Please help me rank these programs!!!

[Asclepius483]

In what order would you rank these programs?

Dartmouth, Cleveland Clinic, Mayo, Emory, UChicago.
Location is not a factor; I'm more concerned with quality of training and fellowships opportunities.

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[ropeadope1983]

They are all not good and you won't be able to get a fellowship after training at any of these programs. I wouldn't rank any of them. If I were you I'd look into some of the more high-powered community hospital residency programs, that's your best bet.

 

[sluggo]

UC=Mayo
Emory
Dartmouth
CC

 

[jdh71]

I think Mayo > UC > Emory > Dartmouth > CC, based on reputation and fellowship potential alone . . . one again, I need to reiterate, go where it feels like the best fit.

 

[Scaredshizzles]

In what order would you rank these programs?

Dartmouth, Cleveland Clinic, Mayo, Emory, UChicago.
Location is not a factor; I'm more concerned with quality of training and fellowships opportunities.

UChicago
Mayo
Emory
Dartmouth
Cleveland Clinic

 

[MidwestMD]

...but failing that.

U of C >> Mayo = Emory > Dartmouth > CCF.

Without question, UofC is the most selective/competitive program on your list but there are other factors to consider as well (desired subspecialty, fit, preference of s.o. if applicable, etc).

 

[GILumen]

In what order would you rank these programs?

Dartmouth, Cleveland Clinic, Mayo, Emory, UChicago.
Location is not a factor; I'm more concerned with quality of training and fellowships opportunities.

I would rank in this order...

UChicago>>Mayo>>Emory>>Cleveland Clinic>>Dartmouth

 

[jdh71]

U of C >> Mayo = Emory > Dartmouth > CCF.

"Greater, greater" than Mayo? The "world famous mayo clinic"? I can would entertain arguments that UoC might be a consideration over Mayo, but I've often found that Chicago and the programs there seem to have the over-inflated sense of where they sit in the world of medicine. Which is not to put down UofC at all, but I just don't think the rest of the country sees it that way at all.

Do we have the PD of UofC checking in, all incognito?

 

[MidwestMD]

"Greater, greater" than Mayo? The "world famous mayo clinic"? I can would entertain arguments that UoC might be a consideration over Mayo, but I've often found that Chicago and the programs there seem to have the over-inflated sense of where they sit in the world of medicine. Which is not to put down UofC at all, but I just don't think the rest of the country sees it that way at all.

Do we have the PD of UofC checking in, all incognito?

Fair enough The fact that UofC likes to refer to itself as the Harvard of the midwest does speak to some degree of arrogance, and their financial troubles w/ the loss of several prominent figures over the past couple of yrs warrants closer scrutiny...but it still remains the most selective of the programs listed. I knew a number of classmates that obtained interviews at Mayo but not at UofC. Does selectivity = better training, not necessarily. And coming from the midwest, I'm also probably biased towards the Chicago programs as you mentioned. On the other hand, I did not go to UofC nor am I affiliated in anyway.

Mayo is certainly well recognized nationally and carries it's own "wow factor" for the parents. My med school, as small as it was, liked to boast that it had a special relationship w/ Mayo as several of my classmates matched there. I even ranked them highly when I went through this process yrs ago. But Mayo does suffer from a fellow/attending driven reputation (of course this is entirely based on rumors as I have no 1st hand knowledge of Mayo's inner workings either). And lets face it...unless you work for IBM, enjoy wearing suits daily, or are dying to take care of a Saudi prince at some point in your life, nobody moves to Rochester, MN on purpose

Hence, UofC (in my humble opinion) > (maybe just not >>) than Mayo.

 

[jdh71]

Fair enough The fact that UofC likes to refer to itself as the Harvard of the midwest does speak to some degree of arrogance, and their financial troubles w/ the loss of several prominent figures over the past couple of yrs warrants closer scrutiny...but it still remains the most selective of the programs listed. I knew a number of classmates that obtained interviews at Mayo but not at UofC. Does selectivity = better training, not necessarily. And coming from the midwest, I'm also probably biased towards the Chicago programs as you mentioned. On the other hand, I did not go to UofC nor am I affiliated in anyway.

Mayo is certainly well recognized nationally and carries it's own "wow factor" for the parents. My med school, as small as it was, liked to boast that it had a special relationship w/ Mayo as several of my classmates matched there. I even ranked them highly when I went through this process yrs ago. But Mayo does suffer from a fellow/attending driven reputation (of course this is entirely based on rumors as I have no 1st hand knowledge of Mayo's inner workings either). And lets face it...unless you work for IBM, enjoy wearing suits daily, or are dying to take care of a Saudi prince at some point in your life, nobody moves to Rochester, MN on purpose

Hence, UofC (in my humble opinion) > (maybe just not >>) than Mayo.

