Official 2018 Rank Order Lists

[DrSatan]

Hello everyone!

It's been a long interview season. Hopefully most of you are done or at the finish line. As you probably know, rank lists entry begins TODAY. Rank lists are due in 38 days (February 21st @ 9pm EST). SOAP is in 57 days. And Match day is in 61 days (March 16th)!!!

Please use this thread for advice on your rank order list (ROL). Provide your residencies of interest, what's important to you, +/- pros/cons of each. I will NOT be accepting anonymous reviews as it was deemed potentially manipulative in previous threads.

Best of luck to everyone!!

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[tellme_areyoufree]

I'll start. I have things sorted into tiers (a top, middle, bottom) but ranking within those tiers feels challenging. I'd love opinions on that. (I kind of wrote a novel here, I'm sorry, it was very helpful just to write out my thoughts... I have a "tl;dr" at the end).

Things that are pro for me: I like a strong PD with a vision, someone I could look up to as a mentor. I like programs that value psychotherapy highly and will train me well in that regard. I like programs that provide me with good opportunities for access to an underserved or difficult population. Working in/at a VA is not a negative (my dad is a vietnam vet struggling with PTSD, I feel attracted to getting at least some experience working with that population), but the amount could make it a positive or negative. A few programs had "advocacy" rotations, and I found that to feel like a pro. Relative "prestige" is a small (very small) pro for me. I am very interested in CAP, pros to be had in relation to that ... but also kind of interested in addiction. That remains to be decided.

Things that are con for me: I'm pretty easy going so I find it challenging to look for/at cons. Work/life balance looked harder than it needed to be at a couple programs, that bumped some down. Terrible facilities bumped at least one program down. Being too large might be a small con. Being in a place with fewer opportunities for my husband is a con.

Of note - my husband is currently applying to law school (because this wasn't stressful enough, apparently). He is in at 4 of the top 25, and so he also has some significant say in this ... it's a negotiation... (I assume "happy wife, happy life" extends to husbands as well).

All of that said ... here's what I'm working with.

Programs in my top tier (ie liked the most) not in ranked order (because I haven't sorted that out) -

Northwestern - fantastic amazing PD, loved the residents, love Chicago, great opportunities in CAP. Light association with a VA (not too much, maybe too little? But I suppose that's what electives are for). Had the sense I'd work a little harder at this program (which is ok). Enjoyed interviews with faculty, had some interesting conversations.
Boston VA / Harvard South Shore - loved the PD, seemed very invested in residents succeeding as leaders. Lots of VA - slight negative for being so much. Love the Boston area. Liked the residents, everybody seemed cool. Liked the faculty I spoke with.
Brown - another fantastic PD, lots of research opportunities, definitely very strong CAP opportunities. Providence would mean a substantial commute to Boston for my husband, but he'd survive... and I found Providence quite charming. Great faculty.

Middle tier (I liked these and think I'd be happy with them) not in ranked order - this is the section I think I need the most help sorting out -

UIC - large program was kind of a con. Again love Chicago. Great reputation and undeniably great training. I liked the residents I met, and everyone seemed cool. Didn't feel "excited" walking away from all but 1 of the faculty interviews, maybe because it was late in the season.
Rush - I loved the faculty and had really engaging convos with each person I interviewed with ... but I didn't feel a connection to the residents, which felt disappointing. I loved the beautiful facilities. I liked that they were doing some cool telepsych stuff focused on veterans.
Loyola - I liked the faculty and residents a lot. But damn, it's out in the suburbs. And so VA-heavy. Some days I wanted to move this up a tier and some I wanted to move it down a tier. I still don't know how I feel about it. I think I'd be happy there, but I'm not sure it's the best I can do in terms of finding the right fit.
Henry Ford Detroit/Wayne State - I absolutely loved the PD, I liked the residents, I felt good about the program, but I got very bad vibes from a couple interviews, including one telling me that she didn't think I would rank their program highly. The two bad interviews sort of torpedoed my day, and combined with Detroit not being high on my list of "places to live" definitely kept this in my middle tier for ranking.

Lower tier (I have reservations about these, but will rank them because ultimately I can be happy).

SLU - I liked the PD a lot and had great interviewers, but multiple things gave me pause. One was the facilities, another was the workload (doubling beds but not increasing residents made me concerned), I really wasn't sure how to feel about the Chair at the department (seemed somewhat... polarizing). I wanted to like this program a lot, I really did.... but I think I just don't. Still, there's enough good that I will still rank it - which means I'll ultimately be happy if I match there.
Indiana - This is a great program that doesn't deserve to be this low on my list, but it is. Beautiful facilities, great residents, great faculty, an excellent academic center ... in Indiana. Sadly the opportunities for my husband are significantly less than elsewhere, and plus ... it's Indiana. I know Indianapolis is not like the rest of Indiana, but still... it's Indiana, and my husband and I do think (as two men) about the culture in a place, and ultimately that contributes to it being way low on my list. Again, this is a great program... it's just not the best fit for me. I'll be happy if I match there because it's a great program, but it feels right to try to match elsewhere.
Vanderbilt - Again a great program, but I just got terrible vibes on interview day. Maybe I just talked to the wrong residents, but I just did not gel. I didn't like the fellow applicants either, oddly enough. Maybe I was just being an dingus that day, who knows... but I just walked away feeling wrong, even though I know the place is very right for others.

So recap. tl;dr

Top: Northwestern, HSS, Brown
Middle: UIC, Rush, Loyola, Henry Ford (most confused about the order of these)
Bottom: SLU, Indiana, Vanderbilt

I would love any and all thoughts on my rankles within each of those "tiers." I'm sorry for writing a novel.

 

[buenasuerte]

Main considerations: Child exposure in second year to make up my mind about child. Make me a strong applicant for child - home fellowship, but also solid placement to good programs, including if I try to fast track. Area wise, robust metro area with a good economy for SO (has good job prospects), but also reasonable COL for both residency and settling down.
Other considerations: strong didactics; supportive environment
Programs I am conflicted about (not listed in order):

GWU vs. VCU - trying to get a sense of morale & general sense of reputation/quality of training.

