"Angry" Cow shot & killed at CA State Fair

[thearsonist]

Does not matter, high speed/low speed. Trying to hit a small moving target like legs while you are moving is incredibly diificult - well-beyond the skillset of most sometime shooters. The risk of shooting something besides what you are aiming for in this circumstance is incredibly high. The headlines easily could have been - 'cops try to shoot out legs from stampeding cow - kill child instead'.

Not trying to place higher value on human life and safety, but really, easy cow shot versus risky stunt shooting. No contest.

I understand what you are saying as far as difficulty in shot precision. I assume that this cow was not shot while a crowd of people stood right next to it.(at least I hope not) - suppose the fairgrounds were completely empty, and it was you and the cow. would you still fire at the abdomen? or would you fire at a hock? knowing whether or not you miss, nobody else would be hurt. I guess I'm not on par with the topic of animal capture, and the procedures involved.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[tkim]

I understand what you are saying as far as difficulty in shot precision. I assume that this cow was not shot while a crowd of people stood right next to it.(at least I hope not) - suppose the fairgrounds were completely empty, and it was you and the cow. would you still fire at the abdomen? or would you fire at a hock? knowing whether or not you miss, nobody else would be hurt. I guess I'm not on par with the topic of animal capture, and the procedures involved.

Neither am I. I'm a human doctor, when we dart people, it's with Haldol and benzos.

However, even with a clear shot and nothing behind it, I would still shoot at the target I have a better chance at hitting.

 

[sunshinevet]

I understand what you are saying as far as difficulty in shot precision. I assume that this cow was not shot while a crowd of people stood right next to it.(at least I hope not) - suppose the fairgrounds were completely empty, and it was you and the cow. would you still fire at the abdomen? or would you fire at a hock? knowing whether or not you miss, nobody else would be hurt. I guess I'm not on par with the topic of animal capture, and the procedures involved.

Seriously dude, let go of this idea that shooting it in the hock is going to immobilize it!!! I just got back from mustering on a station, and cows with broken legs would allow themselves to be mustered 20km to the yards with all the other cows, unless we cut them out. THEY CAN RUN ON 3 LEGS!!! And if you're going to shoot it in the hock, granted its just going to go crazy, and start charging if it hadnt already, and won't be hindered much by the hurt leg. Atleast shooting it in the abdomen causes some structural damage to the cow. Yes, its not ideal, yes, a headshot is best, but atleast with shots to the abdomen you have a chance of it being immobilized.

I guess my perspective is biased a little atm, as I just got back from a station where there were cows and bulls which you actually COULDNT herd, because they just wouldnt respond like a bovine normally does. Instead, they would make it their mission to hurt you, and they didn't p*ss around. Cows do go crazy. They can be nutjobs. Just because you havent seen any like that, doesnt make this not true.

 

[nyanko]

I don't totally agree with Nyanko that there is a North-South divide in CA politics. Outside of Orange County coastal Socal is pretty liberal.

San Diego.

 

[sumstorm]

I still must be missing the entire hour long video that showed the cow was docile the entire time; will someone post the link? I am assuming no one is basing their judgement of an hour long scenario on a ten minute clip that doesn't include the actual shot?

Also, may be things are different here, but cows with busted legs are euthanized (often by bullet) so how would a leg shot, even if it brought the animal down (which I doubt)? So the second bullet was a headshot? You'd still risk life and limb to get close enough for an appropriate euthanasia skull shot without ricochet. So the calf could be saved? No guarantees there and still have to get close enough to tranq or euthanize for the procedure.

 

[phys7]

I still must be missing the entire hour long video that showed the cow was docile the entire time; will someone post the link? I am assuming no one is basing their judgement of an hour long scenario on a ten minute clip that doesn't include the actual shot?

exactly. i'm inclined to trust the opinion of the trained veterinarians on hand throughout the whole process as opposed to the methhead carnies at the fair and their isolated and incomplete footage of the incident. yes, maybe the veterinarian's comments were flippant and inappropriate, but he's still an experienced and knowledgeable person and has been working around large animals for a loooooooong time.

 

[Nechochwen]

The choice to shoot the cow seems, from the article, to have been made once the cow had "got to a tunnel by the main gate". Not knowing the layout of the facility, it seems that the cow was near to escaping the fairgrounds. If what the fairground manager said was true, there were "thousands" of people in this area. The police and staff did not shoot the cow while it was walking around the fairgrounds, but rather when it reached the entrance and was probably the last opportunity to shoot without having the public in the backdrop.

