Official Eternal IM WAMC Thread

[1203xx]

how many did you end up applying?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Ganon]

Hey, I just want to echo what I said above.

For anybody reading this topic in the future, go ahead and apply to reaches if it's even somewhat reasonable for you. I'm at a mediocre school and my step 1 is awful-awful, I have no graduate-level research, but I reached for the stars and I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes for the third time. I have a unique story, and I think that played a big part, but... As for me, I have no regrets.

I'm totally not an expert or anything, ymmv and all that, but holy cow I'm glad I blew those few extra dollars.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Tier wise which is better Cleveland Clinic Florida or Main/Foundational?

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Tier wise which is better Cleveland Clinic Florida or Main/Foundational?

Foundation and it's not even close lol

 

[LivinLikeLarry]

Hello
Still only a 3rd year but starting to do some research about programs and things. This is just a starting point, I'm reading online and asking mentors about their experiences at some of these programs. I'm hoping to get some guidance regarding the programs on my list in terms of fellowship possibilities, ranking, strength of training, how much time is spent in the ambulatory setting, rep for malignancy, and how mid-level friendly they are overall.

Background: Non-URM, ties to both east and west coast. STRONG clinical background in emergency medicine and cardiology. Low to mid tier east coast MD school. Looking to be in CA or east coast mainly Around DC, VA, or PA. Open to more suggestions that would fit my criteria.

Step 1: 240's
Step 2: N/A
AOA: not sure, my school is kind of a crapshoot with AOA. Have heard of people who have honor'd almost every clerkship and still not being nominated.
GHHS: I have a better shot at this than at AOA given the feedback I've gotten from peers on clerkships together. Not counting my chickens yet.
Clerkship grades (so far): Honors in 1 outpatient block. HP in Surg, Peds, and IM*
Clinical feedback literally includes the words "functioning at the level of an intern/resident" but I have been narrowly missing the shelf exam cutoff scores set by my school to achieve honors.
Research: nothing published yet but working on an abstract with potential to turn into a low-impact journal article. 1 clinical research project that will generate an abstract and poster presentation, may or may not be published. 1 case report that has high likelihood of being published in a major case report journal.
Extra curricular - extensive clinical volunteering while in med school, previous work history in medicine. Student club president but the club couldn't function that year because of covid restrictions.

Reach/NFW - Without an "H" in IM should I even bother considering these places?
UCSF - totally a reach school and I acknowledge it, but I impressed a mentor who had a significant academic position here (albeit not in IM) who is willing to help me network. I like that there is minimal time scheduled specifically rotating through ambulatory. The HPE track sounds interesting. 12/36 months of elective time sounds like a lot but is this standard for most programs? Do most programs have more/less? I figure why not apply but keep realistic expectations.
Penn - considering taking off the list with their recent NP expansion going on.
Cornell - still researching about this program.
Northwestern - Still researching about this program.
Stanford - because why not?

Target
UC Davis - has a similar med ed. track where you can work with UC Davis med students. Seems like a lot of ambulatory time (8-10 wks first year, 10 wks minimum 2nd and 3rd year) but they mention it can be done in specific subspecialties like endocrine and cards.
UPMC - surprised by this one. Seems to be a dark horse in that its underrated/undermentioned but seems to have great training. Not a great fellowship match list though? Lots of ambulatory time too.
UMMC - not a lot of elective time 5.5 months if I'm reading their site correctly
UCSD
UChicago
GW
Georgetown
Tulane
UNC
Boston University
Rush
Tufts
Wake Forest


Safeties?
Jefferson
Temple
UVA


Not on the list
USC - allegations of SA in their cardiology program made me want to steer clear even if its a CA program.
UCLA - Have a mentor who did residency here and did not recommend it, specifically mentioned he felt like it was very transplant focused and he didn't feel like he got a well-rounded education here.

Elective time and required ambulatory medicine time are only the first two factors I'm looking into when comparing residencies. I don't know what other things I should look at and could use some advice.

*The other thing I could use some advice on is my IM clerkship grade. Our school has an honors cutoff (set by the school) for the shelf, and you have to hit this minimum to get honors, regardless of how well your clinical evaluations are. My clinical evaluations are pretty great, and I missed the cutoff by less than a handful of points. Should I try to appeal if my attendings would support me? I'm not sure how successful anyone has been at this before at my school, but should I give it a try if that Honors in IM would help put me on the radar for places like UCSF, Penn, etc?

Thank you all in advance.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Hello
Still only a 3rd year but starting to do some research about programs and things. This is just a starting point, I'm reading online and asking mentors about their experiences at some of these programs. I'm hoping to get some guidance regarding the programs on my list in terms of fellowship possibilities, ranking, strength of training, how much time is spent in the ambulatory setting, rep for malignancy, and how mid-level friendly they are overall.

Background: Non-URM, ties to both east and west coast. STRONG clinical background in emergency medicine and cardiology. Low to mid tier east coast MD school. Looking to be in CA or east coast mainly Around DC, VA, or PA. Open to more suggestions that would fit my criteria.

Step 1: 240's
Step 2: N/A
AOA: not sure, my school is kind of a crapshoot with AOA. Have heard of people who have honor'd almost every clerkship and still not being nominated.
GHHS: I have a better shot at this than at AOA given the feedback I've gotten from peers on clerkships together. Not counting my chickens yet.
Clerkship grades (so far): Honors in 1 outpatient block. HP in Surg, Peds, and IM*
Clinical feedback literally includes the words "functioning at the level of an intern/resident" but I have been narrowly missing the shelf exam cutoff scores set by my school to achieve honors.
Research: nothing published yet but working on an abstract with potential to turn into a low-impact journal article. 1 clinical research project that will generate an abstract and poster presentation, may or may not be published. 1 case report that has high likelihood of being published in a major case report journal.
Extra curricular - extensive clinical volunteering while in med school, previous work history in medicine. Student club president but the club couldn't function that year because of covid restrictions.

