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kelaskov

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I'm interested in comments from those receiving or planning on pursuing abortion training. What inspires you to seek training and will your residency choice depend on elective abortion training provided by the residency? If your residency hasn't provided formal training, what are you doing to get trained? Any comments/feedback from students who have done MSFC internships or 4th year abortion/family planning electives appreciated. Thanks!!
 

nibrocli

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I'm also very interested in this topic. I'd like to know more about being trained while doing a residency that is NOT is family medicine or ob/gyn (I know these are the two standard routes).

A thread I started in the pediatrics forum was closed due to some nasty attacks. This thread is not meant to start an abortion debate.

Please stay on-topic.
Thanks.
 
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mules05

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I'm also very interested in this topic. I'd like to know more about being trained while doing a residency that is NOT is family medicine or ob/gyn (I know these are the two standard routes).

A thread I started in the pediatrics forum was closed due to some nasty attacks. This thread is not meant to start an abortion debate.

Please stay on-topic.
Thanks.

I would imagine that residency programs that don't focus on reproductive health and gyn surgery wouldn't offer training in performing abortions. I'd actually venture that perhaps doctors that aren't trained and board-certified in gyn surgery shouldn't be performing these potentially dangerous procedures at all. I don't let my cardiologist check for skin cancer or my dermatologist interpret an echo, so why would I trust any other specialist to perform procedures outside the scope of his or her training?
 

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I've done the Reproductive Health Externship through MSFC, and it was a very rewarding experience. Feel free to PM me with any questions; I expect this thread to sink under the weight of trolls (or debate, which isn't the point) pretty quickly.
 

nibrocli

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This is simply untrue. Abortion is relevant to several specialties besides gyn & FP. Other specialties can and do incorporate training into their residency programs. Many of us want more info on this, that's all. Also, it is hardly a dangerous procedure.

Again, please keep this thread on-topic. If you have relevant info, we'd like to hear it. We're not too interested in what you'd imagine or venture that perhaps is true. I'm not trying to be harsh, but it has become frustrating that we cannot get info from people who are actually knowledgable on this public forum.
Thanks.


I would imagine that residency programs that don't focus on reproductive health and gyn surgery wouldn't offer training in performing abortions. I'd actually venture that perhaps doctors that aren't trained and board-certified in gyn surgery shouldn't be performing these potentially dangerous procedures at all.
 

kelaskov

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Lose the smiley, troll.

Hi there Premed student. As a sophmore in college, I doubt you have much to add to this forum. Please come back-if you're ever accepted to medical school and would like more information on becoming an abortion provider.
:)
 

mules05

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This is simply untrue. Abortion is relevant to several specialties besides gyn & FP. Other specialties can and do incorporate training into their residency programs. Many of us want more info on this, that's all. Also, it is hardly a dangerous procedure.

How, exactly, is it relevant to specialties not dealing with reproductive health? Perhaps I'm just not as bright as you, but when I see baby, I think OB. Perhaps peds, but since said baby is no more at the end of it, you'd have a hard time convincing me that a pediatrics should have anything to do with a surgical procedure. Also, I said POTENTIALLY dangerous, which is indeed the case for any surgical procedure, no matter how minor, which is why we have surgical residencies to train physicians to perform them.

You can ask for a thread to be kept on topic, but you were the one who brought up the idea of physicians in random specialties performing abortions, not me.
 

kelaskov

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I would imagine that residency programs that don't focus on reproductive health and gyn surgery wouldn't offer training in performing abortions. I'd actually venture that perhaps doctors that aren't trained and board-certified in gyn surgery shouldn't be performing these potentially dangerous procedures at all. I don't let my cardiologist check for skin cancer or my dermatologist interpret an echo, so why would I trust any other specialist to perform procedures outside the scope of his or her training?

Actually, some pediatricians who focus on adolecent medicine provide abortion services, IUD placement and other gyn procedures. Teens constitute a large percentage of the unintended pregnancies and many have elective abortions. I also met a general surgery resident who was pursuing elective abortion training. The data is clear that both surgical and medical abortion procedures are safe and easy to learn.

If you provide abortion procedures, and are are in peds/IM/Gen Surg., or another area that does not generally provide elective abortion care, please describe how (and why) you got your training. Many thanks!
 

nibrocli

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Perhaps I'm just not as bright as you...
please, let's not start things like this.

you'd have a hard time convincing me that a pediatrics should have anything to do with a surgical procedure.
i'd rather not try to convince you, but if you are really interested in relevance, you can check out MSFC or NAF.

