TCOM over MSU-CHM (MD)?

mrpuff26 said:

Hi,

Do y'all think it would be crazy for me to choose TCOM over MSU-CHM (it's a MD school). I technically would be instate for both places (weird, I know) but MSU is still ~3x more expensive. I really want to go to TCOM, but my parents seem to want me to go to MSU because it is an MD school and they think I will have better residency choices. I do also like TCOM because of the rotations since MSU does their so-called 'community based rotations' at smaller hospitals. I want to still take into consideration my parents comments since they will be paying for my tuition/living expenses/etc. So, I really don't know what to do at this moment...what do y'all think?

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Your parents would rather you pay 3x as much to go to MSU? I would take TCOM without thinking twice, but that's just me. I huge part of my decision, aside from the extremely cheap tuition, would be that I'd rather be in a warmer climate. Since you're parents will pay the tuition regardless, I suppose that factor doesn't really apply to you. But if it were me (not saying you should do this) I would go to TCOM as it was my first choice before doing any interviews (never interviewed there, BTW -- non resident).

I thought you haven't interviewed at MSU CHM yet.

TCOM is a fantastic school with board scores on par with MD schools (94% pass on the USMLE). They seem to be very well-respected in Texas. Plus, Fort Worth is a very cool city. I would definitely go with TCOM, if you felt more comfortable there.

Of course, I'm biased. I chose TCOM myself.

mrpuff26 said:

Hi,

Do y'all think it would be crazy for me to choose TCOM over MSU-CHM (it's a MD school). I technically would be instate for both places (weird, I know) but MSU is still ~3x more expensive. I really want to go to TCOM, but my parents seem to want me to go to MSU because it is an MD school and they think I will have better residency choices. I do also like TCOM because of the rotations since MSU does their so-called 'community based rotations' at smaller hospitals. I want to still take into consideration my parents comments since they will be paying for my tuition/living expenses/etc. So, I really don't know what to do at this moment...what do y'all think?

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Take that spot at CHM, trust me, it'll work out much better for you in terms of your future prospects, and I am a DO with no regrets.

Sam, are you currently in an osteopathic school? Your statement makes it sound like you're a practicing physician, yet you are asking questions about applications to MD schools for the 2007 cycle?

MLT2MT2DO said:

Sam, are you currently in an osteopathic school? Your statement makes it sound like you're a practicing physician, yet you are asking questions about applications to MD schools for the 2007 cycle?

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Yeah, I am a 3rd year, will go through the match next year. Shouldn't have said a DO but rather a DO student.

MSU CHM Hands Down

Sam212 said:

Take that spot at CHM, trust me, it'll work out much better for you in terms of your future prospects, and I am a DO with no regrets.

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Can you elaborate a bit more on your statement? You say MSUCHM would be better for future prospects, but you're a DO students stating you have no regrets (kinda get the impression that none of your future prospects got cut off being DO). So why one over the other?

Disinence2 said:

MSU CHM Hands Down

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Hands up! Why MSU?

Whew, I don't know if I'd pay 3x more for the MD ... especially when the option is TCOM.

JaggerPlate said:

Whew, I don't know if I'd pay 3x more for the MD ... especially when the option is TCOM.

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MSU i think is 60k the first year. Afterwards it goes to instate tuition i think.
But yah.. Its a hard choice between a great DO school and a low tier MD school with a high price tag.
I'd go for Tcom personal... 13k a year = very little debt.

a

13k a year??? omg!!! i'd be on that in a sec even if the deal involved having the letters after my name be Bass Caster, L.O.S.E.R. for the rest of my life.