UMass vs. UMaryland - liked UMass, but they only get 1 month of electives in second year and no child. That would be my only child exposure before applying to fellowship. Is that enough? Liked SP of Maryland, but it's not a guaranteed placement. Did not like Worcester (and I tried); commute from Boston would wear me out. Liked Baltimore, but many residents said "I am not staying here forever." Hmm.. why not?

Albert Einstein vs Hofstra - loved both, but of course don't meet my COL consideration; other thoughts?

 

[Psychotic]

I'll start. I have things sorted into tiers (a top, middle, bottom) but ranking within those tiers feels challenging. I'd love opinions on that. (I kind of wrote a novel here, I'm sorry, it was very helpful just to write out my thoughts... I have a "tl;dr" at the end).

Things that are pro for me: I like a strong PD with a vision, someone I could look up to as a mentor. I like programs that value psychotherapy highly and will train me well in that regard. I like programs that provide me with good opportunities for access to an underserved or difficult population. Working in/at a VA is not a negative (my dad is a vietnam vet struggling with PTSD, I feel attracted to getting at least some experience working with that population), but the amount could make it a positive or negative. A few programs had "advocacy" rotations, and I found that to feel like a pro. Relative "prestige" is a small (very small) pro for me. I am very interested in CAP, pros to be had in relation to that ... but also kind of interested in addiction. That remains to be decided.

Things that are con for me: I'm pretty easy going so I find it challenging to look for/at cons. Work/life balance looked harder than it needed to be at a couple programs, that bumped some down. Terrible facilities bumped at least one program down. Being too large might be a small con. Being in a place with fewer opportunities for my husband is a con.

Of note - my husband is currently applying to law school (because this wasn't stressful enough, apparently). He is in at 4 of the top 25, and so he also has some significant say in this ... it's a negotiation... (I assume "happy wife, happy life" extends to husbands as well).

All of that said ... here's what I'm working with.

Programs in my top tier (ie liked the most) not in ranked order (because I haven't sorted that out) -

Northwestern - fantastic amazing PD, loved the residents, love Chicago, great opportunities in CAP. Light association with a VA (not too much, maybe too little? But I suppose that's what electives are for). Had the sense I'd work a little harder at this program (which is ok). Enjoyed interviews with faculty, had some interesting conversations.
Boston VA / Harvard South Shore - loved the PD, seemed very invested in residents succeeding as leaders. Lots of VA - slight negative for being so much. Love the Boston area. Liked the residents, everybody seemed cool. Liked the faculty I spoke with.
Brown - another fantastic PD, lots of research opportunities, definitely very strong CAP opportunities. Providence would mean a substantial commute to Boston for my husband, but he'd survive... and I found Providence quite charming. Great faculty.

Middle tier (I liked these and think I'd be happy with them) not in ranked order -

UIC - large program was kind of a con. Again love Chicago. Great reputation and undeniably great training. I liked the residents I met, and everyone seemed cool. Didn't feel "excited" walking away from all but 1 of the faculty interviews, maybe because it was late in the season.
Rush - I loved the faculty and had really engaging convos with each person I interviewed with ... but I didn't feel a connection to the residents, which felt disappointing. I loved the beautiful facilities. I liked that they were doing some cool telepsych stuff focused on veterans.
Loyola - I liked the faculty and residents a lot. But damn, it's out in the suburbs. And so VA-heavy. Some days I wanted to move this up a tier and some I wanted to move it down a tier. I still don't know how I feel about it. I think I'd be happy there, but I'm not sure it's the best I can do in terms of finding the right fit.
Henry Ford Detroit/Wayne State - I absolutely loved the PD, I liked the residents, I felt good about the program, but I got very bad vibes from a couple interviews, including one telling me that she didn't think I would rank their program highly. The two bad interviews sort of torpedoed my day, and combined with Detroit not being high on my list of "places to live" definitely kept this in my middle tier for ranking.

Lower tier (I have reservations about these, but will rank them because ultimately I can be happy).

SLU - I liked the PD a lot and had great interviewers, but multiple things gave me pause. One was the facilities, another was the workload (doubling beds but not increasing residents made me concerned), I really wasn't sure how to feel about the Chair at the department (seemed somewhat... polarizing). I wanted to like this program a lot, I really did.... but I think I just don't. Still, there's enough good that I will still rank it - which means I'll ultimately be happy if I match there.
Indiana - This is a great program that doesn't deserve to be this low on my list, but it is. Beautiful facilities, great residents, great faculty, an excellent academic center ... in Indiana. Sadly the opportunities for my husband are significantly less than elsewhere, and plus ... it's Indiana. I know Indianapolis is not like the rest of Indiana, but still... it's Indiana, and my husband and I do think (as two men) about the culture in a place, and ultimately that contributes to it being way low on my list. Again, this is a great program... it's just not the best fit for me. I'll be happy if I match there because it's a great program, but it feels right to try to match elsewhere.
Vanderbilt - Again a great program, but I just got terrible vibes on interview day. Maybe I just talked to the wrong residents, but I just did not gel. I didn't like the fellow applicants either, oddly enough. Maybe I was just being an dingus that day, who knows... but I just walked away feeling wrong, even though I know the place is very right for others.

So recap. tl;dr

Top: Northwestern, HSS, Brown
Middle: UIC, Rush, Loyola, Henry Ford
Bottom: SLU, Indiana, Vanderbilt

I would love any and all thoughts on my rankles within each of those "tiers." I'm sorry for writing a novel.

The situation with your husband is puzzling to me. Why wouldn't he wait, another year, to apply to law schools once your residency is determined? Why in the world are you trying to juggle 2 balls when you ultimately have no actual control over the outcome of your residency selection, apart from feeling pretty certain about landing at one of your top 3 (assuming you match, and it looks like you will). if you go by what folks report on Match Day on SDN, it seems like everyone gets their top choice, but out here in the real world, lots of us landed a little lower down...just sayin' don't assume anything.

Also - and this is from my own perspective, only - but it looks like you got a misread on Vanderbilt. Something has to go to the bottom of your list, though, and Vandy is as good as any. Thinking back to my match list, out of 11 or 12 places I ranked, Vandy was somewhere in the middle for me, maybe as high as 5, so not like I thought that highly of it.

