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Veterinary Science Graduate Programs from U. of I.
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Rwwilliams said:
How long ago did you send in the bag of food? Not sure if the not-taking-it-when-already-opened is a new thing or not for them. I was going to contact our Hill's rep to ask about it because it seems rather strange. Especially considering it just means that people with issues they want to chase up will send the food to the state lab instead. Seems like Hill's (or any dog food company) would prefer to handle that internally.
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A year and a half to 2 years ago. I went and did a MS last year. ..
 
I haven't been more comfortable eating meat since visiting a number of production and plant sites locally. Dairy even more so.

Swine I'm less comfortable with though.
 
LetItSnow said:
But organic foods don't have CHEMICALS in them!
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Here, have some all organic non-farmed fresh caught puffer fish with a natural source of TTX, garnished with organic wild-grown and gathered amanita mushroom. Add in some raw organic grass fed humanely raised and slaughtered beef with all natural toxo. You'll have a grand time. No chemical additives at all.

I'll go ahead and eat my nonorganic banana (my favorite cheap source of fresh fruit), which hasn't killed me just yet. I doubt it ever will.
 
Also production wise organic usually produces less than non organic per acre. That's one reason it's more expensive.

I have to say that the farms I visited while in vet school were very well run and the animals were content.
 
dyachei said:
I have to say that the farms I visited while in vet school were very well run and the animals were content.
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Same. All farms I've visited the animals were very happy and well cared for. It was also hilarious to listen to the one farmer talk about his favorite cow. That cow was a PIA because it required so much hand raising when it was a calf. Kind of like a bottle fed kitten turning into a little devil.
 
LetItSnow said:
Newsflash: Nature doesn't have an 'intent'.

I don't take the 'ethical' vegans (etc.) too seriously. They mostly walk around with their noses in the air about what awesome people they are while typing away on their (practically) slave-manufactured iphone. Seems like pretty select ethics. If someone wants to be vegan because they feel it's nutritionally superior for them - more power to them. The second they go from that to getting snooty over ethics and trying to make me feel bad because I like to eat beef, pork, chicken, fish, and a few other animal types ... Meh, no longer worth my time.

My cat endorses this post. And says "go meat or go home."
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My favorite is those who shovel in quinoa and then rant about how bad the meat production industry is. Clearly they don't understand where that quinoa comes from and how many people are suffering so they can enjoy it. But people suffering seems to be ok with some, as long as animals don't.

But then they miss that anytime any crop is farmed, there are many small mammals and other animals driven out of their homes or killed in the process. There really isn't any way to grow/raise food without there being some impact on animals. Be that raising cattle or growing corn.
 
hazelmoo said:
I disagree about nature having intent. Obviously not conscious intent, but evolutionary biology is an amazing thing.
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Equating evolution to any kind of intent is a misrepresentation of how evolution works.
The adaptations that persist are random mutations that happen to make certain individuals more successful than others. There is no"intent" involved.
 
Trilt said:
Sorry - ran off to the movies. We may have to agree to disagree, but I feel like the animals that die in production that are considered "acceptable losses" are absolutely suffering before they die. I also don't think there is a particularly good way to transport animals the necessary long distances without some suffering, and while I think many slaughter facilities have done great things (<3 Temple Grandin!) there is still lots of stress there. All this, imo, is especially egregious in poultry production vs most mammals.

And I'm not saying that huge steps haven't been made, or that vets don't do a huge boon to the industry in maintaining standards - I just personally find it very uncomfortable to go from treating a pet for thousands of dollars to eating a chicken whose entire life I can buy for a couple bucks by the checkout line. :shrug: So I don't cook meat, minimize my cheese/eggs consumption, and try not to eat very much meat from other sources. That's where I'm comfortable in life, and if people ask about my veggie choices, I say exactly what I just said and usually leave it at that.
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Why would you be sorry for running off to the movies??? Movies are awesome! Don't be sorry for going to see a movie. 🙂

I'm not going to say farm animals never "suffer", but every type of animal gets sick or injured at some point in their life. Farmers do the best they can to treat the animals that can be treated. Those that can't, they do the best they can to minimize "suffering" as much as possible. I don't really see it as the animals "suffering" though, illness and injury happen as long as they are addressed and what is best is done, that is acceptable for me. But we may just have to agree to disagree.
 
LadyOtheFarm said:
There are people who think we have grown so long cohabiting with parasites that our immune system is designed to carry a light load. There is actually some pretty convincing (to me) evidence for it including a decrease in allergies, asthma, and arthritis with certain light worm infections. I'm still not signing up though!
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This isn't actually saying carrying a load for life is good. It's dealing with a "critical period." (At least the current theory anyway). If I was able to do my choice of research products right now, it would be centered around this concept, figuring out if/when critical period exists in dogs and differences in rates of allergy/autoimmune/cancer afterwards.
 
Considering most food animals and equines carry some parasites with them and they still have cancer/allergy/autoimmune issues. I don't think there is any correlation between parasite loads and the rate of allergy/autoimmune/cancer.
 
