Official 2009/2010 rank list help thread

[ResidentMD]

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That was an uncharacteristically strong fellowship match year for Cornell, imo. They might be borderline top 10, but the match doesn't always look so good. Also curious why you would put Stanford 5th, their fellowship match generally is no where near as impressive as Columbia, UPenn, Duke or even some of the other programs you mentioned. They seem to get an undeserved boost from the university name, just like Yale does. Both are great residency programs obviously, but certainly not in the top 7-8.

Why this sudden hate for Yale? I have heard only good things on this forum about that program, except for the fact that it is in New Haven. Can someone who has actually interviewed at that program (because I know a lot of people who canceled it), please give an unbiased opinion?

 

[jdh71]

I actually did an away rotation at Mayo and found this whole "fellow driven" thing a bit overblown. It is true that residents carry less patients and have more limited access to procedures but, at least during my time there, residents were running the show. It is not that I fully disagree but I do find the reputation at odds with what I observed first hand.

I think that people that like Mayo . . . really like Mayo. There is NOTHING necessarily wrong with Mayo, and it would be a great place to train, and you WILL find fellowship placement out of Mayo. Staying at Mayo for fellowship is NOT in my books a bad sign the weirdest, strangest, and coolest stuff makes its way to Mayo regularly. Look, until you've had a procedure snaked by a fellow, you may not have the appropriate perspective on what I'm trying to say. I think you are ultimately a better prepared Internist OVERALL coming out of a program like Vandy than Mayo, because of the busy nature of their program. Mayo is more cerebral, a fellowship factory if you will. The world takes all kinds.

With regards to my list: UVA, UNC, Vanderbilt, Mayo...I find myself wondering about UVA, which, although not as prestigious in official lists, seems to have a more varied and, at times, more impressive fellowship match...as it has already been discussed above, this may be because the other programs have a lot of in-house matches...Nonetheless, UVA just seemed to afford more mobility...any thoughts?

I think if you want to play the odds on a purely fellowship match basis, then the ranking are pretty clear. If you liked UVA, then you need to consider UVA higher. You will do better in a program you like. You will be a better fellowship candidate coming form a place where you thrive, then one where you don't, I think even if you have a "big name" on your application.

I think for myself, the process of ranking based on gut feeling work out very well for me personally. I ranked based on where I thought I would do well and get along, and so far I have not been disappointed.

 

[Scaredshizzles]

Why this sudden hate for Yale? I have heard only good things on this forum about that program, except for the fact that it is in New Haven. Can someone who has actually interviewed at that program (because I know a lot of people who canceled it), please give an unbiased opinion?

I'm not hating on Yale at all, I think they are close to being a top 10 program too. I'm just pointing out the obvious that IM program strength obviously doesn't correlate to a med school or university strength ranking. Yale usually only gets 2-3 of their own students into the IM program, and I believe 0 last year. Of course the majority of their students are winding up at Harvard or UCSF. Stanford I think usually gets 3-4 of their own students, and they have a small med school class to begin with, so they do a little better. Even though both are easily in the top 10 of med school rankings, the IM programs are probably on the outside looking in. Whereas programs like Columbia and Cornell probably rank higher in IM than they do as med schools in general.

 

[IMpassion]

I don't have any direct experience with Yale. Stanford I know very well.
The quality of housestaff and faculty are key to a residency. The trainees I've worked with out of Stanford are outstanding and can run with the best of em. Stanford has a small residency class so they most likely have no problem filling it with an excellent group of residents year after year. I know that a good number at least interviewed at MGH, BWH, Hopkins, and also Columbia/Cornell (if they even decided to apply) and I suspect could have matched there if they chose. Stanford residents are quite self selective. Most want to be at Stanford for the unique academic and living environment that it is (hard to be unhappy when it's sunny year round). Most wanted to be on the West Coast and California specifically and many didn't even seriously consider New York city programs. I'm sure the reverse is also true. Place a New Yorker in Palo Alto and he'll cry torture cause it's so boring. For this reason it's usually not helpful or accurate to compare these programs head to head. It's about fit. Outside of UCSF, MGH, BWH, and Hopkins which no doubt are in a league their own, you're splitting hairs when you try to "rank" these programs.

I don't know much about Columbia and Cornell fellowship placement. The lists look great. But Stanford also matches extremely well to fellowship. The fact that many Stanford residents stay there isn't a bad sign. They want to stay because they love Stanford. Other popular destinations are UCSF and UCLA. It's hard to get Californians to leave California.

 

[chitown82]

Why this sudden hate for Yale? I have heard only good things on this forum about that program, except for the fact that it is in New Haven. Can someone who has actually interviewed at that program (because I know a lot of people who canceled it), please give an unbiased opinion?

I was not that impressed with Yale. The IM program is certainly not as reputable as the medical school. Few residents gave the impression it was their top choice. Fellowship matches were ok - nothing to write home about. In the Northeast, there are at least 5-6 programs that are "stronger" overall. I would be hard pressed calling them a top 15 program. Certainly in the top 25. New Haven sucks too.

