RANT HERE thread

[Puffins]

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Whoaaaa... I'm late to the party. @pinkpuppy9 that is ****ing crazy what you said about people stealing limbs for grades. Talk about disrespectful and cutthroat. Hang in there!!!!

 

[hazelmoo]

My nutrition professor was an input/output based kind of guy. His opinion was that people can survive without meat, but not live well (as in healthy). He talked about legumes and all the alternatives, but spoke over and over about how in order to get the same requirements that a meat eater gets out of just a 4 oz steak or 2 eggs, a vegan has to eat a comparable mountain. (Again, based on absorption rates from input/output studies). He also highly recommended eggs and milk in general and tried to convince vegans to go vegetarian at least to ease his conscious. But, that was the Animal nutrition professor. He made a point of saying he hated fad diets and preferred studies that were as scientifically based as possible. He got into several fights with the social/humanities department nutritionist who recommended all her students go gluten free and vegetarian if possible unless they had blood type ** because "those people do need meat."

It's kinda a crap chute sometimes. I just eat what makes me feel good. Junk food and lots of sugar make me feel like a crap popsicle. Meat and spinach and fruits and veggies make me feel alert and healthy and allow me to keep my crazy schedule. No meat at all and I get very pale and lethargic in days. My white count also plummets and I get ill very quickly. If I'm on my period it's many times worse.

That's interesting, because I felt 100 times better when I stopped eating meat. Genetics must have a lot to do with it. A cultural anthropology professor taught us a lot about eating habits of other countries, with the Japanese race historically being one of the healthiest because of their meat consumption being almost mostly fish when they eat meat at all!

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

Yeah, there is a group in Greece that has a mostly seafood diet with the oldest healthy population and lowest cancer rate. The sea is good for us if we can figure out sustainability.

 

[hazelmoo]

Yeah, there is a group in Greece that has a mostly seafood diet with the oldest healthy population and lowest cancer rate. The sea is good for us if we can figure out sustainability.

AMEN!!! <3 <3 <3

 

[DVMDream]

That's interesting, because I felt 100 times better when I stopped eating meat. Genetics must have a lot to do with it. A cultural anthropology professor taught us a lot about eating habits of other countries, with the Japanese race historically being one of the healthiest because of their meat consumption being almost mostly fish when they eat meat at all!

That is great that you felt better when changing, but I want you to seriously consider this.

People who suddenly decide to change their diet aren't usually eating well to start with. How was your diet prior to changing it? Was it balanced? Were you eating fast food meat? Meat that you cooked yourself at home? Were you also eating a balance of veggies/fruits/dairy? Were you getting appropriate exercise? Etc, etc... Really think about this. I am not saying you weren't, but often when people do decide on a diet change, they weren't starting off with a really healthy diet prior to that point.

I see this many times on different websites were people go.. "well, I used to eat lots of meat and fast food and then I realized it is bad and went to all GMO free, gluten free, organic food and now I feel 100 times better and it is because GMO's are bad and organic food is better". When, in reality, it is just that they started to care about their diet more and had they done similar changes without necessarily being "organic" or "GMO free" they would have also felt that 100 times better.

 

[katashark]

Can we talk about how f**king annoying the vegetarians are who say they don't eat meat, but then eat fish? You are a pescatarian, not a vegetarian. Gahhhhhh.

I love fish. I worked for Monterey Bay Aquarium @hazelmoo, I'm so glad you have the seafood guide. There is also an app. Even one for sushi! And guides based on where you are located because certain fish are sustainable based on where you live. Also, on the app, there is a map where you can add restaurants that serve sustainable seafood! Yay! I love the ocean!!!!!!

 

[Caiter92]

Can we talk about how f**king annoying the vegetarians are who say they don't eat meat, but then eat fish? You are a pescatarian, not a vegetarian. Gahhhhhh.

Ha! That and "vegetarians" who eat chicken. Chickens are vegetables? I had no idea! 😛

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

That animal nutrition professor also had a platform of increasing grass fed animal products. He was part of the study where rats bred to form tumors were fed a milk based diet and had significantly fewer tumors. They also did a vegetarian diet and a grass fed milk diet to increase certain fatty acids (the rumen is sooo cool) and the biggest results were from the increased fatty acid (omega 3&6) diets.

