RANT HERE thread

[strider144]

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Your comment made me think about everything we do in anatomy, which got me thinking about having to skin a human’s face and I think I’m gonna go throw up now.

Here's the thing: I come home to a cat every day and I have to be able to look her in the eye. I don't come home to a human every day (4ever alone yayyyyy). It's way creepier to cut something apart and then go home and give a similar beast pets and kisses and treats.

woo I'm saying horrible things today

 

[cdo96]

Although also you guys must have some huge cadavers, and that's pretty freaky. They have strict height and weight limits for human cadavers for ease of handling and storage, so my cadaver is unlikely to be all that much bigger than me.

Ever since we started large animal anatomy, I’ve been wondering how they store & transport humans. Personally I’m really hoping it’s a different setup.

 

[vetmedhead]

Ever since we started large animal anatomy, I’ve been wondering how they store & transport humans. Personally I’m really hoping it’s a different setup.

They don't hang them from hooks or trolley rails, if that's what you're wondering

 

[strider144]

They don't hang them from hooks or trolley rails, if that's what you're wondering

Yes this.

 

[cdo96]

They don't hang them from hooks or trolley rails, if that's what you're wondering

That’s exactly what I’m wondering. Do they just put them in bags and carry them to the freezer? We put all our dogs in individual baggies and carried them to the freezer on a shelf. I feel like a human would be heavy to do that with

 

[Skimble]

That’s exactly what I’m wondering. Do they just put them in bags and carry them to the freezer? We put all our dogs in individual baggies and carried them to the freezer on a shelf. I feel like a human would be heavy to do that with

We left our dogs on the table covered in plastic. From what I could tell, that is also what they did with the human cadavers.

 

[WildZoo]

We had carts for our dogs and then would gently lift and lower them into giant formalin tubs in the freezer

...many of our dogs were named Jack for this reason

 

[strider144]

They get stored on in bags on racks of trays or on special tables. I think it used to be more common to have tanks for them in between sessions but now I think the preservatives used make it so that this isn't necessary, though they still make immersion tables. Sometimes there are tables with a hood. But no matter what, they're stored in a horizontal position. None of that hanging stuff for us!

 

[cdo96]

We left our dogs on the table covered in plastic. From what I could tell, that is also what they did with the human cadavers.

Interesting!

We had carts for our dogs and then would gently lift and lower them into giant formalin tubs in the freezer

...many of our dogs were named Jack for this reason

Also very interesting!! It’s weird seeing how all these schools do things!

 

[cdo96]

I immediately regret looking up human anatomy lab pictures. I was okay, but one got me pretty bad. (It’s in spoilers below. It’s not like genitalia or anything like that)

Spoiler: Open At Your Own Risk- SFW

 

[DVMDream]

@kaydubs & @DVMDream - Can I ask what makes you want to quit? Most of the vets that I have worked with have said that you should extensively research where you apply, tour, and pay attention to the body language of those working. I'm curious if you both are unhappy because the job is not what it was described as or some other reason.

Feel free to PM me. 🙂

 

[vetmedhead]

I did a cat during my post-bacc. My anatomy lab doesn't actually start until near the end of first year, but I think I will prefer the human, because the human died naturally and chose to be there and I don't know from whence the cats came. I had a really hard time anytime I was dealing with skin and fur. Once it was all muscle and fascia and organs, I was ok. The fur was very very not ok.

During med school interviews, you typically tour the anatomy lab. When I toured at my school, there were some people working with a prof to identify various things on the inside of the skull. About half of the interviewees kept their eyes glued on the tour guide, taking care not to look to the side, while the rest of us tried to look like we were engaged as we stared in rapt attention at the anatomy lesson instead.

Although also you guys must have some huge cadavers, and that's pretty freaky. They have strict height and weight limits for human cadavers for ease of handling and storage, so my cadaver is unlikely to be all that much bigger than me.