 

[chitown82]

I don't have any direct experience with Yale. Stanford I know very well.
The quality of housestaff and faculty are key to a residency. The trainees I've worked with out of Stanford are outstanding and can run with the best of em. Stanford has a small residency class so they most likely have no problem filling it with an excellent group of residents year after year. I know that a good number at least interviewed at MGH, BWH, Hopkins, and also Columbia/Cornell (if they even decided to apply) and I suspect could have matched there if they chose. Stanford residents are quite self selective. Most want to be at Stanford for the unique academic and living environment that it is (hard to be unhappy when it's sunny year round). Most wanted to be on the West Coast and California specifically and many didn't even seriously consider New York city programs. I'm sure the reverse is also true. Place a New Yorker in Palo Alto and he'll cry torture cause it's so boring. For this reason it's usually not helpful or accurate to compare these programs head to head. It's about fit. Outside of UCSF, MGH, BWH, and Hopkins which no doubt are in a league their own, you're splitting hairs when you try to "rank" these programs.

I don't know much about Columbia and Cornell fellowship placement. The lists look great. But Stanford also matches extremely well to fellowship. The fact that many Stanford residents stay there isn't a bad sign. They want to stay because they love Stanford. Other popular destinations are UCSF and UCLA. It's hard to get Californians to leave California.

Thanks for the info. I was thinking of canceling Stanford but I guess I'll check it out.

 

[velezio]

Cornell is a TOP TEN residency program... an amazing residency program and where everyone wants to live ! Right after the obvious "Big Dog" places 1. MGH 2. Hopkins 3. Brighams 4. UCSF 5. Stanford 6. Columbia 7. U. Penn 8. Duke 9. Wash U. 10. CORNELL (lots of others like UCLA, Yale, U. Mich, U. Washington, BIDMC, U. Chicago), but cornell's location and synergy with Columbia Presybyterian and ability to attract top talent based on its location, places this place above the others...

Is this true or is this just an SDN bias (and a personal bias since you're a student there)? I posted earlier my thoughts about Cornell compared to the other Manhattan programs, and I feel Cornell gets a lot of credit only because of its name and its merger with Columbia (and feel that Cornell rides with Columbia's prestige but is not as prestigious itself). Also, that fellowship match list is indeed excellent, but the ones from other years are less impressive. Add that to the fact that the program is sort of an unknown right now with their recent issues, I don't know how strong future fellowship match lists will be.

I had a better feel at Columbia, NYU, and Mount Sinai. Everyday I keep moving trying to convince myself that I should move Cornell higher up on my list than those three because of Cornell's name. I know I can convince myself to move it higher than NYU, but I don't see much of a benefit to going to Cornell over Columbia or Mount Sinai. Any other opinions on this subject?

 

[Scaredshizzles]

I don't have any direct experience with Yale. Stanford I know very well.
The quality of housestaff and faculty are key to a residency. The trainees I've worked with out of Stanford are outstanding and can run with the best of em. Stanford has a small residency class so they most likely have no problem filling it with an excellent group of residents year after year. I know that a good number at least interviewed at MGH, BWH, Hopkins, and also Columbia/Cornell (if they even decided to apply) and I suspect could have matched there if they chose. Stanford residents are quite self selective. Most want to be at Stanford for the unique academic and living environment that it is (hard to be unhappy when it's sunny year round). Most wanted to be on the West Coast and California specifically and many didn't even seriously consider New York city programs. I'm sure the reverse is also true. Place a New Yorker in Palo Alto and he'll cry torture cause it's so boring. For this reason it's usually not helpful or accurate to compare these programs head to head. It's about fit. Outside of UCSF, MGH, BWH, and Hopkins which no doubt are in a league their own, you're splitting hairs when you try to "rank" these programs.

I don't know much about Columbia and Cornell fellowship placement. The lists look great. But Stanford also matches extremely well to fellowship. The fact that many Stanford residents stay there isn't a bad sign. They want to stay because they love Stanford. Other popular destinations are UCSF and UCLA. It's hard to get Californians to leave California.

It's sunny year round in the San Francisco Bay Area?? That' a new one to me. It's temperate weather year round (i.e. in the 50-70 range pretty much all 12 months), I will agree to that. Sunny? That is more LA.

It is hard for me to judge the argument that people want to stay in the area. People say they want to stay in the New York area too, but then you look at Columbia's fellowship match list, and all of the sudden people are thrilled to go to the top fellowships around the country. The problem with judging things on the "people want to stay" argument is that what else are people going to tell you if they are unable to match to top fellowships elsewhere? Are they going to be honest and say if they hate a place but are still there because they couldn't land a better fellowship elsewhere? Probably not. They will say precisely that they chose to stay because they enjoyed their experience there.

My impression of Stanford is that it is a pretty strong place for people who wish to be clinician scientists. They obviously don't have the reputation for rigorous clinical training, and that is why they don't match as well in fellowships. They do tend to attract some of the left-overs from placing like Harvard or Columbia med school. If you come from a big name med school, and do a research oriented type of residency at Stanford, you can probably go back to a place like MGH for fellowship training. That actually works out to a pretty sweet deal because you really want that rigorous clinical training more during fellowship than residency itself.

 

[dreamfox]

Is this true or is this just an SDN bias (and a personal bias since you're a student there)? I posted earlier my thoughts about Cornell compared to the other Manhattan programs, and I feel Cornell gets a lot of credit only because of its name and its merger with Columbia (and feel that Cornell rides with Columbia's prestige but is not as prestigious itself). Also, that fellowship match list is indeed excellent, but the ones from other years are less impressive. Add that to the fact that the program is sort of an unknown right now with their recent issues, I don't know how strong future fellowship match lists will be.

I had a better feel at Columbia, NYU, and Mount Sinai. Everyday I keep moving trying to convince myself that I should move Cornell higher up on my list than those three because of Cornell's name. I know I can convince myself to move it higher than NYU, but I don't see much of a benefit to going to Cornell over Columbia or Mount Sinai. Any other opinions on this subject?