MSU is only $26954 a year (OP said he was in state). This is less expensive than just about any private school and most public schools. Yeah, it's more expensive than TCOM, but that's only because all Texas schools are dirt cheap. In the grand scheme of things, the $13,000 or so difference per year will mean nothing when you consider your lifetime earning potential as a physician. Now, if we were talking about a $40,000 difference, that would be different, but even if you go to MSU, your debt will be far below most medical students

Remember, even if you go to the 'worst' allopathic school, it's still possible to land a residency at Mass Gen or UCSF. With an increase in the number of graduating medical students and a nearly constant number of residency spots, you want to do everything to make sure that you are as competitive as possible. Also, not all allopathic hospitals allow DO's to rotate (VSAS), but you won't face this problem as an MD student (unless it's for a rotation that requires a minimum USLME I score), and if you are aiming for an ACGME residency, you'll have to take COMLEX and USLME. Just remember, just because you don't see a difference between MD and DO doesn't mean that program directors won't

Why does cost really matter if the parents are happy to foot the bill for the more expensive school? ... I mean, TCOM is a lot cheaper (and Fort Worth cost of living is very low), but... if it's free either way, why is it part of the equation?

I'd like to hear advice from an attending or someone who's practicing already as opposed to medical students most of whom haven't entered the match yet. $60,000 vs. $20,000 per year is a huge difference regardless of who's paying. Take cost into consideration and go where you'd be the happiest, most comfortable, and perform the best for the next 4 years. Now is not the time for you to calculate how much you will be making as a plastic surgeon and seeing if it would offset the cost of paying $60,000/year. Now is the time for you to schedule second looks at both schools and consider things like curriculum, clinical affiliations, rotations (rural requirement crap?), cost, climate, and so forth. Talk to recent graduates of both schools and ask about their experience at their respective schools (don't ask them to choose for you). If the letters after your name matter to you personally, then throw that into the equation. But don't let anyone's opinion on this forum (including mine) influence your decision. Take it from somebody who has been through the entire process as a DO - if you set yourself apart from the rest of the applicants, doors will not be closed when it comes to residency.

mrpuff26 said:

On a random aside, Daedra, are your initials S.H.? I'm in TCOM facebook group and I have a sneaking suspicion that that is you...

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They could be... but that would be telling .

chinocochino said:

. Also, if you do want to become a plastic surgeon/dermatologist, etc, by going MD you would have greater professional satisfaction.

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Wow ... just wow. Please, give as much advice as possible.



I can't even rant right now about how the OP won't have the grades for ACGME integrated PRS or derm, how I've heard multiple DO students say going DO specialized easier because the PD directors were searching for different things (ie: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9230663&postcount=41), how I happened to stumble upon a PCOM surgery residency site the other night, and saw two surgeons in the same class going PRS at PCOM, how it makes absolutely no sense to say you will have more satisfaction, ETC ETC ETC.

GOD this site is making me loose my mind. Seriously, I don't even know if I can handle anymore pre-meds giving advice, people arguing so far above their pay grade, people complaining about having to do OMM, pre meds complaining bc the DO radiologist they shadowed didn't introduce himself as an osteopath and manipulate patients, ETC. This site is literally killing me.

mrpuff26 said:

I know how difficult PRS or Derm residencies are to obtain, so those were not even in my consideration when trying to pick between these two schools.

I appreciate everyone taking the time to express their opinions on this forum, but I have already contacted my dad's co-workers wife as well as a family friend's son whom both, coincidentally, graduated from TCOM. I also want the perspective from someone who is a practicing physician that graduated from TCOM.

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I am sure if you contact the schools, they will put you in touch with current and or past students. Nice that your parents are helping. Mine couldn't even pitch in for interviews, so I didn't get to go on all of mine. Just be grateful you have the choices you do and go where it feels right. Don't just go where your family want you to either.

JaggerPlate said:

Wow ... just wow. Please, give as much advice as possible.



I can't even rant right now about how the OP won't have the grades for ACGME integrated PRS or derm, how I've heard multiple DO students say going DO specialized easier because the PD directors were searching for different things (ie: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9230663&postcount=41), how I happened to stumble upon a PCOM surgery residency site the other night, and saw two surgeons in the same class going PRS at PCOM, how it makes absolutely no sense to say you will have more satisfaction, ETC ETC ETC.