The big cadavers freak me out too, but only because I have a lot of classmates who are very confident in putting their heads underneath them to look at some random part and it freaks me out because they've definitely fallen off the tracks before (our horse fell off the track last semester, in fact). We're not allowed to move them without hardhats on (though I don't entirely know how hardhats protect against a crushed pelvis if it falls on you) and you have to have at least two people in the lab to handle them at all times. It's like moving any other large object, get some extra people and be safe/mindful about it and you should be fine.

What is the height/weight limit for human cadavers, though? Our dogs are hardly that big (though some are larger dogs and will definitely need some help with moving them around) and the horses/cows, while definitely larger than a person, also have some size limits so it's safe to put them on the tracks. We don't really hang up huge 2000 lb beef steers or anything like that, it's simply not safe. We get fresh limbs to dissect on occasion as well, but those are usually in the 50 lb range even for large animals since they tend to center most of their mass in the torso/abdomen. Overall I don't know that we have much trouble with moving things around - if it's too large it'll often be cut down into something smaller and more manageable.

As for the animals choosing or not choosing to be there, that can be a struggle for some people. Our faculty try very hard to use animals that were euthanized for a different reason than for the dissections themselves (protracted illness, trauma, too aggressive to be adopted out, etc.) and the animals are donated to our program for the purpose of training people who will go on someday to treat and care for other animals using the knowledge they learned off the ones that they had the opportunity to use. The concept as a whole is that we are providing these animals a second life through teaching, the opportunity to provide education and context that simply cannot be learned from a textbook. While our animals cannot decide whether to be used by us, their owners and caretakers can make that decision. We will often have clients at the teaching hospital and clients of at-home euthanasia services in the city choose to donate their animals to us because the thought of their animal helping to advance the learning of the people who will care for others like it is a reassuring and affirming feeling for them.

Unfortunately, there are times when purchasing an animal to euthanize for dissection or purchasing animals from companies that explicitly euthanize animals for educational purposes is unavoidable. I will say that our faculty are always very clear about the intended use for the animal (they're definitely not telling anyone their horse is going to go live in the pasture or something - they are upfront about the intention from the getgo) and they are very clear with everyone about how the animals are sourced, treated, and prepared. Usually if they have to purchase large animals (generally done if there are no suitably sized animals that have been donated - remember above that animals that are too large are simply unsafe to use whole) they will buy the worst looking ones at auction (extremely lame, sick, etc.) and humanely euthanize them and use them to teach anywhere from 100 - 200 students for the single animal. Overall it's a very judicious process with a lot of forethought involved and they do their best to obtain these animals in a way that is thoughtful and considerate to the life of the animal.

Here's the thing: I come home to a cat every day and I have to be able to look her in the eye. I don't come home to a human every day (4ever alone yayyyyy). It's way creepier to cut something apart and then go home and give a similar beast pets and kisses and treats.

woo I'm saying horrible things today

Amusingly my cat loved it when I had anatomy. The smells were extremely... interesting to him. I was also quite popular with dogs that I met while I was on my way home from lab, too.

 

[vetmedhead]

That’s exactly what I’m wondering. Do they just put them in bags and carry them to the freezer? We put all our dogs in individual baggies and carried them to the freezer on a shelf. I feel like a human would be heavy to do that with

I don't know how they store them in between uses, but the cadavers here are in body bags when they're moved and the human anatomy folks here will generally move them around on gurneys. Human cadaver use is highly regulated so there are a lot of rules and procedures to follow and I'm certain storage and movement regulations exist.

We had carts for our dogs and then would gently lift and lower them into giant formalin tubs in the freezer

...many of our dogs were named Jack for this reason

Ew, formalin tubs. Our professors embalmed our dogs themselves and aside from needing to spray them down when we used them, giant formalin containers were thankfully not necessary. I can't say the same for brains this semester, but at least those containers are teeny.

 

[WildZoo]

Ew, formalin tubs. Our professors embalmed our dogs themselves and aside from needing to spray them down when we used them, giant formalin containers were thankfully not necessary. I can't say the same for brains this semester, but at least those containers are teeny.