I do not know anything about cows, but in zoos we have very practiced animal escape procedures. (I say "zoos", the zoo in my experience) We try tranquilize animals while they are on the grounds. But the moment a potentially dangerous animal begins to leave the grounds, we have to shoot to kill. I do not know how this cow was behaving, but I can understand why this decision was made.

I do not know anything about the ballistics end of this discussion, but I would not expect the vet staff to have brought a kill rifle with them. (It may not even be legal in CA) The officers were the only resource available to stop the cow.

 

[CatVet2Be]

San Diego.

Also pretty liberal. Just head into one of the beach communities.

As for shooting the cow in the leg, even if you managed to and it somehow immobilized it, then what? Now you have a giant animal with a bum leg who will likely have to be euthanized anyway because at their size they can't live with 3 legs for any extended period of time. All that would do is extend its suffering.

 

[david594]

As for shooting the cow in the leg, even if you managed to and it somehow immobilized it, then what?

Warm up the BBQ?

 

[CatVet2Be]

Warm up the BBQ?

That reminds me, ask one of our Texas girls about the "good bull, bad bull" story. It's pretty funny.

 

[HopefulAg]

Mmm, BBQ. Might have to dig out a bit of lead but hey, just extra flavoring.

 

[breenie]

BBQ jokes aside...

Can we actually consider the implications of shooting the cow in the leg? Assuming you shoot her and shatter her hock, I'd like someone to answer the following questions:

1) Who is going to care for this animal post trauma?
2) Are you going to float her? Put her in a sling? That broken leg isn't going to heal with her weight on it, and she's not going to survive being a down cow for a few weeks.
3) How're you going to pull that calf out? How far along is the calf?
4) WHAT SORT OF VETERINARIAN INSTRUCTS SOMEONE TO INJURE AN ANIMAL?

I'm sorry, but shooting an animal in the leg is a WORSE idea than shooting to kill it. You're essentially dragging out its death. Shooting it to immobilize it is a cruel and inhumane suggestion. Just blow it's brains out if that's what you think you want to do.

I don't know if this was suggested out of ignorance about how large animals function long term on 3 legs (surprise, not like cute kitties who just tripod around), or a total lack of ethics and thought for animal suffering, but either way, it's a bad idea.

 

[nyanko]

Also pretty liberal. Just head into one of the beach communities.

Here's what I was referring to.

The effect is indeed more coastal in Norcal, but Socal counties almost universally voted in a socially/fiscally conservative manner on the props if you scroll through them (the ones I was looking at primarily were prop 1A, prop 4, and prop 8). What's more is that you can see which ones went for Bush in 2004, which is also heavily slanted towards inland and south.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

.....how large animals function long term on 3 legs

They don't. Period. Too much weight/stress/inflammation leading to laminitis in the other 3 feet horses and muscle necrosis/adhesions in down cows. One in a MILLION cows or horses might be able to survive a broken leg. But that's it.

I'm totally in agreement with you, Breenie. Great post.

 

[milkmaid]

BBQ jokes aside...

Can we actually consider the implications of shooting the cow in the leg? Assuming you shoot her and shatter her hock, I'd like someone to answer the following questions:

1) Who is going to care for this animal post trauma?
2) Are you going to float her? Put her in a sling? That broken leg isn't going to heal with her weight on it, and she's not going to survive being a down cow for a few weeks.
3) How're you going to pull that calf out? How far along is the calf?
4) WHAT SORT OF VETERINARIAN INSTRUCTS SOMEONE TO INJURE AN ANIMAL?

I'm sorry, but shooting an animal in the leg is a WORSE idea than shooting to kill it. You're essentially dragging out its death. Shooting it to immobilize it is a cruel and inhumane suggestion. Just blow it's brains out if that's what you think you want to do.

I don't know if this was suggested out of ignorance about how large animals function long term on 3 legs (surprise, not like cute kitties who just tripod around), or a total lack of ethics and thought for animal suffering, but either way, it's a bad idea.

Thank you. About time someone pointed that out - I was afraid I'd have to read two pages of discussion on the difficulties of shooting a cow in the leg with not one person discussing what happens next. Deliberately shooting a cow in the leg is inhumane and absolutely unacceptable. Period.

The raw video is here: http://www.news10.net/video/default...w loose at California State Fair/275386981001

She looks a little skittish, but not a crazy animal that can't be contained with a competent person or two. Still, I suppose if you have a cow loose and a group of people that have no idea how to work cows (big difference between knowing how to work on cows and actually knowing how to work cows), and you have a huge fair and bystanders, shooting the cow is the best option.

