DMU vs AZCOM Any imput?

[dirkdiggler]

hey all, I have been accepted to both, WHAT should I do, Any input? I can't choose, jhug any input from your choice?

later

dirk

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[Leotigers]

Despite being a relatively new school, I would without a doubt pick AZCOM over DMU. I've heard that they have nice facilites, good rotations, and they perform well on both the COMLEX and USMLE. Their students also did very well in both the allopathic and osteopathic match. With the school on the west coast, they attract better applicants and matriculants as well. Best of luck with your decision. Their match list can be found at:

<a href="http://www.azcomstudents.org/html/match01.htm" target="_blank">http://www.azcomstudents.org/html/match01.htm</a>

 

[wsu]

i agree with the above post. DMU doesn't even have a match list avaiable..

 

[Katie1822]

I can't speak for AZCOM, though I have never heard anything but good about it, however, I do think I should put in a plug for DMU. I'm a first year at DMU and I'm quite happy with my choice. I have no problem with the facilities. The lecture halls are equipped with modern all the confusing modern technology and have these very sweet, lumbar support chairs As for the match list, I believe something like 94% of the students got at least a region of their choice or their heart's desire but I could be wrong seeing as I'm only a first year. I do know that DMU is a bit different in the arranging of their rotations. There is a few months in the 3rd year and most of the 4th year that are for electives that each student must arrange. However, the student can pretty much choose where ever he or she want to go as long as the clinic or hospital is approved of. The only restriction I know of right now, is that they aren't allowing overseas rotatios b/c of the state of affairs the world is in. Also the COMLEX step I pass rate was about 98% last year, for a class of 190, that is still very good, in my opinion. I don't know for sure but I heard that the COMLEX step II was 100% pass rate. Both of these are the percentages for the pass rate of first tries. The school has a very strong OMM department and fellowship program. Right now, end of my first semester, I can treat/diagnose the pelvis, sacrum, hip and long ristrictors, as well as preform a number of soft tissue techniques. Next semester is entirely devoted to the vertebrae, which my friends and family are eagerly awaiting. I'm very happy at DMU. There is a great rapport among our class, even though their are 206 of us. In the end, when deciding what school you want to go to is not a matter of what everyone else thinks but rather what makes you most comfortable, where you will be the happiest. Good luck!

 

[wsu]

Katie,

Very well put about des moines. i hope that you don't think i was bashing the school. i have an interview on 1/10 in fact.

 

[jhug]

Dirk, what did you feel at each individual school? I know it sounds cliche-ish but go with your gut feeling. Can you ask- do i see myself getting my med school education here? will i be happy here? will this place put me where i want to go? If the answers are all yes- that is where you need to go. As for me, i felt that azcom was where i wanted to go-- this isn't to say that i didn't love DMU. They are very attentive and super nice there- and i loved iowa! but azcom just felt better. I like the smaller class size- (almost 1/2) and feel that i will get a better one-on-one education that way. AZCOM boasts the 100% board pass rates- for a few years running! DMU seemed a bit shady on the rotations- from what i gathered i had to set up some...isn't that what the tuition $ is supposed to go to? AZCOM's clinical setup really fits how i want to be taught- individually, mixed with the larger hospitals when you want...but while your trying to pass biochem/omm/systems you're not stressed about arranging/filling out clincal sites. I liked the facilities at AZCOM more as well- they seemed a bit more student-friendly. Remeber this is all 100% my opinion-- i don't want to offend anyone! Either school you are going to recieve a great education and you should feel super good you got accepted to both! I would suggest you have a little introspective time and see what the gut tells you. GOOD LUCK!! if you have any other ?'s please ask!

 

[Kent Ray]

I am a pgy1, first year IM resident at UIHC. I graduated from DMU. I don't know much about AZCOM but several of my friends went their. Both school have thrid and fourth year that are substandard. Really their is not much difference between the two school. Both schools do not provide dedicated (paid) clinical faculty. You might not think that this is a big deal but just wait. I can't say much good about either school. Sorry.

 

[dirkdiggler]

Jhug, thanks for the imput, Right now it looks like AZCOM for the same reason(s). Kent, how are you aware of AZCOM being subpar in yrs 3 and 4? Word of mouth, Stats? Thanks for your help! UIHC, U of Iowa? Great place, how was your placement from DMU?