Yeah I left that task to other group members because I'm short and those things were above waist level for me...not the best angle for trying to pull a 40 pound dog out

 

[cdo96]

Yeah I left that task to other group members because I'm short and those things were above waist level for me...not the best angle for trying to pull a 40 pound dog out

I’m sorry but I just imagined Dubz leaning over, trying to pull a dog out of the tub, and just falling in.

 

[WildZoo]

I’m sorry but I just imagined Dubz leaning over, trying to pull a dog out of the tub, and just falling in.

I imagined that exact scenario many times

 

[cdo96]

I imagined that exact scenario many times

 

[strider144]

What is the height/weight limit for human cadavers, though? Our dogs are hardly that big (though some are larger dogs and will definitely need some help with moving them around) and the horses/cows, while definitely larger than a person, also have some size limits so it's safe to put them on the tracks. We don't really hang up huge 2000 lb beef steers or anything like that, it's simply not safe. We get fresh limbs to dissect on occasion as well, but those are usually in the 50 lb range even for large animals since they tend to center most of their mass in the torso/abdomen. Overall I don't know that we have much trouble with moving things around - if it's too large it'll often be cut down into something smaller and more manageable.

It varies by school, but height maxes out at 6' - 6'4", depending. Weight has to be in proportion to height and no greater than 200 pounds for people at the very top of the height scale. They really prefer donations in the 5-foot-something range. We can't cut things down to more manageable sizes - you dissect the limb in situ, because people.

If you're outside that range or are missing some of your original parts but you really want to contribute to science, there's always the body farm.

 

[vetmedhead]

It varies by school, but height maxes out at 6' - 6'4", depending. Weight has to be in proportion to height and no greater than 200 pounds for people at the very top of the height scale. They really prefer donations in the 5-foot-something range. We can't cut things down to more manageable sizes - you dissect the limb in situ, because people.

If you're outside that range or are missing some of your original parts but you really want to contribute to science, there's always the body farm.

I want to donate my body to physics but the body farm is a close second

 

[supershorty]

Ugh. Sorry, SS. Buy you a drink on the 15th?

Totally just looked back and realized I didn't reply to this (sorry!). I'd definitely be up for that!

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

I wish you could leave instructions that state students can chop you apart to make their lives easier haha. I would 100% sign that.

I signed up for organ donation in the event I die with viable organs. If I don't, though, I think I would want to either be donated to a med school or donated to the guy that does those BodyWorks exhibits. (PS if you haven't been to BodyWorks you are missing out--they even have an animal version which is just as cool!)

 

[SkiOtter]

I wish you could leave instructions that state students can chop you apart to make their lives easier haha. I would 100% sign that.

I signed up for organ donation in the event I die with viable organs. If I don't, though, I think I would want to either be donated to a med school or donated to the guy that does those BodyWorks exhibits. (PS if you haven't been to BodyWorks you are missing out--they even have an animal version which is just as cool!)

Pretty sure you can write it into your will. My grandma donated her body to science.

 

[WildZoo]

It varies by school, but height maxes out at 6' - 6'4", depending. Weight has to be in proportion to height and no greater than 200 pounds for people at the very top of the height scale. They really prefer donations in the 5-foot-something range. We can't cut things down to more manageable sizes - you dissect the limb in situ, because people.

If you're outside that range or are missing some of your original parts but you really want to contribute to science, there's always the body farm.

Well...I am 5 feet tall so...

 

[PrincessButterCup]

We're not allowed to move them without hardhats on (though I don't entirely know how hardhats protect against a crushed pelvis if it falls on you) and you have to have at least two people in the lab to handle them at all times. It's like moving any other large object, get some extra people and be safe/mindf

I'm laughing because we have no such rules here, and I'm often the one moving horses and huge cows around

As far as human cadavers . . . They actually have a really similar hoist set-up to use for the heavier bodies, at least in some labs.

 

[LetItSnow]

I left my first job because after a time, I had issues with the standard of care and the way things were being done/run.

