Official 2011-2012 IM "How To Rank" Thread

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Mayo Clinic Rochester, MN
UCLA in LA, CA
UAB in B'ham, AL
Wake Forest in Winston, Salem, NC
Carolinas Medical Center in Charlotte, NC
USF in Tampa, FL
UF in Gainesville, FL
Georgetown in DC
Mayo Clinic Jacksonville, FL
UT in Chattanooga, TN
Santa Barbara Cottage Hospital in SB, CA
USA in Mobile, AL
UM in Jackson, MS

I actually don't see anything wrong with the way you have them listed. Carolinas should probably go down a bit and I would put UF above USF but that's kind of splitting hairs. The first 3 on your list are in a different league than the rest though.
 
Well I guess its time I ask about my list. I'm asking because I personally have a very tough time separating many of these programs out from another. I really liked the PDs at Dart, Bayview, Rochester and Tulane. Aside from that for me its hard to get much out of the interview day.

Im interested in GI but overall I want the best training possible. So based primarily on academic rep and a supportive environment which how would your rank these, location ignored.


Hopkins bayview
Dartmouth
Alabama
Case western
Maryland
Jefferson
Rochester
Tulane
Mountifere
Temple
Cleavland Clinic
Wake forest
 
Interested in Cards...

Hopkins
Vandy
Michigan
UChicago
UTSW
Mt. Sinai, NYC
Cedars Sinai, LA
UCSD
U of Washington
UVA
UNC Chapel Hill

I must say, I haven't found what I consider to be a "perfect" fit...yet.

Taking a guess. Academic Standpoint for Cards:

Hopkins
UWash >= UTSW = Vandy = Michigan >= UChicago
Mt. Sinai
UCSD = UVa = UNC

I dunno who or what Cedars Sinai is.
 
Taking a guess. Academic Standpoint for Cards:

Hopkins
UWash >= UTSW = Vandy = Michigan >= UChicago
Mt. Sinai
UCSD = UVa = UNC

I dunno who or what Cedars Sinai is.
Cedars-Sinai is a highly regarded cards center. They performed the most OHTs in the nation last year, and are #13 on USNWR cards rankings, for whatever that's worth.
 
Hi all,

I have a big dilemma in this upcoming match. I am applying for IM in both ACGME and AOA. I want to stay in the West Coast. My board scores are average. I have great letters of Rec. So far I only have 2 interviews from ACGME programs and about 7 AOA programs (some of which are in Chicago and Florida ). Out of all the AOA programs I have 2 favorite programs which we have mutual attraction.

My question is that should I just rank those 2 AOA programs for the DO match and then proceed to the MD match with those 2 ACGME programs? My #1 goal is to stay in the West Coast and these 4 programs have that element. It feels like a big risk for not ranking the other 5 AOA programs at all. I do not want to have to scramble, but at the same time I do not want to live away from the West Coast for 3 years at the minimum.

Any help is appreciated 🙂
 
so what do ppl think of the bay area kaiser programs? how would you rank them? and in other news, happy holidays to all you sdn-ers out there!
 
Hi all,

I have a big dilemma in this upcoming match. I am applying for IM in both ACGME and AOA. I want to stay in the West Coast. My board scores are average. I have great letters of Rec. So far I only have 2 interviews from ACGME programs and about 7 AOA programs (some of which are in Chicago and Florida ). Out of all the AOA programs I have 2 favorite programs which we have mutual attraction.

My question is that should I just rank those 2 AOA programs for the DO match and then proceed to the MD match with those 2 ACGME programs? My #1 goal is to stay in the West Coast and these 4 programs have that element. It feels like a big risk for not ranking the other 5 AOA programs at all. I do not want to have to scramble, but at the same time I do not want to live away from the West Coast for 3 years at the minimum.

Any help is appreciated 🙂

I think the bolded is a mistake (although reasonable people can disagree on this point). Your #1 goal should be to match, end of discussion, and you need to maximize your chances of that. I'm not trying to be a buzzkill here but if you don't match this year (no matter which Match strategy you employ), next year will be even worse. And if you wind up in the SOAP/scramble this year you can more or less guarantee that you won't be in a place you really want to be.

So my advice, FWIW, is to rank all the DO programs you can stand to go to and then, if you don't match DO, enter NRMP.

You can always get back to the West coast for fellowship or an attending job, residency is just 3 years.
 