Fair enough

 

[Moonglow]

The correct answer, as far as IM reputaiion for fellowships: UChicago Pritzger> Emory> Cleveland Clinic> Mayo> Dartmouth

Remember, Mayo is its own world. Residents from other programs fellow at Mayo, not often the reverse.

 

[Whats_up_doc]

How competitive is Emory?

 

[jdh71]

The correct answer, as far as IM reputaiion for fellowships: UChicago Pritzger> Emory> Cleveland Clinic> Mayo> Dartmouth

Remember, Mayo is its own world. Residents from other programs fellow at Mayo, not often the reverse.

Where's blackNdecker when you need him. Mayo residents place into fellowships just fine. And CC > Mayo? Not as a residency program, not by a long shot.

 

[jdh71]

How competitive is Emory?

Be more specific. For what?

 

[verbalassasin]

They are all not good and you won't be able to get a fellowship after training at any of these programs. I wouldn't rank any of them. If I were you I'd look into some of the more high-powered community hospital residency programs, that's your best bet.

I mean for real, is the sarcasm really needed. The OP is just asking for universal opinion. If you have no opinion, why post.

 

[tarlovcyst]

In what order would you rank these programs?

Dartmouth, Cleveland Clinic, Mayo, Emory, UChicago.
Location is not a factor; I'm more concerned with quality of training and fellowships opportunities.

In my opinion--

Mayo Clinic > UC = Emory > CC > Dartmouth

Keep in mind that Emory is in Atlanta. It's a scary place.

 

[Phineus]

I mean for real, is the sarcasm really needed. The OP is just asking for universal opinion. If you have no opinion, why post.

I actually logged in to say this: Verbalassasin, please chill out!!! I am sure I am not the only one tired of the "please rank the following: MGH, BWH, UCSF, Duke, Emory, Mayo, CCF, UCLA, Columbia...".

 

[jdh71]

I mean for real, is the sarcasm really needed. The OP is just asking for universal opinion. If you have no opinion, why post.

 

[Moonglow]

As always, B&W IM residency carries a lot of prestige; but their residents don't seem to be as bloodied and brutalized as those who completed at Hopkins, MGH, Duke, Penn, and UCSF.

And jdh71, Mayo residents may do well at laterally ranked fellowships, but not at those ranked higher. I can count the Mayo residents that have fellowed at here at Hopkins over the last ten years on one hand.

 

[jdh71]

As always, B&W IM residency carries a lot of prestige; but their residents don't seem to be as bloodied and brutalized as those who completed at Hopkins, MGH, Duke, Penn, and UCSF.

And jdh71, Mayo residents may do well at laterally ranked fellowships, but not at those ranked higher. I can count the Mayo residents that have fellowed at here at Hopkins over the last ten years on one hand.

You seem to assume everyone wants to do a fellowship at Hpokins

 

[Moonglow]

You seem to assume everyone wants to do a fellowship at Hpokins

Not everyone, just the ones that matter. By the way, we had a lunch-with-a-professor a couple of days ago... Dr. Greider talked for about thirty minutes. She's in the last photo:

http://webapps.jhu.edu/jhuniverse/i..._and_statistics/nobel_prize_winners/index.cfm

 

[verbalassasin]

I actually logged in to say this: Verbalassasin, please chill out!!! I am sure I am not the only one tired of the "please rank the following: MGH, BWH, UCSF, Duke, Emory, Mayo, CCF, UCLA, Columbia...".

But the thing is we have an option, look I'm not going to be or trying to be confrontational, but for real skip over the posts you don't like. I'm not going to call you a troll cuz your comment was relatively benign as it was one post but trolls always take over posts that have nothing to do with them. And I apologize to the OP for trolling on your post, so let me redirect to the original topic.


Just rank where you feel that you will fit best 1st. Most of what determines whether you will obtain a fellowship has to do with your effort to identify research mentors, submit abstracts. UofC, Mayo, all of those programs are great, but don't let name alone be the sole determining factor. Which ever program you fit best at, make that your #1.

Forgive my trollness.