One would think Americans would approve of cancer fighting milk with a fatty acid ratio closer to fish but without the taste of oil fed milk, but in order to do so, the industry would need to label the bottles with a warning that they have increased levels of trans fats (omega 3&6 again, but the rules say they have to write it the scary way) so the dairy industry decided the American public wouldn't buy it.

The short is, he was trying to find a way around using the ocean to give people a diet that more closely matched diet to the Mediterranean one.

 

[hazelmoo]

That is great that you felt better when changing, but I want you to seriously consider this.

People who suddenly decide to change their diet aren't usually eating well to start with. How was your diet prior to changing it? Was it balanced? Were you eating fast food meat? Meat that you cooked yourself at home? Were you also eating a balance of veggies/fruits/dairy? Were you getting appropriate exercise? Etc, etc... Really think about this. I am not saying you weren't, but often when people do decide on a diet change, they weren't starting off with a really healthy diet prior to that point.

I see this many times on different websites were people go.. "well, I used to eat lots of meat and fast food and then I realized it is bad and went to all GMO free, gluten free, organic food and now I feel 100 times better and it is because GMO's are bad and organic food is better". When, in reality, it is just that they started to care about their diet more and had they done similar changes without necessarily being "organic" or "GMO free" they would have also felt that 100 times better.

I did most of my own cooking. I've never liked fast food (except Taco Bell.. My weakness), so I cooked a lot. Even in high school, I did most of the cooking for my family. I wouldn't say my diet was the best, it was balanced but I'm not sure how well. We were kinda poor so a lot of what we ate was cheap/frozen meat and veggies. Being a vegetarian forced me to eat a lot of fresh food, which I love. But I honestly became a vegetarian for my own ethical reasons, feeling better and healthier was just the an added bonus.

I don't really understand the whole stigma against GMOs, gluten, corn syrup, etc... I like the idea of organic food just because it's all natural but I can't afford it. Lol

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

Ok, last crazy post:

Anybody else read the studies recently that prove that vegetables not only "feel" pain but release stress hormones and take evasive actions when their predators are around?

 

[katashark]

Also, the new health trends that are moving far away from sustainability (ie the fads of avocado, quinoa, etc)

 

[dyachei]

I did most of my own cooking. I've never liked fast food (except Taco Bell.. My weakness), so I cooked a lot. Even in high school, I did most of the cooking for my family. I wouldn't say my diet was the best, it was balanced but I'm not sure how well. We were kinda poor so a lot of what we ate was cheap/frozen meat and veggies. Being a vegetarian forced me to eat a lot of fresh food, which I love. But I honestly became a vegetarian for my own ethical reasons, feeling better and healthier was just the an added bonus.

I don't really understand the whole stigma against GMOs, gluten, corn syrup, etc... I like the idea of organic food just because it's all natural but I can't afford it. Lol

This last sentence....please do some research on organic v. Non organic. The results might surprise you as to why natural isn't always better.

 

[DVMDream]

I like the idea of organic food just because it's all natural but I can't afford it. Lol

Le sigh.... how is organic food "all natural"??

 

[Minnerbelle]

Except those 3% of factory farms are where 99% of animals raised for consumption are from.

Wow. Where did you learn this?

 

[WildZoo]

Ok, last crazy post:

Anybody else read the studies recently that prove that vegetables not only "feel" pain but release stress hormones and take evasive actions when their predators are around?

Acacia trees are a great example of this

 

[hazelmoo]

This last sentence....please do some research on organic v. Non organic. The results might surprise you as to why natural isn't always better.

Le sigh.... how is organic food "all natural"??

It's grown without help... Naturally. Like nature intended. I grew my own watermelon, cantaloupe, and cucumbers. I liked them better than store bought.

Edit: I do think sometimes it's not always the best, especially when it comes to bugs and whatnot. But don't get me started on how pesticides affect the environment!

 

[hazelmoo]

Ok, last crazy post:

Anybody else read the studies recently that prove that vegetables not only "feel" pain but release stress hormones and take evasive actions when their predators are around?

That's crazy! I like that most veggies and fruits are taken without harming the whole plant. I hate when my family tries to pull the whole "plants have feelings too" BS, because most stuff we eat are reproductive organs of the actual tree/plant themselves! Weird to think about but so cool!

 

[DVMDream]

It's grown without help... Naturally. Like nature intended. I grew my own watermelon, cantaloupe, and cucumbers. I liked them better than store bought.