GOD this site is making me loose my mind. Seriously, I don't even know if I can handle anymore pre-meds giving advice, people arguing so far above their pay grade, people complaining about having to do OMM, pre meds complaining bc the DO radiologist they shadowed didn't introduce himself as an osteopath and manipulate patients, ETC. This site is literally killing me.

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Can I get an AMEN!

JaggerPlate said:

Wow ... just wow. Please, give as much advice as possible.



I can't even rant right now about how the OP won't have the grades for ACGME integrated PRS or derm, how I've heard multiple DO students say going DO specialized easier because the PD directors were searching for different things (ie: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9230663&postcount=41), how I happened to stumble upon a PCOM surgery residency site the other night, and saw two surgeons in the same class going PRS at PCOM, how it makes absolutely no sense to say you will have more satisfaction, ETC ETC ETC.

GOD this site is making me loose my mind. Seriously, I don't even know if I can handle anymore pre-meds giving advice, people arguing so far above their pay grade, people complaining about having to do OMM, pre meds complaining bc the DO radiologist they shadowed didn't introduce himself as an osteopath and manipulate patients, ETC. This site is literally killing me.

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... I still don't want to have anyone perform or practice OMM on me. I like my bones where they are.

Jagger, embrace the insanity that is pre-med SDN.

mrpuff26 said:

The cost is still bothering me a little bit though. My parents paid for my undergrad (~40,000/year)

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MSU-CHM would be around 13k/year cheaper than your undergrad, TCOM just happens to be dirt cheap as a Texas school. Cost shouldn't be a factor here IMO.

What were your impressions of the two schools? Did one seem like a better fit? They're completely different environments... a large school in the frigid north vs. a smaller one in Texas.

Where is your family, ie support network, located? I think it comes down to more than just $$, although wanting to minimize the cost to your parents is laudable. Having family members that you can depend on when things get rough may be invaluable.

As far as quality of education, I think the point is moot. Both will give you an excellent foundation to build on. Regarding any advantages/disadvantages that the initials give you, I'll leave that argument for the actual practitioners with real-world experience.

mrpuff26 said:

The cost is still bothering me a little bit though. My parents paid for my undergrad (~40,000/year) and I kinda don't want to do that to them again. I really do love TCOM more, but I want to make sure that I have all the residency choices to me when the time comes. On the other hand, I also really want to learn OMM...

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Well it sounds like from this post that TCOM would be a good fit. If you want to learn OMM, the best place is still at a DO school. DO does not close any opportunities for residencies. Maybe it will not lead to a spot at some prestigious university, but does it really matter? The osteopathic hospital across town from me has residencies in derm, ortho, EM, to name a few, and I would take the bet that you probably have never heard of it. Are you going to get a worse education because of that? Naw, you'll be fine. Personally I am going to choose MSUCHM (likely) or one of the other MD schools I got into over the DO school I was accepted to because I got a much better feeling there, and I am not interested in OMM, plus taking advice of some of the attendings I shadowed and work with at the non-osteopathic hospital on this side of town.

jaggerplate said:

wow ... Just wow. Please, give as much advice as possible.



I can't even rant right now about how the op won't have the grades for acgme integrated prs or derm, how i've heard multiple do students say going do specialized easier because the pd directors were searching for different things (ie: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9230663&postcount=41), how i happened to stumble upon a pcom surgery residency site the other night, and saw two surgeons in the same class going prs at pcom, how it makes absolutely no sense to say you will have more satisfaction, etc etc etc.

God this site is making me loose my mind. Seriously, i don't even know if i can handle anymore pre-meds giving advice, people arguing so far above their pay grade, people complaining about having to do omm, pre meds complaining bc the do radiologist they shadowed didn't introduce himself as an osteopath and manipulate patients, etc. This site is literally killing me.

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x2

Everglide said:

MSU-CHM would be around 13k/year cheaper than your undergrad, TCOM just happens to be dirt cheap as a Texas school. Cost shouldn't be a factor here IMO.

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More solid advice from yet another pre-med.