 

[tellme_areyoufree]

So, TL;DR of cons for your top tier would be:

NU: potentially too light of VA experience.
HSS: too much VA.
Brown: location for hubby.

Does that put Brown as your favorite if you husband can handle it? I remember you sounded pretty set with NU as your #1; may I ask why the change of heart?

Not a change of heart - I still love Northwestern. Chicago is special to me, I would sacrifice a finger if it would ensure that I could work with Joan Anzia, and I will literally cry if I match there. But I'm also a realist, and have no assumption that Northwestern will rank me highly (so I'm not putting my hopes there anymore than I will at Brown or anywhere else). I figured I shouldn't lead with that proclamation of love, because I do think those 3 are all really close for me for different reasons and want to think I could be swayed to change my mind if a good argument is presented. I guess if I'm forced to pick and if I am being 100% honest, Northwestern edges out the other two just slightly, but I'd rather be open to being convinced to change my mind. Fair answer?

The situation with your husband is puzzling to me. Why wouldn't he wait, another year, to apply to law schools once your residency is determined? Why in the world are you trying to juggle 2 balls when you ultimately have no actual control over the outcome of your residency selection, apart from feeling pretty certain about landing at one of your top 3 (assuming you match, and it looks like you will). if you go by what folks report on Match Day on SDN, it seems like everyone gets their top choice, but out here in the real world, lots of us landed a little lower down...just sayin' don't assume anything.

Also - and this is from my own perspective, only - but it looks like you got a misread on Vanderbilt. Something has to go to the bottom of your list, though, and Vandy is as good as any. Thinking back to my match list, out of 11 or 12 places I ranked, Vandy was somewhere in the middle for me, maybe as high as 5, so not like I thought that highly of it.

Oh trust me, I'd rather have one less ball to juggle. But he made major career and life sacrifices so I could go to med school, I think that considering his preferences for law school (and respecting his desire to do it now) represents a minor compromise in the grand scheme. He will hold offers in most cities I'm ranking (already in Chicago and Boston, which accounts for basically the top half of my list) and will ultimately accept an offer in the city where I match. Unless I go too far down my list, then we make some difficult decisions.

Re Vandy - I hear you and don't mean to speak ill. I only have a small amount of info to go on ultimately, and that info said "not for me."

 

[tellme_areyoufree]

Do you mean your husband is in at 4 of his or your top 25 programs? If so, which locations are those & does he have any strong preference? Where is his current #1? When will he hear back from more?

Sorry sorry, I've pick up the law school lingo - he's in at 4 of the top 25 ranked law schools so far, still waiting to hear from others, and he is waiting to make a decision, but his ultimate preference will come to Chicago v Boston. Scholarships and such will play a big role in that decision, so we won't be finalizing those decisions until later this month / early next month.

(Note - law school rankings matter seriously because we're sort of saturated with lawyers now, so his chances at a good career arc are deeply impacted by which school he attends... sorry for not clarifying that originally... they have their own lingo "T25, T14" etc for which schools are top this or top that).

Anyway, suffice it to say that his input is part of the negotiation... but not something I "have" in front of me, so to speak... he could hear back from schools as late as may, but if he has not heard from them by Feb 21 then we will make ranking decisions based on the info we have available at that time.

 

[Psychotic]

Oh trust me, I'd rather have one less ball to juggle. But he made major career and life sacrifices so I could go to med school, I think that considering his preferences for law school (and respecting his desire to do it now) represents a minor compromise in the grand scheme. He will hold offers in most cities I'm ranking (already in Chicago and Boston, which accounts for basically the top half of my list) and will ultimately accept an offer in the city where I match. Unless I go too far down my list, then we make some difficult decisions.

What is another year to him at this point? You will be where you land for 4 years, and he will be in law school for 3 years. Your intern year will be tough, as will his first year of law school. I would stagger the matriculation years, but maybe that's just me.

Also, don't underestimate the difficulty of that daily Providence to Boston commute for your husband. Since you seem to be leaning towards Chicago based residencies, I would suggest switching UIC for Brown on your match list. Assume you will land at one of your top 3, and rank them accordingly. If you fall to #4 Brown, then so be it.

I hope it all works out for you and hubby. Good luck.

 

[SmallBird]

What is another year to him at this point? You will be where you land for 4 years, and he will be in law school for 3 years. Your intern year will be tough, as will his first year of law school. I would stagger the matriculation years, but maybe that's just me.

Also, don't underestimate the difficulty of that daily Providence to Boston commute for your husband. Since you seem to be leaning towards Chicago based residencies, I would suggest switching UIC for Brown on your match list. Assume you will land at one of your top 3, and rank them accordingly. If you fall to #4 Brown, then so be it.

I hope it all works out for you and hubby. Good luck.

The providence-Boston commute is really not bad at all. $8 each way on commuter rail. There are apartment buildings right next to the train station in providence. Not for everybody but my husband commutes in to Boston and it is no problem for us living in Providence.

 

[When is graduation again?]

I've been having a bit of an internal struggle, so I'll be glad for any advice given. I go back and forth between all of the programs Im listing. My goal is to practice community psychiatry focusing on ppl with SPMI and, potentially, homeless populations. However, I also have some ideas for app development and entrepreneurial-service ideas I want to kick start. Theoretically, I could start some of these ideas after residency, but Id hate to get beat to the punch because that could be game over. In terms of other considerations, I have a partner in the tech field so bigger cities are a plus and I prefer nonacademic environments, though if it fulfills my goals I'll get over it.