It is grown with a TON of help. Heck organic crops are sprayed with pesticides just as much, if not more than non-organic crops. Being sprayed with pesticides is far from "natural".

 

[hazelmoo]

It is grown with a TON of help. Heck organic crops are sprayed with pesticides just as much, if not more than non-organic crops. Being sprayed with pesticides is far from "natural".

I wasn't aware of this! I just figured organic was similar to how I grew my own stuff in the backyard!
I hate pesticides. I participated in research with how it affects water runoff and eventually rivers/creeks and the animals in them. It especially affects lots of amphibian species 🙁 hate them. But it would be hard to grow the amount of food we consume without them. Hopefully one day we will find a better way

 

[DVMDream]

I wasn't aware of this! I just figured organic was similar to how I grew my own stuff in the backyard!
I hate pesticides. I participated in research with how it affects water runoff and eventually rivers/creeks and the animals in them. It especially affects lots of amphibian species 🙁 hate them. But it would be hard to grow the amount of food we consume without them. Hopefully one day we will find a better way

Yeah, it is the number one thing people believe when they hear "organic". For some reason people think "organic" = "pesticide free". That is not true. Organic farms can use pesticides that occur in nature. For example, rotenone is natural. It has been used in organic farming, was banned for a bit, then the ban was lifted... I don't know if the ban on it exists again or not. It is more toxic than glyphosate which is the synthetic pesticide most people "hate" on. However, glyphosate is less toxic than table salt.

Here is a good table to show toxicity of various substances:

 

[hazelmoo]

Yeah, it is the number one thing people believe when they hear "organic". For some reason people think "organic" = "pesticide free". That is not true. Organic farms can use pesticides that occur in nature. For example, rotenone is natural. It has been used in organic farming, was banned for a bit, then the ban was lifted... I don't know if the ban on it exists again or not. It is more toxic than glyphosate which is the synthetic pesticide most people "hate" on. However, glyphosate is less toxic than table salt.

Here is a good table to show toxicity of various substances:

Thank you!!

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

I giggle at organic as a very expensive label that means very, very little in regards to what ends up on your plate. I knew a farmer who paid for half his farm to be certified organic and said the difference was when he fertilized depended on inspections and the rules for that year. He had to store his pesticides at the non certified facility, which happened to be upwind of the certified facility (which was also surrounded by Monsanto corn fields). His certified and non certified fields got basically the same treatment.

On the other hand there is a company that grows mostly sprouts and young produce that worked with UC Davis (sorry, not a 100% sure this is the right school?) on increasing the microbiome in the soil and using only "natural" pesticide methods: ladybugs, bird calls, netting, different rotation schedules... and did find a significant increase in bioavailable micronutrients in the produce over both organic (which still uses pesticides by the way, just a limited choice like limited antibiotic use in a hospital) and traditional farmed young produce, which had nearly identical profiles despite the very different price points.

There are much better ways to define healthy than a label that can be bought with no inspection for several years at a time and a industry defined meaning.

 

[Caia]

My parasitology prof likes to tell us about the veggies grown in people's gardens and the fun things that can grow inside without the use of pesticides. Kinda scared the **** out of me.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

My parasitology prof likes to tell us about the veggies grown in people's gardens and the fun things that can grow inside without the use of pesticides. Kinda scared the **** out of me.

That's why I feel like a bada** when I grow and eat my own greens!

 

[hazelmoo]

My parasitology prof likes to tell us about the veggies grown in people's gardens and the fun things that can grow inside without the use of pesticides. Kinda scared the **** out of me.

Omg please no..
After I was in that class, I was scared to walk barefoot for months because I thought a parasite was going to crawl under my toenail and travel to my brain 🤢

 

[nyanko]

I've just kinda thought of this, but how do vegetarians/vegans that are quite strict for themselves on not using animal products of any kind, feel about feeding cats? I know some will buy vegetarian dog food. Just honestly curious. 🙂

My little sister is a pretty hardcore vegan for like the last 5+ years at least and she feeds her cats regular (actually pretty high meat/protein content) cat food.

 

[Caia]

The day I find worms in my tomatoes, I'm no longer gardening.

 

[Minnerbelle]

The whole organic market is like the biggest scam ever.

What really kills me is all the stupid all natural crap. I face palm when people tell me whatever they're using on their pet is all natural (and therefore better than my recommendations). ****, most deadly toxins are natural. Natural =/= safe. Death is natural. There are so many ways I can kill someone with natural things. "Natural food" does not mean high quality or balanced.

