Addressing PE

[AnatomyGrey12]

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It also doesn't address the fact that some will have PE and some won't for rank lists.

I mean, there will be MD's with CS and many without...

 

[12jas]

I mean, there will be MD's with CS and many without...

True. Now I am left with the choice of taking it or pushing it back to after rank lists. I think if testing resumes in September and the bulk of us get tested before rank lists it is gonna hurt those that don't have it. Still need to keep pushing for this to be cancelled IMO.

 

[TXKnight]

Yeah they say that the suspension won't be a reason for delay in licensure, but I don't think they have come out and said they won't ever take CS. It's all speculation about that, mainly because the NBME probably doesn't even know what they are going to do lololol

you're correct, I couldn't find it either. I guess not even them know what will happen

 

[TXKnight]

This doesn't feel like a victory to me. I don't trust my COM to let me graduate without the PE even if COCA says it is okay. It also doesn't address the fact that some will have PE and some won't for rank lists. I am currently scheduled in September and even the smallest risk of failing this exam seems unacceptable but on the back end I don't want to be not ranked and seen as a liability. I think this is good news and clears the way for NBOME to cancel but just does't feel like we won anything.

It sure doesn't feel like a victory. I'd say this should be the START of the conversation, blinding PE scores for the match sounds more reasonable. I mean most DO's will not even have scores by ROL

 

[Scrubs101]

Know where we can find a list of those states? Might rethink my app strategy lmao

Unfortunately, they're states where a lot of DO programs are and a lot of us will end up in. Think MI and PA are two of em

 

[SurgDoc95]

Unfortunately, they're states where a lot of DO programs are and a lot of us will end up in. Think MI and PA are two of em

Yeah I just looked them up and it's not going to be feasible for where I'll likely end up for residency. Dagnubit!

 

[njtrimed]

Yeah they say that the suspension won't be a reason for delay in licensure, but I don't think they have come out and said they won't ever take CS. It's all speculation about that, mainly because the NBME probably doesn't even know what they are going to do lololol

I just can't imagine how either of these organizations plans to accommodate TWO classes trying to take CS or PE. I booked CS in December or January and the earliest date I could get was September- and that was a "normal" year. I have no idea how PE compares to CS, but CS really was a joke. I guess I can understand using it to screen FMGs for ability to communicate effectively in English, but there's really no reason US MDs to take it, or for DOs to have an equivalent.

Regardless, I'm glad this is moving in the right direction for your class. As if the whole match process isn't stressful enough, this was an absolute debacle. Hopefully the class of 2021 will never actually have to deal with PE/CS! (Even better if it actually disappeared going forward, but we all know that's not going to happen!)

 

[Neopolymath]

DO's will be seen as a liability for sure by PDs. Who wants a PGY1 that may fail PE in the middle of intern year?

The PDs I've interacted with don't care. They lose a body from an off-service rotation for a day. It's no big deal aside from very small programs that are actually resident run (as opposed to labeled as resident run for advertising purposes.)

 

[Alkaidius]

Don’t know how to feel, on the one hand I’m glad they actually came to a timely decision that wasn’t *****ic, on the other it still doesn’t address the question of safety. CNN is showing rising COVID (to no ones surprise). I can still see continuous delays until we have to compete with 2022 for spots lol.

 

[TXKnight]

The PDs I've interacted with don't care. They lose a body from an off-service rotation for a day. It's no big deal aside from very small programs that are actually resident run (as opposed to labeled as resident run for advertising purposes.)

Thank you for your input! along the same line, how do you suspect PD's will view applicants that have a fail on their PE/CS and retake pending due to delays ? Do you believe this is a liability come ERAS? I tend to think it is. I'm schedule for March lol

 

[SurgDoc95]

Thank you for your input! along the same line, how do you suspect PD's will view applicants that have a fail on their PE/CS and retake pending due to delays ? Do you believe this is a liability come ERAS? I tend to think it is. I'm schedule for March lol

The next big push should be to get CS/PE off of ERAS

 

[12jas]

The next big push should be to get CS/PE off of ERAS

I agree. I think this would be a huge victory... takes care of the potential bias and protects those unfortunate souls that are stuck with a fail and no retake. Those are the people we really need to keep up the pressure for. I could not imagine being stuck in that situation right now. All of your hard work screwed over by the NBOME. So who has the power to blind it on ERAS? AAMC? How do we go about petitioning this to happen?

