Does Loma Linda look at Muslims unfavorably?

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I know what you mean, but I'm also all of those things and still wouldn't want to go somewhere that had such strict rules just because I think it creates a climate that isn't conducive to personal freedom.

And I totally respect that.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Dr. Stalker]

I just looked up their student policies and holy crap... straight from their student handbook
"
We believe that God’s ideal for sexuality is achieved when sexual
expression is limited to a man and a woman, who are husband and wife, committed in lifelong
marriage. Premarital and extramarital sexual expression and conduct are to be chaste, and
behaviors that suggest otherwise are to be avoided. Unchaste conduct is contrary to the ideals of
the University and will result in disciplinary action."

http://home.llu.edu/sites/home.llu.edu/files/docs/student-handbook.pdf

So no premarital sex, or gay sex, or else you get disciplined. Also, no alcohol,smoking, or ponography, and weekly chapel meetings. I don't think you'd really want to fake it for 4 years if you don't fit in.

How do they know if students who are unmarried are having relations with one another...? Do they have cameras in the bedrooms/dormitories? I'm actually being serious.

 

[P0ke]

How do they know if students who are unmarried are having relations with one another...? Do they have cameras in the bedrooms/dormitories? I'm actually being serious.

They probably can't unless you admit to it, or you get turned in by somebody else. Or if you live on-campus and are being really loud. It's probably more of the looming thought that you're breaking the rules that's the worst, moreso than the possibility of actually being caught.

Who knows? They could set up stings using hot chicks if they wanted.

 

[Astra]

You're the person who made that old thread about being arrested for sneaking into a music festival.

Masterful trolling OP

 

[ICUBlue]

Just to be super clear... is it no drinking. Or no drinking on campus?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[cactusman]

Just to be super clear... is it no drinking. Or no drinking on campus?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

No drinking anywhere that you might get caught.

 

[ICUBlue]

No drinking anywhere that you might get caught.

Dang.

Legalism to the max, yo


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Personally, I feel like if the idea of not drinking for a bit is problematic to you, then you might need to think about cutting back. That's just me though. That's not directed at anyone in particular.

 

[sullen-burger]

As a related side note, everyone should consider the effect of implicit (unconscious) bias when they hear conscious claims that everyone will receive equal treatment regardless of perceived differences among racial, gender, transgender, sexual, and other minorities (ncbi).

 

[blackroses]

In what respect? You are not being forced to attend or even apply to the school. Indeed, they are saying, if you make the free and open choice to join us, we have a code that you must agree to follow. However, it is our code and not one that we enforce or insist for others, such as patients. What is the point of religious freedom if you are forced to practice or adhere solely to current cultural or societal standards only? The balance between religious freedom and societal good is a constant battle. In this particular case it is clear cut. You are free to join or not join this institution. And what you practice personally, as all physicians and other providers of any service, should not be inflicted upon your patients in anyway, shape, or form.

To paraphrase Evelyn Beatrice Hall, I may disapprove of what you practice , but I will defend to the death your right to practice it

I didn't say it shouldn't be allowed, or that it somehow violates someone's rights. I just pointed out that I think it's a little hypocritical for the students of Loma Linda to support an institution that discriminates against people it admits based on factors it demands its students don't discriminate on. A somewhat analogous situation, in my mind, would be an organization refusing to hire anyone who has not achieved a high school diploma, while simultaneously demanding that their employees hire contractors who do not have a high school diploma. Not something that's illegal, not something that should be illegal, not violating anyone's rights, just weird and somewhat hypocritical.

 

[LutGholein]

I know that Loma Linda is a Christian private school and I have heard on here from several threads that they are pretty focused on christian applicants. Is it worth my time to apply there as a muslim when I have no experience or affiliation with other religious organizations/ECs?

I'd worry more about your music festival arrest and the details surrounding that as opposed to this-- and for the record the school has interviewees of other faiths aside from SDA(n=1 my experience attending the interview with applicants of other faiths) but there is a strong general christian environment that many applicants specifically seek and reciprocally the school wants people who can fulfill their school mission.