I don't care if it's natural or not-natural if something it is safe and life-saving/therapeutic. Ugh, people.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

There are people who think we have grown so long cohabiting with parasites that our immune system is designed to carry a light load. There is actually some pretty convincing (to me) evidence for it including a decrease in allergies, asthma, and arthritis with certain light worm infections. I'm still not signing up though!

 

[hazelmoo]

All natural raw diet = I know the secrets to life and I love my pets more than everyone else

 

[DVMDream]

The whole organic market is like the biggest scam ever.

What really kills me is all the stupid all natural crap. I face palm when people tell me whatever they're using on their pet is all natural (and therefore better than my recommendations). ****, most deadly toxins are natural. Natural =/= safe. Death is natural. There are so many ways I can kill someone with natural things. "Natural food" does not mean high quality or balanced.

I don't care if it's natural or not-natural if something it is safe and life-saving/therapeutic. Ugh, people.

Carbon Dioxide is all natural too... can we just shove a bag over their head for an extended period of time?

 

[battie]

Natural =/= safe.

I don't care if it's natural or not-natural if something it is safe and life-saving/therapeutic. Ugh, people.

Thank you!! My biggest pet peeve when talking to people who think cancer research is a scam and say that we already have a cure for cancer through plants. I want to say, "Bro, where do you think we get the basis for most of our medicines?" Just because something is "unnatural" doesn't mean it won't kill a specific strain of cancer!!!

 

[hazelmoo]

Thank you!! My biggest pet peeve when talking to people who think cancer research is a scam and say that we already have a cure for cancer through plants. I want to say, "Bro, where do you think we get the basis for most of our medicines?" Just because something is "unnatural" doesn't mean it won't kill a specific strain of cancer!!!

My grandmas crazy husband (her 6th husband) literally tried to cure their lab's stage 4 lung cancer with marijuana. Made her even more sick (obviously). Then, he told me how furious he was with the vet for not giving her hydrogen peroxide IV because he read a study in some BS propaganda magazine about how it kills cancer cells. There's no use trying to explain things to crazies.. He also thinks the government communicates with aliens and that President Obama is going to put us all in concentration camps...

 

[WildZoo]

There are people who think we have grown so long cohabiting with parasites that our immune system is designed to carry a light load. There is actually some pretty convincing (to me) evidence for it including a decrease in allergies, asthma, and arthritis with certain light worm infections. I'm still not signing up though!

We talked about this in my immunology class. Those eosinophils get bored when they don't have any fun parasites to play with 😉

 

[missdarjeeling]

Once had a client come in with a dog who had diarrhea. I was just doing a simple history and asked about diet, and he said that the dog was on special all natural food with organic chicken and kale in it "so that can't be the problem." I don't really care if someone's feeding something like that, but it's as if some people expect these diets to guarantee that their pet will never get sick, ever, in any way.

We have a regular client who is one of those wonderful clients you wish you could clone. She even works in the biological field and is very knowledgeable. Her German shepherd has a sensitive GI tract and easily gets diarrhea. Owner had to get a pet and farm sitter while she was away for a few days, and doggy started getting a little bit of loose stool, so the sitter gave her a bunch of raw chicken because "raw natural stuff helps them get over these things." Dog ended up having to be hospitalized for HGE, which, as far as I understand, is an "all natural" illness, for what it's worth. Owner was very unhappy with what the sitter did. Face + palm.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

n, he told me how furious he was with the vet for not giving her hydrogen peroxide IV because he read a study in some BS propaganda magazine about how it kills cancer cells

Ooh, I read about this... it's not hydrogen peroxide, it's some weird super water... extra oxygen, I think? So not quite H2O but not HO either. It was something about the break down of free radicals and stabilization of cell walls and all sorts of other magic unicorn fart stuff.
The article sounded pretty bogus to me, but the local hospitals all have water coolers with the drinking water in it and a link to some research study on the front. All I've seen at the vet clinic have been wound care products. I've not heard of anything IV.
Oh, and they work by promoting normal cell growth and inhibiting bacterial growth, so I don't know about cancer either.