/sarcasm

mrpuff26 said:

The reason I am hesitating going to MSU is because they have old facilities (TCOM just completed their new building) and have community-based rotations (ie-smaller cities, smaller hospitals). I like TCOM because of their integration of technology into the education.

My family is in Texas, but since I graduated from a school in Michigan, I know plenty of people in the area...so having a support network wouldn't really be a problem.

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I believe the rule on SDN is that MD is the end all, be all. You need to be careful, the simple fact you are even contemplating choosing DO over MD may be grounds for getting your SDN account banned.

Truthfully it sounds like you're sold on TCOM, go forth and prosper...I know I would if I had Texas residency.

MLT2MT2DO said:

I believe the rule on SDN is that MD is the end all, be all. You need to be careful, the simple fact you are even contemplating choosing DO over MD may be grounds for getting your SDN account banned.
.

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You do know that the person who started SDN is a DO right?

Emerald84 said:

Can I get an AMEN!

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Amen

chinocochino said:

...by going MD you would have greater professional satisfaction.

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Wow... The MD initials do everything now! They wash your car, do your laundry, and single handedly bring you the only professional satisfaction that you will ever need! Those things are amazing! Everyone knows that the DO initials will bring you nothing but heartache and shame. You will be barely considered a medical professional, let alone a doctor!

Almost every doctor or patient that you talk to DOES NOT CARE what initials come behind your name. They only care about how good of a doctor you are! If you think that you will get a better education at college X vs college Y, then go there! Almost every single school in the US will give you an excellent medical education. If you like the program at TCOM over MSUCHM, then you should choose TCOM!

PS....Sorry went off the deep end there for a moment! I wish you the best of luck with you decision! Hope you enjoyed my 2 cents on the whole situation!

a

OP, no one can tell you the correct process for selecting your school. What is important to you may not be important to them and vice versa. That being said, think about a few things:

1) Which school do you think you will be happiest at for the next four years? If you aren't happy, you can't put in the hours to do as well as possible.

2) What location did you like the best? Are you going to miss the winters in MI or are you ready to be rid of them?

3) Do you see one school as providing you with more educational opportunities in line with your career goals?

There are a lot more factors to go into this decision, but I'm willing to guess that after those three issues are addressed you'll have settled on a school.

Just my $0.02.

See my PMs

chinocochino said:

Would you want a greater opportunity to do any specialty you wish or not? Just look at the statistics; they don't lie.

The truth hurts, but deny it if you will. And hey, I probably will be attending a DO school but I am realistic. There is nothing wrong with taking those rose-colored glasses off and seeing how things really are. I'm not going to offer any more advice to ignorant/illogical people.

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And who better to give advice than someone who hasn't set foot in a medical schol yet, be it osteopathic or allopathic. I'm sure everyone here is bummed that a pre-med won't give them any more advice on the medical field

J1515 said:

And who better to give advice than someone who hasn't set foot in a medical schol yet, be it osteopathic or allopathic. I'm sure everyone here is bummed that a pre-med won't give them any more advice on the medical field

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LOL Naw he knows WAY more than you do, he's giving the OP some insightful information about their future.

serenade said:

You do know that the person who started SDN is a DO right?

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I sure do, which puts my sarcastic remark even further out in left field. Just the way I like it.

J1515 said:

More solid advice from yet another pre-med.

/sarcasm

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Considering his parents are going to cover it and his parents covered an undergrad education that was more expensive than either med school, I see it as a non-issue.

I didn't say cost was never an issue for anyone.

JaggerPlate said:

Whew, I don't know if I'd pay 3x more for the MD ... especially when the option is TCOM.

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This link has a match list from MSU from 2006. I didnt feel like hunting a more recent one down http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=269008

It blows TCOM out of the water.

WNT Signaling said:

Remember, even if you go to the 'worst' allopathic school, it's still possible to land a residency at Mass Gen or UCSF. With an increase in the number of graduating medical students and a nearly constant number of residency spots, you want to do everything to make sure that you are as competitive as possible.