To the people who question this as unfair to applicants--you have the option to not apply here and secondly you are not the focus in the admissions game-- the medical school/patient demographics/misc. have higher priority to whether medical school admissions is "fair" in the perception of applicants.

 

[bananafish94]

As long as they don't consider caffeine a "recreational drug," I think I could tough this place out for four years. But if they took away the coffee we would have a big problem.

 

[LutGholein]

As long as they don't consider caffeine a "recreational drug," I think I could tough this place out for four years. But if they took away the coffee we would have a big problem.

Yeah coffee is okay or caffeinated beverages in general-- I think everyone needs that haha. There's actually a professor out there who lectures all the time next with his Dr.Pepper from what a med student friend tells out there!

 

[frosted2]

You're assuming wrong, from what I can find online.

YIKES. As if med students aren't busy enough

 

[cactusman]

As long as they don't consider caffeine a "recreational drug," I think I could tough this place out for four years. But if they took away the coffee we would have a big problem.

Yeah coffee is okay or caffeinated beverages in general-- I think everyone needs that haha. There's actually a professor out there who lectures all the time next with his Dr.Pepper from what a med student friend tells out there!

The administration doesn't have an issue with caffeine. However, it's worth noting for the sake of trivia that many SDAs still avoid caffeine. The church's dietary restrictions and recommendations have generally become less strict over the years. Kellogg was a relatively early and influential member of the Church and saw caffeine as a poison.

 

[bananafish94]

The administration doesn't have an issue with caffeine. However, it's worth noting for the sake of trivia that many SDAs still avoid caffeine. The church's dietary restrictions and recommendations have generally become less strict over the years. Kellogg was a relatively early and influential member of the Church and saw caffeine as a poison.

That's interesting. I'm basically agnostic but I've always enjoyed learning about different religions. I wonder if they discourage working on Sundays--that would also be a problem for me.

 

[LutGholein]

The administration doesn't have an issue with caffeine. However, it's worth noting for the sake of trivia that many SDAs still avoid caffeine. The church's dietary restrictions and recommendations have generally become less strict over the years. Kellogg was a relatively early and influential member of the Church and saw caffeine as a poison.

I'll give you that--- and to be honest I have no idea how those who advocate to shy away from coffee are able to go about through the long days. A few friends of mine from UoUSOM and LLUSM are Mormons and they tell me that some Latter Day Saints folks avoid coffee(most of the med students don't)-- again I have no idea how but more power to them-- I need my coffee.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That's interesting. I'm basically agnostic but I've always enjoyed learning about different religions. I wonder if they discourage working on Sundays--that would also be a problem for me.

Seventh Day Adventists observe the Sabbath on Saturdays in line with the Hebrew calendar and the fourth Commandment to observe the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week.

 

[jcorpsmanMD]

I guess. I mean if the only school I got into was one of those schools, I'd have absolutely no problem sucking it up for 4 years. I'm Christian, straight, married, sober, and I don't watch porn, so it really wouldn't bother me.

A Sailor that's sober? Blasphemy

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

A Sailor that's sober? Blasphemy

I'm trying to change our image. Plus, I got all my drinking out of the way when I was an irresponsible musician.

 

[frosted2]

A Sailor that's sober? Blasphemy

It has been a long nite y'all ahahhahahahahhaha

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It has been a long nite y'all ahahhahahahahhaha

 

[JJRousseau]

I didn't say it shouldn't be allowed, or that it somehow violates someone's rights. I just pointed out that I think it's a little hypocritical for the students of Loma Linda to support an institution that discriminates against people it admits based on factors it demands its students don't discriminate on. A somewhat analogous situation, in my mind, would be an organization refusing to hire anyone who has not achieved a high school diploma, while simultaneously demanding that their employees hire contractors who do not have a high school diploma. Not something that's illegal, not something that should be illegal, not violating anyone's rights, just weird and somewhat hypocritical.