It's tough to "extensively research" a private practice GP job. You interview, tour and sometimes get to tag along to appointments. I think it's tough to appreciate or pick up on the little things that might bother you over time. Not saying don't make every effort to feel a place out, but it's easier said than done as a snapshot in time.

So true. The whole 'interview/tour/etc' process is like a sensitive but not specific test. It can easily rule a place out, but it can never entirely rule it in. 🙂

 

[LetItSnow]

That’s exactly what I’m wondering. Do they just put them in bags and carry them to the freezer? We put all our dogs in individual baggies and carried them to the freezer on a shelf. I feel like a human would be heavy to do that with

Dunno how it's done nowadays (any MD students around?) but when I did human dissection our cadavers were just kept in these formaldehyde 'tables'. The platform on which the body was worked on could be lowered back into the liquid and stored, then you'd crank it back up to work on it some more. Sorta a dissection table and storage unit all in one.

 

[LetItSnow]

Totally just looked back and realized I didn't reply to this (sorry!). I'd definitely be up for that!

Maybe Stout's?

Did I ask - are you going on the spring SIRVS trip? I'm teaching on the first half.

 

[DVMDream]

I left my first job because after a time, I had issues with the standard of care and the way things were being done/run.

It's tough to "extensively research" a private practice GP job. You interview, tour and sometimes get to tag along to appointments. I think it's tough to appreciate or pick up on the little things that might bother you over time. Not saying don't make every effort to feel a place out, but it's easier said than done as a snapshot in time.

Yeah and "body language" isn't something that is necessarily reliable when everyone else is walking around working, concentrated and busy. You try to get a feel for how people may or may not be liking the job but that's really easier said than done.

Also, you can't take into account things that might change between when you interview and start working.

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

Pretty sure you can write it into your will. My grandma donated her body to science.

I highly doubt schools would change their regulations around handling bodies because in my will I specified I was chill with students chopping me apart to make their lives easier.

 

[supershorty]

Maybe Stout's?

Did I ask - are you going on the spring SIRVS trip? I'm teaching on the first half.

Stout's sounds great to me!

You did ask, I hadn't answered because I wasn't sure yet. I'm not going - I'm going to go home and see my folks for the week. I go home about once a year and lately am thinking that getting out of here for a while and taking a break from everything might be a really good choice for my mental health.

 

[vetmedhead]

Dunno how it's done nowadays (any MD students around?) but when I did human dissection our cadavers were just kept in these formaldehyde 'tables'. The platform on which the body was worked on could be lowered back into the liquid and stored, then you'd crank it back up to work on it some more. Sorta a dissection table and storage unit all in one.

All of these formaldehyde table descriptions are really making me think of

I highly doubt schools would change their regulations around handling bodies because in my will I specified I was chill with students chopping me apart to make their lives easier.

The state anatomic board would have to change their rules too

 

[vetmedhead]

I'm laughing because we have no such rules here, and I'm often the one moving horses and huge cows around

As far as human cadavers . . . They actually have a really similar hoist set-up to use for the heavier bodies, at least in some labs.

Admittedly the necropsy lab here is probably different and modern enough that you don't need all of the extra safety precautions we have to use in anatomy lab. The rail system in our anatomy lab is approximately a zillion years old and it scares me because it seems to have been placed by someone in love with sharp corners, lol

 

[kaydubs]

All of these formaldehyde table descriptions are really making me think of

The state anatomic board would have to change their rules too

Oh yes

 

[SkiOtter]

I highly doubt schools would change their regulations around handling bodies because in my will I specified I was chill with students chopping me apart to make their lives easier.

The state anatomic board would have to change their rules too

Ahhh
Yeah I read it more as you were looking for something to sign up on that would be as easy as signing up as an organ donor that’d allow your body to be donated

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

Ahhh
Yeah I read it more as you were looking for something to sign up on that would be as easy as signing up as an organ donor that’d allow your body to be donated

Gotcha haha.

I know what I want to do, just haven’t signed up yet. I’m optimistically hoping I have some time before that decision matters since I generally like being alive and would prefer to stay that way.