The top 3-4 are tricky for me and I could use some help. I'm thinking this is close to my final rank order, but would appreciate suggestions.
-UTSW. I love this program. The PD was great, all the residents I met were happy, the curriculum has a ton of flexibility and 3 months of psychiatry in community settings, great COL ,and my partner can get a job easily, my main concern would be call schedule in the first 2 years and whether that would inhibit me from enacting ideas. Year 3 is when the flexibility should kick in.
-Cambridge Health Alliance: I loved their mission, they have a great PD, residents seemed diverse and great, definition of a community focus, call is spaced out rather than frontloaded. Minuses are COL and cold.
-Carolinas Medical Center: This is more of a location, lifestyle, and has potential pick. It's close to family and is new enough that it is education rather than service focused and has potential to grow. Also my partner has family in the area and we both really like Charlotte. Downsides are it's new so some unknowns, no real community focus or rotations in the community, and it is a really small program.
-Yale: This program has my favorite curriculum, the option to be community oriented, and time to create my own projects. It also has one of the most diverse group of residents I met on the trail. Downsides: I got the vibe that the program cares more about feats that you perform that they can attach there name to rather than residents as people, Im unsure if that's true so feel free to correct me. And the bigger downside is difficulty for my partner to find a job. Commuting to NY is possible, but it would suck.

Rest of list in orderish:
-USC Palmetto
-Columbia
-UNC
-ECU
-Vandy

 

[Mighty Muse]

While my ROL is certified, I'm still not 100% satisfied with my current line-up and would love some objective opinions on my #1 vs. #2 (aka heart vs. head). I'm looking for solid CAP fellowship placement (likely NYC-focused), strong psychodynamic therapy, college mental health, community psychiatry, medical student/resident education opportunities to name a few.

Cambridge Health Alliance: saying I loved this program would be an understatement. Wonderful interview day, warm residents, strong psychodynamic therapy integrated into training, sincere mission statement with community psychiatry/integrated care. The downside is location relative to my hometown in NY (I'm very close with my family/want to see my sister's kids grow up).

Zucker Hillside: also had a wonderful experience here; a program I can easily see myself flourishing within; warm residents, solid psychodynamic opportunities if interested, strong medical student education, strong college mental health affiliations, easy path to NYC fellowships, extremely close to my hometown. The downside would be that I feel a closer "pull" to CHA.

 

[Amygdarya]

The providence-Boston commute is really not bad at all. $8 each way on commuter rail. There are apartment buildings right next to the train station in providence. Not for everybody but my husband commutes in to Boston and it is no problem for us living in Providence.

Yeah, Brown aPD told us on the interview day that during her residency at Brown her husband commuted to work in Boston and it worked out just fine for them as well.

 

[FlowRate]

Being too large might be a small con.

I won't belabor the other points that have already been discussed. I honestly don't see a downside to size when it comes to psychiatry programs. There are pretty much zero truly "large" psych residency programs, with the largest generally being ~16 residents/year. Think about how many IM programs have 60+ PGY1 Categorial+Prelim and 30+ Categorical per year. I can only think of benefits to size (coverage issues) and very few negatives (it's not that hard for a PD to get to know 60 residents.)

The top 3-4 are tricky for me and I could use some help. I'm thinking this is close to my final rank order, but would appreciate suggestions.
-UTSW. I love this program. The PD was great, all the residents I met were happy, the curriculum has a ton of flexibility and 3 months of psychiatry in community settings, great COL ,and my partner can get a job easily, my main concern would be call schedule in the first 2 years and whether that would inhibit me from enacting ideas. Year 3 is when the flexibility should kick in.
-Cambridge Health Alliance: I loved their mission, they have a great PD, residents seemed diverse and great, definition of a community focus, call is spaced out rather than frontloaded. Minuses are COL and cold.
-Carolinas Medical Center: This is more of a location, lifestyle, and has potential pick. It's close to family and is new enough that it is education rather than service focused and has potential to grow. Also my partner has family in the area and we both really like Charlotte. Downsides are it's new so some unknowns, no real community focus or rotations in the community, and it is a really small program.
-Yale: This program has my favorite curriculum, the option to be community oriented, and time to create my own projects. It also has one of the most diverse group of residents I met on the trail. Downsides: I got the vibe that the program cares more about feats that you perform that they can attach there name to rather than residents as people, Im unsure if that's true so feel free to correct me. And the bigger downside is difficulty for my partner to find a job. Commuting to NY is possible, but it would suck.

Rest of list in orderish:
-USC Palmetto
-Columbia
-UNC
-ECU
-Vandy

W/R/T app development, UNC might go higher on your list, given the tri-city area is supposedly a hotbed for tech these days. And as far as community/homeless goes, it seemed like Vandy had some opportunities there. Aside from COL and cold, which are significant, CHA otherwise seems perfect for your interests--Boston metro has lots of startup activity, especially in Cambridge and lots of psychotherapy and community focus at CHA, as well. CHA is also potentially the best place in the area to offset COL concerns given their ample opportunities to make extra $$.

 

[Carpe-Noctem]

Hey everyone, quick question. For those of you planning on contacting your number one choice and letting them know, when and how do you plan on doing that? My number one is #1 by a large margin and I know it may not even make a difference but I want to be honest with them about them being my number 1. I don't plan to email other programs. If I don't match at number one, i'll let the algorithm do its thing and be fine with the result.

I was going to email them and state why their residency and location are the best for me and my family. Planning on 4-5 sentences tops, but unique/specific enough to know that their name/location wasn't just copied/pasted there in a generic letter.

Would be curious to hear a PD's perspective on this as well.

Any thoughts?

 

[Psychotic]

Hey everyone, quick question. For those of you planning on contacting your number one choice and letting them know, when and how do you plan on doing that? My number one is #1 by a large margin and I know it may not even make a difference but I want to be honest with them about them being my number 1. I don't plan to email other programs. If I don't match at number one, i'll let the algorithm do its thing and be fine with the result.

I was going to email them and state why their residency and location are the best for me and my family. Planning on 4-5 sentences tops, but unique/specific enough to know that their name/location wasn't just copied/pasted there in a generic letter.

Would be curious to hear a PD's perspective on this as well.

Any thoughts?

If you are really going to send an email, cut it down to 2 sentences. Keep it very short and to the point.

Oh, and the algorithm is going to do its thing no matter what you do. I personally think these love letters are worthless.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Hey everyone, quick question. For those of you planning on contacting your number one choice and letting them know, when and how do you plan on doing that? My number one is #1 by a large margin and I know it may not even make a difference but I want to be honest with them about them being my number 1. I don't plan to email other programs. If I don't match at number one, i'll let the algorithm do its thing and be fine with the result.

I was going to email them and state why their residency and location are the best for me and my family. Planning on 4-5 sentences tops, but unique/specific enough to know that their name/location wasn't just copied/pasted there in a generic letter.