Reach/NFW - Without an "H" in IM should I even bother considering these places?
UCSF - totally a reach school and I acknowledge it, but I impressed a mentor who had a significant academic position here (albeit not in IM) who is willing to help me network. I like that there is minimal time scheduled specifically rotating through ambulatory. The HPE track sounds interesting. 12/36 months of elective time sounds like a lot but is this standard for most programs? Do most programs have more/less? I figure why not apply but keep realistic expectations.
Penn - considering taking off the list with their recent NP expansion going on.
Cornell - still researching about this program.
Northwestern - Still researching about this program.
Stanford - because why not?

Target
UC Davis - has a similar med ed. track where you can work with UCSD med students. Seems like a lot of ambulatory time (8-10 wks first year, 10 wks minimum 2nd and 3rd year) but they mention it can be done in specific subspecialties like endocrine and cards.
UPMC - surprised by this one. Seems to be a dark horse in that its underrated/undermentioned but seems to have great training. Not a great fellowship match list though? Lots of ambulatory time too.
UMMC - not a lot of elective time 5.5 months if I'm reading their site correctly
UCSD
UChicago
GW
Georgetown
Tulane
UNC
Boston University
Rush
Tufts
Wake Forest


Safeties?
Jefferson
Temple
UVA


Not on the list
USC - allegations of SA in their cardiology program made me want to steer clear even if its a CA program.
UCLA - Have a mentor who did residency here and did not recommend it, specifically mentioned he felt like it was very transplant focused and he didn't feel like he got a well-rounded education here.

Elective time and required ambulatory medicine time are only the first two factors I'm looking into when comparing residencies. I don't know what other things I should look at and could use some advice.

*The other thing I could use some advice on is my IM clerkship grade. Our school has an honors cutoff (set by the school) for the shelf, and you have to hit this minimum to get honors, regardless of how well your clinical evaluations are. My clinical evaluations are pretty great, and I missed the cutoff by less than a handful of points. Should I try to appeal if my attendings would support me? I'm not sure how successful anyone has been at this before at my school, but should I give it a try if that Honors in IM would help put me on the radar for places like UCSF, Penn, etc?

Thank you all in advance.

This is my opinion as a lowly MS4 who is almost done with (what I believe to be successful) interview season. I think you have a solid list but wouldnt consider UVA Temple and Jeff safeties-Id say theyre good fits for you. I would maybe move UPMC and definitely move UChicago to reach. I think rocking Step 2 (260+) and working hard to continue to publish research and possibly get a PI letter if you end up finding/securing a mentor would really set you up well and give you a shot at even some of your reaches like UChicago NW and Cornell. HUP UCSF will be hard (its hard for anyone) but nothing is impossible. You very will have a shot at matching anywhere as a USMD from a midtier school with solid board scores (step 2 pending) and continued research. I hate telling people something is impossible so dont let anyone tell you that just work as hard as you possibly can and you will match somewhere thats right for you

 

[expicept]

I am also an MS4 going through interview season, so I am by no means an expert. First things first, I agree with everything the above poster said. There are many factors that play a part in determining one’s competitiveness for IM residency, including (but not limited to): step 1 score, publications (quantity and quality), class rank, number of clerkship honors, AOA, GHHS, and step 2. Many of these things you are months away from having, so I doubt any of us here will be able to give you significant advice on which programs you're competitive for. However, I’ll offer a few suggestions as someone who has interviewed a few of your listed programs.

The biggest advice I’d give is to focus on your current and upcoming rotations instead of trying to appeal your IM grade. Considering your school has a shelf cutoff, arguing that external circumstances might have affected your performance will pose a significant uphill battle. While it’s beneficial to have support from mentors in the field, I wouldn’t risk the possibility of burning bridges with them over a grade appeal when they could possibly elaborate on it in a LOR or phone call to a PD. While a HP is not ideal, there is very little you can realistically do now to change that. Focusing on honoring your remaining rotations and crushing STEP 2 might be a better use of your time and energy.

Additionally, I don’t see much utility in comparing elective time when evaluating programs. From your post, I am assuming you want to pursue a subspecialty like cardiology, and some programs have subspecialty wards such as cardiology (GI, Onc, or Pulm, etc). It's during those rotations where you'll make connections and meet mentors which would have been formed during medical student electives. Elective time at many programs is generally used for POCUS rotations, procedural services, research, or global health rotations. That will not be the case everywhere, I would suggest focusing on factors like traditional vs. X+Y schedule, if the program has a dedicated night float or expects teams to take overnight call when making your list of programs. Also I think your current list is fine, I personally wouldn't have felt comfortable applying to only 20 programs when many people with competitive stats are struggling to get 10-12 interviews after applying to 40-50. Try to apply to enough programs that you will be able to interview and rank 15. If you have any more questions, I'd be happy to answer them to the best that I can.

 

[Deecee2DO]

I am also an MS4 going through interview season, so I am by no means an expert. First things first, I agree with everything the above poster said. There are many factors that play a part in determining one’s competitiveness for IM residency, including (but not limited to): step 1 score, publications (quantity and quality), class rank, number of clerkship honors, AOA, GHHS, and step 2. Many of these things you are months away from having, so I doubt any of us here will be able to give you significant advice on which programs you're competitive for. However, I’ll offer a few suggestions as someone who has interviewed a few of your listed programs.

The biggest advice I’d give is to focus on your current and upcoming rotations instead of trying to appeal your IM grade. Considering your school has a shelf cutoff, arguing that external circumstances might have affected your performance will pose a significant uphill battle. While it’s beneficial to have support from mentors in the field, I wouldn’t risk the possibility of burning bridges with them over a grade appeal when they could possibly elaborate on it in a LOR or phone call to a PD. While a HP is not ideal, there is very little you can realistically do now to change that. Focusing on honoring your remaining rotations and crushing STEP 2 might be a better use of your time and energy.