Go wherever you feel comfortable. I interviewed everywhere in the city and chose Cornell #1 (intern now). Sinai, Columbia, and Cornell are all great programs. It's been said before - if you want to do your fellowship outside of the city, Cornell has a better name than Sinai. I chose Cornell because I liked the people better, the location is much better, and the housing is the best in the city.

Cornell doesn't need "Columbia's prestige". New York Hospital is the most famous hospital in the city. Those "recent issues" have never been a problem and were fixed before I even started (old work hour violations - same thing hopkins and uw went through).

Again, if you liked the other programs better, then go where you would be happiest. Don't choose a program because of its name.

My $0.02.

 

[EaglesPA]

Why this sudden hate for Yale? I have heard only good things on this forum about that program, except for the fact that it is in New Haven. Can someone who has actually interviewed at that program (because I know a lot of people who canceled it), please give an unbiased opinion?

It is the opinion of people who have no first hand knowledge of the program - just hear say and a bias against New Haven.
If you got an interview there, I suggest you go and when you get the information yourself, you can judge.
It is true the Yale Med is more highly regarded than Yale-New Haven hospital.
However, YNHH is no slouch either. Doing an IM residency at Yale will land you with connections in the academic medicine world that will get you far if you want to stay in academia. If you take a look at where the Yale IM residents match for fellowship, you'll find that it is indeed very strong. I would say that if you were to look at the fellowship placements the last 4 years you will find that in the Northeast, only MGH, Brigham, Hopkins, Penn and Columbia do better. They hold their own against Cornell, Sinai or BIDMC.
As far as the clinical training itself, with YNHH, the VA and community affiliates like Waterbury and Bridgeport, you get a well-rounded training. For those interested in clinical research, the have the Robert Wood Johnson fellowship.
Anyway, the point is do not base your decisions on what people say on SDN - get first hand information and judge yourself.

 

[catfish2010]

I am couples matching (both going into IM) and would like a strong program yet friendly-feel. I am interested in GI.

UTSW
Emory
UAB
MUSC
WashU
Tulane
Houston Baylor
Dallas Baylor
UT Houston
San Antonio HSC
UF Gainesville
UF Jacksonville
Mayo Jacksonville
Scott and White, Temple TX
U of Tenn Memphis

 

[jdh71]

I am couples matching (both going into IM) and would like a strong program yet friendly-feel. I am interested in GI.

UTSW
Emory
UAB
MUSC
WashU
Tulane
Houston Baylor
Dallas Baylor
UT Houston
San Antonio HSC
UF Gainesville
UF Jacksonville
Mayo Jacksonville
Scott and White, Temple TX
U of Tenn Memphis

I'm not as familiar with the GI world, but you'll want to be as high up the food chain as possible IMHO (provided you think you're a good fit, right? same thing we always say, anyway . . .)

WashU
UTSW
Houston Real Baylor
Emory
UAB
Tulane
MUSC

Scott and White, Temple TX (I just ****ing like this program)
Mayo Jacksonville (In house fellowships?)

Everything else . . . admittedly I know next to nothing about Florida programs.

 

[DrinkSKYY]

Wow, haven't posted on SDN in a long while (read applying to medical school). Anyway, wouldn't mind getting the opinions of the masses on how best to rank my programs. I'm couples matching (IM + pediatrics), and am interested in cards. I'd prefer to be in a big(ger) city with cool stuff to do. In alphabetical order:

Case Western/University Hospitals
University of Alabama Birmingham
University of Chicago
University of California San Diego
University of Maryland
University of Michigan
University of North Carolina
University of Pittsburgh
University of Texas Southwestern
University of Vermont
University of Virginia
University of Washington
University of Wisconsin
Vanderbilt University
Washington University
Yale University

 

[Frugal Traveler]

Wow, haven't posted on SDN in a long while (read applying to medical school). Anyway, wouldn't mind getting the opinions of the masses on how best to rank my programs. I'm couples matching (IM + pediatrics), and am interested in cards. I'd prefer to be in a big(ger) city with cool stuff to do. In alphabetical order:

Case Western/University Hospitals
University of Alabama Birmingham
University of Chicago
University of California San Diego
University of Maryland
University of Michigan
University of North Carolina
University of Pittsburgh
University of Texas Southwestern
University of Vermont
University of Virginia
University of Washington
University of Wisconsin
Vanderbilt University
Washington University
Yale University

It depends on whether you are the male or female in the couple ... because we all know the latter is making the decision.

 

[gutonc]

I'm not hating on Yale at all, I think they are close to being a top 10 program too.

I just want to point out that, based on the scuttlebutt in the 20 most current threads in this forum, there are roughly 75 "Top 10" programs out there. For those bio majors out there, this is not mathematically possible.

As an aside, Yale is not (nor is it anywhere near) #10. 75 or better? Absolutely.

 

[mbadoc]

Is this true or is this just an SDN bias (and a personal bias since you're a student there)? I posted earlier my thoughts about Cornell compared to the other Manhattan programs, and I feel Cornell gets a lot of credit only because of its name and its merger with Columbia (and feel that Cornell rides with Columbia's prestige but is not as prestigious itself). Also, that fellowship match list is indeed excellent, but the ones from other years are less impressive. Add that to the fact that the program is sort of an unknown right now with their recent issues, I don't know how strong future fellowship match lists will be.

