried.

The techniques have been through the rigors of the Scientific method. Muscle energy is essentially isometrics and that has tons of literature supporting it. There is plenty of literature out there. I suppose some people try to claim it can be used for ailments that it can't but I think if you stick to the basics you can definitely adjust people with poor posture.
 
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AspiringDoctorFish said:
That is very interesting. I have quite a different experience and have seen OMM spoken about with a lot of skepticism. I also shadowed at Touro's OMM clinic and saw the preceptor teach OMM first hand and didn't perceive this.

For me and the approximately hundred people I have seen treated the relief is usually temporary (weeks) and get better when treated periodically. Tha would be one hell of a placebo on a random sample of ~100 people (I shadowed OMM for a year). I don't take personal experience to have any scientific merit I just know for a fact in my mind that it eases the pain for a while better than anything else I've tried.

The techniques have been through the rigors of the Scientific method. Muscle energy is essentially isometrics and that has tons of literature supporting it. There is plenty of literature out there. I suppose some people try to claim it can be used for ailments that it can't but I think if you stick to the basics you can definitely adjust people with poor posture.
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I suppose give me a fool proof indication and maybe I can talk in more intelligent terms .
 
I am sorry if this has been asked previously, but I don't feel it is very obvious from their website:

"Basic Sciences curriculum offers the integrated systems courses in the preclinical curriculum where subject disciplines of cell biology, physiology, biochemistry, neuroscience, anatomy, microbiology, pharmacology, immunology and pathology are brought together seamlessly using theoretical and practical teaching methods that foster effective learning."

Doe they have a systems / organ based curriculum or not? I think this means they do...

EDIT: Never mind, found it. They do. Their website is hard to follow.
 
Accepted and put down the deposit! Very excited to have an acceptance so early
 
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Declined my acceptance so there will be a spot for one of you opening : )


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MedArtist said:
I am sorry if this has been asked previously, but I don't feel it is very obvious from their website:

"Basic Sciences curriculum offers the integrated systems courses in the preclinical curriculum where subject disciplines of cell biology, physiology, biochemistry, neuroscience, anatomy, microbiology, pharmacology, immunology and pathology are brought together seamlessly using theoretical and practical teaching methods that foster effective learning."

Doe they have a systems / organ based curriculum or not? I think this means they do...

EDIT: Never mind, found it. They do. Their website is hard to follow.
Click to expand...


1st year here--we start as subject based and switch very quickly to systems by the end of the 1st semester
 
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Just received my secondary here. Late in the game, but aiming for a quick turnaround!
 
II yesterday, signed up for December 12!
 
II this morning! LizzyM ~70. Got the "complete" email on 10/10

Edit: Fixed date. Also, interview scheduled for this Tuesday b/c I'm local \o/
 
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Ive been complete since 7/12 and still nothing
 
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Hi! I've never posted on SDN but figured I would add to this thread since there aren't too many contributors in case there are more lurkers like me who want to hear more updates!

Just got an II this morning, scheduled for Dec. 5 though there was an opening Nov. 7.
GPA 3.67 MCAT 510 OOS. Complete 9/22.

Also - anyone know of any hotels in the area with a free shuttle to campus? Or any travel/lodging advice in general?

Thanks!
 
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Could a current
Actitonin said:
1st year here--we start as subject based and switch very quickly to systems by the end of the 1st semester
Click to expand...

Another question if you don't mind. I struggle to see on the website what kind of opportunities are available at the school, such as research or community involvement through a student run clinic. What does the school offer?

Thank you!
 
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auuuz said:
Hi! I've never posted on SDN but figured I would add to this thread since there aren't too many contributors in case there are more lurkers like me who want to hear more updates!

Just got an II this morning, scheduled for Dec. 5 though there was an opening Nov. 7.
GPA 3.67 MCAT 510 OOS. Complete 9/22.

Also - anyone know of any hotels in the area with a free shuttle to campus? Or any travel/lodging advice in general?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Nice! I have the exact same stats as you, so this is pretty encouraging for myself :)
 
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anyone accepted from the 10/19 interview received their letter?
 