Also, not all allopathic hospitals allow DO's to rotate (VSAS), but you won't face this problem as an MD student (unless it's for a rotation that requires a minimum USLME I score), and if you are aiming for an ACGME residency, you'll have to take COMLEX and USLME. Just remember, just because you don't see a difference between MD and DO doesn't mean that program directors won't

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Note the person who landed Brigham and Women's IM in the match list above. That is probably the most impressive match on that list, even better than the 2 derm matches. If you didn't realize, Brigham and women's is Harvard.

VSAS is relatively new and has become a huge thorn in the sides of DO students.

ruiner said:

DO does not close any opportunities for residencies. Maybe it will not lead to a spot at some prestigious university, but does it really matter? The osteopathic hospital across town from me has residencies in derm, ortho, EM, to name a few, and I would take the bet that you probably have never heard of it. Are you going to get a worse education because of that? Naw, you'll be fine. Personally I am going to choose MSUCHM (likely) or one of the other MD schools I got into over the DO school I was accepted to because I got a much better feeling there, and I am not interested in OMM, plus taking advice of some of the attendings I shadowed and work with at the non-osteopathic hospital on this side of town.

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I can tell you that is just not true. You even touch on that later in your post talking about limiting your chances at certain programs.

And it matters what residency you go to. If you want to be a Gastroenterologist or a Cardiologist, or a Oncologist or an infectious disease doc or an allergist, or one of a dozen others, you have to get a residency and then get a fellowship. I can tell you for a fact, that the residency you go to makes a huge difference in whether or not you match into your fellowship- especially if you want to do something competitive like GI or Cards.

mrpuff26 said:

The reason I am hesitating going to MSU is because they have old facilities (TCOM just completed their new building) and have community-based rotations (ie-smaller cities, smaller hospitals). I like TCOM because of their integration of technology into the education.

My family is in Texas, but since I graduated from a school in Michigan, I know plenty of people in the area...so having a support network wouldn't really be a problem.

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The facilities you should be worried about are not the buildings for the first 2 years. You should be worried about the hospital and the kind of pathology the hospital sees.

Instatewaiter said:

This link has a match list from MSU from 2006. I didnt feel like hunting a more recent one down http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=269008

It blows TCOM out of the water.

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Matchlists are worthless and do not tell you about a school. This has been explained to you already in another thread by people who have been through the match. You don't know how many people were interested in derm or any other field and therefore can't say what % achieved their desired field. There are too many variables between each indivual applicant and there is never the "all other things being equal" situation where a matchlist would tell you anything. Whether or not you rotated with a program and the PD liked you is more important that your school's name.

Instatewaiter said:

Note the person who landed Brigham and Women's IM in the match list above. That is probably the most impressive match on that list, even better than the 2 derm matches. If you didn't realize, Brigham and women's is Harvard.

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Harvard is not the be all end all of medicine. People throw around the name Harvard as a place you should strive to go to for residency but you never see anybody post their experience there about great teaching or diverse pathology. Not saying it's not a good residency, but I find that interesting. The appeal of name-brand usually goes away once one enters medical school and people start worrying more about what the best fit is for them. For pre-meds who feel the desire to attend a big name residency, I can speak from experience that Hopkins and Yale both interview and accept DOs.

Instatewaiter said:

VSAS is relatively new and has become a huge thorn in the sides of DO students.

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Not a reason to avoid DO schools. You just have to contact the schools individually. Slightly annoying, but it's the way it's always been done. Hospitals that use VSAS have made an exception up to this point in allowing DO students to apply separately.

Instatewaiter said:

I can tell you that is just not true. You even touch on that later in your post talking about limiting your chances at certain programs.