I had a better feel at Columbia, NYU, and Mount Sinai. Everyday I keep moving trying to convince myself that I should move Cornell higher up on my list than those three because of Cornell's name. I know I can convince myself to move it higher than NYU, but I don't see much of a benefit to going to Cornell over Columbia or Mount Sinai. Any other opinions on this subject?

First of all, I agree that Cornell gets its "boost" from its name and merger with Columbia and location but this "boost" is REAL meaning it actually translates to better faculty because everyone wants to be in manhattan, the cardiology service is tied to columbia (cornell's CCU gets referred patients from Columbia and vice versa as well as former Columbia faculty at cornell), extremely high level tertiary/quartenary care (Kings/Princes from other countries and celebrities choose to come here), lots of $$$ which means we have TOP notch EMR, ancillary services, housing making life easier for residents, etc. etc.

As fellowships go, I know a lot of residents who could of gotten into UCLA, U. Chicago, Cleveland Clinic, Wash U., Yale, U. Mich etc. but chose a lower tier fellowship in NYC because most people want to stay in New york above anything else. As far as that goes, Cornell is the best. There is no problems with the program, all of the work hour violations are corrected - and in fact easier now than most programs because they are so sensitive to these issues now. ACGME had to make an example with a prominent, famous program, like it did with Hopkins a few years ago - its almost an honor...

I would never say Cornell is better than Columbia but it is definately the BEST in the east coast after MGH/Brigham/Upenn/columbia. I would guess that 8/10 would choose Cornell over mt. sinai or NYU if we were to take a poll. Its nationally known and well deserved.

 

[TopsyTurvey]

I'm technically applying in Med-Peds, but since one of my primary criteria for the combined program is having strong categorical programs, I thought I'd check-in to see people's impressions of the IM aspect of my "top 10." (Don't worry about the peds side of things ... I'll ask about that on the peds forums. =)

I do plan to pursue a fellowship, but am interested first in a well-rounded IM experience. I'd like to find a place that is simultaneously rigorous and nurturing (a person can dream, right?). And I'm also prioritizing the quality of my co-residents (looking for bright/competent docs, but also people who are compassionate, committed, creative and love what they do).

Brigham
Duke
UCSD
Rochester
Minnesota
Brown
Cincinnati
Michigan
Baylor
MSSM
Baystate (Tufts)

(Yes, I know ... it's actually 11 programs. =)

Any advice would be welcomed. If any of these programs has real drawbacks/red flags, I'd love to hear about them ... I'd also love to hear about specific strengths of the programs you put towards the top of the list.

Thanks so much!

 

[Frugal Traveler]

Brigham was one of my favorites on the interview circuit as Katz is a delightful program director. Duke, Michigan, and Baylor IM are also impressive.

As far as the combined residency, you should ask on the combined forum for opinions. Like doesn't Cincinnati have one of the best children hospitals?

Michigan I thought also had a strong med-peds program. I am not sure about the set-up at Duke.

It really depends if you want to be in IM, peds, or a house divided (which may or may not stand long-term)... which is great fodder for the combined forum.

The other thing you want to make sure of is that the leadership is strong. For instance, at Michigan, I remember being super-paranoid because the IM site was so well integrated with the med-peds site. Then, we had some speaker from the peds department at the medicine department conference. At that place, I am sure that you are treated really well with the combined program. Brigham also had incredibly thoughtful leadership, which I am sure carries to the MP program as well.

 

[johnnywalker]

I'm technically applying in Med-Peds, but since one of my primary criteria for the combined program is having strong categorical programs, I thought I'd check-in to see people's impressions of the IM aspect of my "top 10." (Don't worry about the peds side of things ... I'll ask about that on the peds forums. =)

I do plan to pursue a fellowship, but am interested first in a well-rounded IM experience. I'd like to find a place that is simultaneously rigorous and nurturing (a person can dream, right?). And I'm also prioritizing the quality of my co-residents (looking for bright/competent docs, but also people who are compassionate, committed, creative and love what they do).

Brigham
Duke
UCSD
Rochester
Minnesota
Brown
Cincinnati
Michigan
Baylor
MSSM
Baystate (Tufts)

(Yes, I know ... it's actually 11 programs. =)

Any advice would be welcomed. If any of these programs has real drawbacks/red flags, I'd love to hear about them ... I'd also love to hear about specific strengths of the programs you put towards the top of the list.

Thanks so much!

well i'd have to say you are missing some programs (Pitt, Case/Rainbow & UNC for example) that have balanced sides and good fellowship placement, but personally i'd be hardpressed to go somewhere without a stand alone children's Hospital....but, again, you should ask this in the combined forum.

 

[temmie]

I would never say Cornell is better than Columbia but it is definately the BEST in the east coast after MGH/Brigham/Upenn/columbia. I would guess that 8/10 would choose Cornell over mt. sinai or NYU if we were to take a poll. Its nationally known and well deserved.

I guess this points to the subjectivity of this whole process and the fact that we each have that "good" feeling about different places.

For me, after interviewing at cornell, i was actually disappointed and felt that most of its reputation is all hype. I did not get a good vibe from the interview day. My interviews went great and my interviewers showed they were impressed by my achievements.

When we rounded with the teams, although my team was good, most of the other interviewees were surprised because they did had less than impressive time during rounds.

Also, one of the leadership members that interviewed me straight out broke the whole "stupid" interview rule about not asking about where else i interviewed. They not only asked but wrote it down. This is not the first time that's happened on the trail but coming from someone up there, definitely did not speak well of the program IMO (note..MY opinion)

I am sure there are some folks that probably LOVED the program, i wish them all the best but for me, aka coming from out of the NY area, i was disappointed and definitely not sure if i felt better here or at some "lower ranking" places. Really made me wonder if their fellowship match is based on some past glory.