Would be curious to hear a PD's perspective on this as well.

Any thoughts?

Good move.
I wouldn't mind getting such a note, but it probably wouldn't make much difference to us.

 

[psychattending]

Hey everyone, quick question. For those of you planning on contacting your number one choice and letting them know, when and how do you plan on doing that? My number one is #1 by a large margin and I know it may not even make a difference but I want to be honest with them about them being my number 1. I don't plan to email other programs. If I don't match at number one, i'll let the algorithm do its thing and be fine with the result.

I was going to email them and state why their residency and location are the best for me and my family. Planning on 4-5 sentences tops, but unique/specific enough to know that their name/location wasn't just copied/pasted there in a generic letter.

Would be curious to hear a PD's perspective on this as well.

Any thoughts?

5 sentences is fine. I really would not go much further than that. Keep it as short as possible.

 

[Geraltofrivia]

I wrote a brief couple paragraphs about my number 1. Did not get a response from LD, PC, or APD who I sent a more informal letter to based on a suggestion by my attending. Is this poorly prognostic or should I chill and have a beer? Thank you all

 

[PresidentofAnidom]

I have a question about 2nd looks, and I'm hoping a PD can shed some light on this. Are applicants who attend second looks looked upon more favorably than applicants who cannot attend? I understand second looks have the potential to hurt applicants (if they behave unprofessionally, etc) but I wonder if it can also boost applicants on a ROL. Thank you in advance!

 

[FlowRate]

I have a question about 2nd looks, and I'm hoping a PD can shed some light on this. Are applicants who attend second looks looked upon more favorably than applicants who cannot attend? I understand second looks have the potential to hurt applicants (if they behave unprofessionally, etc) but I wonder if it can also boost applicants on a ROL. Thank you in advance!

This has been discussed an infinite number of times on the forum. You don't need a PD to respond, as this should suffice: only arrange a second look if you're actively trying to figure something out about the program (serious concerns about vibe, need to see the city with your SO). Second looks are a PITA for the program.

 

[PresidentofAnidom]

This has been discussed an infinite number of times on the forum. You don't need a PD to respond, as this should suffice: only arrange a second look if you're actively trying to figure something out about the program (serious concerns about vibe, need to see the city with your SO). Second looks are a PITA for the program.

But can attending one boost you on that program's ROL?

 

[PresidentofAnidom]

It sounds like it could, but it's unlikely. It's also not allowed to influence program ROL per NRMP requirements. Only go to it if you feel like you need more information or want a fresh look at it, rather than if you just want to seem interested (especially if you ask to set up a 2nd visit rather than it being a planned event by the program).

Though, I suppose if they invited you to come (rather than you requesting) & you don't do anything to make yourself look bad, it could potentially show interest.

I myself will not be attending nor requesting any 2nd looks.

That's what I thought. I was considering doing a second look at a program where I did an audition just to show interest but I don't want to pay for it if 1) there's nothing new for me learn, 2) it won't significantly impact me on the ROL. I feel like I learned the ins and outs of the program during my time there so I wouldn't gain much. I think doing an audition there plus a LOI would be sufficient for showing interest.

 

[TexasPhysician]

But can attending one boost you on that program's ROL?

I’d say it has a low chance of benefit, low chance of harm, and a high chance of no one there caring.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

But can attending one boost you on that program's ROL?

No.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

That's what I thought. I was considering doing a second look at a program where I did an audition just to show interest but I don't want to pay for it if 1) there's nothing new for me learn, 2) it won't significantly impact me on the ROL. I feel like I learned the ins and outs of the program during my time there so I wouldn't gain much. I think doing an audition there plus a LOI would be sufficient for showing interest.

If you've shown up for your interview, you've shown enough interest.

 

[Carpe-Noctem]

Good move.
I wouldn't mind getting such a note, but it probably wouldn't make much difference to us.

I understand that it may not do anything, but I don't want to wonder what if. If I do decide to send, and assuming hypothetically that it did help, when would be the best timing?

 

[splik]

I understand that it may not do anything, but I don't want to wonder what if. If I do decide to send, and assuming hypothetically that it did help, when would be the best timing?

once you are 100% - send.

 

[roue77sims]

I'm struggling a lot with my rank list and would appreciate help.

Priorities for me are:
Location: Ideally, I'd like to be in a major city in the Northeast as this is the best area for my spouse's line of work (though he's open to anywhere) and I like living there/just spent 8 years somewhere I don't like and am tired of it. I'm also disinclined to live somewhere that is very politically conservative, as I think I'm likely to face discrimination. However, I got very little love from the Northeast in terms of interviews (nothing from Boston or NYC, limited from Philly), so compromises may be necessary.
Research: I'm an MD-PhD and ideally would like to pursue a research career seriously, but I'm struggling with whether location will trump this consideration for me (i.e. ultimately, good location might make me happier than research? and I do really like clinical work as well, so I think I would still enjoy my job without research). I suppose it would be possible to go to a less research-oriented place for residency and try to recover research-wise via fellowship? Obviously, it would have been ideal to have worked these priorities out prior to now, but I think I was overly optimistic in my expectations for interviews and didn't anticipate having to choose. In my comments below I give some subjective descriptors for how strong the programs seem to me in my area of research interest.
Resident happiness: I don't want to go anywhere where residents are unhappy, treated badly, overworked (bad service:educational balance), etc.
Clinical exposure: A few of these places have very large psych hospitals with lots of specialty wards, and I have to imagine that this would allow better exposure to pathology and thus better training in some sense, but I could be totally wrong about that?