 

[jdh71]

Not everyone, just the ones that matter. By the way, we had a lunch-with-a-professor a couple of days ago... Dr. Greider talked for about thirty minutes. She's in the last photo:

http://webapps.jhu.edu/jhuniverse/i..._and_statistics/nobel_prize_winners/index.cfm

Just the one's that matter? Your elitism would be mildly horrifying if it wasn't so incredibly cartoonish.

Take an area like Pulmonary and Critical Care, why would anyone want to go to Hopkins over places like Colorado, Pittsburgh, UW, Penn, WashU, and UCSF or even Baylor, Texas SWern, UCLA, OHSU, MUSC, and Mayo for that matter.

I swear the only people that really seem to care that much about Hopkins are those at Hopkins. I'm sure it feeds some sort of psychological dysfunctional approval mechanism that would buy a therapist a nice little vaction if one ever had the insight to make it to the couch.

 

[Moonglow]

Jdu71,

Uhhhhh, I'm funnin' with you dude.

 

[jdh71]

Jdu71,

Uhhhhh, I'm funnin' with you dude.

I hope so

 

[njshibby]

In my opinion--

Mayo Clinic > UC = Emory > CC > Dartmouth

Keep in mind that Emory is in Atlanta. It's a scary place.

Atlanta is not a scary place. Chicago is just as "scary." And so is Cleveland, but it lacks any redeeming qualities.

 

[Asclepius483]

.Verbalassasin, ..there’s no need to apologize. I value all your comments and I appreciate the replies from all the SDN members. I know that reputation alone is not all (my inquiry pertains to quality of training and fellowship), but it is one of the factors that I will be assessing when making my final rank list. While I did know that they are all good programs, I did not know in what order people would rank them based on name alone, (all else being equal). Again I value all of the feedback given. Thank you..

 

[chitown82]

In my opinion--

Mayo Clinic > UC = Emory > CC > Dartmouth

Keep in mind that Emory is in Atlanta. It's a scary place.

I was at Mayo a month ago and Chicago and Emory this week. No way Emory is equal to Chicago (in my opinion) in reputation, fellowship potential, quality of residents, city.

Mayo seemed very fellow driven and doesn't match well outside of Mayo. Chicago matches very well despite its recent issues and is definitely resident run.

My ranking would be:

Chicago > Mayo > Emory > Dartmouth > CC

 

[chitown82]

Atlanta is not a scary place. Chicago is just as "scary." And so is Cleveland, but it lacks any redeeming qualities.

Granted I'm from Chicago but I've been to Atlanta half a dozen times and Chicago >>> Atlanta in just about everything except weather.

 

[ResidentMD]

Just the one's that matter? Your elitism would be mildly horrifying if it wasn't so incredibly cartoonish.

Take an area like Pulmonary and Critical Care, why would anyone want to go to Hopkins over places like Colorado, Pittsburgh, UW, Penn, WashU, and UCSF or even Baylor, Texas SWern, UCLA, OHSU, MUSC, and Mayo for that matter.

I swear the only people that really seem to care that much about Hopkins are those at Hopkins. I'm sure it feeds some sort of psychological dysfunctional approval mechanism that would buy a therapist a nice little vaction if one ever had the insight to make it to the couch.

This made my day.

I do know that there is nothing to rant about the PCCM at Hopkins. But having said that, Hopkins is known to be a very good training program (each program has caveats - Mayo and UPMC have their fellows, BIDMC doesnt see and do enough, NW I've heard of being cush).

I also guess being in an environment at Hopkins helps, because you would have a stream of visiting faculty, that would be open to collaboration, and thus possibly facilitate an easy exchange in academic circles (read as job offers in academics). this is just shooting in thin air. Also being at hopkins would contribute that 1/3rd of the institutional reputation, and 1/3 mentor's reputation to the NIH grants.

So while I definitely believe Hopkins is important, I do agree with jdh71 that it is not THE ONLY PLACE that people aspire to be - a fact that was somehow reiterated in the Hopkins rejection letter (we hope this rejection does not dissuade you in your pursuit of an internal medicine residency)! Some people just cant stand that environment at Hopkins and would rather be at a low-key place.

P.S. Mayo grads going at lateral levels for fellowships seems to be true from what I see on their fellowship lists. However, Mayo is known to inbreed heavily (much more than most programs I have been at) - so you definitely have the security. And this becomes very important for those going into Cards and GI. Of course, Mayo fellowships are anyway top 10 in the country.

 

[ResidentMD]

Just the one's that matter? Your elitism would be mildly horrifying if it wasn't so incredibly cartoonish.