Goes back to "it's not all about the rank but where you fit". I apologize if this rubs anyone the wrong way and maybe i expected too much when i interviewed there weeks ago but ........my 2 cents

 

[temmie]

It depends on whether you are the male or female in the couple ... because we all know the latter is making the decision.

Nyce one frugal 🙂 I totally agree

 

[adam6]

Michigan I thought also had a strong med-peds program.

I completely agree. I've had very good experiences with the med-peds residents who have rotated on my service (endocrine). They have been very sharp, enthusiastic, and conscientious. There is a nice mix of MD/ MD-PhDs with interests that range from clinical to basic science. Additionally, they seem to have very good job/fellowship prospects. The program directors are reportedly fantastic.

 

[TopsyTurvey]

Thanks. The MedPeds PDs at Michigan were great -- as they were at all of the places I'm thinking of ranking. During MedPeds interviews we get a pretty good sense of the people and the culture of the *combined* program, but we don't get a lot of insights into the people and culture of the *categorical* program ... that's why I'm trying to get some IM-specific thoughts on these programs. In terms of the IM aspect alone, how might you rank-order these schools?

Thanks!!!

 

[Katia482]

I know that this will seem like an odd match up as these two programs are totally different in terms of geography, but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the University of Colorado program compared to Thomas Jefferson.

I have strong personal ties in both Denver and Philadelphia, and liked both programs, so I am now looking to reputation to factor in to my decision.

I am possibly interested in cards, and very unlikely to be interested in pulm/CC (which would give Colorado a clear advantage).

 

[StudentDocIM]

Maybe this will help with some comparisons. I applied broadly for my couples match. A PD at a top IM program (*East Coast*) looked over the list. Usual disclaimers about 'opinion' and 'right match for you' apply.

UCLA - A
USC - B-
UCSF - A+
Stanford - A
UC-Irvine B-
UCSD - B+

U Colorado - A-

Yale Categorical - A-

U Miami - B

Emory - A-

U Iowa - A-

U Illinois Chicago - C
U Chicago - A-/B+
Northwestern - A-

Michigan - A

Mayo Clinic - A

WashU - A

Duke - A

UNC - B+

Wake - B

NYU - B-
Cornell - B+
Mt Sinai - A-/B+
Columbia - A
Albert Einstein Montefiore - C

Cleveland Clinic - C
Case Western - B+

TJ - B/B+
Penn - A
Pitt - A-

Vandy - A

Baylor - B+
UT-Houston - B

U of Washington - A

 

[CaliIMDoc]

Help!

My list:
UCLA
UCLA Harbor
UCLA Olive View


Is it like Hopkins vs Hopkins Bayview (both good), Yale vs Yale PC (both good), Hopkins vs Hopkins Sinai (not good) ... ?

 

[Scaredshizzles]

Maybe this will help with some comparisons. I applied broadly for my couples match. A PD at a top IM program (*East Coast*) looked over the list. Usual disclaimers about 'opinion' and 'right match for you' apply.

UCLA - A
USC - B-
UCSF - A+
Stanford - A
UC-Irvine B-
UCSD - B+

U Colorado - A-

Yale Categorical - A-

U Miami - B

Emory - A-

U Iowa - A-

U Illinois Chicago - C
U Chicago - A-/B+
Northwestern - A-

Michigan - A

Mayo Clinic - A

WashU - A

Duke - A

UNC - B+

Wake - B

NYU - B-
Cornell - B+
Mt Sinai - A-/B+
Columbia - A
Albert Einstein Montefiore - C

Cleveland Clinic - C
Case Western - B+

TJ - B/B+
Penn - A
Pitt - A-

Vandy - A

Baylor - B+
UT-Houston - B

U of Washington - A

This is pretty accurate; I would shift Upenn, Duke and Columbia to A+ and UCSF to A++..and maybe Cornell to A/A-.but otherwise not much to disagree with on that list.

 

[jonsir]

Help!

My list:
UCLA
UCLA Harbor
UCLA Olive View


Is it like Hopkins vs Hopkins Bayview (both good), Yale vs Yale PC (both good), Hopkins vs Hopkins Sinai (not good) ... ?

Isn't that obvious? I would rank it the way you wrote 'em down. But that's just me.

 

[ResidentMD]

I think Yale Categorical deserves an A (when UCSF is A+ or A++)
UIC should be a B, Northwestern B+ (from what I hear on this forum)
Duke- A+
UNC - B+ (no way, from what I hear UNC deserves A-)
NYU, Cornell in B's - no way!
Monte - C (come on, is it so bad?)
Cleveland Clinic - C (same thing, so bad?)
Penn should be A+
Baylor A- (its doesnt deserve a B)
UT-Houston - B (agreed)


I think your list is okay, but I think NY programs arent that bad.

 

[StudentDocIM]

I think Yale Categorical deserves an A (when UCSF is A+ or A++)
UIC should be a B, Northwestern B+ (from what I hear on this forum)
Duke- A+
UNC - B+ (no way, from what I hear UNC deserves A-)
NYU, Cornell in B's - no way!
Monte - C (come on, is it so bad?)
Cleveland Clinic - C (same thing, so bad?)
Penn should be A+
Baylor A- (its doesnt deserve a B)
UT-Houston - B (agreed)


I think your list is okay, but I think NY programs arent that bad.