Also, I said POTENTIALLY dangerous, which is indeed the case for any surgical procedure, no matter how minor, which is why we have surgical residencies to train physicians to perform them.
routine surgical abortion is not really surgery. there's no incision or general anesthesia. it's dilation and evacuation, which is not beyond the scope of pediatricians, emergency medicine physicians, IM, etc. family medicine typically trains in the procedure, and this specialty is very much like peds in that it's a medical specialty, rather than a surgical one.

as kelaskov said, feel free to input if you have experience or knowledge in abortion training!
cheers.
 

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Actually, some pediatricians who focus on adolecent medicine provide abortion services, IUD placement and other gyn procedures. Teens constitute a large percentage of the unintended pregnancies and many have elective abortions. I also met a general surgery resident who was pursuing elective abortion training. The data is clear that both surgical and medical abortion procedures are safe and easy to learn.

If you provide abortion procedures, and are are in peds/IM/Gen Surg., or another area that does not generally provide elective abortion care, please describe how (and why) you got your training. Many thanks!
Let me guess.....you'd also like the address, phone number, and details on the security measures of the locations that providing too right? :rolleyes:
 

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emergency medicine physicians

I don't think you will find any EP who does abortions in the ED...... :rolleyes: You're making a mountain out of an anthill (it isn't even a molehill). I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess that you disagree with abortion?
 
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Does no one else find it disturbing that there is a smiley face in this thread? Even if you do support abortion, I would think you would at least agree that it is not a happy topic.

I do have a question, however. Do we have to get training in how to do an abortion? I do not plan to ever do the procedure, and have a moral objection to it. Is it required that a doctor (who is not an OB) has knowledge and training in this area in order to obtain a medical license? I hope not.

I also hope I don't get flamed, though I don't really care.
 

nibrocli

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Does no one else find it disturbing that there is a smiley face in this thread?
many of us are very passionate about all aspects of women's healthcare, and we are enthusiastic to learn more about it and talk to others who share our views.
Do we have to get training in how to do an abortion?
no worries, if you don't care to learn the procedure, you'll never have to.
 

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Does no one else find it disturbing that there is a smiley face in this thread? Even if you do support abortion, I would think you would at least agree that it is not a happy topic.

I do have a question, however. Do we have to get training in how to do an abortion? I do not plan to ever do the procedure, and have a moral objection to it. Is it required that a doctor (who is not an OB) has knowledge and training in this area in order to obtain a medical license? I hope not.

I also hope I don't get flamed, though I don't really care.
One of the anti-abortion people on here has a thing in their signature about this. I don't believe so, based on that and also on Panda Bear's comments. He encountered a similar issue I do believe, so you might PM him and ask.
 

psipsina

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Does no one else find it disturbing that there is a smiley face in this thread? Even if you do support abortion, I would think you would at least agree that it is not a happy topic.

I do have a question, however. Do we have to get training in how to do an abortion? I do not plan to ever do the procedure, and have a moral objection to it. Is it required that a doctor (who is not an OB) has knowledge and training in this area in order to obtain a medical license? I hope not.

I also hope I don't get flamed, though I don't really care.

My understanding is that at most (if not all) schools its optional, there if you are interested, ok if you're not. I know that doctors aren't legally required to provide abortions, only to refer patients to someone who will if that is the patient's desire. I think it would be weird to force you to do something outside your own moral comfort zone.
 

tacrum43

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many of us are very passionate about all aspects of women's healthcare, and we are enthusiastic to learn more about it and talk to others who share our views.

Okay then. Just seems kinda creepy for the OP to put a smiley face in the thread. I just don't see how it could ever be a happy topic. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

no worries, if you don't care to learn the procedure, you'll never have to.

Well that's a relief. I was worried it was going to be a big deal, and that I would be forced ot either do something I didn't want to or else not be able to practice medicine.
 

kelaskov

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I don't think you will find any EP who does abortions in the ED...... :rolleyes: You're making a mountain out of an anthill (it isn't even a molehill). I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess that you disagree with abortion?