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And as someone who has gone through the DO residency matching process, I can tell you he is correct that it doesn't close any doors for residency. This is what you don't seem to understand. Your life goal is to practice medicine in a certain field, not "I must attend Harvard or else this battle is worthless." Much like medical school, you pick the residency where you see yourself as the best fit for the next 3-6 years. If it happens to be a top 20, 30, 40, or 50, or even 100, it doesn't matter. It's where you will be the happiest and fit in. This does not have to be Harvard or Columbia. Hopkins or Yale or any of the other hundreds of allo or osteo IM residencies can suit you just fine

Instatewaiter said:

And it matters what residency you go to. If you want to be a Gastroenterologist or a Cardiologist, or a Oncologist or an infectious disease doc or an allergist, or one of a dozen others, you have to get a residency and then get a fellowship. I can tell you for a fact, that the residency you go to makes a huge difference in whether or not you match into your fellowship- especially if you want to do something competitive like GI or Cards.

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You do realize that fellowships exist outside of Harvard and Columbia, right? There are plenty of so-called DO friendly residencies in the Northeast who have in house fellowships and take their own.

Instatewaiter said:

The facilities you should be worried about are not the buildings for the first 2 years. You should be worried about the hospital and the kind of pathology the hospital sees.

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Facilities and curriculum are absolutely part of what the OP should be concerned with, as well as clinical affiliates during 3rd and 4th year.

Hey well the real answer is that if you don't go to MSUCHM you wont get to go to school with me.

As for the buildings, the Secchia Center will be open this fall.

J1515 said:

Matchlists are worthless and do not tell you about a school.

And as someone who has gone through the DO residency matching process, I can tell you he is correct that it doesn't close any doors for residency. This is what you don't seem to understand. Your life goal is to practice medicine in a certain field, not "I must attend Harvard or else this battle is worthless."

You do realize that fellowships exist outside of Harvard and Columbia, right? There are plenty of so-called DO friendly residencies in the Northeast who have in house fellowships and take their own

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Ok so you say match lists are worthless. despite the fact that they can tell you a lot (like if a school never sends anyone to well known programs) let's assume they mean nothing like you say and move on.

Let's look for DOs in the well respected internal medicine residencies- a very non-competitive specialty. If what you are saying is true, there should be DOs there. Here's a list of the top

Columbia- O DOs http://www.columbiamedicine.org/education/r_staff.shtml

UCSF- 0 DOs http://medicine.ucsf.edu/education/residency/current/r3s.html (just R3s, look at interns and R2s on the left)

Johns Hopkins- 0 DOs
I have their resident list from interviews, it is not posted online.

Yale- 0 DOs
http://residency.med.yale.edu/traditional/housestaff.html

UAB- 0 DO
http://im.dom.uab.edu/our-people/

MGH- 0 DOs
B&W- 0 DOs.
BIDMC- 0 DOs
http://www.hms.harvard.edu/hfdfp/

Chicago- O DOs
http://imr.bsd.uchicago.edu/roster.html

Cornell- 0 DOs
http://www.cornellmedicine.com/education/medicine_house_staff/index.html

Vanderbilt- 0 DOs
https://medicine.mc.vanderbilt.edu/resources/documents/housestaff/PGY1-4-09.pdf

UNC- 0 DOs
http://medicine.med.unc.edu/education/residency-training/meet-the-residents

Southwestern- 1 DO
http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/utsw/cda/dept26481/files/93931.html

Penn and Duke dont have it online and I dont have my sheets from those programs with me.

You get the idea. There are thousands of residents in the above lists and a single DO. For reference there are 15-20 students from my school among those schools. My schools is considered an unranked, "low tier" MD school.

Certain fellowships are hard to get. For instance, Cardiology and GI are very, very competitive. Good luck matching if you don't go to a well known program. Good luck getting into a well known program from a DO school.
See where I am going with this?

I really don't understand why some people fight hand over fist about this when the data are astoundingly obvious.

Get READY TO RUMBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We have DO in one corner and MD in the other lets see who wins!!!!!!!!!!! FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Instatewaiter said:

Ok so you say match lists are worthless. despite the fact that they can tell you a lot (like if a school never sends anyone to well known programs) let's assume they mean nothing like you say and move on.

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You sure do frequent this forum alot for an MD student