After interviewing at many places on my list (+Baltimore/Boston, left off the list for "conflict of interest" reasons), I agree that the list is okay - a B+ if you will. You bring up Baylor, for example, which did impress me with the three hospital system as a place to get excellent clinical experience.

I put it up (my first post, by the way) because it may be useful to some people. That said, it is a single data point from a biased source. It was intended for me and my match. It comes as a casual opinion from my advisor, a program director at a "top 5" IM program (at least according to the people who post in this forum). Please use it only if it is useful to you!
Cheers.

 

[futureres]

Is this true or is this just an SDN bias (and a personal bias since you're a student there)? I posted earlier my thoughts about Cornell compared to the other Manhattan programs, and I feel Cornell gets a lot of credit only because of its name and its merger with Columbia (and feel that Cornell rides with Columbia's prestige but is not as prestigious itself). Also, that fellowship match list is indeed excellent, but the ones from other years are less impressive. Add that to the fact that the program is sort of an unknown right now with their recent issues, I don't know how strong future fellowship match lists will be.

I had a better feel at Columbia, NYU, and Mount Sinai. Everyday I keep moving trying to convince myself that I should move Cornell higher up on my list than those three because of Cornell's name. I know I can convince myself to move it higher than NYU, but I don't see much of a benefit to going to Cornell over Columbia or Mount Sinai. Any other opinions on this subject?

There will always be differences in opinion but to me, Columbia was the stronger program vs. Cornell based on the interview experience and overall reputation among peer institutions. It's not as if you'd be hurting either way-go where you want. Columbia definitely came across as a more intense program, esp. during internship year, which you may/may not like.

 

[medschoolrules]

My dillemmas:

I'm interested in ID and general medicine for international medicine reasons, as well as possibly heme/onc. Regardless, i think i want to stay in academics in one way or the other. Here's what my list looks like.

I know my top 2 (Emory and Duke) but am unsure which should be first. Is the reputation of Duke so much better that I would be making a mistake by listing emory #1?

#3-10 on my list, in no particular order:
Northwestern
Pitt
Michigan
Wash U St Louis
Yale
Cornell
Mt Sinai
Brown

Any thoughts on how I should rank those? Geography doesnt matter that much except that i am looking for a diverse patient population.

 

[Frugal Traveler]

My dillemmas:

I'm interested in ID and general medicine for international medicine reasons, as well as possibly heme/onc. Regardless, i think i want to stay in academics in one way or the other. Here's what my list looks like.

I know my top 2 (Emory and Duke) but am unsure which should be first. Is the reputation of Duke so much better that I would be making a mistake by listing emory #1?

#3-10 on my list, in no particular order:
Northwestern
Pitt
Michigan
Wash U St Louis
Yale
Cornell
Mt Sinai
Brown

Any thoughts on how I should rank those? Geography doesnt matter that much except that i am looking for a diverse patient population.

Duke tops Emory easy. In the post-Hurst era, the department is not at its golden years. Del Rio is transferring to some other job and a new PD is taking over (it was not well explained on interview day... but it was change you could believe in). If you liked Emory better than Duke, by all means rank it # 1. Emory does have advantages for ID as Grady has some disastrous patients and their own TB isolation unit. Plus, there is the opportunity with the CDC.
Bottom line is that I saw the top programs in the country, and the education and quality of residents at Duke represents one of the best programs in the country. Program director there is delightful and caring. You get 3 hospitals relatively close to each other rather than the sprawling, traffic-laden mass called Atlanta (which Frugal Traveler rates as one of the worst airports).
They both have different environments and aims, and some people will fit much better at Emory than Duke or vice versa.

Yale has a great global health program, and Yale medicine has a great reputation that is not riding on the coattails of where 18 year olds learn biology (as someone else on the forum claimed). In fact, Yale has the prototypical global health program that Stanford now also has.

Michigan also has great clinical training, but ID is not as strong I felt.

WashU is an all-around great institution with excellent research going on that residents can be involved in. It seemed like a cards factory, but I am sure you can do well in ID there as well.

Bottom line: Think about what your gut feeling was and go with it.

PS I'm not related to Dick Vitale, baby.

 

[shydrager]

Del Rio is continuing at Emory as the chair of the new global health department. This was well-explained on my interview day 🙂

 

[Frugal Traveler]

Del Rio is continuing at Emory as the chair of the new global health department. This was well-explained on my interview day 🙂

Thanks for the update. Another mystery is solved

 

[tarlovcyst]

Those are not the IM stats. Almost ALL american grads match in their top 3. You must have gotten some bad info.

JDH71, my stats are dead accurate (no pun intended). They are also the most recent -- from 2009 NRMP statistics.

My source is http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf.

For ALL US seniors that matched, average ranked programs was 8.7, while for all US seniors that did not match, average ranked programs was 4.3. There are what the official stats show; please reveal your source to substantiate your claim that these aren't the true IM stats.

Again, let me just reiterate to others that IM applicants should not be mislead by uncredited information or a false sense of security that ranking 5 programs for an AMG is safe. Nobody knows how anyone will match, and your stats can't predict that either.

It's a myth to believe that most AMGs match within the top 3 of their choices in IM. Frankly speaking, there is no reliable source to back that claim. Secondly, how far down the list an applicant goes largely depends on many factors, including what med school they attended and the tier of medicine programs they interviewed at. Again, too many factors. But in all of the residents I know, most matched within the top 5 on a rank list in IM. But that's only based from my experience alone.

 

[gutonc]

JDH71, my stats are dead accurate (no pun intended). They are also the most recent -- from 2009 NRMP statistics.