Taking a guess. Academic Standpoint for Cards:

Hopkins
UWash >= UTSW = Vandy = Michigan >= UChicago
Mt. Sinai
UCSD = UVa = UNC

I dunno who or what Cedars Sinai is.


How do you figure UW is >= Michigan for cards? For what it's worth (which may be nothing), USNews ranks Michigan #12 for Cardiology and Heart Surgery whereas Univ. of Washington is not ranked (but is listed as "high performing"). The reason for the unranked status of UW appears to be that USNews rated it as having the "Lowest" subset number of discharges (only 1,800 or so Medicare cards admissions in 2007, 2008, and 2009). The real question is, how does one evaluate the quality of a cards program?

And, a distinct, and perhaps more pertinent question to Ellie321's query as a medicine resident to-be, is which IM program will prepare you best for a cards fellowship? An institution that has a great residency program which matches well into cards fellowships doesn't always also have a great cards fellowship program in-house, and vice versa. A good example of this might be Cleveland Clinic, where their cards fellowship is extremely strong, but their IM residency program is not as strong (and they don't take very many of their own into fellowship.)

Looking at UW's cards match over the last few years, (I'm looking at the printed program guide, which they sent to all the applicants they interviewed, but there is also some published data here), in 2010-2011 they only matched 3 into cards (to UW, UTSW, and Wake Forest), and in 2009-2010 matched 4 into cards (at Duke, Mt. Sinai, UC Davis, and UW) whereas the Michigan IM program seems to produce far more cards fellows - those stats list 63 matching into cards over 6 years (2003-2009), so Michigan IM matches on average 10 into cards per year and UW only matches about 3 per year.

Am I thinking about this the right way?
 
Am I thinking about this the right way?

Not really, but you're not the only one. Everyone does it because it's the only data available. But it's pretty useless data.

Here's the problem with using this kind of data to determine who does "better" in fellowship matches. You only know the numerator, not the denominator, which makes the raw number virtually meaningless. Did UW have 14 cards applicants and only match 4? Or did they have 4 applicants and they all matched? Did UM have 15 applicants and only match 10? Or did they have 10 applicants who all matched? For all you (or anyone else outside of the UM and UW program heirarchies) know, UW has a 100% cards match rate, while UM has a 50-75% (or vice versa). And you likely never will know.

I think focusing on where people matched is a good idea but also not flawless, for similar reasons. I stayed put for fellowship for a complex mixture of reasons (research that I had already started, location, mentorship that I had identified, family issues, etc). But I got interviews at a lot of other "better" places. So does the fact that I matched internally mean anything? Not really. Likewise with other match lists.

So in the end, when you're trying to compare two huge programs like UM and UW (or any other upper tier programs with 40-75 residents a year) there's no flawless statistic to use and frankly you'll be kidding yourself if you say that you're going to be a better cardiologist coming from one program vs. another.
 
Just wanted to throw out that UTSW has matched 72 residents into cards since 2006 and our match rate is at least 90% if not higher what I've heard. another thing to think about is if your card/ccu rotations are fellow driven. if thats the case, your learning opportunity may not be as active but as stated, from the major top medicine programs you get the necessary exposure/education/research opportunities to where there aren't any major differences that i would gather.
 
Well I guess its time I ask about my list. I'm asking because I personally have a very tough time separating many of these programs out from another. I really liked the PDs at Dart, Bayview, Rochester and Tulane. Aside from that for me its hard to get much out of the interview day.

Im interested in GI but overall I want the best training possible. So based primarily on academic rep and a supportive environment which how would your rank these, location ignored.


Hopkins bayview
Dartmouth
Alabama
Case western
Maryland
Jefferson
Rochester
Tulane
Mountifere
Temple
Cleavland Clinic
Wake forest

bump
 
Well I guess its time I ask about my list. I'm asking because I personally have a very tough time separating many of these programs out from another. I really liked the PDs at Dart, Bayview, Rochester and Tulane. Aside from that for me its hard to get much out of the interview day.

Im interested in GI but overall I want the best training possible. So based primarily on academic rep and a supportive environment which how would your rank these, location ignored.