 

[pp9]

We left our dogs on the table covered in plastic. From what I could tell, that is also what they did with the human cadavers.

We also do this, more or less. We have giant bags that the dogs go into, and they either stayed out or were carried to the cooler depending on if someone in the group was coming in later or not. Immersion tanks would have been nice, most of our tissues resembled jerky even at the end of the first quarter, no matter how much preservative we sprayed on them.

Our hoses and cows were more tiny, so they had wheeled rig things. They were permanently hooked and hanging from a bar on wheels, more or less. Our anatomy lab has no tracks.

 

[Vombatidae]

@LetItSnow & others - Really dumb question - I can't tell if all of you are veterinarians or if some went to (human) med school. If it is the latter, did you seriously have to do autopsies in vet school? I'm not sure that I could stomach that...

 

[Ashgirl]

@LetItSnow & others - Really dumb question - I can't tell if all of you are veterinarians or if some went to (human) med school. If it is the latter, did you seriously have to do autopsies in vet school? I'm not sure that I could stomach that...

Are you asking if you do necropsies (like autospies, just for animals) in vet school? The answer is very much yes, I believe pathology is a core rotation for almost all (if not all), schools. You might get a glance of it in pathology class by looking at preserved pathology specimens, but then when you enter clinics, you assist with necropsies. We had several a day so we split into groups, took a list of what we had to get tissue wise (brain, lymph nodes, organs, sciatic nerve, etc etc). Then everyone donned aprons, gloves, masks, and knives and went to work.

There are ways to get around the smell if that bothers you, and I found it similar to watching surgeries- The more experience, the less it bothers you. I always mentally thanked the animal and saw it as an opportunity to help future pets with that same problem, so with that mindset, the mental side of necropsies didn't bother me.

 

[Vombatidae]

@Ashgirl - Sorry for the confusion. No, I'm asking if you had to "dissect" humans in vet school. I was trying to follow the conversation above and thought that is what they were indicating. Humans would really be difficult for me, animals are not a problem. I've run dissections with my students and that doesn't bother me, but if I had to do all of that with a human it would be incredibly challenging.

 

[Ashgirl]

@Ashgirl - Sorry for the confusion. No, I'm asking if you had to "dissect" humans in vet school. I was trying to follow the conversation above and thought that is what they were indicating. Humans would really be difficult for me, animals are not a problem. I've run dissections with my students and that doesn't bother me, but if I had to do all of that with a human it would be incredibly challenging.

Oh gotcha! No, dissecting humans are not a thing in vet school.

 

[Skimble]

Are you asking if you do necropsies (like autospies, just for animals) in vet school? The answer is very much yes, I believe pathology is a core rotation for almost all (if not all), schools. You might get a glance of it in pathology class by looking at preserved pathology specimens, but then when you enter clinics, you assist with necropsies. We had several a day so we split into groups, took a list of what we had to get tissue wise (brain, lymph nodes, organs, sciatic nerve, etc etc). Then everyone donned aprons, gloves, masks, and knives and went to work.

There are ways to get around the smell if that bothers you, and I found it similar to watching surgeries- The more experience, the less it bothers you. I always mentally thanked the animal and saw it as an opportunity to help future pets with that same problem, so with that mindset, the mental side of necropsies didn't bother me.

I believe she was referencing this post from LIS. Honestly, I'm not sure I want to know why he was dissecting humans...

Dunno how it's done nowadays (any MD students around?) but when I did human dissection our cadavers were just kept in these formaldehyde 'tables'. The platform on which the body was worked on could be lowered back into the liquid and stored, then you'd crank it back up to work on it some more. Sorta a dissection table and storage unit all in one.

 

[Vombatidae]

Thank God. That thought never occurred to me and then I got really weirded out.

 

[strider144]

@LetItSnow & others - Really dumb question - I can't tell if all of you are veterinarians or if some went to (human) med school. If it is the latter, did you seriously have to do autopsies in vet school? I'm not sure that I could stomach that...