My source is http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf.

For ALL US seniors that matched, average ranked programs was 8.7, while for all US seniors that did not match, average ranked programs was 4.3.

You are misinterpreting the data. This doesn't mean that, in order to match, the average US grad had to rank almost 9 spots. Nor does it mean that, those who ranked only 4 spots were unsuccessful in the Match.

These data simply mean (no shocker here) that those applicants who got more interviews (and subsequently ranked more programs) were more likely to match than those who got fewer interviews and therefore ranked fewer programs. If you got 20 interviews and ranked 3 programs, you are far more likely to match than someone who got 3 interviews and ranked those 3 programs.

 

[futureres]

My dillemmas:

I'm interested in ID and general medicine for international medicine reasons, as well as possibly heme/onc. Regardless, i think i want to stay in academics in one way or the other. Here's what my list looks like.

I know my top 2 (Emory and Duke) but am unsure which should be first. Is the reputation of Duke so much better that I would be making a mistake by listing emory #1?

#3-10 on my list, in no particular order:
Northwestern
Pitt
Michigan
Wash U St Louis
Yale
Cornell
Mt Sinai
Brown

Any thoughts on how I should rank those? Geography doesnt matter that much except that i am looking for a diverse patient population.

Whoaaa...your top 2 are quite different. Emory has diversity built into their system (Grady is as "diverse" as it gets + VA), so I'll definitely give it a plus for that. But Duke has a few community hospitals + a VA so I think it balances out. Unless you REALLY hate Durham and REALLY love Atlanta, or saw tons of red flags during your Duke interview, Duke provides a residency opportunity that is hard to pass up IMHO. This pertains to internal medicine training overall, not ID specifically.

However, if you are looking for a CDC connection for ID, Emory has the edge. However, I'm not too keen on choosing a program based on a single specialty. LOL @ Frugal Traveler-I agree about the PD issue. Overall, you want solid IM training (you'll get it at both places) and want to see that the program places its graduates in strong fellowship programs across multiple specialties. I was not overjoyed by my Emory experience-traveling back/forth between University hospital to Grady in Atlanta traffic to go to clinics...not ideal. Residents during my interview day (with the exception of the chiefs) seemed less than thrilled. For me, my gut argued against it but I do respect Emory's program. I love Duke, and it is truly one of the best programs in the country.

Yale, Michigan, Cornell, and Wash U stand out the most in your #3-10 list. Michigan is awesome and underrated imo. Yale is great too, especially for global health.

 

[Phineus]

JDH71, my stats are dead accurate (no pun intended). They are also the most recent -- from 2009 NRMP statistics.

My source is http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf.

For ALL US seniors that matched, average ranked programs was 8.7, while for all US seniors that did not match, average ranked programs was 4.3. There are what the official stats show; please reveal your source to substantiate your claim that these aren't the true IM stats.

Again, let me just reiterate to others that IM applicants should not be mislead by uncredited information or a false sense of security that ranking 5 programs for an AMG is safe. Nobody knows how anyone will match, and your stats can't predict that either.

It's a myth to believe that most AMGs match within the top 3 of their choices in IM. Frankly speaking, there is no reliable source to back that claim. Secondly, how far down the list an applicant goes largely depends on many factors, including what med school they attended and the tier of medicine programs they interviewed at. Again, too many factors. But in all of the residents I know, most matched within the top 5 on a rank list in IM. But that's only based from my experience alone.

http://www.nrmp.org/pressrelease2009.pdf

According to this (it does not breakdown stats by specialty, so I have no idea where VERY COMPETITIVE IM programs fall):
(1) 82 percent of these students (US Seniors) matched to one of their top three choices
(2) 81 percent of these individuals (all applicants) matched to one of their top three program

According to the pie chart: MOST Applicant (53.2% of ALL applicants i.e. matched and unmatched) actually match to their TOP choice. As for MATCHED US Seniors, over 56% match to their TOP CHOICE.

 

[ResidentMD]

My dillemmas:

I'm interested in ID and general medicine for international medicine reasons, as well as possibly heme/onc. Regardless, i think i want to stay in academics in one way or the other. Here's what my list looks like.

I know my top 2 (Emory and Duke) but am unsure which should be first. Is the reputation of Duke so much better that I would be making a mistake by listing emory #1?

#3-10 on my list, in no particular order:
Northwestern
Pitt
Michigan
Wash U St Louis
Yale
Cornell
Mt Sinai
Brown

Any thoughts on how I should rank those? Geography doesnt matter that much except that i am looking for a diverse patient population.

In spite of all the recent flak Yale has received (ROTFL to FTs comment), if I were you, and wanted what you want, Yale seems like a good #2 or #3 for you. As FT said, I too would put Duke on 1, but put Yale over Emory and others SIMPLY BECAUSE 1. you want the international medicine thing ,and Yale has it well in place. I believe even Pitt does - but how much ID you would see at Pitt is query. I am sure you will probably see a lot more sicker patients at NHH and Grady. But I think Yale is just a saner program than Emory from what I make out of it.

I dont know enough about the NY programs to comment, except that as mentioned above, I refuse to believe they are B/B+.

 

[TopsyTurvey]

This is helpful -- thanks!

Any ideas on where Brown, U. of Rochester, and U. of Minnesota might score in this system?

Thanks!

Maybe this will help with some comparisons. I applied broadly for my couples match. A PD at a top IM program (*East Coast*) looked over the list. Usual disclaimers about 'opinion' and 'right match for you' apply.