Hopkins bayview
Dartmouth
Alabama
Case western
Maryland
Jefferson
Rochester
Tulane
Mountifere
Temple
Cleavland Clinic
Wake forest

As someone who did not interview at any of these programs, I would rank them Case western = alabama (i'm asusming UAB) > bayview = tulane = maryland > dartmouth = rochester > the rest
 
Well I guess its time I ask about my list. I'm asking because I personally have a very tough time separating many of these programs out from another. I really liked the PDs at Dart, Bayview, Rochester and Tulane. Aside from that for me its hard to get much out of the interview day.

Im interested in GI but overall I want the best training possible. So based primarily on academic rep and a supportive environment which how would your rank these, location ignored.


Hopkins bayview
Dartmouth
Alabama
Case western
Maryland
Jefferson
Rochester
Tulane
Mountifere
Temple
Cleavland Clinic
Wake forest

This is a nice solid middle tier list. I know we spend a lot of time mentally masturbating about the tippy-top programs but these are really nice. I guess If I were putting together a list it would look like this . . .

UAB = Maryland
Dartmouth = Wake = Bayview
CCF = Roch = Case
Temple = Tulane = Monti = TJ
 
Case is super impressive. I am sure if Dartmouth and Case had a NY, Boston, Cali, etc feel they would be right up there. IMO: UAB and Case are my 2 favorites.
 
hi DVN ..hope things are going great with you in your season. Best wishes for holidays too (to you and all other friends)
 
This is a nice solid middle tier list. I know we spend a lot of time mentally masturbating about the tippy-top programs but these are really nice. I guess If I were putting together a list it would look like this . . .

UAB = Maryland
Dartmouth = Wake = Bayview
CCF = Roch = Case
Temple = Tulane = Monti = TJ

Thanks man. I had a pretty bizarre app in some regards so I will take it.


I would push case to put it with dartmouth

My impression is Case is a pretty strong program. I think stronger then wake...
 
One man's opinion 😉

This is why YOU get to make your rank list

lol for sure, and thanks again. Its very hard for me to judge these programs. Several of them came across as very very similar.
 
I am impressed that my use of one simple mathematical symbol sparked so much controversy. :laugh:

Look, everything in this thread is an opinion. Take it with salt, lots of salt.
 
As someone who did not interview at any of these programs, I would rank them Case western = alabama (i'm asusming UAB) > bayview = tulane = maryland > dartmouth = rochester > the rest

so montefiore and TJ is not as good as maryland??
and how does Brown and Yale PC compare to these??

Thank you! 🙂
 
I am impressed that my use of one simple mathematical symbol sparked so much controversy. :laugh:

Look, everything in this thread is an opinion. Take it with salt, lots of salt.

Either way, you are the number 1 cause of SDN HTN!
 
hi DVN ..hope things are going great with you in your season. Best wishes for holidays too (to you and all other friends)

To you as well! Interview season has been a bit draining, Plus I have finally had a little time off to study for step 2, which is one week lol. Both UAB and Mayo require step 2 so I am trying to squeeze it in.
 
good luck with that .. the only possible scenario of you not doing well on step 2 is missing the prometric building
 
good luck with that .. the only possible scenario of you not doing well on step 2 is missing the prometric building

Thats why I scheduled it at the same place I took step 1. I am also bring the same lunch and snacks, +1 extra granola bar.

1 more moth of interviews..I am already exhausted!
 
Do not spare yourself .. you can rest later ... now is the time for you to ACE step 2, and to end up in a great medicine program that will make you a better doctor than what you already are ..

Dum Spiro Spero

While you breathe you hope ..
 
Hi guys, great thread so far. A lot of the comments I have read have been very helpful. Im interested in cards/GI not sure yet. I have no real geographical preference but looking Midwest, East, southeast. How would you rank the following? Granted I have only been on a handful of them.
1. Wash U
2. Mich
3. NU
4. Cornell
5. Mayo
6. UVA
7. MSSM
8.NYU
9. Dartmouth
10 Monte
11. Jeff
12. G town
Thinking about canceling a few: CCF, UNC, Roch, Brown

Any thoughts?
 
I also interviewed at many of those places, kunfu. And not that my opinion means anything, but my mentor who trained at top tier places in the midwest told me, and after visiting/meeting the residents, I'd agree:
Case>>CCF for residency (fellowship maybe a diff story), so if we're splitting hairs I might put Case with Dartmouth and Wake...