With that, here are my top 5, in no particular order, since it has been in flux:
Pittsburgh/WPIC: great for research, not ideal for location (it's a city and hopefully not too conservative, but not ideal for my spouse's work), residents seem happy, but I had a few interactions with residents that were concerning/inappropriate/red-flag-y and that has given me cold feet.
University of Maryland/Sheppard Pratt: good for research, good location (better for spouse's work), residents seem happy though perhaps overworked, which scares me (Less time for research + I'm older than most residents and worry about how their 3 months of q4 call would be for me). ((aside: I interviewed at Hopkins also, but they seemed overworked AND unhappy, so I'm disinclined to rank it highly.))
MUSC: great research, not ideal for location (has some city-feeling, but conservative, far from family, and not ideal for spouse's work), happy residents
UNC Chapel Hill: good research, not ideal for location (relatively liberal, but small town and not ideal for spouse's work), very happy residents. This is the place where I had the strongest positive 'gut feeling.'
Jefferson: limited research/not really an established mentorship pipeline for research careers like at some of these other programs, optimal location for my geographic preferences and spouse's work, happy residents ((aside: Sadly, no interview from Penn despite/?because of? expressing strong interest to PD and PC via email.))

 

[clausewitz2]

I'm struggling a lot with my rank list and would appreciate help.

Priorities for me are:
Location: Ideally, I'd like to be in a major city in the Northeast as this is the best area for my spouse's line of work (though he's open to anywhere) and I like living there/just spent 8 years somewhere I don't like and am tired of it. I'm also disinclined to live somewhere that is very politically conservative, as I think I'm likely to face discrimination. However, I got very little love from the Northeast in terms of interviews (nothing from Boston or NYC, limited from Philly), so compromises may be necessary.
Research: I'm an MD-PhD and ideally would like to pursue a research career seriously, but I'm struggling with whether location will trump this consideration for me (i.e. ultimately, good location might make me happier than research? and I do really like clinical work as well, so I think I would still enjoy my job without research). I suppose it would be possible to go to a less research-oriented place for residency and try to recover research-wise via fellowship? Obviously, it would have been ideal to have worked these priorities out prior to now, but I think I was overly optimistic in my expectations for interviews and didn't anticipate having to choose. In my comments below I give some subjective descriptors for how strong the programs seem to me in my area of research interest.
Resident happiness: I don't want to go anywhere where residents are unhappy, treated badly, overworked (bad service:educational balance), etc.
Clinical exposure: A few of these places have very large psych hospitals with lots of specialty wards, and I have to imagine that this would allow better exposure to pathology and thus better training in some sense, but I could be totally wrong about that?

With that, here are my top 5, in no particular order, since it has been in flux:
Pittsburgh/WPIC: great for research, not ideal for location (it's a city and hopefully not too conservative, but not ideal for my spouse's work), residents seem happy, but I had a few interactions with residents that were concerning/inappropriate/red-flag-y and that has given me cold feet.

As a current MD-PhDer at WPIC, I can address some of your concerns. Pittsburgh itself is definitely a blue bastion and Allegheny County went strongly against His Orangeness. The Yinzer Old Guard is still around, but their last great hurrah was ten years ago and you hardly ever see "keep Pittsburgh ****ty" bumperstickers any more. We certainly do have fantastic clinical exposure and you will find plenty of zebras. I am sorry you had problematic interactions with a few of the residents here when you came to interview; feel free to PM me if you have any interest in discussing them or what concerns they raised for you.

 

[sleepy_psych]

Need some help making my list, looking for general thoughts or suggestions for order
About me: I'm interested in CAP but not 100% on it. Prefer psychotherapy vs. psychopharm. My interest is to be be involved with academic/teaching medicine after residency for a few years. I have two kids and so area and school system count.

In no specific order:
Rochester, SUNY Upstate, UVM, UMass, Maine Med

 

[Psychotic]

Need some help making my list, looking for general thoughts or suggestions for order
About me: I'm interested in CAP but not 100% on it. Prefer psychotherapy vs. psychopharm. My interest is to be be involved with academic/teaching medicine after residency for a few years. I have two kids and so area and school system count.

In no specific order:
Rochester, SUNY Upstate, UVM, UMass, Maine Med

Put the family factors first and don't worry about the rest. From that list, I would put UVM first just based on location.

 

[When is graduation again?]

I'm struggling a lot with my rank list and would appreciate help.

Priorities for me are:
Location: Ideally, I'd like to be in a major city in the Northeast as this is the best area for my spouse's line of work (though he's open to anywhere) and I like living there/just spent 8 years somewhere I don't like and am tired of it. I'm also disinclined to live somewhere that is very politically conservative, as I think I'm likely to face discrimination. However, I got very little love from the Northeast in terms of interviews (nothing from Boston or NYC, limited from Philly), so compromises may be necessary.
Research: I'm an MD-PhD and ideally would like to pursue a research career seriously, but I'm struggling with whether location will trump this consideration for me (i.e. ultimately, good location might make me happier than research? and I do really like clinical work as well, so I think I would still enjoy my job without research). I suppose it would be moving ble to go to a less research-oriented place for residency and try to recover research-wise via fellowship? Obviously, it would have been ideal to have worked these priorities out prior to now, but I think I was overly optimistic in my expectations for interviews and didn't anticipate having to choose. In my comments below I give some subjective descriptors for how strong the programs seem to me in my area of research interest.
Resident happiness: I don't want to go anywhere where residents are unhappy, treated badly, overworked (bad service:educational balance), etc.
Clinical exposure: A few of these places have very large psych hospitals with lots of specialty wards, and I have to imagine that this would allow better exposure to pathology and thus better training in some sense, but I could be totally wrong about that?

With that, here are my top 5, in no particular order, since it has been in flux:
Pittsburgh/WPIC: great for research, not ideal for location (it's a city and hopefully not too conservative, but not ideal for my spouse's work), residents seem happy, but I had a few interactions with residents that were concerning/inappropriate/red-flag-y and that has given me cold feet.
University of Maryland/Sheppard Pratt: good for research, good location (better for spouse's work), residents seem happy though perhaps overworked, which scares me (Less time for research + I'm older than most residents and worry about how their 3 months of q4 call would be for me). ((aside: I interviewed at Hopkins also, but they seemed overworked AND unhappy, so I'm disinclined to rank it highly.))
MUSC: great research, not ideal for location (has some city-feeling, but conservative, far from family, and not ideal for spouse's work), happy residents
UNC Chapel Hill: good research, not ideal for location (relatively liberal, but small town and not ideal for spouse's work), very happy residents. This is the place where I had the strongest positive 'gut feeling.'
Jefferson: limited research/not really an established mentorship pipeline for research careers like at some of these other programs, optimal location for my geographic preferences and spouse's work, happy residents ((aside: Sadly, no interview from Penn despite/?because of? expressing strong interest to PD and PC via email.))