UCLA - A
USC - B-
UCSF - A+
Stanford - A
UC-Irvine B-
UCSD - B+

U Colorado - A-

Yale Categorical - A-

U Miami - B

Emory - A-

U Iowa - A-

U Illinois Chicago - C
U Chicago - A-/B+
Northwestern - A-

Michigan - A

Mayo Clinic - A

WashU - A

Duke - A

UNC - B+

Wake - B

NYU - B-
Cornell - B+
Mt Sinai - A-/B+
Columbia - A
Albert Einstein Montefiore - C

Cleveland Clinic - C
Case Western - B+

TJ - B/B+
Penn - A
Pitt - A-

Vandy - A

Baylor - B+
UT-Houston - B

U of Washington - A

 

[pith82]

Wow, so I had to scroll down the 7 present pages of this thread and although I did see a few names of the places I interviewed at, they were not ranked. And, as I have been out of med school for a year and don't really have any of the back up guidance afforded to current students, I would appreciate ANY help in ranking my programs. They are not the super-prestigious ones that have been mentioned so many times on sdn, I'm warning you.

My preferences: would appreciate warm climates but can do without. Am thinking of going into ID but may change my mind and end up in anything else, including GI but not Cards. Would like strong clinical training with some exposure to research and basically a great place to work at also.

In no particular order:

Drexel
Washington Hospital Center
U of Louisville
Medical College of Georgia
Methodist - Houston
Loma Linda U
Albert Einstein - Philly
LSU Shreveport
St. Marys - Long Beach
Legacy Emanuel - Oregan
SW Austin
Allegheny - Pittsburgh
Winthrop U

Thanks

 

[gold&black2005]

From what I know of the programs on your list, I know ID is incredibly strong at WHC...Drexel is a solid program in Philly...and Louisville is probably the cream of the crop. Have heard decent things about MCG from word of mouth, but ID is unlikely to be stronger in Augusta versus DC/Philly. Houston-Methodist certainly has a strong reputation, but I've heard little about this place other than it's a Cornell affiliate now...?

reputation wise:

Louisville > Drexel >/= WHC > Methodist = MCG > the rest.

 

[gold&black2005]

Although Emory does have the CDC, in terms of substantive global health curricula/really innovative frameworks for international development, the cream of your programs are as follows:

Duke (very, very substantive global health commitment by the medical center)
Yale (new int'l health/disparities track coming online this year)
Pitt (surprisingly strong here. that track is pretty ridiculous)
Brown (Fogarty center here, TONS of ID, draws many people)
Emory (no actual track, but the CDC = swag)
Michigan (medical school's GH center is renowned)

NW, Wash U, Cornell and Sinai are all fairly weak on global, athough Sinai's been attempting to make moves there of late, and Cornell as a medical school has great global health (which unfortunately hasn't translated to a strong GH curriculum as well as Duke, Yale, Pitt)

In spite of all the recent flak Yale has received (ROTFL to FTs comment), if I were you, and wanted what you want, Yale seems like a good #2 or #3 for you. As FT said, I too would put Duke on 1, but put Yale over Emory and others SIMPLY BECAUSE 1. you want the international medicine thing ,and Yale has it well in place. I believe even Pitt does - but how much ID you would see at Pitt is query. I am sure you will probably see a lot more sicker patients at NHH and Grady. But I think Yale is just a saner program than Emory from what I make out of it.

I dont know enough about the NY programs to comment, except that as mentioned above, I refuse to believe they are B/B+.

 

[StudentDocIM]

This is helpful -- thanks!

Any ideas on where Brown, U. of Rochester, and U. of Minnesota might score in this system?

Thanks!

Sorry -- I posted the complete thing. It would be speculation for me to fill in the gaps as my advisor/PD would. Perhaps someone else who has encyclopaedic knowledge of the IM residencies will chime in.

I can tell you that my dean of students looked over the list too and suggested that I consider adding U of Rochester: "cold, but quality."

 

[unimaginative]

Brown (Fogarty center here, TONS of ID, draws many people)

Brown will have an international health track coming online soon. Also they have funding to continue to pay you your salary while working internationally. Many others will pay your expenses but cannot pay your regular salary.

 

[zxcvbnm84]

...

 

[berkshire]

UCLA

what's the consensus around here about UCLA? i don't see them discussed on the forums nearly as much as other programs from the same tier.

 

[GMed]

I was also hoping to get some help with my ROL. I want to do cardiology and location does not matter too much to me:

Umass
BU
Tufts
Georgetown
Washington University at St Louis
Upitt
Vanderbilt
UAB
UVA
UNC
Mayo - Rochester
Univ of Rochester
Dartmouth
Mount Sinai
Cornell Univ
University of Michigan
Yale
Brown Univ
Univ of Maryland
Univ of Chicago
Northwestern
Univ of Illinois at Chicago
Cleveland CLinic
Case Western (Univ Hospital)

 

[Frugal Traveler]

what's the consensus around here about UCLA? i don't see them discussed on the forums nearly as much as other programs from the same tier.

It is a unique place with many complicated patients. It also has several hospitals where you have a variety of other experiences. The program has an unique feature in the PGY2 and PGY3 years during which you are "2 on, 2 off." Basically you are doing a variety of clinics and consults for two months, then 2 on for the wards from what I understand.

Ronald Reagan is a great medical center. You'll be well-trained there.

Not many people on here probably from UCLA because they are either working or outside enjoying LA. Culture seems to be quintessential California, which you either liked or not.

If you're liked it, then rank it high.