None of the articles say where the bullets were fired - other than not being head shots - but I suspect the reason the calf died wasn't that it was hit by the bullets, it was that no one opened up the cow in time. You have 4 minutes, max, to get that calf out and even experienced ranchers who have done terminal c-sections can't get every calf out alive. The vet and officers' main concern was stopping the cow, I don't suppose they were carrying a knife on them big enough to open the cow up fast enough to save the calf - and even if they had - do you think they wanted 400lbs of guts laying on the concrete for fairgoers to see?

On the subject of bullets - a heavy rifle is preferable, but I've seen and put cows down with a .22 rifle from 6 feet away (head shot) and it works just fine. Place the bullet right and they'll drop. Haven't used a pistol but suspect the average .357 or .44 would work just fine.

I say - unfortunate incident, if you're going to have large animals at a fair you need decent facilities and some people who actually know something about working with large animals - but I can't blame them for their choice. Hopefully it's just one incident and won't happen again.

 

[loveoforganic]

Just echoing what tkim said - as a "now and then" shooter myself, I would not have near enough confidence to fire at the cow's head from any kind of distance (not even <10 ft). You're not firing down, and stray bullets are going to travel.

 

[No Imagination]

You're not firing down, and stray bullets are going to travel.

Not sure if its bovine or equine I am thinking about, but isn't there a spot on the animals head (parietal or frontal perhaps?) that's pretty thick, and bullets can easily ricochet off?

I may have been day dreaming during anatomy class and completely made that up, but I seem to recall something about that.

 

[sumstorm]

Yes, there have been ricochet bullets on skulls that have made it into legal history, so that is a risk.

While I think shooting a cow in the leg isn't viable, I did want to note there are a fair number of 3-leg oxen in India. Of course, cows have a different value there. So I wouldn't say survival isn't possible, but that it wouldn't be realistic in our culture, and it would not have solved the issue and probably would have made it worse.

 

[thearsonist]

BBQ jokes aside...

Can we actually consider the implications of shooting the cow in the leg? Assuming you shoot her and shatter her hock, I'd like someone to answer the following questions:

1) Who is going to care for this animal post trauma?
2) Are you going to float her? Put her in a sling? That broken leg isn't going to heal with her weight on it, and she's not going to survive being a down cow for a few weeks.
3) How're you going to pull that calf out? How far along is the calf?
4) WHAT SORT OF VETERINARIAN INSTRUCTS SOMEONE TO INJURE AN ANIMAL?

After thinking about the responses received based off of my initial (somewhat ignorant) view of the situation, I decided to do some thinking regarding this scenario. I will admit (after talking to a bovine specialist) that the choices made by the veterinarian were for the best, even if I saw them as otherwise.

Now might I try to entertain the idea of post trauma aftercare? Feel free to criticize, as I know all of you can.
Suppose the shot to the hock, no matter how impossible it may seem, worked. and the cow is downed and then able to be sedated(tranq'd).

1. The crew attending to the nursery, which includes Dr. Norman and various other vet students should be able to provide proper care to the downed cow.
2. in order to answer #2, we have to ask whether the cow was euthanized, or kept alive. If it were euthanized, well, then that's it. However, if it were kept alive, we could place it in a sling, and additional care would be required to try to rehabilitate the cow after healing is underway. (possibly introduce practice of hydrotheraphy? even though very unprofitable to farmer)
3. Dr. Norman is more than qualified to deliver the calf from the cow. Seeing as that is the main reason why pregnant animals are brought to the fair - for the public birth its offspring. Since this cow was brought to the fair...it had to be going in to labor very soon. The doctor and staff has all of the equipment to properly deliver, so why wouldn't they be able to do? as long as it is properly aligned in birth canal.
4. this is a question that is answerable only in proper context. No veterinarian WANTS to hurt an animal, but WOULD you injure an animal to try to save the life of the animal and the offspring? For some reason I can't get this question off of my mind. If nobody wanted to hurt this cow, then why was it shot several times by officers before finally passing? Public safety, i know. (Obviously it would take several shots for the cow to lose enough blood to where the officers and staff could intervene safely.) this seems like a slow death to me.

thoughts?

 

[loveoforganic]

I would assume it was shot several times to expedite the process... Do you think being allowed to bleed out from a single shot would have been more humane?

 

[thearsonist]

Do you think being allowed to bleed out from a single shot would have been more humane?

not at all.
(does it say whether the cow was PROPERLY euthanized after being shot?)
if it was properly euthanized after being shot, then I have very little problem with it. If not, letting it bleed out, no matter how quickly, is cruel.