I've lived in Chapel Hill for 6 years before moving a few years ago. I can say that it is a die hard liberal environment to the point that most conservative people are more than a little uncomfortable speaking up. Also it is close enough to Raleigh and Durham that you really don't have to spend any free time in the small town area, if you like slightly larger cities. That said Chapel Hill has amazing restaurants/food and Memorial Hall on UNC campus attracts world caliber music and performance acts. The main thing Chapel Hill is missing is nightclubs.

I also interviewed at UNC and had a very positive gut vibe. Im only rating it lower because I want a change of pace. If not for that, it would easily be top 2.

 

[clausewitz2]

I've lived in Chapel Hill for 6 years before moving a few years ago. I can say that it is a die hard liberal environment to the point that most conservative people are more than a little uncomfortable speaking up. Also it is close enough to Raleigh and Durham that you really don't have to spend any free time in the small town area, if you like slightly larger cities. That said Chapel Hill has amazing restaurants/food and Memorial Hall on UNC campus attracts world caliber music and performance acts. The main thing Chapel Hill is missing is nightclubs.

I also interviewed at UNC and had a very positive gut vibe. Im only rating it lower because I want a change of pace. If not for that, it would easily be top 2.

Did not end up there, but interviewed at UNC and had a very positive experience. Was the next entry on my list after where I did end up if I remember correctly.

 

[molecularmimicry]

Have other applicants been sending out LOIs? If so, have you guys been receiving responses? I'm a bit disheartened because I carefully crafted a detailed and personal LOI to my #1. Sent it out this Monday. Not a peep since. Hoping it's not a sign of disinterest from them.

 

[tellme_areyoufree]

Have other applicants been sending out LOIs? If so, have you guys been receiving responses? I'm a bit disheartened because I carefully crafted a detailed and personal LOI to my #1. Sent it out this Monday. Not a peep since. Hoping it's not a sign of disinterest from them.

I decided not to send a letter. Really hard, but I think it feels better than that would feel. I'm just going to trust in the process. And stress eat. Also going to stress eat.

 

[molecularmimicry]

I decided not to send a letter. Really hard, but I think it feels better than that would feel. I'm just going to trust in the process. And stress eat. Also going to stress eat.

Yeah, on the bright side, I'm at a resort in Cancun right now so at least that's been keeping my mind off things. But then I go back to my home city tomorrow. And I have no rotations to keep me occupied until March lol. It's gonna be a long couple of months.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Yeah, on the bright side, I'm at a resort in Cancun right now so at least that's been keeping my mind off things. But then I go back to my home city tomorrow. And I have no rotations to keep me occupied until March lol. It's gonna be a long couple of months.

NFL playoffs...college basketball...Netflix...

 

[Evidence Based]

Have other applicants been sending out LOIs? If so, have you guys been receiving responses? I'm a bit disheartened because I carefully crafted a detailed and personal LOI to my #1. Sent it out this Monday. Not a peep since. Hoping it's not a sign of disinterest from them.

Yeah I sent one early this week and haven't heard anything, but frankly wasn't expecting to. PDs are finishing up interviews, going to lots of meetings, trying to set their lists, etc. If I was in their shoes I probably wouldn't respond to these for weeks if at all

NFL playoffs...college basketball...Netflix...

But of course also this.

 

[psychiatryhopeful]

Have other applicants been sending out LOIs? If so, have you guys been receiving responses? I'm a bit disheartened because I carefully crafted a detailed and personal LOI to my #1. Sent it out this Monday. Not a peep since. Hoping it's not a sign of disinterest from them.

Not the same thing but I’ve sent several thank you emails that have gone unreplied. I’m sure they are inundated with emails.

 

[DisorderedDoc417]

NFL playoffs...college basketball...Netflix...

Skol!

 

[lovanima]

Hi everyone,
One program that I interviewed at has the status of "withdrawn" on NRMP rank list. Does anyone have similar issue? Should I contact the program coordinator to find out if they're still offering positions this year? Thanks!

 

[Alemo]

I'm pretty conflicted about a few spots in my list. I would really appreciate if folks could weigh in!

My partner and I are not really concerned about location, although we are trying to avoid major metropolitan areas. We'd prefer college towns or medium-sized cities. Professionally I think I'm interested in academic medicine, either geriatrics or C/L. But I haven't ruled out taking a job at some rural state hospital and living out in the stix. My top choices are likely UPMC, Michigan, and Brown.

First, Duke or UNC? I'll probably rank the two together, but I'm unsure about the order. I liked the residents, PD, and the hospital at UNC. I thought they had approachable faculty and the C/L service seemed strong. What I didn't like was the outpatient component in PGY-2, combined with having to manage clinic patients while on inpt services in PGY-3. I didn't care for the PGY-2 schedule of multiple random half day clinics with longitudinal things sprinkled throughout. I don't think I'd like doing different things depending on the day of the week and the time of day.
I really liked Duke's family therapy focus. I thought their rotation schedule was much more straightforward, and although the call is probably worse, I suppose I'd be clinically stronger for what it's worth. I also appreciated the VA exposure. I did feel as if the residents were more heavily worked, more autonomous, and a little quirkier than their UNC peers. Also I am unsure of the general medical environment at Duke (everything just seems really unnecessarily intense) and wonder if that carries over to psychiatry. UNC was definitely warmer and fuzzier than Duke.

After that, I'm trying to decide the order of Wisconsin, Wash U, and MUSC. Obviously the location is pretty variable here, but it doesn't matter to us. I'm inclined to rank MUSC (love the program structure, have lived in Charleston before), Wisconsin (laid back residents and faculty, nice town, but lots of random half day clinics PGY3) and then Wash U (great program structure and liked faculty, but residents seemed like they were all from MO or TX and I wondered why there was a lack of other area representation). Any considerations that others can point out?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I'm pretty conflicted about a few spots in my list. I would really appreciate if folks could weigh in!