To me the problem is not hypocrisy with admissions. I just don't understand how you can truly serve patients corporeal health responsibly with a deep and profound conviction that their souls are all damned to hell for eternity. The only way I ever see this reconciled is a holier-than-thou "love" to save their soul attitude that is almost as infuriating to me as mangos in the Oval Office. But that's just my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[blackroses]

by that argument if Loma Linda wouldnt be hypocritical if only treated patients that followed SDA doctrine. Or for that matter any school with any sort of religious or behavior code that also taught its pupils to treat all equally is hypocritical, yet some of the most stringent "moral" teachings come from such institution. So your position is in this logical is that any school with any standard of behavior, which is every school if you were to read any medical school student handbook, is being hypocritical in teaching that they should treat all people equally, whether the most upstanding citizen or the lowest drug addict, prostitute or murderer.

I agree, it would certainly be more logical for them to allow their students to deny treatment to patients for the same reasons that they deny potential students for admission. Again, you seem to think I'm trying to argue right or wrong - I'm not.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

To me the problem is not hypocrisy with admissions. I just don't understand how you can truly serve patients corporeal health responsibly with a deep and profound conviction that their souls are all damned to hell for eternity. The only way I ever see this reconciled is a holier-than-thou "love" to save their soul attitude that is almost as infuriating to me as mangos in the Oval Office. But that's just my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I'm very much a Christian who believes that Jesus is Way, the Truth, the Life, and that no one comes to the Father except though Jesus. I have taken care of athests, Muslims, etc. with no issue. What I think of their religion is irrelevant to my duty to provide the best care possible. I imagine most Christian doctors can separate it.

 

[blackroses]

neither am I. I am arguing this behavior of Loma Linda is neither hypocritical nor discriminatory.

They most certainly exhibit discrimination - that can't really be argued in a reasonable manner. They actively demonstrate a (negative) bias against certain people based solely on their religion, sexual orientation, or other factors. It is not an illegal form of discrimination in this case, but it is undeniably discrimination. In my opinion, their policies certainly do fall under the definition of hypocrisy because they are acting in a contradictory manner - exhibiting discrimination against certain groups while demanding that their students do not discriminate against those same groups.

They are not doing it in an illegal manner. I won't even argue about whether what they're doing is right or wrong. But it certainly is discriminatory and hypocritical.

 

[LutGholein]

the definition of hypocrisy because they are acting in a contradictory manner - exhibiting discrimination against certain groups while demanding that their students do not discriminate against those same groups.

So you're saying it's hypocritical for a school to want to select students that fulfill its mission?

The way state-sponsored medical schools seek to fill their school with competent residents of their own state versus XYZ state? For that matter other mission-based schools that seek a specific demographic applicant pool to fulfill their mission? All forms of discrimination from a very clinical point of view without the negative connotation.

To make the connection that their student cohort would somehow be unable to treat patients of different faiths, orientations, etc. because of their parent institution's theological stance is insulting. Being a Christian and a physician is somehow incompatible? This is certainly news to me.

 

[blackroses]

So you're saying it's hypocritical for a school to want to select students that fulfill its mission?

The way state-sponsored medical schools seek to fill their school with competent residents of their own state versus XYZ state? For that matter other mission-based schools that seek a specific demographic applicant pool to fulfill their mission? All forms of discrimination from a very clinical point of view without the negative connotation.

To make the connection that their student cohort would somehow be unable to treat patients of different faiths, orientations, etc. because of their parent institution's theological stance is insulting. Being a Christian and a physician is somehow incompatible? This is certainly news to me.

Once again, I never claimed that being christian and being a physician are incompatible - quite obviously, they are not. Nor did I say that their student cohort would be unable to treat patients of any kind (in fact, I said quite the opposite, and pointed out that Loma Linda demands their students do treat all patients with equal care and attention). I also never said other schools don't participate in forms of discrimination (again, it is quite obvious that they do). I also did not say that it's hypocritical for a school to select students that fulfill their mission - there's nothing hypocritical about that part at all. I'm not sure where you're seeing that I've said any of these things that you claim I've said.