My intentions in starting this thread are to find out more about abortion training outside of Obgyn/FP residencies. Program names, specifics including what's involved with the training ie. length/min # of procedures, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

I was at a wonderful conference where the keynote speaker was a pediatrition who provided elective abortion. I've also met a general surgeon pursuing abortion training. I'm interested in knowing more about non-traditional abortion providers. Do they practice in provider-shortage areas? Do they seek training due to personal ideals of feminism? etc.

As a medical student who plans to get elective abortion training but is undecided as to what specialty to persue-I'm interested in the above.
 

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A thread I started in the pediatrics forum was closed due to some nasty attacks. This thread is not meant to start an abortion debate.

Please stay on-topic.

You started this thread in Pediatrics?! And you're suprised that people flamed you out of there?

Good God, you are such a smug and self-righteous troll.
 

nibrocli

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You started this thread in Pediatrics?! And you're suprised that people flamed you out of there?

Good God, you are such a smug and self-righteous troll.

i am interested in pursuing abortion training during a pediatrics residency. the medical director of Planned Parenthood is a pediatrician. The keynote speaker at last year's Medical Students For Choice conference is also a pediatrician.

let's keep personal attacks out of this and only post if you have helpful information relevant to the original post.
cheers!
 
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OncoCaP

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My intentions in starting this thread are to find out more about abortion training outside of Obgyn/FP residencies. Program names, specifics including what's involved with the training ie. length/min # of procedures, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

I was at a wonderful conference where the keynote speaker was a pediatrition who provided elective abortion. I've also met a general surgeon pursuing abortion training. I'm interested in knowing more about non-traditional abortion providers. Do they practice in provider-shortage areas? Do they seek training due to personal ideals of feminism? etc.

As a medical student who plans to get elective abortion training but is undecided as to what specialty to persue-I'm interested in the above.

Why don't you shadow an abortion provider (a Planned Parenthood center might the logical place to start finding such a person)? That physician or mid-level provider can probably tell you about the training options. As far as the training required, it seems that if you feel this is your calling, you may be forced to go OB/GYN. It seems like there is a shortage of such providers. That being said, there may be physicians with non-accredited training providing abortions; it wouldn't surprise me.

Take a look at this Planned Parenthood article:
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/ne...es/abortion-access/abortion-training-6130.htm
"Abortion training is now seldom considered an integral part of a residency in obstetrics and gynecology, and the number of programs routinely teaching these skills has sharply dropped during the last 20 years. Further, many family practice physicians — primary caregivers who are often called upon to address a range of reproductive health needs — do not receive training in the prevention or management of unintended pregnancy.

They make it sound like it's somewhat difficult to get this training, and they seem to suggest that OB/GYN residencies are the way to get it. If anyone would know how to get the right training, I'm sure they would be the ones. Another point of contact might be the Department of Health in the state where you wish to practice. For example, the Texas Department of Health evidently licenses abortion providers and requires reporting of certain information.

States that get strict about who can perform an abortion seem to run into legal issues, but I'm not familiar with the laws beyond Roe v. Wade and various rules concerning notification, providing information, time delays, etc. (I don't know the medical training requirements that are specified by law.).

In case anyone is wondering, while I agree that some abortions are medically necessary to save the mother's life, I'm strongly opposed to elective abortions; I view them as legalized killing of children.
 

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i am interested in pursuing abortion training during a pediatrics residency. the medical director of Planned Parenthood is a pediatrician. The keynote speaker at last year's Medical Students For Choice conference is also a pediatrician.

let's keep personal attacks out of this and only post if you have helpful information relevant to the original post.
cheers!


Something really disturbing about seeing "cheers" and smiling brocoli together in a thread about abortion.

I apologize for straying away from the original subject. my bad
 

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i am interested in pursuing abortion training during a pediatrics residency. the medical director of Planned Parenthood is a pediatrician. The keynote speaker at last year's Medical Students For Choice conference is also a pediatrician.

let's keep personal attacks out of this and only post if you have helpful information relevant to the original post.
cheers!

1) The medical director for Planned Parenthood (or, to be more appropriate, the Vice President for Medical Affairs) is Dr. Vanessa Cullins, who was a practicing Ob/Gyn prior to going into health administration.

2) Good luck findng a program that does surgical training for Pediatrics residents, when only about 1/3 of Ob/Gyn programs still offer training in elective termination. I find it unlikely that any surgeon would allow a Pediatrician to work in their OR, even in a training situation.