 

[dirkdiggler]

Kent, I just wanted to clarify, your friends at UIHC went to AZCOM? Why I ask is because I really like Iowa City and that is a great hospital and only one hour from my house.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

 

[Kent Ray]

dirkdiggler,
I know about AZCOM through several of my intern buddies in Detroit. They claimed that the school basically had no plan for their third and fourth years. They had to find all of their own rotations. I am sure this is better now. AZCOM is probably better than DMU. But if you are claiming to be a medical school which both DMU and AZCOM do than you better have a plan for clinical education. Sorry but most Osteopathic schools fail in this area. I would be glad to talk to you about University of Iowa. Email me at [email protected]

 

[jhug]

Kent-- PLEASE don't take the tone of this as rude or sarcastic, i am simply curious. How long ago did these interns graduate? AZCOM is relatively new and if this was years ago that may explain-- also, if they are interning with you, couldn't you say they made it to where you are, or...i'm trying to think of the best way to ask without sounding rude-- their education served the exact same purpose as yours? The reason i ask is that i don't want to spend a lot of $ if the med school i choose can't put me where i want to go-- it looks like these interns ended up where you did so is there a huge difference in their education and yours? Again, read this as a little brother asking a bigger brother for some advice-- it is not intended to be rude or cutting!!

 

[Leotigers]

Jhug - If given the choice, I would choose AZCOM. I think I made that clear in my first post. I do want to comment on your tone since you did mention it. I've noticed on several occassions in which your posts could be taken the wrong way. Stating that you don't want to be rude doesn't mean that it doesn't come across that way. I think AZCOM is a great school and I'm proud as a DO that the school is doing well for itself. I wish the same thing for all DO schools. Unfortunately, unlike with MD schools, a bad DO school/student reflects poorly on all DOs. This sucks but in the real world it's true sometimes.

AZCOM has a lot of good things but it is NOT without its share of problems. Some of these you probably don't realize yet since you are a pre-med. There are just a few things I want to comment on. The preceptorship rotations are not without its problems. Secondly, I know of some residencies in which there are Harvard Medical School graduates working alongside with graduates from Mexico. Does this mean that there were no differences in the education? Lastly, I'm curious as to how a pre-med who has not done rotations at DMU can call them shady and go on to question the use of their tuition money.

If you've spent any time on this board, you'd know that Kent is one of the harshest critics of his own school. The point I'm making is that you take great pride in your school and this is a good thing. However, you tend to be almost condescending of other schools at times whether you realize it or not. Your questions are often just statements in disguise. Some of the things you criticize/question are things in which you wouldn't be doing once you are a MS IV or graduate of AZCOM. You'll know that I mean once you get there.

 

[jhug]

AZCOM has a lot of good things but it is NOT without its share of problems ••
Never said it didn't

I know of some residencies in which there are Harvard Medical School graduates working alongside with graduates from Mexico ••
Unless you are implying that they are there simply because they are brown- how did they end up in the same place unless they are equally qualified? Teaching styles may be different but, in my naivety, i would say both educations served their purpose.

I'm curious as to how a pre-med who has not done rotations at DMU can call them shady and go on to question the use of their tuition money. ••
Ask an opinion and you'll get one- DMU could never give me straight answers to my questions regarding their rotations and then said i am responsible for finding and securing the sites as well as filling out the paper work-- in my inexperienced little mind that seems a bit shady--i would hope that my tuition money would go toward funding someone to help in such a time consuming process.

Unfortunately, unlike with MD schools, a bad DO school/student reflects poorly on all DOs. This sucks but in the real world it's true sometimes. ••
I Couldn't agree with you more!

. Some of the things you criticize/question are things in which you wouldn't be doing once you are a MS IV or graduate of AZCOM. You'll know that I mean once you get there. ••
There is real truth to this! I go in dreaming and will come out realizing much more than i ever imagined.
I appreciate your comments and they are taken to heart. One of the powers in a network such as this is that people with experience, such as yourself, can help those with little/no experience, such as myself. And i am sure in 4 years i'll be telling some other overly-excited pre-med student that all is not like you dream.

 

[Leotigers]

Originally posted by jhug:
•
also, if they are interning with you, couldn't you say they made it to where you are, or...i'm trying to think of the best way to ask without sounding rude-- their education served the exact same purpose as yours? •••

Originally posted by jhug:
•
Unless you are implying that they are there simply because they are brown- how did they end up in the same place unless they are equally qualified? Teaching styles may be different but, in my naivety, i would say both educations served their purpose.•••

Brown?! Two interns could be at the same place but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are of equal quality. The Harvard grad could have simply decided he wanted to be close to his hometown in Booneyville and do FP even though he could've gone to a top FP program. The grad from Mexico could've failed to match into FP for the second year in a row and scrambled into a spot in the same program. Other possibilities would include a Harvard Grad trying to match into Dermatology, failing to match, and then scrambling into an open, unfilled Internal Medicine residency. The grad from Mexico could've had connections into a program or could've scored a 245 on the USMLE. FMGs often take 1-2 years off to study for the USMLEs and do not take them during the end of the second year like AMGs do. These are just a couple of examples/reasons but there are more.

Anyway, I'm not sure why you were so defensive and why you brought that point up in the first place. Kent never did say there was a huge difference between him and a AZCOM grad. He actually did say that AZCOM is probably a better school. My point is that two residents in the same training program does not necessarily mean that they will be of equal caliber nor does it mean that both of their medical educations served an equal purpose. One might have had to bust his balls and do a ton of his own studying, while the other just cruised by attending lectures. I will say that at top-notch insitutions and in competitive specialties, you will find more consistency in quality. At many of the rest, however, there can be a wide range of variability between residents.