Additionally, I don’t see much utility in comparing elective time when evaluating programs. From your post, I am assuming you want to pursue a subspecialty like cardiology, and some programs have subspecialty wards such as cardiology (GI, Onc, or Pulm, etc). It's during those rotations where you'll make connections and meet mentors which would have been formed during medical student electives. Elective time at many programs is generally used for POCUS rotations, procedural services, research, or global health rotations. That will not be the case everywhere, I would suggest focusing on factors like traditional vs. X+Y schedule, if the program has a dedicated night float or expects teams to take overnight call when making your list of programs. Also I think your current list is fine, I personally wouldn't have felt comfortable applying to only 20 programs when many people with competitive stats are struggling to get 10-12 interviews after applying to 40-50. Try to apply to enough programs that you will be able to interview and rank 15. If you have any more questions, I'd be happy to answer them to the best that I can.

Totally agree. He should also be fine (100% probability of matching) ranking 10-12 programs as a USMD statistically speaking

 

[SDeduN]

Totally agree. He should also be fine (100% probability of matching) ranking 10-12 programs as a USMD statistically speaking

I don’t disagree but don’t forget that those remain pre-COVID stats, for now

@LivinLikeLarry I agree with my peers in that try to focus on what you can change that’s before you, and try not to overthink. I’m an USMD in the current residency app season, had a much lower Step 1 than you, with a significant Step 2CK jump (30+ pts), and fortunately have interviewed at some of your listed targets. I think you’re certainly more than your scores and I believe some programs do genuinely see that. That said, I’d still say when you start applying, keep it broad (within your loose, personal criteria, like for ex. “academic hospitals that cater to underserved pop.”), reasonably numbered and not overly top-heavy. All the best, you’ll be fine!

 

[Deecee2DO]

I don’t disagree but don’t forget that those remain pre-COVID stats, for now

@LivinLikeLarry I agree with my peers in that try to focus on what you can change that’s before you, and try not to overthink. I’m an USMD in the current residency app season, had a much lower Step 1 than you, with a significant Step 2CK jump (30+ pts), and fortunately have interviewed at some of your listed targets. I think you’re certainly more than your scores and I believe some programs do genuinely see that. That said, I’d still say when you start applying, keep it broad (within your loose, personal criteria, like for ex. “academic hospitals that cater to underserved pop.”), reasonably numbered and not overly top-heavy. All the best, you’ll be fine!

Those stats are for last season

 

[SDeduN]

@Deecee2DO If so, I stand corrected then. Do you mind linking?

 

[Silky Cerberus]

Hello!

M3 here looking to take a preliminary dive into IM programs, competitiveness, etc. Looking for a program that will train me well for either a career in outpatient primary care or Heme/Onc. Would prefer a program with heavier ambulatory training as that is likely the kind of setting I'll strive to work in long-term. As such, I'm likely going to be dual-applying IM with a few FM programs, since I'm not 100% sold on Heme/Onc. Would prefer to stay Midwest, but I lived on the East Coast for a few years and loved it and also love the PNW so also prioritizing those.

Med School: Unranked Midwest USMD
M1-M2 Grades: 2nd or 3rd quartile, basically dead average
M3 Grades:
Honored Surgery, OB, FM;
High-Passed Psych/Neuro
Peds and IM are TBD
Step 1: 230-235
Step 2: TBD
AOA: very unlikely (maybe senior AOA if i honor med and peds)
GHHS: possible
Research: A few posters and activities, will likely have a 4th-author pub by ERAS season. Not my strong suit.
Extracurriculars: Distinction program in global/public health, lots of leadership positions, lots of relevant work experience prior to med school
Volunteering: Solid

Goal Programs (all listed are IM):

Reach: WUStL, BU, Brown, Dartmouth, Rush, UIC, OHSU, OSU, Wisconsin, Cincy

Target: Tufts, CHA, Vermont, Maine Med, Oakland/Beaumont, Loyola, Cook County, Virginia Mason, Indiana, SLU, Minnesota, Rochester, Temple, UMass

Reasonable: St. Elizabeth's Boston, Lahey Clinic, Henry Ford, WMed, Spectrum, Advocate Lutheran Chicago, Scripps Green

Safety: Washington State, Lehigh Valley Hospital, Lankenau, St. Luke's, Baystate

Is this a reasonable list? I know it's preliminary without Step 2 or the IM and Peds grades, but I'm confident in these; NBME Shelves have all been 75th+ percentile thus far, so should jump a bit from Step 1 if I'm diligent.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Hello!

M3 here looking to take a preliminary dive into IM programs, competitiveness, etc. Looking for a program that will train me well for either a career in outpatient primary care or Heme/Onc. Would prefer a program with heavier ambulatory training as that is likely the kind of setting I'll strive to work in long-term. As such, I'm likely going to be dual-applying IM with a few FM programs, since I'm not 100% sold on Heme/Onc. Would prefer to stay Midwest, but I lived on the East Coast for a few years and loved it and also love the PNW so also prioritizing those.

Med School: Unranked Midwest USMD
M1-M2 Grades: 2nd or 3rd quartile, basically dead average
M3 Grades:
Honored Surgery, OB, FM;
High-Passed Psych/Neuro
Peds and IM are TBD
Step 1: 230-235
Step 2: TBD
AOA: very unlikely (maybe senior AOA if i honor med and peds)
GHHS: possible
Research: A few posters and activities, will likely have a 4th-author pub by ERAS season. Not my strong suit.
Extracurriculars: Distinction program in global/public health, lots of leadership positions, lots of relevant work experience prior to med school
Volunteering: Solid

Goal Programs (all listed are IM):

Reach: WUStL, BU, Brown, Dartmouth, Rush, UIC, OHSU, OSU, Wisconsin, Cincy

Target: Tufts, CHA, Vermont, Maine Med, Oakland/Beaumont, Loyola, Cook County, Virginia Mason, Indiana, SLU, Minnesota, Rochester, Temple, UMass

Reasonable: St. Elizabeth's Boston, Lahey Clinic, Henry Ford, WMed, Spectrum, Advocate Lutheran Chicago, Scripps Green

Safety: Washington State, Lehigh Valley Hospital, Lankenau, St. Luke's, Baystate

Is this a reasonable list? I know it's preliminary without Step 2 or the IM and Peds grades, but I'm confident in these; NBME Shelves have all been 75th+ percentile thus far, so should jump a bit from Step 1 if I'm diligent.