MedArtist said:
Could a current


Another question if you don't mind. I struggle to see on the website what kind of opportunities are available at the school, such as research or community involvement through a student run clinic. What does the school offer?

Thank you!
Click to expand...

Plenty of stuff. Most of my friends don't do research currently because we are still figuring out how to best manage our time, but there are certainly resources available. We have professors you can work with doing research on diabetes, HIV e.t.c. Someone else would be better to answer that. As far as getting involved in the community, we have a student run free clinic. We do a Berkely Suitcase Clinic as well, our Pediatric Club just did a mini-med school with an elementary school in Vallejo where they worked with kids, our Nutrition Club does a lot of things with education in the community as well. There's many more that I'm not mentioning here, but if you want to make an opportunity there's no problem with that as well.
 
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just submitted my secondary. woof, that one was long.
 
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Do I have any chance at this school? GPA 3.5 (bad grades freshman year but excellent upward trend), MCAT 505, lots of medical volunteering and work experience, international volunteer experience, international health major, Spanish minor, current EMT, live in the bay area. Submitted my supplemental back in June and still waiting for an interview....I love this school but are my numbers too low?
 
As a current student here I will say that if you are already of the opinion that you don't like OMM and don't "believe in it" then you do not want to go to this school. In fact you probably have no business applying to DO programs at all. I get that a lot of people apply DO as a "backup" to MD, which is fine, but you shouldn't get to take the spot of someone who is genuinely interested in the practice of osteopathic medicine.

Plus at TUCOM you are going to have to take OMM seriously if you want to pass so you might as well have a good attitude about it. I'm writing on this thread right now because I am procrastinating studying for an OPP test tomorrow morning...

All that said, I love this school, it is the most supportive academic environment I have ever been in, and they are definitely fans of nontraditional students. It is not just a numbers game here at all.

For those of you still waiting, Touro interviews through May and I know a lot of people in my class who got in very late, so don't give up hope until you've actually got a rejection! This is still considered fairly early in the application cycle for us.
 
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benlola33 said:
In fact you probably have no business applying to DO programs at all. I get that a lot of people apply DO as a "backup" to MD, which is fine, but you shouldn't get to take the spot of someone who is genuinely interested in the practice of osteopathic medicine.
Click to expand...

I'm glad you define yourself and all of osteopathic medicine exclusively by OMM - but there are lots of us who don't. I also didn't know we had to prescribe to and unconditionally accept every single aspect of medicine, and aren't free to question the validity of a small portion of our training, using available research and studies to come to our own conclusions.

Your post is outright ridiculous, talking about "taking the spot of someone genuinely interested"....isn't the practice of osteopathic medicine about the 4 tenets - and I don't see the word OMM anywhere in there. We are perfectly capable of understanding and believing in the core principals without having to unquestioningly believe in OMM.

Can you please tell me where is says we are required to use it in our practice as we move beyond school and into our career as well? Because surely I'll want to inform the wonderful DO physicians that I've worked with who don't use it in their practice that they shouldn't have gotten a spot in school.


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mavric1298 said:
I'm glad you define yourself and all of osteopathic medicine exclusively by OMM - but there are lots of us who don't. I also didn't know we had to prescribe to and unconditionally accept every single aspect of medicine, and aren't free to question the validity of a small portion of our training, using available research and studies to come to our own conclusions.

Your post is outright ridiculous, talking about "taking the spot of someone genuinely interested"....isn't the practice of osteopathic medicine about the 4 tenets - and I don't see the word OMM anywhere in there. We are perfectly capable of understanding and believing in the core principals without having to unquestioningly believe in OMM.

Can you please tell me where is says we are required to use it in our practice as we move beyond school and into our career as well? Because surely I'll want to inform the wonderful DO physicians that I've worked with who don't use it in their practice that they shouldn't have gotten a spot in school.


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Click to expand...