 

[milkmaid]

The article lacks a lot of important information. Just because one shot to the heart will kill an animal doesn't mean everyone stops there. There's a lot of assumption by people in this thread that none of those shots were killing shots - which may or may not be true. Your guess on that is as good as mine, however - I have hunted before and I know that an animal can be "dead", ie heart and lungs completely destroyed by a bullet, and still be able to walk. They don't always drop instantly and it tends to make inexperienced hunters stressed when the animal continues to walk nonchalantly around when they're sure they shot it. If the cow didn't drop instantly then it wouldn't surprise me if the officers continued to shoot. Doesn't mean the first wasn't a killing shot.

I've got some cows to check and feed, will discuss post-trauma care later.

 

[Angelus9]

More follow-up. More INFURIATING follow-up:

This incident has resulted in money given to that non-animal helping, advocate of a petless/meatless society, HSUS! (which spent $23 MILLION just on cars in one year, according to their own tax returns).
http://http://www.humanewatch.org/http://www.humanewatch.org/

The Fair gave $1200 to the Sacramento SPCA, which actually does help animals, and the SPCA says they no longer want to be associated with the Fair, so they turned over the $1200 check to HSUS. Does that make any sense?

http://www.sacbee.com/2010/07/31/2927151/spca-protests-killing-of-pregnant.html

 

[breenie]

1. The crew attending to the nursery, which includes Dr. Norman and various other vet students should be able to provide proper care to the downed cow.

I meant more long term, but let's run with this. Yes, they were vets and vet students. Does that mean they're prepared to properly transport a bleeding, flailing, panicked wounded piece of hamburger? Sure, you tranq her. Now what. You have a lift? You all going to drag her by a leg? Don't think so. You're not going to do anything about that leg out in the fairgrounds-- get Bessie to surgery! Right. The only care they really can and SHOULD provide at this moment is a humane euthanasia.

2. in order to answer #2, we have to ask whether the cow was euthanized, or kept alive. If it were euthanized, well, then that's it. However, if it were kept alive, we could place it in a sling, and additional care would be required to try to rehabilitate the cow after healing is underway. (possibly introduce practice of hydrotheraphy? even though very unprofitable to farmer)

So now the farmer is paying? The farmer is NOT going to pay to float the cow, because it should be dead at this point. Putting it in a sling has a lot of issues of the cow being down, and you can't just throw her in the Aqua Cow forever, because even if you float her, she's probably having issues with the leg still. Like mentioned by WhtsTheFrequency and others, THIS ISN'T EVEN POSSIBLE. I have seen people try as hard as they can to save a horse with a broken leg--- they all end up suffering and being euthanized. Barbaro, anyone? This just isn't feasible.

3. Dr. Norman is more than qualified to deliver the calf from the cow. Seeing as that is the main reason why pregnant animals are brought to the fair - for the public birth its offspring. Since this cow was brought to the fair...it had to be going in to labor very soon. The doctor and staff has all of the equipment to properly deliver, so why wouldn't they be able to do? as long as it is properly aligned in birth canal.

The cow probably needs surgery. How're you going to deal with the anesthesia and the calf, and she's very difficult to transport at this point. She's actually probably still rampaging around the fairgrounds with the bullet hole in her hock because that wouldn't actually immobilize her. Sure, maybe you can get the calf out fine. Maybe.

4. this is a question that is answerable only in proper context. No veterinarian WANTS to hurt an animal, but WOULD you injure an animal to try to save the life of the animal and the offspring? For some reason I can't get this question off of my mind. If nobody wanted to hurt this cow, then why was it shot several times by officers before finally passing? Public safety, i know. (Obviously it would take several shots for the cow to lose enough blood to where the officers and staff could intervene safely.) this seems like a slow death to me.

Yeah, context is really important. In this situation, the context would make it inhumane to shoot the cow in the legs, because:
1) no one would want to pay for the aftercare
2) the aftercare would be impossible
3) the cow doesn't have a chance
It's not okay to shoot the cow in this situation, and I can't think of a situation where it's best to injure an animal for human safety. Mother Nature gave us all that psycho adrenaline rush in dangerous situations to make us run on our pinky toes if we have to. Most animals will do the same, and injury isn't the magical solution you're suggesting.

They shot the cow several times because it was running, they were nervous, they were inexperienced, and it's hard to hit a cow when it's running FOR IT'S LIFE. I'm sure everyone would have preferred a clean shot to the head, but this isn't the perfect life you've dreamed up.

And 3-legged cows are usually called hamburger.