Once again, I stated that it seems hypocritical to simultaneously discriminate against certain groups while demanding that your students not discriminate against those same groups. A good basic "litmus test" for hypocrisy is "do as I say, not as I do", which in this case, fits perfectly: the school demands students not discriminate against their patients based on certain factors like religion and sexual orientation ("do as I say") while they simultaneously discriminate based on those very same things ("not as I do").

 

[miniman]

Once again, I never claimed that being christian and being a physician are incompatible - quite obviously, they are not. Nor did I say that their student cohort would be unable to treat patients of any kind (in fact, I said quite the opposite, and pointed out that Loma Linda demands their students do treat all patients with equal care and attention). I also never said other schools don't participate in forms of discrimination (again, it is quite obvious that they do). I also did not say that it's hypocritical for a school to select students that fulfill their mission - there's nothing hypocritical about that part at all. I'm not sure where you're seeing that I've said any of these things that you claim I've said.

Once again, I stated that it seems hypocritical to simultaneously discriminate against certain groups while demanding that your students not discriminate against those same groups. A good basic "litmus test" for hypocrisy is "do as I say, not as I do", which in this case, fits perfectly: the school demands students not discriminate against their patients based on certain factors like religion and sexual orientation ("do as I say") while they simultaneously discriminate based on those very same things ("not as I do").

You are forgetting the difference between student and patient.

 

[libertyyne]

I agree, it would certainly be more logical for them to allow their students to deny treatment to patients for the same reasons that they deny potential students for admission. Again, you seem to think I'm trying to argue right or wrong - I'm not.

Catholic hospitals don't perform abortions and I am sure there are no gender reassignment surgeries occuring at these sda hospitals. They have to treat any patient that shows up, since they would loose Medicare or Medicaid funding. Doesn't mean they won't judge you.

 

[hellobigcat]

There are plenty of schools out there that don't impose strict religious doctrine, so it is not like you're forced to choose LL. I'm not Muslim, but my family has had a pretty bad history with bible-thumping religious types down south in Georgia/Alabama when I was younger. Therefore, personally, I wouldn't ever consider Liberty or Loma Linda purely because I feel like I would be constantly uncomfortable lol.

However, their admissions team probably know how to separate the casual applicants from the really devout/spiritual applicants, so if you are not entirely enthusiastic about their mission, they will be able to detect it.

 

[mwsapphire]

I'm very much a Christian who believes that Jesus is Way, the Truth, the Life, and that no one comes to the Father except though Jesus. I have taken care of athests, Muslims, etc. with no issue. What I think of their religion is irrelevant to my duty to provide the best care possible. I imagine most Christian doctors can separate it.

Wait, I'm not offended at all, I'm just curious, why would taking care of a Muslim or Jew even remotely be an issue? ( Your post implies that Atheist and Muslims are both eqaully different from Christians) They still worship God, just in a slightly different way. I, for one, feel like everyone who worships God should feel connected to anybody else who worships God, regardless of Jewish, Christian, Muslim. I feel like we're close enough, you know? If i treated a devout Christian I would feel some connection to their beliefs, b/c we both believe in God.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Wait, I'm not offended at all, I'm just curious, why would taking care of a Muslim or Jew even remotely be an issue? ( Your post implies that Atheist and Muslims are both eqaully different from Christians) They still worship God, just in a slightly different way. I, for one, feel like everyone who worships God should feel connected to anybody else who worships God, regardless of Jewish, Christian, Muslim. I feel like we're close enough, you know? If i treated a devout Christian I would feel some connection to their beliefs, b/c we both believe in God.

The poster I quoted implied that Christians would have a hard time treating patients of other faiths equally. My point is that if you are treating people differently, that is because you have a problem, not because of your faith.