I’m a human med student, so I will take the person and leave the animals for you to disassemble

 

[Vombatidae]

@strider144 - aww yisss

 

[LyraGardenia]

We're not allowed to move them without hardhats on (though I don't entirely know how hardhats protect against a crushed pelvis if it falls on you) and you have to have at least two people in the lab to handle them at all times.

This is interesting to me too, our rails were pretty sketchy and had probably been there since the building was built in the '70s, but the only rule I remember is we were told to stand on the side of the animal so that if it did fall off the track, it would fall away from us. Thankfully the anatomy lab has since been remodeled, I haven't seen the new rail system in action but it certainly looks a lot better.

Ew, formalin tubs. Our professors embalmed our dogs themselves and aside from needing to spray them down when we used them, giant formalin containers were thankfully not necessary.

We didn't even spray our cadavers, just put them back in the bags and into the cooler. The dogs definitely got pretty dried out towards the end, but thankfully we did the head last, so those weren't too bad since we didn't skin them until we got to that unit. For large animal we had weekly quizzes instead of big lab practicals, so we were able to discard portions of those pretty quickly after we had learned them, and things stayed fresher for the most part.

If you're outside that range or are missing some of your original parts but you really want to contribute to science, there's always the body farm.

... I'd never heard of this before so I Googled it, and I'm both intrigued and a little creeped out.

 

[britzen]

If you're looking for ways your body could contribute to science even if you don't have all your organs, you might scrounge up some ideas from the book Stiff: The Curious Lives of Human Cadavers by Mary Roach. It's an interesting (and entertaining) read. Chapters titles (plus description)

1. A Head is a Terrible Thing to Waste (practice for cosmetic surgeons)
2. Crimes of Anatomy (history of body snatching / dissection)
3. Life After Death (decay & body farms)
4. Dead Man Driving (cadavers as crash test dummies)
5. Beyond the Black Box (using cadavers in airplane crash investigations)
6. The Cadaver Who Joined the Army (Army weapons testing)
7. Holy Cadaver (crucifixion experiments)
8. How to Know if You're Dead (beating heart cadavers, live burials, scientific tests to see if there's a soul)
9. Just a Head (decapitation & human head transplant)
10. Eat Me (cannibalism for medicinal purposes)
11. Out of the Fire, Into the Compost Bin (alternatives to tradition burial / cremation)
12. Remains of the Author (will she or won't she?)

 

[LetItSnow]

@LetItSnow & others - Really dumb question - I can't tell if all of you are veterinarians or if some went to (human) med school. If it is the latter, did you seriously have to do autopsies in vet school? I'm not sure that I could stomach that...

Ha - no. The others who answered are MD students (or pre-MD students). I did human dissection in undergrad anatomy many, many years ago.

Vet students don't do human dissection, no. 🙂 Vet students do animal dissection (and, we did prosection as well - I presume many vet schools also do this). MD students do human dissection (and maybe prosection?).

An autopsy is a specific procedure to identify a disease etiology / cause of death. It's not done for teaching students anatomy. Also, no need for quotes in human "dissection" - it really is just called human dissection. Dissection is dissection, regardless of the subject involved.

Vet students observe (and perform) necropsies (the closest we have to a human autopsy); usually as a 4th-yr rotation. I don't know how much exposure MD students have to autopsies.

 

[WildZoo]

... I'd never heard of this before so I Googled it, and I'm both intrigued and a little creeped out.

There's a body farm right near some of the vet school buildings here!

 

[pp9]

If you're looking for ways your body could contribute to science even if you don't have all your organs, you might scrounge up some ideas from the book Stiff: The Curious Lives of Human Cadavers by Mary Roach. It's an interesting (and entertaining) read.

+1. Couldn't put this book down.

 

[pp9]

lol so apparently it's my job to handle what would be a horrendously uncomfortable convo with someone.

Friend approached me with 'You are pretty good with words and people are comfortable around you, yada yada, will you please talk to ____ about ____?"

I mean, this situation probably does need to be addressed, but why me? I appreciate that some people may look to me as a person who can handle these situations diplomatically, but we have a counselor on staff who is probably better equipped...