Im only an M4 but honestly I think its a good list I think every one of your reaches are doable actually if you do well on Step 2 (250+) with exception to WashU and BU (definitely reaches) and Minnesota and OSU (maybe reaches). Brown doesnt care as much about board scores they emphasize letters and clinical grades so do well on IM and try and honor as many M3 clerkships as u can. Try to get that publication too and u should be in good shape coming from a USMD school

 

[learntothink]

US MD: Top 25
Step 1: 246
Clerkship grades: H on IM, HP on rest.
Step 2: ?
Research: Three 1st author original research pubs (not BS case reports/series) one-third author and 2 middle author.
Recs: 3 good ones, still might get one more.
ECs: none (is this a red flag?)

Am I on course for T20 or do I need to do something else?

 

[Deecee2DO]

US MD: Top 25
Step 1: 246
Clerkship grades: H on IM, HP on rest.
Step 2: ?
Research: Three 1st author original research pubs (not BS case reports/series) one-third author and 2 middle author.
Recs: 3 good ones, still might get one more.
ECs: none (is this a red flag?)

Am I on course for T20 or do I need to do something else?

240+ from a top 25 school and strong research? Yes.

 

[Future_HeartMD]

USMD Top 15
Step 1: 233
Step 2: 256
Clinical grades: 1 H and rest HP so far, medicine still pending
Research: 2 2nd author pubs, 1 first author case report, 4 presentations (1 national conference), another paper in the works
Recs: will have 3 strong letters
ECs: Multiple leadership positions, volunteer experiences

Really trying to end up in south/southeast- have lots of geographic ties.
I know I don't have enough data yet but what tier of programs should/can I be aiming for? Career goal is Cards fellowship. Personal top programs so far in no particular order are UVA, UNC, Emory, UAB, UTSW, Mayo Jax, MUSC.

Edit to add my step 2 score.

 

[Deecee2DO]

USMD Top 15
Step 1: 230-235
Step 2: ?
Clinical grades: 1 H and rest HP so far, medicine still pending
Research: 2 2nd author pubs, 1 first author case report, 4 presentations (1 national conference), another paper in the works
Recs: will have 3 strong letters
ECs: Multiple leadership positions, volunteer experiences

Really trying to end up in south/southeast- have lots of geographic ties.
I know I don't have enough data yet but what tier of programs should/can I be aiming for? Career goal is Cards fellowship. Personal top programs so far in no particular order are UVA, UNC, Emory, UAB, UTSW, Mayo Jax, MUSC.

Before anyone eats me alive im still only an MS4 about to match but my opinions are below. Bolded alone will give you an excellent shot at all the schools you mentioned. With a 260+ Step 2 research good ECs strong letters and H in IM you should have no restrictions applying and have a shot at all tiers and i would add Vandy UFlorida UMiami and Baylor (BCM Houston) to your list. I dont think you need to apply to anything less than solidly mid tier academic programs but I still think youll match top 30. the advantage of coming from a top tier USMD program with no red flags is enormous

 

[Future_HeartMD]

Before anyone eats me alive im still only an MS4 about to match but my opinions are below. Bolded alone will give you an excellent shot at all the schools you mentioned. With a 260+ Step 2 research good ECs strong letters and H in IM you should have no restrictions applying and have a shot at all tiers and i would add Vandy UFlorida UMiami and Baylor (BCM Houston) to your list. I dont think you need to apply to anything less than solidly mid tier academic programs but I still think youll match top 30. the advantage of coming from a top tier USMD program with no red flags is enormous

Appreciate the input! What resources do people typically use for developing a program list? I've used FREIDA, Residency Explorer and just got access to Texas STAR and out of those 3, residency explorer seems to have the most robust data.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Appreciate the input! What resources do people typically use for developing a program list? I've used FREIDA, Residency Explorer and just got access to Texas STAR and out of those 3, residency explorer seems to have the most robust data.

Its honestly tough but i agree I think res explorer is the best. I got a lot of help on here as well. If you go to a top tier USMD program your school advisors may be of some use. I went to a USDO school so my advisors were garbage lmao

 

[AlteredScale]

Appreciate the input! What resources do people typically use for developing a program list? I've used FREIDA, Residency Explorer and just got access to Texas STAR and out of those 3, residency explorer seems to have the most robust data.

Those are the best to use. Outside of that if you need more info go on the programs website and at the further, email the program if you need more info.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Its honestly tough but i agree I think res explorer is the best. I got a lot of help on here as well. If you go to a top tier USMD program your school advisors may be of some use. I went to a USDO school so my advisors were garbage lmao

Advisors at most schools are garbage imo

 

[obiwan]

Any list of top programs in the south/southwest includes Duke, UTSW, Vanderbilt, UNC, Emory, BCM, UAB, UVA. You can apply to all these programs and should be competitive for most of them (Duke might be a hair tougher to crack through). Getting a honors in your medicine clerkship and sub-I will definitely solidify it though

 

[Future_HeartMD]

Any list of top programs in the south/southwest includes Duke, UTSW, Vanderbilt, UNC, Emory, BCM, UAB, UVA. You can apply to all these programs and should be competitive for most of them (Duke might be a hair tougher to crack through). Getting a honors in your medicine clerkship and sub-I will definitely solidify it though

Thanks for the input! I'm guessing I should not try to do an away unless I find my absolute number 1 program?

 

[Deecee2DO]

Thanks for the input! I'm guessing I should not try to do an away unless I find my absolute number 1 program?