DVMDream said:
Considering most food animals and equines carry some parasites with them and they still have cancer/allergy/autoimmune issues. I don't think there is any correlation between parasite loads and the rate of allergy/autoimmune/cancer.
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Fair enough, though a lot of stuff on the human side of things is pointing that way. I am not saying that they can't get autoimmune/cancer/allergy with it. I am more interested in the rates of incidence compared between a currently theoretical critical point infected animal vs a control animal and see if there is a difference.
 
LadyOtheFarm said:
A year and a half to 2 years ago. I went and did a MS last year. ..
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I don't understand what your degree has to do with this conversation... I was just wondering if they'd changed their protocols (which is likely since you contacted them so long ago), or if I needed to call back and talk to someone else.
 
DVMDream said:
My favorite is those who shovel in quinoa and then rant about how bad the meat production industry is. Clearly they don't understand where that quinoa comes from and how many people are suffering so they can enjoy it. But people suffering seems to be ok with some, as long as animals don't.
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I don't eat quinoa, but that's the controversy with it?
 
Rwwilliams said:
I don't eat quinoa, but that's the controversy with it?
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It is a large part of the diet of those in South America. Since it has become so popular in North America, the prices have skyrocketed. The poor in South America can no longer afford what is a very important food for their diet. There have also been battles between farmers attempting to get land to grow the quinoa. Also, the quinoa is now being mass produced and the quality of producing it is decreasing and causing issues with soil fertility.

I think there was also something about the deplorable working conditions of those they hire to manually harvest the quinoa because the farm equipment they use to farm it all requires manual labor.
 
Thanks for the advice on calling Royal Canin about it. I think I gave a good enough explanation of it for her. Then we started talking about what causes the stones (presumed CaOx until proven otherwise) and she feeds this Canidae fish diet that is 32.00% protein and has lots of potato and fish... hmm. We'll try another diet and see how that goes, even if it isn't a specific urinary diet. + lots of water.
 
There's always been that double standard in all aspects of the various animal industries. People will attack American farming all day long while wearing clothes developed through child labor. A part of it is that this is more visible than other ethical problems due to groups like PETA and the HSUS marketing it.

I got in a discussion with a girl I knew from high school about horse slaughter and the first thing she said was that it would be horrible. I said that the alternatives we're living with now are (in my opinion) worse. I don't think a lot of lay people use a lot of critical thinking skills when discussing these problems.
 
twelvetigers said:
Thanks for the advice on calling Royal Canin about it. I think I gave a good enough explanation of it for her. Then we started talking about what causes the stones (presumed CaOx until proven otherwise) and she feeds this Canidae fish diet that is 32.00% protein and has lots of potato and fish... hmm. We'll try another diet and see how that goes, even if it isn't a specific urinary diet. + lots of water.
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a lot of their other rx diets also have a urinary SO index now.
 
Rwwilliams said:
I don't understand what your degree has to do with this conversation... I was just wondering if they'd changed their protocols (which is likely since you contacted them so long ago), or if I needed to call back and talk to someone else.
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Just explaining that I haven't been working in vet med for over a year because I went to school. Just saying I went to school makes some assume vet school so I have learned to clarify. Sorry that I had to explain my explanation.
 
WildZoo said:
Equating evolution to any kind of intent is a misrepresentation of how evolution works.
The adaptations that persist are random mutations that happen to make certain individuals more successful than others. There is no"intent" involved.
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I work in an evolutionary biology lab under an extremely scientifically famous population geneticist and evolutionary biologist. I would still argue that nature has an intent through evolution and natural/sexual selection!
 
hazelmoo said:
I work in an evolutionary biology lab under an extremely scientifically famous population geneticist and evolutionary biologist. I would still argue that nature has an intent through evolution and natural/sexual selection!
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The problem I have with nature "having intent" is that you have to not just be alive, but also mental purpose for your actions. Although individual pieces of nature are alive and have purpose, nature itself isn't.
 
hazelmoo said:
I work in an evolutionary biology lab under an extremely scientifically famous population geneticist and evolutionary biologist. I would still argue that nature has an intent through evolution and natural/sexual selection!
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Nature does not have intent.

Intent is with "purpose"... nature doesn't purposely evolve in a specific way. Nature doesn't have "thought" it just has action and response. Evolution that we have seen occur over many many years was not done with intent. Far from it. That evolution occurred due to random mutations in different species that just happened to benefit that species. That isn't intent. You need mental forethought for intent to occur. Nature doesn't "think" about things. Evolution isn't a "thought process". Natural selection isn't a "thought process".

I intend to get to 30% of my vetprep review this weekend.
The galapagos finches didn't intend to change their beak size and shape, it just happened. They didn't sit there and go, "I think we need to change our beak sizes"....
 
You guys are right; I don't know anything and none of the knowledge my mentor has aquired has transferred to me by learning from and working under him.

Wondering if you have ever heard of the term "personification"? I didn't mean that nature had a CONSCIOUS intent, but instead that things have happened over millions of years with a very specific reason behind it.
 
hazelmoo said:
You guys are right; I don't know anything and none of the knowledge my mentor has aquired has transferred to me by learning from and working under him.