 

[hazelmoo]

Ooh, I read about this... it's not hydrogen peroxide, it's some weird super water... extra oxygen, I think? So not quite H2O but not HO either. It was something about the break down of free radicals and stabilization of cell walls and all sorts of other magic unicorn fart stuff.
The article sounded pretty bogus to me, but the local hospitals all have water coolers with the drinking water in it and a link to some research study on the front. All I've seen at the vet clinic have been wound care products. I've not heard of anything IV.
Oh, and they work by promoting normal cell growth and inhibiting bacterial growth, so I don't know about cancer either.

That is interesting! I mean, I am sure that if you put cancer cells in a petri dish with hydrogen peroxide it would kill the cells. It literally bursts cells. We use it to get blood out of our scrubs (works like magic) because it bursts them all and they disappear. If we gave it IV, it would be extremely painful and would probably kill her because of this. He was like "well she is going to die anyways, it's worth a try"... No. Just no.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

Yeah, looking it up, all I see is bogus claims. I might have to visit the hospital to get the link...

 

[twelvetigers]

Speaking of food - had an RN/nutritionist question me heavily (as I was trying to leave) about the urinary diet I wanted to put her dog on. Like what actually dissolves the stones, and it makes them drink more by having salt, surely that isn't good, and what kind of food has pork by-product anyway? I didn't have great answers so now I get to spend tomorrow looking up papers.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

Speaking of food - had an RN/nutritionist question me heavily (as I was trying to leave) about the urinary diet I wanted to put her dog on. Like what actually dissolves the stones, and it makes them drink more by having salt, surely that isn't good, and what kind of food has pork by-product anyway? I didn't have great answers so now I get to spend tomorrow looking up papers.

Oh call the Hills nutrition consult guys! The number is on the vet diet order forms, their website... lots of places. They will fax you all your answers. They will also look at crystal type and any other health history and give you a specific diet recommendation including amount. So if your patient can't handle increased salt, they will help with that.
And it's free if you order Hills diets (or was...)
Royal Canin and Eukanuba used to have similar services but I can't swear they still do. It's been awhile since I've called any of them.

 

[WildZoo]

Speaking of food - had an RN/nutritionist question me heavily (as I was trying to leave) about the urinary diet I wanted to put her dog on. Like what actually dissolves the stones, and it makes them drink more by having salt, surely that isn't good, and what kind of food has pork by-product anyway? I didn't have great answers so now I get to spend tomorrow looking up papers.

We had a lunch and learn with a Royal Canin rep today so I got to learn aaaaallllll about that stuff.

 

[deleted498041]

Speaking of food - had an RN/nutritionist question me heavily (as I was trying to leave) about the urinary diet I wanted to put her dog on. Like what actually dissolves the stones, and it makes them drink more by having salt, surely that isn't good, and what kind of food has pork by-product anyway? I didn't have great answers so now I get to spend tomorrow looking up papers.

I thought the dissolution of the stones had to do with the relative alkalinity/acidity of the diet? I think the c/d multicare diet is more neutral now though and doesn't affect the pH of the urine as much.

 

[deleted498041]

Oh call the Hills nutrition consult guys! The number is on the vet diet order forms, their website... lots of places. They will fax you all your answers. They will also look at crystal type and any other health history and give you a specific diet recommendation including amount. So if your patient can't handle increased salt, they will help with that.
And it's free if you order Hills diets (or was...)
Royal Canin and Eukanuba used to have similar services but I can't swear they still do. It's been awhile since I've called any of them.

I called them yesterday. Be prepared to be on hold for about 30 minutes. They take down your phone number to call you back if the line is disconnected, but they won't actually call you back 🙁
Also, if you have a question about testing their food because your patients get sick after starting a new bag, they won't test it after you've opened it. Sad.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

I called them yesterday. Be prepared to be on hold for about 30 minutes. They take down your phone number to call you back if the line is disconnected, but they won't actually call you back 🙁
Also, if you have a question about testing their food because your patients get sick after starting a new bag, they won't test it after you've opened it. Sad.

Woof. That was not my experience at all. I sent in 2 cups from a bag and while the results took a few weeks, I got them and we just sent in because the bag smelled weird once we got 1/3 into it and the dog started refusing it.

I think I was on hold like 10-15 minutes, but they called back 30 minutes later and spent 45 minutes on the phone consulting about 2 sibling schnauzers with congenital heart defects and one with known struvites and a repeat cat blockage with odd crystals and urine pH. I've done a couple other calls with them, but nothing remarkable, good or bad happened.