FWIW, I won't be ranking CCF-- I don't know what your experience was like, but I got a weird vibe from the few residents I met, and it really seemed like people only chose the place because it would probably help them land a decent fellowship
 
I too would have to agree...I was very impressed w Case and will definitely end up ranking it highly - just great experience w the PD, residents, overall feel etc, while I did not like the feel at CCF at all - I'm sure it's a great place for someone, but that won't be me for residency - I think it will end up the only program I interviewed at that will not be ranked at all
 
I also interviewed at many of those places, kunfu. And not that my opinion means anything, but my mentor who trained at top tier places in the midwest told me, and after visiting/meeting the residents, I'd agree:
Case>>CCF for residency (fellowship maybe a diff story), so if we're splitting hairs I might put Case with Dartmouth and Wake...

FWIW, I won't be ranking CCF-- I don't know what your experience was like, but I got a weird vibe from the few residents I met, and it really seemed like people only chose the place because it would probably help them land a decent fellowship

I too would have to agree...I was very impressed w Case and will definitely end up ranking it highly - just great experience w the PD, residents, overall feel etc, while I did not like the feel at CCF at all - I'm sure it's a great place for someone, but that won't be me for residency - I think it will end up the only program I interviewed at that will not be ranked at all

Thanks guys, I have been hearing this a lot. Have not been to CCF yet so will see.
 
Hey guys, I know we are splitting hairs with this one but does anyone have any insight into the major pros and cons of Hopkins-Osler vs UPenn?
 
CCF program director is phenomenal. he is such a good person, and a resident's advocate. Not lots of programs offer such good leadership.

CCF is a great place. You should definitely check it out.
 
hey all,

know it's not feb yet, but i thought it would be worthwhile to seek out the advice of SDN ppl. factors important to me in my rank list: 1) location is huge-really want to live in a big, vibrant city. 2) fellowship matches in H/O, GI, and cards (i'm basically undecided...) 3) i'm all about working hard but would not mind a place with a good work/life balance if possible 4) overall reputation

narrowed down to: pitt, nyu, usc, baylor (houston), uic, rush, emory, miami

Based on what you said:

1. NYU
2. Pitt
3. Emory
4. Baylor
5. UIC=Rush=USC.
I'm not quite sure where Miami falls.

I have similar interests as you, and my own rank list would have went:

1. Pitt (Didn't get an interview here)
2. NYU (No invite)
3. Rush
4. UIC
5. Baylor
6. Emory
 
Hi guys, great thread so far. A lot of the comments I have read have been very helpful. Im interested in cards/GI not sure yet. I have no real geographical preference but looking Midwest, East, southeast. How would you rank the following? Granted I have only been on a handful of them.
1. Wash U
2. Mich
3. NU
4. Cornell
5. Mayo
6. UVA
7. MSSM
8.NYU
9. Dartmouth
10 Monte
11. Jeff
12. G town
Thinking about canceling a few: CCF, UNC, Roch, Brown

Any thoughts?

bumpity bump bump

Thanks
 
Penn is in my opinion is more competitive and more sought after than Hopkins-Osler. I know there's this Hopkins is the best at everything attitude, but if you look at the applicants that interview there and the ppl they match, it's really light years away from the the ppl that match at other top programs like BWH, UCSF, MGH, Penn, UW, and Columbia. Hopkins may have the usnews and world report rankings, but those rankings don't mean anything for residency. from my medical school, you didn't need to honor medicine to match at jhu, but to get an interview at Penn you needed to be AOA.
 
Penn is in my opinion is more competitive and more sought after than Hopkins-Osler. I know there's this Hopkins is the best at everything attitude, but if you look at the applicants that interview there and the ppl they match, it's really light years away from the the ppl that match at other top programs like BWH, UCSF, MGH, Penn, UW, and Columbia. Hopkins may have the usnews and world report rankings, but those rankings don't mean anything for residency. from my medical school, you didn't need to honor medicine to match at jhu, but to get an interview at Penn you needed to be AOA.

I go to an mid-tier state school, not AOA. Rejected from JHU-Osler and got an interview at Penn. Not an MD/PhD but have some great research. Really loved Penn and definitely felt out of my league in terms of what schools applicants were coming from during my interview day, but who knows if that means anything
 
Yeah, I gotta say out of all these so called elite schools Penn definitely gave me the best vibe. I've stopped compiling Excel-worthy information a long time ago and am just basically going by how much the residents banter with each other and how pretty the fruit spreads are. Also <3 Cornell.
 
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