That is completely missing the point.... the point is that if you are going to attend an osteopathic school (especially this one) and you already intend on having a bad attitude about OMM, then you don't want to be at an osteopathic school. It is, at least at TUCOM, a pretty big part of the curriculum and you're going to have to at minimum have an open mind about it. You don't have to use it in the future and you don't even have to love it but if you are going to show up to a DO school having already drawn the solid conclusion that you think it's pointless/ invalid/ harmful, then you shouldn't go to a DO school, mostly for your own sanity.

Plus knowing the admissions process and the admissions board at this school I know that they take it pretty seriously and having a negative attitude towards osteopathic medicine and OMT isn't going to get you anywhere.

This is probably the last DO school in the country to go to if you hate OMT. Touro NY places significantly less emphasis on it than does CA. I think it is important that people know this before they decide to come here because it will be a big part of your life.
 
benlola33 said:
That is completely missing the point.... the point is that if you are going to attend an osteopathic school (especially this one) and you already intend on having a bad attitude about OMM, then you don't want to be at an osteopathic school. It is, at least at TUCOM, a pretty big part of the curriculum and you're going to have to at minimum have an open mind about it. You don't have to use it in the future and you don't even have to love it but if you are going to show up to a DO school having already drawn the solid conclusion that you think it's pointless/ invalid/ harmful, then you shouldn't go to a DO school, mostly for your own sanity.

Plus knowing the admissions process and the admissions board at this school I know that they take it pretty seriously and having a negative attitude towards osteopathic medicine and OMT isn't going to get you anywhere.

This is probably the last DO school in the country to go to if you hate OMT. Touro NY places significantly less emphasis on it than does CA. I think it is important that people know this before they decide to come here because it will be a big part of your life.
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Here is the thing. I know plenty of do's who have not used omm since graduating. Most of them could care less about it. I particularly don't care much about it. I have an open mind and I care about evidence. I have an acceptance at this school. If it was the only school I had an acceptance at I would attend. Do what is necessary to complete omm requirements and move on with my life. If new evidence surfaced indicating omm was beneficial I would happily use it in my practice. That being said, not taking everything at face value is not a terrible attribute to have as a physician. No one deserves a seat in med school , you earn it. And I earned mine, I am also free to believe whatever it is I want to. The school obviously wasn't good at determining my attitude about omm. I am sure there are plenty of others out there in your school like me as well.
 
libertyyne said:
Here is the thing. I know plenty of do's who have not used omm since graduating. Most of them could care less about it. I particularly don't care much about it. I have an open mind and I care about evidence. I have an acceptance at this school. If it was the only school I had an acceptance at I would attend. Do what is necessary to complete omm requirements and move on with my life. If new evidence surfaced indicating omm was beneficial I would happily use it in my practice. That being said, not taking everything at face value is not a terrible attribute to have as a physician. No one deserves a seat in med school , you earn it. And I earned mine, I am also free to believe whatever it is I want to. The school obviously wasn't good at determining my attitude about omm. I am sure there are plenty of others out there in your school like me as well.
Click to expand...

Ok, I am not trying to hijack this thread so I will just say I'm sorry my original post came off so aggressive. I think it is perfectly OK to come in skeptical (or leave skeptical, or whatever). My only point was, if you really hate it (as some people do), then you probably won't be happy at TUCOM, and I can't speak to any other school but if they emphasize it there then you might not be happy either. You may never use it again after you graduate, but they're gonna make you do a lot of it during school, and med school is hard enough already without having a topic that makes you miserable hanging over your head.

Definitely should have chosen words more carefully in the OP. This is a super competitive school and you are right if you earned a spot here then that is impressive and you deserve it.

Some of us will be monitoring this board periodically to answer any questions you guys might have. Otherwise good luck to everyone and just make sure you weigh your options carefully!
 
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yumpopink said:
Accepted!!! GPA 3.6, MCAT 511, IS
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Also accepted today! 3.6, 514, IS. Now to decide whether I want to go here or AZCOM. Anyone have any insight that can help with my decision?
 
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esso said:
Also accepted today! 3.6, 514, IS. Now to decide whether I want to go here or AZCOM. Anyone have any insight that can help with my decision?
Click to expand...