3) Thank you for continuing to instruct us on when, and when not, to post. I'm sure I will not be the only person who will not be listening to you.

4) Your patronizing tone will undoubtedly attract a lot of flaming very soon. Know that I will find it very amusing when it occurs.

Cheers!
 

nibrocli

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I find it unlikely that any surgeon would allow a Pediatrician to work in their OR, even in a training situation.

abortions are not performed in the OR. family practice (a medical specialty, not a surgical one) physicians perform them. the term "surgical" abortion is a bit of a misnomer.

Good luck findng a program that does surgical training for Pediatrics residents
i know that Jacobi in the Bronx teaches the procedure as part of their residency in pediatrics. if anyone knows of others let us know.
thanks!

The medical director for Planned Parenthood (or, to be more appropriate, the Vice President for Medical Affairs) is Dr. Vanessa Cullins, who was a practicing Ob/Gyn prior to going into health administration.
yes, yes, Dr. Cullins is wonderful. I should have said ONE of PP's many medical directors, as we have one per affiliate. i do know of Dr. Clayton McCkracken, who is a pediatrician, and medical director of Inter Mountain PP, the affiliate in the Dakotas & Montana.
 

ForbiddenComma

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when only about 1/3 of Ob/Gyn programs still offer training in elective termination. I find it unlikely that any surgeon would allow a Pediatrician to work in their OR, even in a training situation.

Is that right? That doesn't sound right. The D&C seems like it would be standard for any OB/GYN to learn. Remember that it is performed for nonelective reasons too -- hydatiform moles, concurrant ca. in the mother, fetal death, etc. Of course residents should be able to opt out of learning, but that seems strange that 2/3 of all OB/GYN residencies don't even offer it at all.

Do you have a link for that?


BTW I give this thread 4-5 hours before it is locked due to flames :smuggrin:
 

astrife

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Does anyone know if abortions are covered by private insurance plans, medicare, or medicaid?
 

ForbiddenComma

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abortions are not performed in the OR. family practice (a medical specialty, not a surgical one) physicians perform them.

In some cases it is... I've seen it up on the board at my hospital's surgery wing a few times. Latex allergy is one reason.
 

OncoCaP

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http://www.medicine.mcgill.ca/MJM/issues/v08n02/crossroads/82157.pdf

ACCESS TO ABORTION SERVICES IN CANADA
AND THE U.S.
In spite of the legality of abortion in the U.S. and
Canada, many women continue to lack access to
abortion services. Two factors in particular- the
declining number of abortion providers and a change in
the distribution of abortion facilities- have significant
adverse consequences for women's health, particularly
for poor and rural women (17, 18). In Canada, only
17.8% of hospitals provide the service, and some
provinces have no provider (17). Similarly, in the
United States, in 2000, 87% of counties had no provider
(18).
A variety of factors have contributed to the decline in
the number of providers. They range from physicians'
personal moral objections to fears of becoming targets
of violence or harassment (19-26). In addition, certain
laws in the U.S. targeting abortion providers create
barriers, while physician-only laws restrict other
medical personnel such as nurse practitioners from
providing abortions (27, 28). Abortion education in
medical schools and residency programs is limited,
which has been shown in several studies to decrease the
likelihood of physicians choosing to provide abortions
(25, 26, 29, 30).


30. Westhoff C. Abortion training in residency programs. Journal of
American Medical Women's Association 49(5): 150-154; 1994.

ABORTION IN MEDICAL SCHOOL
CURRICULA: THE REALITY
As 48% of women aged 30-34 in the U.S. have
experienced an unintended pregnancy, and 4 out of 10
women seek abortion services sometime during their
reproductive life, the lack of abortion education in
medical curricula significantly affects medical students'
ability to address women's reproductive needs (1).
Espey et al. (2005) (3) surveyed Obstetrics and
Gynecology clerkship directors to determine the extent
of abortion education in U.S. medical schools. They
found that 17% of schools had no abortion education at
all and that in many other schools, coverage was
minimal (3).
One organization, Medical Students for
Choice (MSFC), is currently surveying medical schools
in the U.S. and Canada about their individual curricula.
The preliminary results of MSFC's study of the
reproductive health content of preclinical medical
education found that nearly 40% of the more than 50
schools surveyed do not teach any aspect of abortion in
the preclinical years (4). Indeed, the study found that,
on average, more class time is dedicated to Viagra than
to abortion procedures, pregnancy options counseling,
or abortion law and policy (4). This glimpse into U.S.
and Canadian medical curricula reveals that abortion is
not a standard component of preclinical education.
 