Again, you are probably right and much of this is probably due to the excitement of starting medical school. I just wanted to let you know that some of the things that you've criticized about one school over another (not just on this thread) aren't necesarily important in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Kent Ray]

Jhug,
I don't think you are being rud. You are about to borrow around $160,000 for an education. You need to make sure that you are not throwing your money away. You will get to the same place that every other graduate of an Osteopathic or allopathic school does but you will have a huge disadvantage in your third and fourth years at DMU or AZCOM. Let me give you an example. I will compare a typical internal medicine rotation in Des Moines or Michigan to one at the University of Iowa. Typical day at Des Moines or Michigan would be to go to morning report (only in michigan, des moines has no organized medical education program) Then see your patients, may or may not have a resident. Then you would go to the library and read until your attending gets out of their clinic, usually around 4 or 5pm. ( you could have a noon lecture depending on where you are) Then you could round for 1hr. The attending is tired and will not take time to teach. Could you blame them, they are not getting paid!
Ok, now University of Iowa. The teams consist of one attending, one senior resident, one intern, two students, and one sub intern (we did not even have a sub internship at DMU). Again their are morning and noon lectures, different ones for students and residents. You usually round about 9am with the team on about 15 patients. This will last about 1-2 hours (lots of teaching). After noon lecture the attending will usually (at least 3-4 days per week) talk about something for an hour or more. The students have three separate lectures a week over internal med stuff. At the end of their six weeks of inpatient medicine they take a rather difficult test (Never took one test after my second year at DMU).
What I am saying here is that the Osteopathic schools(most of them) cannot compete with most allopathic schools in the third and fourth years. Because they don't have clincal faculty, they cannot offer you a clinical education.
End the end you will be in the same place but if you have an open mind and have experienced both allopathic and osteopathic education you will agree with me.
By the way UofI charges $10,000 for tuition while DMU charges &gt;$24,000.
I can give you tips on getting more education for you money. Please email me at [email protected]

 

[Leotigers]

I would agree with Kent in this regard. The positives that I've experienced with preceptorships are that you get to do a lot in the OR (often I was the first assistant since there were no residents and interns) and in clinic/wards. I could suture, assist, write orders, dictate, deliver babies (many MS IVs at UC Davis didn't get to do deliveries during medical school), and so forth better than many of my allopathic counterparts. However, any school that has all of their third and fourth year rotations set up this way is making a mistake. If things are setup this way, they should allow the students plenty of electives. The fact that AZCOM only allows one each year is not a good thing and something you should try and change. Believe it or not, attendings are NOT the best people to learn from all the time. Senior residents in a program are often the best teachers and have the most time to teach you. You learn a lot from being on a team and doing acting internships. I'd say that the knowledge you miss the most is daily management issues (which you can learn on your own by reading, but you won't always know what's important to focus on). Unless a DO school has a ton of their own residency programs like MSUCOM & PCOM does, I think it would be a wise thing to allow students to do a good number of electives. Many schools such as PCOM, TUCOM, NYCOM, CCOM, NOVA and TCOM have signed agreements or have a history of their students rotating at a local allopathic medical school residency program. This obviously facilitates setting up a rotation because little has to be done on the part of the student.

 

[jhug]

Ken- i don't want to sound too cheezy but you are the kind of doc i hope to work on a case with someday! This may be a question you can't answer-- is there a solution to the whole clinical experience thing? Do you have any suggestions on improving what i can of the rotations options i will be given? (other than a possibly better md program) All and any direction will be greatly appreciated!!

 

[tedsadoc2002]

Hi,

I am not sure why you are under the impression that AZCOM only has one elective in the fourth year but I can assure you that this is certainly not the case. Please check my post under "AZCOM clinicals" for the real story on rotations. In your fourth year you can set up all inpatient rotation if you want to. The school has changed tremendously since the first class graduated.

 

[Leotigers]

Hey Ted,

I stand corrected. I was told this by an early graduate whom I haven't seen in years. I also read this on one of the AZCOM threads but he/she may have been misinformed as well. Best of luck in the match this year.

Jhug,

I think DOs can do very well in allopathic rotations and residencies. If I didn't think that then I wouldn't suggest it. My preceptorships acutally helped me to shine on my allopathic rotations. Here's a few suggestions that might be useful on how to obtain a competitive residency:

<a href="http://www.studentdoctor.net/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=11&t=000380" target="_blank">http://www.studentdoctor.net/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=11&t=000380</a>

 

[jhug]

Ted & ER-- THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!! you have been a wealth of information! Ted, you always seem to pull through for me when i have a question-- even when i have read the answer from you before!! It is exciting to read of DO's who have "done it" or who have made/are making it through the ropes! I wish you all the best- from what i read you deserve it!