You dont really need an away for IM. If you can do one at your home program thats fine

 

[Future_HeartMD]

Any list of top programs in the south/southwest includes Duke, UTSW, Vanderbilt, UNC, Emory, BCM, UAB, UVA. You can apply to all these programs and should be competitive for most of them (Duke might be a hair tougher to crack through). Getting a honors in your medicine clerkship and sub-I will definitely solidify it though

Does applying from the other side of the country change this at all? My school in particular hasn't matched many in the southeast despite getting interviews so I worry that although I have strong geographic ties to the SE, it may not be enough. It seems like zoom interviews have led to more geographic preference for programs but I could be wrong.

 

[obiwan]

Does applying from the other side of the country change this at all? My school in particular hasn't matched many in the southeast despite getting interviews so I worry that although I have strong geographic ties to the SE, it may not be enough. It seems like zoom interviews have led to more geographic preference for programs but I could be wrong.

I don't think so. Seeing how you are from a top 15 medical school on the west coast which narrows down the list, i'm pretty certain the reason that people aren't matching into the southeast programs is not because of some regional bias and especially not because of some prestige deficit. I just think people aren't ranking of them as high. if you look at the UCSF match list for this year for medicine, out of the 36 applicants, 28 of them stayed in california programs and 3 others went to Washington/colorado.

 

[Future_HeartMD]

Any list of top programs in the south/southwest includes Duke, UTSW, Vanderbilt, UNC, Emory, BCM, UAB, UVA. You can apply to all these programs and should be competitive for most of them (Duke might be a hair tougher to crack through). Getting a honors in your medicine clerkship and sub-I will definitely solidify it though

So update and quick question. I ended up honoring medicine thankfully. My school advisors are advising me to not schedule my sub-I until after applications are sent in in the off chance I get HP for whatever reason. With only 2 Hs in 3rd year but one being IM, is this still a good idea?

 

[obiwan]

Nice ! hmmmmm, thats a good question. I have always been under the impression that one should do your sub-I early in 4th year. I did my sub-I at the very beginning of 4th year which I luckily honored and sent on my application. My med school was not a T50 place so I wanted all the ammo in order to get invites to the bigger name programs. But I guess if your advisors are recommending that, then I may not rock the boat unless you are pretty confident in your ability to honoring your sub-I. good luck

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

So update and quick question. I ended up honoring medicine thankfully. My school advisors are advising me to not schedule my sub-I until after applications are sent in in the off chance I get HP for whatever reason. With only 2 Hs in 3rd year but one being IM, is this still a good idea?

How are you on letters? Sub-Is are a great chance to show your worth with a higher level of responsibility, and can be an opportunity for great letters. I’d ask around at your school about how harshly graded sub-Is are.

 

[Future_HeartMD]

How are you on letters? Sub-Is are a great chance to show your worth with a higher level of responsibility, and can be an opportunity for great letters. I’d ask around at your school about how harshly graded sub-Is are.

I have 2 strong letters from my medicine clerkship-one from the clerkship director, one from a PD. And then of course the department chair letter. I will check with my school but based on what they recommend in completing sub-Is after apps are sent if you have H in medicine, I would lean toward them being more harsh than not but I could be wrong.

 

[Deecee2DO]

So update and quick question. I ended up honoring medicine thankfully. My school advisors are advising me to not schedule my sub-I until after applications are sent in in the off chance I get HP for whatever reason. With only 2 Hs in 3rd year but one being IM, is this still a good idea?

Sorry to butt in but in my opinion I dont think it would hurt or benefit much doing the Sub-I. First off sub-Is in IM can help those from lower tier schools/DO schools where PDs may suspect clinical education/training sites are sub-par. They can also help for those with lower scores or those who didnt honor IM during M3. Being that you are at a top tier med school that the last thing on a PDs mind is the quality of your rotations as they know you are at a strong academic hospital when you completed your IM clerkship and were undoubtedly on a teaching service with residents. I also think youd honor it based on the fact you honored IM. I say if you can get a 250-260+ on Step 2 you probably dont need the sub-I but if you get below that it could bolster your app. At the end of the day you are at a T15 school and Ill harp on this again-that alone carries a ton of weight and with it major advantages. I think its honestly up to you but if it were me I would bust ass on Step 2 regardless and probably not do the sub-I. You have the namebrand school its time to ride their coat tail a bit. Times like these where doing well on the MCAT pays off lol hope this helps!

 

[Future_HeartMD]

Sorry to butt in but in my opinion I dont think it would hurt or benefit much doing the Sub-I. First off sub-Is in IM can help those from lower tier schools/DO schools where PDs may suspect clinical education/training sites are sub-par. They can also help for those with lower scores or those who didnt honor IM during M3. Being that you are at a top tier med school that the last thing on a PDs mind is the quality of your rotations as they know you are at a strong academic hospital when you completed your IM clerkship and were undoubtedly on a teaching service with residents. I also think youd honor it based on the fact you honored IM. I say if you can get a 250-260+ on Step 2 you probably dont need the sub-I but if you get below that it could bolster your app. At the end of the day you are at a T15 school and Ill harp on this again-that alone carries a ton of weight and with it major advantages. I think its honestly up to you but if it were me I would bust ass on Step 2 regardless and probably not do the sub-I. You have the namebrand school its time to ride their coat tail a bit. Times like these where doing well on the MCAT pays off lol hope this helps!

No worries thank you for your advice and insight! I was actually just thinking about how step 2 factors into the whole equation as well. My school requires Step 2 by the end of June (of which I take in a few weeks) so my score will undoubtedly be on my application. So I think if I'm in that 250-260 range I will hold off on the sub-I but if I'm in the 240s which is still a solid score nonetheless, I think I'll go for it and hope I do well on the sub-I. Thanks again for the help!

 

[Deecee2DO]

No worries thank you for your advice and insight! I was actually just thinking about how step 2 factors into the whole equation as well. My school requires Step 2 by the end of June (of which I take in a few weeks) so my score will undoubtedly be on my application. So I think if I'm in that 250-260 range I will hold off on the sub-I but if I'm in the 240s which is still a solid score nonetheless, I think I'll go for it and hope I do well on the sub-I. Thanks again for the help!