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BTW I give this thread 4-5 hours before it is locked due to flames :smuggrin:

No kidding, it's like a bat signal for all the SDN crazies with nothing else to do on a Saturday night. No OP I don't have any substance to contribute to the topic (being an M2 looking at residency training like a wild and distant land), but last I checked I'm a member here and can post wherever I please.
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abortions are not performed in the OR. family practice (a medical specialty, not a surgical one) physicians perform them. the term "surgical" abortion is a bit of a misnomer.

I love it when premeds tell me about surgical procedures.

In case you ever get in, you might want to know this: Although you have probably seen "abortion clinics" on television where women have elective termination done on an outpatient basis, procedures in the operating room continue to be very prevalent.

Although you present the procedure as a relatively benign and noninvasive process, I suspect you will change you tune when or if you ever have the chance to witness one. Even first trimester terminations, involving only dilation and curretage, is extrememly uncomfortable and, for many women, very painful. When done in the ED, morphine/versed is the common pain cocktail given at my institution. Many providers at my school's Ob department offer women the option of going to the OR for their procedures, where they have access to an anesthesiologist who can maintain a deeper level of sedation.

The case of second trimester D&Es is even more dramatic. I have yet to see a provider offer these in the office, as it requires a greater degree of dilation, suctioning, etc. I can imagine that there are probably some providers who do this in the office, but I have never met one.

Thank you for your input. Feel free to offer further opinions on subjects you clearly have no training in.
 

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Is that right? That doesn't sound right. The D&C seems like it would be standard for any OB/GYN to learn. Remember that it is performed for nonelective reasons too -- hydatiform moles, concurrant ca. in the mother, fetal death, etc. Of course residents should be able to opt out of learning, but that seems strange that 2/3 of all OB/GYN residencies don't even offer it at all.

Do you have a link for that?

I'll find a citation, but understand what I'm saying. I didn't say that only 1/3 of programs offer training in D&C, I said only 1/3 offer training in elective termination. The actual mechanics may be similar, but the process and counceling are different. At my home program, residents who refuse to perform elective termination are still required to learn and practice the legal, ethical, and conceling aspects of providing abortion services.


BTW I give this thread 4-5 hours before it is locked due to flames :smuggrin:

Any time a premed tries to tell the med students what they can and cannot post, you can pretty much count on it. :D
 

nibrocli

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Does anyone know if abortions are covered by private insurance plans, medicare, or medicaid?

depends on the plan. some insurance plans are really great, and will cover everything. on the other hand, i've had to tell many women that their insurance will not cover the procedure. it's terrible for them.
 

nibrocli

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Any time a premed tries to tell the med students what they can and cannot post, you can pretty much count on it. :D
i'm a med student and a former planned parenthood medical assistant and abortion coordinator, nice to meet you:)

i've seen about 100 procedures, and it's been an amazing, life-changing experience. they were all less than 18 weeks gestation. after that, they were in fact referred to a hospital. i agree that a post-18 week procedure wouldn't be done in an office setting.

anyone else have any info on residency training?
 

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Here it is, and it was lower than I thought:

The percentage of U.S. Obstetric / Gynecologist (OB-GYN) residency programs that trained residents in surgical abortion declined from the late 1970s to the mid 1990s. A study by the Alan Guttmacher Institute in 1992 revealed that:

- Only 12% required surgical first-trimester abortion training as an integral part of their course. This was a decrease from 23% in 1985.
- Only 58% included such training as an elective.
- Only 7% offered routine training in second-trimester abortions. This was a decrease from 21% in 1985.
- "More than 80% of programs in private, non-Catholic hospitals and public hospitals provided some form of abortion training in 1991-1992, but only 6% of programs in Catholic hospitals and no military programs did so." 2,3



Rita Rubin, "More med schools offer abortion training," USA Today, 2000-NOV-21, at: http://www.usatoday.com/life/health/women/lhwom143.htm

H.T. MacKay & A.P. MacKay, "Abortin training in Obstetrics and gynecology residency programs in the United States, 1991-1992," Family Planning Perspectives, Vol. 27, #3, 1995-MAY/JUN, Pages 112 to 115. Summary available at: http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/journals/2711295.html
 

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i'm a med student and a former planned parenthood medical assistant and abortion coordinator, nice to meet you:)
i've seen about 100 procedures, and it's been an amazing, life-changing experience.

anyone else have any info on residency training?