 

[milkmaid]

Now might I try to entertain the idea of post trauma aftercare? Feel free to criticize, as I know all of you can.
Suppose the shot to the hock, no matter how impossible it may seem, worked. and the cow is downed and then able to be sedated(tranq'd).

1. The crew attending to the nursery, which includes Dr. Norman and various other vet students should be able to provide proper care to the downed cow.
2. in order to answer #2, we have to ask whether the cow was euthanized, or kept alive. If it were euthanized, well, then that's it. However, if it were kept alive, we could place it in a sling, and additional care would be required to try to rehabilitate the cow after healing is underway. (possibly introduce practice of hydrotheraphy? even though very unprofitable to farmer)
3. Dr. Norman is more than qualified to deliver the calf from the cow. Seeing as that is the main reason why pregnant animals are brought to the fair - for the public birth its offspring. Since this cow was brought to the fair...it had to be going in to labor very soon. The doctor and staff has all of the equipment to properly deliver, so why wouldn't they be able to do? as long as it is properly aligned in birth canal.
4. this is a question that is answerable only in proper context. No veterinarian WANTS to hurt an animal, but WOULD you injure an animal to try to save the life of the animal and the offspring? For some reason I can't get this question off of my mind. If nobody wanted to hurt this cow, then why was it shot several times by officers before finally passing? Public safety, i know. (Obviously it would take several shots for the cow to lose enough blood to where the officers and staff could intervene safely.) this seems like a slow death to me.

thoughts?

OK, so let's consider it. Pretend you're the vet making the decision. Let's assume the officers do manage to hit the hock. You've seen a hock joint - whatever gun those officers are carrying is a lot heavier than a .22 - so now you have a hock shattered into a million pieces and the lower leg hanging on by skin and maybe tendons. Where do you even begin to fix this??? You can't amputate it and leave her with only 3 legs - sure there are cows that get around on three legs, but they use the fourth for balance. Prosthetics have been used on cows, but she'd better have a tremendous amount of monentary or sentimental value to be worth it. If she was loaned to the fair for the week I doubt she or the calf are worth very much.

What if she doesn't drop? Just because she's on 3 legs doesn't mean she'll go down. So perhaps now you have a cow that's panting, eyes wide with pain, leaving a trail of blood and her leg flopping as she hobbles through the rest of the fairgrounds. Whatever PR mistake you make by killing her instantly is a thousand times better than letting bystanders see a cow injured like this.

Alternately, what if she does drop? now you have 1400lbs of bleeding, fighting, downer cow lying somewhere on the fairgrounds and you need to move her. Tractor and hiplifters or sling would be ideal, but having access to that is unlikely and bystanders won't like it. Come-along, trailer, and rope around her neck is going to be another PR mistake.

What happens when you get the cow contained and now you have to deal with this leg? what exactly will you do to fix it??? can you even piece this leg together so it'll fuse well enough to bear her weight? Hydrotherapy is used for downers, but this is a totally different case. Wet bandages, joint infection, etc.

The choice to euthanize an animal should be made when it is obvious it cannot live a normal, healthy life and or would be in tremendous, lengthy pain in the process of returning to a normal, healthy life. A cow with a shattered hock falls into both catagories - she will never live a normal life, she'd be in lengthy pain getting to any level of normal. Unless the calf has incredible value, keeping the cow alive after shattering her hock for any longer than it takes to make a head shot is inhumane.

I maintain it is inhumane and entirely unacceptable to ever shoot cow in the leg for any reason. Period.

 

[UFCVMhopeful]

For people who have a firearm as such an integral part of their daily job and may well depend on it to save their lives, you would be surprised at how many police officers are bad shots. Believe it or not, most of them do not shoot often. Most regular folks who practice somewhat regularly are better shots. Officers are usually only required to qualify with their pistol once a year. Honest police officers will tell you that most officers shoot like crap.

It's hard enough to shoot well normally, but when you add any sort of stress, you will shoot a lot worse than your worst day on the practice range. This is why people train for COM (center of mass), i.e. chest, shots in self defense situations (higher probability shots). The head is a low percentage shot - yes, the chances of stopping an attacker instantly are greater, but the odds of connecting are much worse. Kinda like a hock shot would be - lower probability of good hits, plus unlike a head shot, it won't necessarily put the cow down and eliminate the danger. I imagine those officers were going for chest shots when they hit the calf instead.

 

[sumstorm]

The raw video is here: http://www.news10.net/video/default...w loose at California State Fair/275386981001

This video still doesn't show the point at which they decided to destroy the animal. Folks are saying that it wasn't dangerous based on the footage, but none of the footage actually shows the point of decision.