 

[Alkaidius]

Would absolutely help with petitioning. But also, with regards to scheduling, what’s the latest you can take Level 3? I’m only seeing recommendations to take it after 6 months. No hard deadlines. Is it just by the end of residency? If delays continue to cause problems this is the kind of information that needs to be out there so competition between classes doesn’t become a thing.

 

[TXKnight]

I agree. I think this would be a huge victory... takes care of the potential bias and protects those unfortunate souls that are stuck with a fail and no retake. Those are the people we really need to keep up the pressure for. I could not imagine being stuck in that situation right now. All of your hard work screwed over by the NBOME. So who has the power to blind it on ERAS? AAMC? How do we go about petitioning this to happen?

I believe the COSGP survey asks that. Have you filled out the survey yet? if not do it and share

 

[TXKnight]

Would absolutely help with petitioning. But also, with regards to scheduling, what’s the latest you can take Level 3? I’m only seeing recommendations to take it after 6 months. No hard deadlines. Is it just by the end of residency? If delays continue to cause problems this is the kind of information that needs to be out there so competition between classes doesn’t become a thing.

Gotta have level3/step three by end of intern year, otherwise no PGY2

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

I would have much preferred to rub someone's back in April to NEVER think about OMM again. Now it's gonna kill my morning mellow at the end of 4th year or god forbid when I'm an intern doing real medicine. I was really looking forward to getting that last OMM thing over with so they couldn't bother me anymore lol. (And yeah I'm not worried about a few questions on level 3)

Yeah... i was hoping to take the PE and go get lobotomized in the area of my brain that OMM is stored in. Never want to do it again.

 

[Alkaidius]

Gotta have level3/step three by end of intern year, otherwise no PGY2

Figured, hopefully potential future delays won’t affect this.

Don’t think I’m ready to let Gimpel breath and wash his hands of the matter yet. Not only cause I’m spiteful, but also because we do need them to coordinate with ERAS, and make sure he knows we haven’t forgotten the, y’know, blatant endangerment of students and public health for $$$$.

 

[Neopolymath]

Thank you for your input! along the same line, how do you suspect PD's will view applicants that have a fail on their PE/CS and retake pending due to delays ? Do you believe this is a liability come ERAS? I tend to think it is. I'm schedule for March lol

No clue, man. I'm a rising 4th year like most of you. I think it's a vulnerable situation but might be overlooked given how many people haven't taken it in the first place. The correct action is no ERAS spot for CS/PE. Boom. Crisis averted.

 

[Neopolymath]

Gotta have level3/step three by end of intern year, otherwise no PGY2

Depends entirely on state.

 

[Prehealth1011]

As a class of 2021 DO student trying to use the STEP 3 loophole (Yes i'm still on this)..
When do i have to take STEP 3 by? Is it still by the end of PGY1 (2022)? I wanna have it done before NBME decides to switch it back.

 

[Scrubs101]

As a class of 2021 DO student trying to use the STEP 3 loophole (Yes i'm still on this)..
When do i have to take STEP 3 by? Is it still by the end of PGY1 (2022)? I wanna have it done before NBME decides to switch it back.

I dont have an answer for you, but my plan if this loophole actually worked and I match into a state without a separate osteopathic licensing req then id plan on taking it q4 of fourth year. Lots of variables though so im not gonna get my hopes up about it for the time being.

edit: jk cant take step 3 before graduation, so between grad/intern year start

 

[Neopolymath]

I dont have an answer for you, but my plan if this loophole actually worked and I match into a state without a separate osteopathic licensing req then id plan on taking it q4 of fourth year. Lots of variables though so im not gonna get my hopes up about it for the time being.

You have to have your school send in the info saying you graduated to sit for step 3 fyi. You can't take it early anymore.

 

[Scrubs101]

You have to have your school send in the info saying you graduated to sit for step 3 fyi. You can't take it early anymore.

oh dang, good looks didnt even know this was a thing

 

[cbc86]

What some people dont seem to understand - this is not just the fight for safety during a pandemic, although that is certainly important. This is the fight to end these worthless exams forever. We take it one step at a time and dismantle this bull**** for the classes below us.

 

[Neopolymath]

oh dang, good looks didnt even know this was a thing

A couple years ago now I think.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

What some people dont seem to understand - this is not just the fight for safety during a pandemic, although that is certainly important. This is the fight to end these worthless exams forever. We take it one step at a time and dismantle this bull**** for the classes below us.

They'll just find more ways to hurt us lol. Just like when people complained about PE/CS before, and they just increase the amount of people that fails them to show that they're still relevant and not just a test 98-99% of people pass anymore.