~
 
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When Osteopathy was originally founded, the founder shocked the world by how efficacious his treatments were.
His early students had a similar result and the Osteopathic field was able to get legal recognition, whereas the other existing methods of medicine practiced by many did not.

Once osteopathic medicine granted it's providers complete rights as physicians a schism began to develop within the field. This happened because many individuals began trying to become D.O.'s so that they'd have an alternate pathway towards becoming physicians, not because of the fact they cared about Osteopathic Manipulation.
Overtime, this faction became the majority of the field. Simultaneously, a smaller number of D.O.'s felt very strongly that Osteopathic Manipulation was important and it was unconsciousable to turn one's back on it.

Certain individuals I know who wished to follow the Osteopathic Manipulation vision of being a D.O. ended up at a D.O. school they felt had a very cursory examination of OMM, and reported to me that they were very bothered by the fact the school felt like a glorified M.D. school for students who were not academically competitive enough to go D.O. and more than one told me they wished they had gotten into Touro CA.

Equally, people I know who dislike the Osteopathic Manipulation facet of being a D.O. have major issues with Touro's CA's focus, and this can include still being vocally resentful about it years after graduating.

The faction of D.O.'s who feel very strongly about the importance of Osteopathic Manipulation are heavily concentrated at Touro, much more than a typical D.O. school. A few faculty have told me they gave up a significant portion of their lives to support Touro California being able to serve that purpose towards the Osteopathic field. At the end of the day, they don't have an expectation everyone who comes there will be a diehard follower from the first day. They are simply hoping for people to be open minded enough that when exposed to OMM consistently working for patients, but by the end of the 4th year, they will be open to considering it.

The big issue comes up when anti OMM zealots show up who insist that OMM is quackery that has no basis for ever being taught in school and fuss about it. If you fall into that camp, I really can't fathom why you'd want to go to this school.

On one hand, it's not to your advantage. There are easier to get into D.O. schools without a strong OMM focus. The OMM focus here is an extra commitment you have to take on by being at the school. If you are constantly in opposition to what you have to do, it's both extremely draining and a waste of your time. The amount you can learn from the OMM will also accordingly be noticeably diminished.

On the flip side, I view it as extremely disrespectful both to more interested students and the faculty. I realize the whole med school process is super competitive and encourages cut throat gunner behavior where you only care about yourself, but at least from my moral system, if I knew I had active contempt for what the school had to offer, and conversely, by choosing to take the spot, I was denying someone else the chance to get in that really wanted to be there, I'd just feel like an awful person. I'm a bit less selfish than the average human in society, so my judgement might be a bit skewed, but in this case, it seems like a really clear cut choice to let go of a negligible benefit (going here over another school you'd fit in more at) over crushing someone else hopes and dreams. Forgetting the pools of pre meds, the OMM faculty do so much work beyond what is required of them to support the program, and I think that is something you should be at least somewhat respectful of.

Anyways good luck to all! Touro's about a lot more than OMM and it's not the only thing they look for in applicants. I just choose the school for that reason because it was my personal #1.
 
II last week. Signed up for December 6!
 
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It's funny that the one person on here writing about "Anti OMM zealots", when all that was said was that several of us question the practice based on the current evidence, and were open to change/modify our current standing on the issue if the science directed us in that direction, appears to be an OMM zealot. Kettle meet pot

And I'm sorry, but get off your "is it extremely disrespectful" and "i'm less selfsh" high horse. Not everyone loves pathology, but we all will still have to do it and learn it. By your logic anyone that doesn't like, or questions some part of medicine that a school teaches shouldn't be at that school. We don't have to love OMM, and if the school is a good fit for us for other reasons, you have ZERO right to judge why anyone chooses to go there or not. You even went so far to contradict yourself in your last paragraph, "Touro's about a lot more than OMM".....exactly, so stop trying to make people feel bad about their personal views. If we were accepted (which I was) it was based on our merits, and we don't need to be spoken down to because we don't have the same opinion on a single subject as you.




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Too late to fill out a secondary with my stats? Late and from FL so might be at a disadvantage location-wise...
 
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