Wondering if you have ever heard of the term "personification"? I didn't mean that nature had a CONSCIOUS intent, but instead that things have happened over millions of years with a very specific reason behind it.
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Yup, have heard of personification. Also anthropomorphism. I also don't believe in doing that.

I don't give things that aren't human, human qualities.
 
DVMDream said:
Yup, have heard of personification. Also anthropomorphism. I also don't believe in doing that.

I don't give things that aren't human, human qualities.
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I do. But only for fun. It's more fun to imagine my cats as little people when they smack each other and make a narrative.
 
DVMDream said:
This is fun to do. Can make quite a comical narrative.
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Especially when one wanders over to another, sniffs tush and makes that face that says "Dude, what did you eat? Take care of that crap! I'm gonna sleep over here now." Then walks away shaking his head and muttering to himself about his stupidity for putting his nose there in the first place.
 
hazelmoo said:
I didn't mean that nature had a CONSCIOUS intent, but instead that things have happened over millions of years with a very specific reason behind it.
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That's not what you said, though.
 
hazelmoo said:
I disagree about nature having intent. Obviously not conscious intent, but evolutionary biology is an amazing thing.

I wouldn't not take people seriously for having different views than me (that sounds more snooty than anything). I also don't think I've been snooty at all, nor have I tried to make people feel bad. I'm a vegetarian for ethical reasons. Some people do it for health. Some people eat bugs, some eat dogs, some eat cows, good for them.

I try to be well rounded with my ethics and I do a pretty damn good job, but I don't need to prove that to anyone. Everyone lives how they live and I'm proud of the life I live because it's right for me!
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batsenecal said:

That's not what you said, though.
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I stand corrected

Edit: I do want to ask you then what kind of "intent" nature has since (as most of us have pointed out) you have to have purpose to have intent.
 
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batsenecal said:
I stand corrected

Edit: I do want to ask you then what kind of "intent" nature has since (as most of us have pointed out) you have to have purpose to have intent.
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Natural selection, survival of the fittest! Nature "intends" for the species to evolve to be the best that they can be under certain circumstances for energy conservation, reproductive fitness, and overall survival. The purpose is survival and prosperity.
 
hazelmoo said:
Natural selection, survival of the fittest! Nature "intends" for the species to evolve to be the best that they can be under certain circumstances for energy conservation, reproductive fitness, and overall survival. The purpose is survival and prosperity.
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But how does Nature "intend" this? Natural selection is simply a response to changing environmental conditions.
 
batsenecal said:
But how does Nature "intend" this? Natural selection is simply a response to changing environmental conditions.
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Why don't we leave it at hazelmoo just has an interesting definition of "intent" that differs from just about everyone else on this planet. Maybe this special definition is passed on from this famous evolutionary biologist to people in his group.

Intent =/= a wonderful magical special thing that nature does to adapt in response to change for most of us, but maybe it does for these particular people
 
It's not a special definition. It's a personification. I don't really wish to continue to talk about it if I'm going to be ridiculed 🙂
 
Let's change the subject.

I was making dinner tonight and the recipe repeated multiple times to be careful when adding the jalapeño because it's really hot if you add the entire pepper. I like spicy food, so I used the entire pepper and 1/4 home grown habanero, and this meal wasn't even slightly spicy! Looks like the rest of the habanero will be going in the remaining 3 servings.
 
Jilary said:
Let's change the subject.

I was making dinner tonight and the recipe repeated multiple times to be careful when adding the jalapeño because it's really hot if you add the entire pepper. I like spicy food, so I used the entire pepper and 1/4 home grown habanero, and this meal wasn't even slightly spicy! Looks like the rest of the habanero will be going in the remaining 3 servings.
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That depends on the individual jalapeños and habaneros. You could have just gotten some mild ones. It happens. Also, if you let the leftovers sit for a few days, they should become a tiny bit spicier.
 
Isn't there something too about curved stems are sweeter and straight stems are hotter?
 
katashark said:
That depends on the individual jalapeños and habaneros. You could have just gotten some mild ones. It happens. Also, if you let the leftovers sit for a few days, they should become a tiny bit spicier.
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I didn't taste test the jalapeño like I normally do, but I know the habanero was hot. I've never had leftovers get spicier, they typically mellow out a bit IMO. I chopped up the rest of the habanero and tossed it in, so these leftovers should definitely be spicier.
 
hazelmoo said:
It's not a special definition. It's a personification.
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I think you summed up my point nicely there.


hazelmoo said:
I don't really wish to continue to talk about it if I'm going to be ridiculed 🙂
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I think that is wise. Though seriously, I wasn't ridiculing you. Quite the contrary. I was saying that I think the disconnect here is likely based on word choice/semantics, rather than stupidity. I would also advise you not discuss this topic in the manner you did here for vet school interviews provided you are not in vet school yet.
 
Jilary said:
I didn't taste test the jalapeño like I normally do, but I know the habanero was hot. I've never had leftovers get spicier, they typically mellow out a bit IMO. I chopped up the rest of the habanero and tossed it in, so these leftovers should definitely be spicier.
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If you used large chunks, the capsaicin should release into the leftovers over time. Also, as the moisture evaporates out of the dish, the flavor and spiciness should become more concentrated.
 
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