Oh really? How was it life-changing? Did it make you want to go into the medical field?

Also, given that you have worked in the industry, I'm surprised you can't just e-mail or call up some of your former co-workers and get this information? Is the list of abortion-included residencies such a well-kept secret? It just seems like there aren't that many non OB/GYN training options for abortions.

Also, do you have any information on the training requirements. Are there even any training requirements legally required in most states?
 

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i'm a med student and a former planned parenthood medical assistant and abortion coordinator, nice to meet you:)

Ah yes, a first year D.O. student, as I see from your previous posts.

Guess that kicks your credibility way up . . . :laugh:
 

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to the OP:

It's possible that you might find better information in the General Residency forum. Residents would have better answers for you about their training than your fellow med students.

I think that you will still run into the same degree of discomfort with your questions, though. It's a very sensitive subject and will draw attention whereever you post.
 

nibrocli

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to the OP:

It's possible that you might find better information in the General Residency forum. Residents would have better answers for you about their training than your fellow med students.

tried. got pretty ugly there too. thanks for the thought though.
 

OncoCaP

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tried. got pretty ugly there too. thanks for the thought though.

So you are basically admitting to being a troll? I get the impression that you already know the answer to your question and are just trying to cause trouble by taking a sensitive subject and treating it with no care whatsoever.
 

Tired

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I love it when medical student tell premeds about surgical procedures :laugh:

Oh come now. I have almost 6y experience as an ED tech, including 4 years in the ED of a Women's and Children's hospital. I went through all my third year rotations and all my MSIV sub-i's. At this point I have as much abortion experience as every resident and attending outside of Ob/Gyn and FP.

Then all of a sudden I'm getting told by someone that abortions aren't done in the operating room, that they're not surgical procedures, and that they're simple and benign. In addition the same poster "instructs" everyone on what they can and cannot post, but doesn't even know who the medical director is of an organization he/she supposedly worked for?

You would suggest what, that I not call bullsh!t when I read it?
 

nibrocli

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Oh really? How was it life-changing? Did it make you want to go into the medical field?
well, given your comment on legalized child killing, i'd rather not go into that now.
Also, given that you have worked in the industry, I'm surprised you can't just e-mail or call up some of your former co-workers and get this information? Is the list of abortion-included residencies such a well-kept secret? It just seems like there aren't that many non OB/GYN training options.
yeah, the standard is definitely the ob/gyn or fp route. the only docs i know personally got trained that way. but since i'm not leaning ob/gyn or fp right now, i thought this huge public forum might be such a great info resource.

Also, do you have any information on the training requirements. Are there even any training requirements legally required in most states?
hmmm...i don't know about specific training requirements. but i know you can't do it unless you have proper training. i think the specific rules vary by state.
 

nibrocli

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So you are basically admitting to being a troll? I get the impression that you already know the answer to your question and are just trying to cause trouble by taking a sensitive subject and treating it with no care whatsoever.

no, not at all! i certainly don't know the answers about training. i only know about obgyn or fp training.
and i didn't start this thread. but i think the OP saw the thread i did start, shared an interest, and tried again here.
 

OncoCaP

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well, given your comment on legalized child killing, i'd rather not go into that now.

Ok, I can respect that.

yeah, the standard is definitely the ob/gyn or fp route. the only docs i know personally got trained that way. but since i'm not leaning ob/gyn or fp right now, i thought this huge public forum might be such a great info resource.

I didn't realize that the FP practice route was "standard" for getting abortion training.

With respect to your thinking you either lack judgment, basic sensitivity, or are a troll who likes negative attention (perhaps without realizing it).


hmmm...i don't know about specific training requirements. but i know you can't do it unless you have proper training. i think the specific rules vary by state.

How do you know you can't do it unless you have "proper training"? What does "proper training" mean anyway? Is this just your impression or can you quote a law?

Also, why don't you talk to your former employer? Did you make them mad and they won't talk to you anymore? It seems like you should already have the resource at your fingertips (outside of SDN, where you will get flamed). You story doesn't hang together.

By the way, do you like VeggieTales? Your Avatar reminded me of them:

veggietales.jpg

veggietales_godloves.jpg
 
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