I don't want to derail too much, but Christians do not believe in the prophet Muhammad and that those who do not place their faith in Jesus will not go to the Father. So yeah, I can see why someone might think we would treat Muslims or atheists differently, but that's just its own prejudice. We may not agree with their religion, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't treat them the same.

 

[JJRousseau]

The poster I quoted implied that Christians would have a hard time treating patients of other faiths equally. My point is that if you are treating people differently, that is because you have a problem, not because of your faith.

I don't want to derail too much, but Christians do not believe in the prophet Muhammad and that those who do not place their faith in Jesus will not go to the Father. So yeah, I can see why someone might think we would treat Muslims or atheists differently, but that's just its own prejudice. We may not agree with their religion, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't treat them the same.

For the record, I wasn't speaking about Christians in general, but those individuals with a particular intensity and form of conviction for their religion (which Loma Linda, well within their rights, selectively aims to recruit to become doctors). Perhaps my language was too strong. Naturally a competent individual with solid training in medicine can practice effectively regardless of their belief system, but I have found in my experience that the Heaven/Hell conviction in that form and intensity inevitably distorts the empathy and human connection with some degree (sometimes a profound degree) of holier-than-thou condescension. As a patient, I want to be healed, not "saved" in any Christian theological sense.

EDIT: So long as that belief system allows for respect for and implementation of evidence-based scientific medicine.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

For the record, I wasn't speaking about Christians in general, but those individuals with a particular intensity and form of conviction for their religion (which Loma Linda, well within their rights, selectively aims to recruit to become doctors). Perhaps my language was too strong. Naturally a competent individual with solid training in medicine can practice effectively regardless of their belief system, but I have found in my experience that the Heaven/Hell conviction in that form and intensity inevitably distorts the empathy and human connection with some degree (sometimes a profound degree) of holier-than-thou condescension. As a patient, I want to be healed, not "saved" in any Christian theological sense.

EDIT: So long as that belief system allows for respect for and implementation of evidence-based scientific medicine.

I get you. I am extremely devout in my faith. I have no issue with evidence based anything, and I see no issue with accepting evolution, inflation, multiverse theory, etc. Science and faith are opposite sides of the same coin. Unfortunately, some people on both sides have a hard time seeing that, but I know many Christians, Jews, and Muslims who feel as I do. Some of the best surgeons I have ever worked with were very religious.

 

[miniman]

Just to add as @Matthew9Thirtyfive is former Navy, if he were to choose a military medical career, may have to care for wounded enemy combatants who might have just left 5 KIA Marines on the battlefield. One of the founders of SDN is full-time military now, leaving private practice to join after 9/11 , and has done 4 combat tours of duty. I am sure he been in a situation similar

In short, as a physician, or any other medical provider, or any person for that matter, your goal should be to use your training and the values , moral, ethics and standards of your belief system, whatever it may be, to do the best job for whatever person may be in need of your service. Your job is not to somehow instill your beliefs upon them or judge them for what they believe or who they are. It is your belief and the only one you should judge is yourself on your standards for doing your best

How many times can I like it? Enough to put your last idea as my signature...

 

[miniman]

I am truly touch as it is my strong belief that everyone deserves to be treated like a human.

It's surprising that as humans we can't just simply treat each other like we are, we have to hurt others, or elevate some to make ourselves feel good.... honestly, being a human shouldn't be that hard, but apparently it is.

 

[deleted480308]

How is this even legal?

I don't understand the US sometimes....no offense

Freedom of association should be legal, particularly if we ended govt enforced licensing but that's for another thread

CUSOM-- Christian-- I know they have dress codes. Don't know what else (no hand holding/ sex)

dry campus but other than that just be a professional adult and don't end up in jail or the newspaper for something stupid

 

[miniman]

Freedom of association should be legal, particularly if we ended govt enforced licensing but that's for another thread
dry campus but other than that just be a professional adult and don't end up in jail or the newspaper for something stupid

What you mean I have to be an adult! That's against all of my morals.

They should be banned for telling their student to be like that!