Take an area like Pulmonary and Critical Care, why would anyone want to go to Hopkins over places like Colorado, Pittsburgh, UW, Penn, WashU, and UCSF or even Baylor, Texas SWern, UCLA, OHSU, MUSC, and Mayo for that matter.

I swear the only people that really seem to care that much about Hopkins are those at Hopkins. I'm sure it feeds some sort of psychological dysfunctional approval mechanism that would buy a therapist a nice little vaction if one ever had the insight to make it to the couch.

This made my day.

I do know that there is nothing to glow over the PCCM at Hopkins. But having said that, Hopkins is known to be a very good training program (each program has caveats - Mayo and UPMC have their fellows, BIDMC doesnt see and do enough, NW I've heard of being cush).

I also guess being in an environment at Hopkins helps, because you would have a stream of visiting faculty, that would be open to collaboration, and thus possibly facilitate an easy exchange in academic circles (read as job offers in academics). this is just shooting in thin air. But the environment and the academic exchange definitely facilitates more Nobel Prize winners, and scientific breakthoughs, as is the case at Stanford, UCSF and HMS. Also being at hopkins would contribute significantly to that 1/3rd of the institutional reputation, and 1/3 mentor's reputation to the NIH grants.

So while I definitely believe Hopkins is important, I do agree with jdh71 that it is not THE ONLY PLACE that people aspire to be - a fact that was somehow reiterated in the Hopkins rejection letter (we hope this rejection does not dissuade you in your pursuit of an internal medicine residency)! Some people just cant stand that environment at Hopkins and would rather be at a low-key place. Enough Nobel Laureates have come out of Seattle (Fred Hutchinson) or UNC, including one from UMass in recent years.

P.S. Mayo grads going at lateral levels for fellowships seems to be true from what I saw on their fellowship lists that they handed out this year. However, Mayo is known to inbreed heavily (much more than most programs I have been at) - so you definitely have the security. And this becomes very important for those going into Cards and GI. Of course, Mayo fellowships are anyway top 10 in the country.

 

[ResidentMD]

Just the one's that matter? Your elitism would be mildly horrifying if it wasn't so incredibly cartoonish.

Take an area like Pulmonary and Critical Care, why would anyone want to go to Hopkins over places like Colorado, Pittsburgh, UW, Penn, WashU, and UCSF or even Baylor, Texas SWern, UCLA, OHSU, MUSC, and Mayo for that matter.

I swear the only people that really seem to care that much about Hopkins are those at Hopkins. I'm sure it feeds some sort of psychological dysfunctional approval mechanism that would buy a therapist a nice little vaction if one ever had the insight to make it to the couch.

This made my day.

I do know that there is nothing to glow over the PCCM at Hopkins. But having said that, Hopkins is known to be a very good training program (each program has caveats - Mayo and UPMC have their fellows, BIDMC doesnt see and do enough, NW I've heard of being cush).

I also guess being in an environment at Hopkins helps, because you would have a stream of visiting faculty, that would be open to collaboration, and thus possibly facilitate an easy exchange in academic circles (read as job offers in academics). this is just shooting in thin air. But the environment and the academic exchange definitely facilitates more Nobel Prize winners, and scientific breakthoughs, as is the case at Stanford, UCSF and HMS. Also being at hopkins would contribute significantly to that 1/3rd of the institutional reputation, and 1/3 mentor's reputation to the NIH grants.

So while I definitely believe Hopkins is important, I do agree with jdh71 that it is not THE ONLY PLACE that people aspire to be - a fact that was somehow reiterated in the Hopkins rejection letter (we hope this rejection does not dissuade you in your pursuit of an internal medicine residency)! Some people just cant stand that environment at Hopkins and would rather be at a low-key place. Enough Nobel Laureates have come out of Seattle (Fred Hutchinson) or UNC, including one from UMass in recent years.

P.S. Mayo grads going at lateral levels for fellowships seems to be true from what I saw on their fellowship lists that they handed out this year. However, Mayo is known to inbreed heavily (much more than most programs I have been at) - so you definitely have the security. And this becomes very important for those going into Cards and GI. Of course, Mayo fellowships are anyway top 10 in the country.

 

[ResidentMD]

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[ResidentMD]

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[ropeadope1983]

I mean for real, is the sarcasm really needed. The OP is just asking for universal opinion. If you have no opinion, why post.

Sorry, I thought the OP was being sarcastic.

 

[jdh71]

This made my day.

I do know that there is nothing to rant about the PCCM at Hopkins. But having said that, Hopkins is known to be a very good training program (each program has caveats - Mayo and UPMC have their fellows, BIDMC doesnt see and do enough, NW I've heard of being cush).