Really solid plan! Good luck on CK go crush it!

 

[gutonc]

No worries thank you for your advice and insight! I was actually just thinking about how step 2 factors into the whole equation as well. My school requires Step 2 by the end of June (of which I take in a few weeks) so my score will undoubtedly be on my application. So I think if I'm in that 250-260 range I will hold off on the sub-I but if I'm in the 240s which is still a solid score nonetheless, I think I'll go for it and hope I do well on the sub-I. Thanks again for the help!

I don't think this is unreasonable, but be prepared to answer where the LOR from your SubI is. It's a simple enough question to answer correctly "It wasn't scheduled until month X" but you will be asked about it by somebody on the trail.

 

[Heat45]

Hello all,

Posted separately in its own thread but was suggested to check this one out so:

Step 1: 257
Step 2: Not taken

School: Upper middle-tier in the midwest
Research: 4 publications, 7-8 posters, a podium presentation that was honorable mention
Clinical: All honors except FM/OB
LORs: Should be solid, I have verbal commitments from two more well-known attending at my program
ECs: Run in the mill leadership and volunteering. Nothing that I would say stands out.

I will most likely not be in AOA for my class and want to know how this will impact my chances at high-tier IM (I will most likely be applying to all of the top 30 schools, and from then on regional preference). Any advice would be helpful, thank you!

 

[gutonc]

Hello all,

Posted separately in its own thread but was suggested to check this one out so:

Step 1: 257
Step 2: Not taken

School: Upper middle-tier in the midwest
Research: 4 publications, 7-8 posters, a podium presentation that was honorable mention
Clinical: All honors except FM/OB
LORs: Should be solid, I have verbal commitments from two more well-known attending at my program
ECs: Run in the mill leadership and volunteering. Nothing that I would say stands out.

I will most likely not be in AOA for my class and want to know how this will impact my chances at high-tier IM (I will most likely be applying to all of the top 30 schools, and from then on regional preference). Any advice would be helpful, thank you!

Just apply. Your app looks really good. Not stellar, but really good.

You’ll get interviews from research obsessed programs based on your CV that you might not otherwise get based on pedigree.

Nobody can predict where you will and won’t get offers, so just go for it.

I do think that applying to a program just because it’s “Top X”is silly but you do you boo.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Hello all,

Posted separately in its own thread but was suggested to check this one out so:

Step 1: 257
Step 2: Not taken

School: Upper middle-tier in the midwest
Research: 4 publications, 7-8 posters, a podium presentation that was honorable mention
Clinical: All honors except FM/OB
LORs: Should be solid, I have verbal commitments from two more well-known attending at my program
ECs: Run in the mill leadership and volunteering. Nothing that I would say stands out.

I will most likely not be in AOA for my class and want to know how this will impact my chances at high-tier IM (I will most likely be applying to all of the top 30 schools, and from then on regional preference). Any advice would be helpful, thank you!

Your app is very solid. I think youll get some T30 invites without question. Not having AOA may hurt for the big 4 or T10 but you still may get some who really knows. Chuck apps to the T50 IM programs and see what you get. Very strong app as a whole you clearly worked hard

 

[nik1990s]

Does anyone know which is a better program-UofAZ tuscon or phoenix? they both seem to have mostly MDs from decent med schools and fellowship match at tuscon seems solid. Cant seem to find phoenix fellowship match?

I think they are both pretty solid programs. Tucson has stronger PCCM and they also have some of their own fellowships that phoenix does not (hem onc for example). But you will get good training at both. Phoenix is a better city.

 

[nik1990s]

Hello all,

Posted separately in its own thread but was suggested to check this one out so:

Step 1: 257
Step 2: Not taken

School: Upper middle-tier in the midwest
Research: 4 publications, 7-8 posters, a podium presentation that was honorable mention
Clinical: All honors except FM/OB
LORs: Should be solid, I have verbal commitments from two more well-known attending at my program
ECs: Run in the mill leadership and volunteering. Nothing that I would say stands out.

I will most likely not be in AOA for my class and want to know how this will impact my chances at high-tier IM (I will most likely be applying to all of the top 30 schools, and from then on regional preference). Any advice would be helpful, thank you!

AOA will be the only thing that may hold you back for the top 10 places but if step 2 is 90th percentile, I think you will still get the interviews. I didnt get AOA but still interviewed at some top places.

 

[nik1990s]

USMD Top 15
Step 1: 230-235
Step 2: ?
Clinical grades: 1 H and rest HP so far, medicine still pending
Research: 2 2nd author pubs, 1 first author case report, 4 presentations (1 national conference), another paper in the works
Recs: will have 3 strong letters
ECs: Multiple leadership positions, volunteer experiences

Really trying to end up in south/southeast- have lots of geographic ties.
I know I don't have enough data yet but what tier of programs should/can I be aiming for? Career goal is Cards fellowship. Personal top programs so far in no particular order are UVA, UNC, Emory, UAB, UTSW, Mayo Jax, MUSC.

UTSW and UNC might be tough but I think you have a solid chance at the rest. I would recommend you apply to some of these other places that usually do well in cards and are solid IM programs: U of Kentucky, VCU, Wake Forest

 

[Deecee2DO]

I think they are both pretty solid programs. Tucson has stronger PCCM and they also have some of their own fellowships that phoenix does not (hem onc for example). But you will get good training at both. Phoenix is a better city.

Tuscon>Phoenix lol after going through the process

 

[Future_HeartMD]

UTSW and UNC might be tough but I think you have a solid chance at the rest. I would recommend you apply to some of these other places that usually do well in cards and are solid IM programs: U of Kentucky, VCU, Wake Forest

Does it help if my program has matched multiple students each year at UTSW? Also, I do have H in medicine and will hopefully have 250+ step 2 coming soon. Does that increase chances in any significant way?