 

[LetItSnow]

It took about a year for me to be completely normal without it, and I still have to take iron pills when I'm on my period!

Or, put differently, your diet is deficient.

 

[deleted498041]

Woof. That was not my experience at all. I sent in 2 cups from a bag and while the results took a few weeks, I got them and we just sent in because the bag smelled weird once we got 1/3 into it and the dog started refusing it.

I think I was on hold like 10-15 minutes, but they called back 30 minutes later and spent 45 minutes on the phone consulting about 2 sibling schnauzers with congenital heart defects and one with known struvites and a repeat cat blockage with odd crystals and urine pH. I've done a couple other calls with them, but nothing remarkable, good or bad happened.

How long ago did you send in the bag of food? Not sure if the not-taking-it-when-already-opened is a new thing or not for them. I was going to contact our Hill's rep to ask about it because it seems rather strange. Especially considering it just means that people with issues they want to chase up will send the food to the state lab instead. Seems like Hill's (or any dog food company) would prefer to handle that internally.

 

[LetItSnow]

It's grown without help... Naturally. Like nature

Newsflash: Nature doesn't have an 'intent'.

I don't take the 'ethical' vegans (etc.) too seriously. They mostly walk around with their noses in the air about what awesome people they are while typing away on their (practically) slave-manufactured iphone. Seems like pretty select ethics. If someone wants to be vegan because they feel it's nutritionally superior for them - more power to them. The second they go from that to getting snooty over ethics and trying to make me feel bad because I like to eat beef, pork, chicken, fish, and a few other animal types ... Meh, no longer worth my time.

My cat endorses this post. And says "go meat or go home."

 

[LetItSnow]

The whole organic market is like the biggest scam ever.

What really kills me is all the stupid all natural crap. I face palm when people tell me whatever they're using on their pet is all natural (and therefore better than my recommendations). ****, most deadly toxins are natural. Natural =/= safe. Death is natural. There are so many ways I can kill someone with natural things. "Natural food" does not mean high quality or balanced.

I don't care if it's natural or not-natural if something it is safe and life-saving/therapeutic. Ugh, people.

But organic foods don't have CHEMICALS in them!

 

[Trilt]

I don't believe farm animals to be "suffering".

And I am aware that family farm doesn't say anything about their welfare standards, just as factory farm says nothing about their welfare standards. But it is the perpetuation that "factory farming" is bad and "family farming" is good, when, in reality, neither states anything about welfare.

Sorry - ran off to the movies. We may have to agree to disagree, but I feel like the animals that die in production that are considered "acceptable losses" are absolutely suffering before they die. I also don't think there is a particularly good way to transport animals the necessary long distances without some suffering, and while I think many slaughter facilities have done great things (<3 Temple Grandin!) there is still lots of stress there. All this, imo, is especially egregious in poultry production vs most mammals.

And I'm not saying that huge steps haven't been made, or that vets don't do a huge boon to the industry in maintaining standards - I just personally find it very uncomfortable to go from treating a pet for thousands of dollars to eating a chicken whose entire life I can buy for a couple bucks by the checkout line. So I don't cook meat, minimize my cheese/eggs consumption, and try not to eat very much meat from other sources. That's where I'm comfortable in life, and if people ask about my veggie choices, I say exactly what I just said and usually leave it at that.

 

[hazelmoo]

Newsflash: Nature doesn't have an 'intent'.

I don't take the 'ethical' vegans (etc.) too seriously. They mostly walk around with their noses in the air about what awesome people they are while typing away on their (practically) slave-manufactured iphone. Seems like pretty select ethics. If someone wants to be vegan because they feel it's nutritionally superior for them - more power to them. The second they go from that to getting snooty over ethics and trying to make me feel bad because I like to eat beef, pork, chicken, fish, and a few other animal types ... Meh, no longer worth my time.

My cat endorses this post. And says "go meat or go home."

I disagree about nature having intent. Obviously not conscious intent, but evolutionary biology is an amazing thing.

I wouldn't not take people seriously for having different views than me (that sounds more snooty than anything). I also don't think I've been snooty at all, nor have I tried to make people feel bad. I'm a vegetarian for ethical reasons. Some people do it for health. Some people eat bugs, some eat dogs, some eat cows, good for them.

I try to be well rounded with my ethics and I do a pretty damn good job, but I don't need to prove that to anyone. Everyone lives how they live and I'm proud of the life I live because it's right for me!