I also guess being in an environment at Hopkins helps, because you would have a stream of visiting faculty, that would be open to collaboration, and thus possibly facilitate an easy exchange in academic circles (read as job offers in academics). this is just shooting in thin air. Also being at hopkins would contribute that 1/3rd of the institutional reputation, and 1/3 mentor's reputation to the NIH grants.

So while I definitely believe Hopkins is important, I do agree with jdh71 that it is not THE ONLY PLACE that people aspire to be - a fact that was somehow reiterated in the Hopkins rejection letter (we hope this rejection does not dissuade you in your pursuit of an internal medicine residency)! Some people just cant stand that environment at Hopkins and would rather be at a low-key place.

P.S. Mayo grads going at lateral levels for fellowships seems to be true from what I see on their fellowship lists. However, Mayo is known to inbreed heavily (much more than most programs I have been at) - so you definitely have the security. And this becomes very important for those going into Cards and GI. Of course, Mayo fellowships are anyway top 10 in the country.

Hopkins is an amazing place. #1 for IM, hands down (and just about anything else). My comments were not made to put Hopkins down but rather to address and attitude I thought I was seeing. I've got no hate for an amazing place like Hopkins.

And why would Mayo residents want to go outside of Mayo for fellowship, when Mayo fellowships tend to be so strong? Perhaps the reason you see Mayo residents not going anywhere else is not a product of them not being able to, but rather a simple occurance of wanting to stay.

 

[chitown82]

Hopkins is an amazing place. #1 for IM, hands down (and just about anything else). My comments were not made to put Hopkins down but rather to address and attitude I thought I was seeing. I've got no hate for an amazing place like Hopkins.

And why would Mayo residents want to go outside of Mayo for fellowship, when Mayo fellowships tend to be so strong? Perhaps the reason you see Mayo residents not going anywhere else is not a product of them not being able to, but rather a simple occurance of wanting to stay.

Well said.

 

[ResidentMD]

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[Phineus]

Hopkins is an amazing place. #1 for IM, hands down (and just about anything else). My comments were not made to put Hopkins down but rather to address and attitude I thought I was seeing. I've got no hate for an amazing place like Hopkins.

And why would Mayo residents want to go outside of Mayo for fellowship, when Mayo fellowships tend to be so strong? Perhaps the reason you see Mayo residents not going anywhere else is not a product of them not being able to, but rather a simple occurance of wanting to stay.

People actually want to stay in Rochester, MN voluntarily?!!

On a serious note, IM at The Hopkins produces stellar clinicians, but not all stellar clinicians are produced at Hopkins.

 

[ResidentMD]

Hopkins is an amazing place. #1 for IM, hands down (and just about anything else). My comments were not made to put Hopkins down but rather to address and attitude I thought I was seeing. I've got no hate for an amazing place like Hopkins.

And why would Mayo residents want to go outside of Mayo for fellowship, when Mayo fellowships tend to be so strong? Perhaps the reason you see Mayo residents not going anywhere else is not a product of them not being able to, but rather a simple occurance of wanting to stay.

True about Hopkins.

About Mayo, it is true one wouldnt want to move outside Mayo, as buying a house in Rochester is dirt cheap, and a 6 year commitment isnt too bad. But it would be good to have the options to move out (e.g. for PCCM go to Colorado or UCSF,etc) and somehow it doesnt seem to show on their list. I guess the OP can also discuss this issue with the PD if he/she wants to go there. The PD is very approachable, and I know he makes calls for his residents for those who want to go outside Mayo for fellowships.

 

[chitown82]

People actually want to stay in Rochester, MN voluntarily?!!

My sentiments exactly haha

 

[chitown82]

a 6 year commitment isnt too bad

Six years is an eternity. Six years ago I was in the middle of undergrad, not of drinking age, and a totally different person.

 

[verbalassasin]

People actually want to stay in Rochester, MN voluntarily?!!

On a serious note, IM at The Hopkins produces stellar clinicians, but not all stellar clinicians are produced at Hopkins.

Excellent point!!!

 

[kublai]

had a convo about UC on the interview trail with a fellow applicant: any truth to the fact that some big name attendings have left?

He seemed to indicate that it is a program on the decline...not sure I know enough since i havent interviewed there yet.

just for rep at least (per me though heavily biased by opinion of my school's pd): mayo> emory=UC> dartmouth. emory>UC for cardiology applicants specifically. No idea how CC is.