My partner and I are not really concerned about location, although we are trying to avoid major metropolitan areas. We'd prefer college towns or medium-sized cities. Professionally I think I'm interested in academic medicine, either geriatrics or C/L. But I haven't ruled out taking a job at some rural state hospital and living out in the stix. My top choices are likely UPMC, Michigan, and Brown.
...
After that, I'm trying to decide the order of Wisconsin, Wash U, and MUSC. Obviously the location is pretty variable here, but it doesn't matter to us. I'm inclined to rank MUSC (love the program structure, have lived in Charleston before), Wisconsin (laid back residents and faculty, nice town, but lots of random half day clinics PGY3) and then Wash U (great program structure and liked faculty, but residents seemed like they were all from MO or TX and I wondered why there was a lack of other area representation). Any considerations that others can point out?

1) love your top 3, given your stated goals.
2) I'd take Madison or Charleston in a heartbeat over St. Louis.

 

[Mighty Muse]

While my ROL is certified, I'm still not 100% satisfied with my current line-up and would love some objective opinions on my #1 vs. #2 (aka heart vs. head). I'm looking for solid CAP fellowship placement (likely NYC-focused), strong psychodynamic therapy, college mental health, community psychiatry, medical student/resident education opportunities to name a few.

Cambridge Health Alliance: saying I loved this program would be an understatement. Wonderful interview day, warm residents, strong psychodynamic therapy integrated into training, sincere mission statement with community psychiatry/integrated care. The downside is location relative to my hometown in NY (I'm very close with my family/want to see my sister's kids grow up).

Zucker Hillside: also had a wonderful experience here; a program I can easily see myself flourishing within; warm residents, solid psychodynamic opportunities if interested, strong medical student education, strong college mental health affiliations, easy path to NYC fellowships, extremely close to my hometown. The downside would be that I feel a closer "pull" to CHA.

My apologies for bumping my own post - would love for any contributions if at all possible!

Additionally, curious as to how others perceive/would rank these other programs: Emory, HSS, Institute of Living, Mayo, Mount Sinai BI, Rutgers RWJ, Vanderbilt.

Thank you so very much for any assistance!

 

[tthhrrooaawwaayy]

Fell in love with two programs in particular. Perfect location and amazing opportunities and specific research in my field. Good gut feelings on interview day where I left enthusiastic about entering this amazing field. Alas, both are definitely reaches for me and I am preparing myself to match lower. Trying to find a good fit lower on my list and was wondering if anyone can provide any insight. These choices I felt were a good fit personality wise and left with general positive feelings.

About me: Interested in public policy and services research so would love to go to a strong research institution. My SO would need a metropolitan area for work.

Rutgers RWJMS: I absolutely loved the people at Rutgers. From the residents to the PD to the APD. APD seemed very eager to support resident research interests. My question is, I do not know much about the program in terms of reputation. I am interested in learning if it's a well regarded program in the NYC area. One that is known for churning out strong residents?


Albert Einstein
vs. Boston University
vs. Maryland/SP
AECOM seems strong clinically but location is less ideal for SO. BU has a more ideal location and I loved the PD. Just don't know how it fits into the Boston Psychiatry landscape. Maryland was an amazing place to visit. I was overjoyed by the the diversity of clinical experiences and everything seemed world renowned. I know I would get world class training there but location is farther from SO and my family. Seems like a workhorse program.

Mt Sinai St Lukes
vs. Mt Sinai Beth Israel - Beth Israel is concerning because of questions about stability of the hospital but I loved my interview day. St Lukes I'm less familiar with its reputation in the area but is in a good area with subdized housing.

Dartmouth
vs. IOL
vs Umass - in less ideal locations for my SO and I. umass and Dartmouth have an impressive amount of research. I really loved talking with the people at IOL but this seems much less research focused.

I have more. But these are my big tie breakers. Any strong thoughts on any of the programs above would be of great help. Particular Rutgers because I cannot find as much about it's reputation on here. Considering ranking Rutgers #3 just based on gut.

 

[24blue8]

Still no sign from the the west coast? For the numerous CA medstudents going into psych I can try to simplify things.

1. The "I don't really care about prestige or brand recognition or funding and endowments but everyone was so smart, humble and inspiring that it just really won me over..." Program.
2. Proximity to hometown or the place you tell people you're from ("I mean it's basically the same...")
3. Proximity to hometown if the 405/5/101/whatever beastly iteration of the 80 are slammed
4. Proximity to that other city, the one in the other part of the state, that isn't home but it'll do and "I've always wanted to spend a few years there to get a feel for it and make my own opinion" (answer will vary based on NorCal/SoCal affiliations)
5. "Can I really make it the ocean or the mountains in under 2 hrs?"
6. That program that said there was no call, light call or, "it almost feels like we're never on call!"
7-10. Programs you never thought about before, and still don't really know anything about because you threw away the folder. Possibly located in or referred to as some kind of "valley" (maybe THE valley, San Bernardino Valley, central valley, Fountain Valley...)
11 and beyond. Programs in states where you had to recheck the map before boarding the plan ("Oh right. It's the one shaped like that...")

 

[PabloPabloPablo]

Can someone speak on their decisions to rank the separate Mt Sinai programs as such? I'm having trouble understanding the differences because I feel like the resources available are relatively comparable. I'm worried because there's mumblings about concern over the "stability" of the Beth Israel program. Thoughts?

 

[tthhrrooaawwaayy]

Can someone speak on their decisions to rank the separate Mt Sinai programs as such? I'm having trouble because I feel like the resources available are relatively comparable. I'm worried because there's mumblings about concern over the "stability" of the Beth Israel program. Thoughts?

Interested in this as well! Particularly Re: BI. I was humbled by the interview invites I have received and I am second guessing ranking BI higher than more stable programs.

The fact they were expanding the number of residents was reassuring. One big question I left with is regarding subsidized housing. One resident said they lost it and another said it was still available. Anyone know?

 

[DrBeanHead]

One big question I left with is regarding subsidized housing. One resident said they lost it and another said it was still available. Anyone know?

From what I gathered, it is no longer guaranteed, though last year all the interns who applied for it still got it.

 

[doggums]

.

 

[nighthawk2551]

Anyone have any opinions on the University of MN or U W Madison programs?