 

[nik1990s]

Does it help if my program has matched multiple students each year at UTSW? Also, I do have H in medicine and will hopefully have 250+ step 2 coming soon. Does that increase chances in any significant way?

You definitely have a chance at UTSW. Especially if your classmates in the past interviewed/matched.

 

[The Last Ankibender]

I still have a little time to improve my app, rising ms4. I am from a low tier medical school in Puerto Rico - US-MD
step 1: Pass
step 2: 245
Top 10% in class ranking
AOA: lets say no but maybe
Research: 1 publish paper, 5 poster presentation, 1 oral, three other research experience that didnt amount to anything
EC: couple of leadership positions in interes groups and medical education group
what are my chance in florida programs? especially Mayo florida and USf morsani?

 

[nik1990s]

I still have a little time to improve my app, rising ms4. I am from a low tier medical school in Puerto Rico - US-MD
step 1: Pass
step 2: 245
Top 10% in class ranking
AOA: lets say no but maybe
Research: 1 publish paper, 5 poster presentation, 1 oral, three other research experience that didnt amount to anything
EC: couple of leadership positions in interes groups and medical education group
what are my chance in florida programs? especially Mayo florida and USf morsani?

i think you have a great chance at those programs and many more

 

[LivinLikeLarry]

Hello
Still only a 3rd year but starting to do some research about programs and things. This is just a starting point, I'm reading online and asking mentors about their experiences at some of these programs. I'm hoping to get some guidance regarding the programs on my list in terms of fellowship possibilities, ranking, strength of training, how much time is spent in the ambulatory setting, rep for malignancy, and how mid-level friendly they are overall.

Background: Non-URM, ties to both east and west coast. STRONG clinical background in emergency medicine and cardiology. Low to mid tier east coast MD school. Looking to be in CA or east coast mainly Around DC, VA, or PA. Open to more suggestions that would fit my criteria.

Step 1: 240's
Step 2: N/A
AOA: not sure, my school is kind of a crapshoot with AOA. Have heard of people who have honor'd almost every clerkship and still not being nominated.
GHHS: I have a better shot at this than at AOA given the feedback I've gotten from peers on clerkships together. Not counting my chickens yet.
Clerkship grades (so far): Honors in 1 outpatient block. HP in Surg, Peds, and IM*
Clinical feedback literally includes the words "functioning at the level of an intern/resident" but I have been narrowly missing the shelf exam cutoff scores set by my school to achieve honors.
Research: nothing published yet but working on an abstract with potential to turn into a low-impact journal article. 1 clinical research project that will generate an abstract and poster presentation, may or may not be published. 1 case report that has high likelihood of being published in a major case report journal.
Extra curricular - extensive clinical volunteering while in med school, previous work history in medicine. Student club president but the club couldn't function that year because of covid restrictions.

Reach/NFW - Without an "H" in IM should I even bother considering these places?
UCSF - totally a reach school and I acknowledge it, but I impressed a mentor who had a significant academic position here (albeit not in IM) who is willing to help me network. I like that there is minimal time scheduled specifically rotating through ambulatory. The HPE track sounds interesting. 12/36 months of elective time sounds like a lot but is this standard for most programs? Do most programs have more/less? I figure why not apply but keep realistic expectations.
Penn - considering taking off the list with their recent NP expansion going on.
Cornell - still researching about this program.
Northwestern - Still researching about this program.
Stanford - because why not?

Target
UC Davis - has a similar med ed. track where you can work with UC Davis med students. Seems like a lot of ambulatory time (8-10 wks first year, 10 wks minimum 2nd and 3rd year) but they mention it can be done in specific subspecialties like endocrine and cards.
UPMC - surprised by this one. Seems to be a dark horse in that its underrated/undermentioned but seems to have great training. Not a great fellowship match list though? Lots of ambulatory time too.
UMMC - not a lot of elective time 5.5 months if I'm reading their site correctly
UCSD
UChicago
GW
Georgetown
Tulane
UNC
Boston University
Rush
Tufts
Wake Forest


Safeties?
Jefferson
Temple
UVA

Wanted to update this post now that I'm finished 3rd year.
Background: Non-URM, ties to both east and west coast. STRONG clinical background in emergency medicine and cardiology. Low to mid tier east coast MD school. Looking to be in CA or east coast mainly Around DC, VA, or PA. Open to more suggestions that would fit my criteria.

Step 1: 240's
Step 2: not taken yet
AOA: Still not sure, school is changing policy this year actually on how nominations are handled, and possibly doing away with AOA.
GHHS: Nominated
Clerkship grades Honors in 1 outpatient block. HP in Surg, Peds, IM, OB/GYN, Neuro, Psych (Missed honors due to less than a handful of points on the shelf exams. Though clinical comments across the board say "This student performed clinically at the level of honors")

Clinical feedback and Dean's letter comments in every block reflect the same sentiment: I am a student with the right attitude, motivation, social intelligence, and clinical skills to perform very well in residency.

LOR: Letters from attendings who have gone out of their way to offer to write them. They have sent the letters to me (of their own volition even after I waived to see them) for proof reading beforehand. I don't know what most letters of rec look like but the wording and sentiment make me think these are at least great if not amazing letters.

Research: 1 Abstract accepted for a poster at a national conference, may or may not be published. 1 case report first author that has high likelihood of being published in a major case report journal. 1 abstract submitted to a small local conference.

Extra curricular - extensive clinical volunteering while in med school, previous work history in medicine. Student club president but the club couldn't function that year because of covid restrictions.

Reach/Why not?
UCSF
HUP
Northwestern
UPMC
Chicago
Stanford
UIC
UCSD

Target
UC Davis
UMMC
MedStar Georgetown
MedStar Georgetown-Washington
UNC
Boston University
Rush
Tufts
Wake forest
UVA
Jefferson
Temple
VCU
UC Irvine
Scripps
Albert Einstein
Dartmouth
Kaisers (LA, Oakland, SF, SD)
University of colorado
Rush
Brown
Uconn

Safeties?
Rutgers
EVMS
Allegheny
Cooper

Appreciate any thoughts/feedback/reality checks. Thanks in advance.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Wanted to update this post now that I'm finished 3rd year.
Background: Non-URM, ties to both east and west coast. STRONG clinical background in emergency medicine and cardiology. Low to mid tier east coast MD school. Looking to be in CA or east coast mainly Around DC, VA, or PA. Open to more suggestions that would fit my criteria.