 

[Alkaidius]

They'll just find more ways to hurt us lol. Just like when people complained about PE/CS before, and they just increase the amount of people that fails them to show that they're still relevant and not just a test 98-99% of people past anymore.

Not if we one day infiltrate! ...how would one go about doing that? Please tell me it isn’t only a True Believers club and requires an OMM residency.

Edit: Okay so Gimpel was FM. Give me, like, 5 years guys.

 

[sunshinefl]

Yeah, from what I can tell that still does nothing to help with the Match unless ERAS takes it off. If we have to take it eventually, not having taken it is still a liability to PDs if they are privy to the information.

Well, this COCA memo mandates that the residency knows you still have to take it.

New plan: Getting step 3 done. Skipping COMLEX PE, LEVEL 3 etc. And i can finally throw away the Saverese OMT book to trash where it belongs.

Life's good again.

I know! I don’t want to think about OMT again. And also that’s the part I’m most concerned about with passing PE. The further removed I get from OMT classes, the less I know. (Which is good, but not for PE). I was scheduled for PE in April.

Unfortunately, they're states where a lot of DO programs are and a lot of us will end up in. Think MI and PA are two of em

Florida is one of them. It’s where I go to school, want to match, and want to practice. So I definitely can’t avoid COMLEX series.

 

[Mass Effect]

Gotta have level3/step three by end of intern year, otherwise no PGY2

Depends entirely on state.

Actually, it depends on the program. Even within the same state, there are different requirements.

 

[Alkaidius]

Well, this COCA memo mandates that the residency knows you still have to take it.

Sure, but doesn’t specify when. Assuming ERAS takes it off, it would have to be after Match unless PDs flat out ask “btw have you taken your PE yet” during your interview. And I’m betting the chances of them caring enough to do that are low lol.

 

[sunshinefl]

Joint statement:

 

[Alkaidius]

Joint statement:View attachment 309052

I love the way they wrote “is an ongoing requirement for licensure in all 50 states” as if it isn’t something they are capable of changing literally by the end of the hour.

 

[Prehealth1011]

Sure, but doesn’t specify when. Assuming ERAS takes it off, it would have to be after Match unless PDs flat out ask “btw have you taken your PE yet” during your interview. And I’m betting the chances of them caring enough to do that are low lol.

I'll just take it after residency.

 

[Scrubs101]

Yeah they say that the suspension won't be a reason for delay in licensure, but I don't think they have come out and said they won't ever take CS. It's all speculation about that, mainly because the NBME probably doesn't even know what they are going to do lololol

I thought the FAQ @jkdoctor posted screenshots of listed that step 2 CS will no longer be required to take step 3, and that the FSMB would work with the handful of states that require step 2 CS (edit:CS not CK) explicitly for licensure. I can't seem to find the FAQ anymore though

 

[cbc86]

I thought the FAQ @jkdoctor posted screenshots of listed that step 2 CS will no longer be required to take step 3, and that the FSMB would work with the handful of states that require step 2 CK explicitly for licensure. I can't seem to find the FAQ anymore though

This is correct.

 

[dabo52]

Good work everyone so far! We still got work to do but we are heading in the right direction! Gimpel will eventually crumble with all the pressure he is getting. We still need this exam suspended and waived to take Comlex level 3! Keep fighting until Gimpel folds. Gimpel can’t give up his money

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Don’t know how to feel, on the one hand I’m glad they actually came to a timely decision that wasn’t *****ic, on the other it still doesn’t address the question of safety. CNN is showing rising COVID (to no ones surprise). I can still see continuous delays until we have to compete with 2022 for spots lol.

It's the very definition of a half measure lol. It doesn't really solve any of the real issues, it just makes them all pat each other on the backs thinking they did something and solved a problem.

 

[cbc86]

The statement is laughable imo. The PE is required to take COMLEX level 3. The CS is now not required to take USMLE Step 3. So the PE is not required for licensure in all 50 states. It is only required for DOs using the COMLEX series for licensure. A bunch of DOs will surely now use the USMLE series for licensure.

I need more information on how to make this possible.

 

[Prehealth1011]

I need more information on how to make this possible.

Honestly i doubt they'll come out and say this directly. They need to keep us in limbo so some of us are unaware about this route and actually end up paying for LEVEL 3. From my point of view, unless those 43 states decide to have a meeting and all vote against it, it seems legit.