Step 1: 240's
Step 2: not taken yet
AOA: Still not sure, school is changing policy this year actually on how nominations are handled, and possibly doing away with AOA.
GHHS: Nominated
Clerkship grades Honors in 1 outpatient block. HP in Surg, Peds, IM, OB/GYN, Neuro, Psych (Missed honors due to less than a handful of points on the shelf exams. Though clinical comments across the board say "This student performed clinically at the level of honors")

Clinical feedback and Dean's letter comments in every block reflect the same sentiment: I am a student with the right attitude, motivation, social intelligence, and clinical skills to perform very well in residency.

LOR: Letters from attendings who have gone out of their way to offer to write them. They have sent the letters to me (of their own volition even after I waived to see them) for proof reading beforehand. I don't know what most letters of rec look like but the wording and sentiment make me think these are at least great if not amazing letters.

Research: 1 Abstract accepted for a poster at a national conference, may or may not be published. 1 case report first author that has high likelihood of being published in a major case report journal. 1 abstract submitted to a small local conference.

Extra curricular - extensive clinical volunteering while in med school, previous work history in medicine. Student club president but the club couldn't function that year because of covid restrictions.

Reach/Why not?
UCSF
HUP
Northwestern
UPMC
Chicago
Stanford


Target
UC Davis
MedStar Georgetown
UCSD. UIC. UNC
Boston University
Tufts
Wake forest
UVA
Jefferson
Temple
VCU
UC Irvine
Albert Einstein
Dartmouth
University of colorado
Rush
Brown
Uconn

Safeties?
UMMC. Rutgers NJMS
EVMS
Allegheny
Kaisers (LA, Oakland, SF, SD) Cooper
MedStar Georgetown-Washington. Scripps

Appreciate any thoughts/feedback/reality checks. Thanks in advance.

I moved a few around but the bolded I think are good targets for you. your safeties are good. I think the rest of the non-bolded under your targets are more reach territory (the T30 programs like UNC UCSD BU Colorado) as things currently stand but your Step 2 score and AOA will be a major determinant of whether some of those become more target range if you can score 250-260+. The non-bolded under your reaches (HUP UCSF Stanford etc) are going to be donations but I still think you should apply because you never know! You could add GW CCF UMaryland and RWJ to your targets. I would say your targets should be midtier (Wake Forest, GW, Temple etc) and some upper-mid tier (Brown Dartmouth UVA etc) and your reaches should be T30 programs. Anything T20 up to the big 4 are going to be donations depending on AOA and Step 2 in my opinion

 

[nik1990s]

Reach/Why not?
UCSF
HUP
Northwestern
UPMC
Chicago
Stanford
UIC
UCSD

I think this is a good reach list. UVA, UC davis, UNC, colorado, will probably also be sorta reach. I had similar scores as you but low-tier MD school and a few more pubs. I never heard back from any of your reach schools. My theory, AOA plays a huge role (had friends who had 220s steps but had AOA and heard back from UNC and UPMC when i didnt). Gold humanism however also helps a lot.

When you think about where you want to go, start thinking about subspecialty a little bit. Most of the places you listed here will get you any fellowship, it will just matter where. If you want to stay in cali as your top priority, UCI and Scripps are solid programs that will get you any fellowship and youll get to stay in cali.

Target
UC Davis
UMMC
MedStar Georgetown
MedStar Georgetown-Washington
UNC
Boston University
Rush
Tufts
Wake forest
UVA
Jefferson
Temple
VCU
UC Irvine
Scripps
Albert Einstein
Dartmouth
Kaisers (LA, Oakland, SF, SD)
University of colorado
Rush
Brown
Uconn

Safeties?
Rutgers
EVMS
Allegheny
Cooper

Appreciate any thoughts/feedback/reality checks. Thanks in advance.

 

[Deecee2DO]

I think this is a good reach list. UVA, UC davis, UNC, colorado, will probably also be sorta reach. I had similar scores as you but low-tier MD school and a few more pubs. I never heard back from any of your reach schools. My theory, AOA plays a huge role (had friends who had 220s steps but had AOA and heard back from UNC and UPMC when i didnt). Gold humanism however also helps a lot.

When you think about where you want to go, start thinking about subspecialty a little bit. Most of the places you listed here will get you any fellowship, it will just matter where. If you want to stay in cali as your top priority, UCI and Scripps are solid programs that will get you any fellowship and youll get to stay in cali.

If UVA is sorta reach then so is Brown and Dartmouth they are same tier (upper mid). I think UVA is within reach. Agree with everythjng else and definitely think the reaches should be the T30 places like Colorado Pitt BU UNC and places like HUP Stanford and UCSF should be considered donations depending on Step 2 score and AOA.

 

[Future_HeartMD]

Reposting with my step 2 score added

USMD Top 15
Step 1: 233
Step 2: 256
Clinical grades: 2 H (H in Medicine), rest HP.
Research: 2 2nd author pubs, 1 first author case report, 4 presentations (1 national conference), another paper in the works
Recs: will have 3 strong letters
ECs: Multiple leadership positions, volunteer experiences

This is the list I have so far but certainly open to other program rec's. Career goal is Cards fellowship.

Reach:
Duke
Mayo Clinic
UMich
Vanderbilt
Baylor
U of Colorado

Target:
UNC
UTSW
UAB
UVA
Emory
Wake Forest
Tulane
U of Utah
Ohio State
UMiami
Case Western
Cleveland Clinic

Safety:
MUSC
Mayo Jax
UF
LSU
Mayo AZ