 

[cookiegrub]

The statement is laughable imo. The PE is required to take COMLEX level 3. The CS is now not required to take USMLE Step 3. So the PE is not required for licensure in all 50 states. It is only required for DOs using the COMLEX series for licensure. A bunch of DOs will surely now use the USMLE series for licensure.

This is really interesting, someone inquire about this from the allopathic side. For our year alone if the clinical skills portion is waived, how does one take Step 3 to gain dual degree cause now if a DO has taken step 1 and 2, they can essentially do this? lol, I'm kind of serious on this one...

 

[TXKnight]

It's the very definition of a half measure lol. It doesn't really solve any of the real issues, it just makes them all pat each other on the backs thinking they did something and solved a problem.

THIS. It's the classic "kicking the can down the road" kinda thing...
BLIND PE from ERAS! suspend PE 12 to 18 months to be on par with our fellow MD students!!

 

[Alkaidius]

The statement is laughable imo. The PE is required to take COMLEX level 3. The CS is now not required to take USMLE Step 3. So the PE is not required for licensure in all 50 states. It is only required for DOs using the COMLEX series for licensure. A bunch of DOs will surely now use the USMLE series for licensure.

Also something funny I noticed. Correct me if I’m wrong cause I’m not very proficient at reading these things yet. But am I reading correctly that in subsection G for the state of Louisiana you could take Level 1, 2, and Step 3 to get licensed? Lol. Granted it’s probably just this one state, but man that’s wacky.

 

[TXKnight]

I personally feel the Joint Statement almost as a slap in the face, the waiving of PE for graduation was coming ANYWAY, sooner or later -they applied this same measure to c/o 2020 who didnt have as many students missing PE as we will. They basically stated something that they'd do anyway. The bottom line remains we need an Equal playing field during ERAS and Match!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I personally feel the Joint Statement almost as a slap in the face, the waiving of PE for graduation was coming ANYWAY, sooner or later -they applied this same measure to c/o 2020 who didnt have as many students missing PE as we will. They basically stated something that they'd do anyway. The bottom line remains we need an Equal playing field during ERAS and Match!

They did it in an attempt to take the heat off them. Convince everyone they are doing something without actually doing something.

 

[TXKnight]

They did it in an attempt to take the heat off them. Convince everyone they are doing something without actually doing something.

yeah. I hope this is not the end of it because it really is unfair and a disadvantage to DOs as a whole

 

[cookiegrub]

Not sure what you mean. A degree is not a license and a license is not a degree. There is NO DUAL MD/DO degree. There is no need to inquire. Just listen to the recent webcast from USMLE (start at about 5 minute mark);

USMLE Connection

The United States Medical Licensing Examination® (USMLE®) program supports medical licensing authorities in the United States through its leadership in the development, delivery, and continual improve

soundcloud.com

sure then why are 2 different exams being somewhat required out of DOs? Just so that people know I was being sarcastic with my earlier post but this year really highlights a lot of issues that have been contentious over the recent years.

 

[unknownDO]

Amidst this pandemic, civil unrest, economic recession, and -hopefully- the arrival of aliens : state licencing boards + the general public should see that medical education is in dire need of significant reform to safeguard from future interruption. The AOA and NBOME should be dissolved to create a more robust and streamlined medical education system. This should have happened last year after the merger!!!! I really hope that the NBME can just buy out the NBOME.

 

[Notquiteanxious]

Gotta have level3/step three by end of intern year, otherwise no PGY2

This depends on the program, you really only need it by end of residency when your training license expires.

 

[TwistedTea]

Amidst this pandemic, civil unrest, economic recession, and -hopefully- the arrival of aliens : state licencing boards + the general public should see that medical education is in dire need of significant reform to safeguard from future interruption. The AOA and NBOME should be dissolved to create a more robust and streamlined medical education system. This should have happened last year after the merger!!!! I really hope that the NBME can just buy out the NBOME.

For those reasons the Avengers were created

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

yeah. I hope this is not the end of it because it really is unfair and a disadvantage to DOs as a whole

It will only be the end of we stop petitioning and advocating for what we expect and what we need. Part of the problem is we don't have clear goals. I believe that we need all need a clear goal to focus on with what we expect the NBOME to do. I think what my school and the OOA have asked of the NBOME is very reasonable. Because these letters were sent to us publicly, I am going to post them (I have removed the contact information for all parties involved). I encourage all of you to read these letters, and show them to administration at your schools as something concrete that they can do to help support us, and ask them to all petition the NBOME for the same thing.