SMP or Informal Post-bacc. GPA 2.8/3.1, DAT 20

[Nik_Died]

Hey everybody! First I want to say I really appreciate anytime you put in to reading/ replying to my post. Thank you in advance. I'm not asking about my chances per se, just looking for advice: SMP or informal local Postbacc. (BTW i’ve read EVERYTHING about my position here on SDN), but here’s a little bit about my application this year:

HERE IS MY DENTAL APPLICATION INFO:

I’m 24, married and we are expecting a little girl this Fall. I just graduated with a Russian degree and Chemistry minor from the University of Utah. (My GPA is low because I conceptualize topics more than most. I dig deeply and quickly to build a strong ‘big picture’ foundation in any topic before I build on it specifically. I love learning, but this tendency/(strength?) has kept me from testing well in a university that studies for specificities.)

• GPA: 2.9 sGPA/ 3.1 cGPA
• DAT scores: PAT 23/ QR 19/ Reading 21/ Biology 21/ GC 17/ OC 22/ TS 20/ AA 20
• Volunteer Service: Total hrs: 845. They are all legit. (Refugee outreach coordinator, Russian tutoring, Children Mentor, Special Olympic Coach, Homeless shelter Eagle project, Sunday School teacher)
• Shadowing: Total hrs: 280. General Dentists, Oral surgeons.
• Leadership: Total hrs: 1635. All legit. Leadership roles as a religious missionary (leading a group of 20 missionaries etc.), President of Operation Smile club, Coach, Special Olympics, TA for pre-Dental anatomy class, Manager of sort at small summer job.
• Research: Total hrs: 300. I did some research/ assisting under Dr. Rena D’Souza, she is the president of the International Association for Dental Research. Very cool experience researching reversal treatments for cleft lip/palate in-utero along with tooth agenesis.
• LORs: Dr. D’Souza, TA professor, Dentist, Refugee Foundation CEO, Microbiology Professor, Biology Professor.
• Work: Total hrs: 1552. Auto-detailing, EMT, Construction, Hospital Orderly.
• Other/ Hobbies: Total hrs: 2500. Full distance Ironman triathlon. Own a small Auto-Detailing business. Donate plasma. Piano. Violin. Study misc. material/ topics regularly.

MY PLANS?

I am applying this year regardless of what my chances are because I know there’s a slight chance I get in somewhere. But I am planning on not getting in so do you recommend that this Fall I start an SMP in Biomedical Sciences and dominate that (I know I will/can), or do you recommend I just stick around and do an informal Postbacc to try and bring up that same GPA a bit since I only have a Chem minor (fewer science credits). I also plan on getting a job/ volunteering in something dental related this gap year.



ADVICE ASAP PLEASE. THANK YOU!!!!

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[AppalachianDentalBoy]

I'd do a postbacc since they're usually cheaper, but you can't end up getting the same grades this time. Do whatever it takes for a 3.7+.
I think applying in your case makes sense too based on your ECs. You have a super impressive resume, I'm quite jealous. A lot of that sounds like fun too.

 

[Nik_Died]

I'd do a postbacc since they're usually cheaper, but you can't end up getting the same grades this time. Do whatever it takes for a 3.7+.
I think applying in your case makes sense too based on your ECs. You have a super impressive resume, I'm quite jealous. A lot of that sounds like fun too.

Thank you for the response. You may be right! I am proud of my ECs and I have really enjoyed them. The Dean of Admissions at my state D-School recommended an SMP, so I am leaning towards that but still keeping an open mind.

 

[Cthuluhoop]

Thank you for the response. You may be right! I am proud of my ECs and I have really enjoyed them. The Dean of Admissions at my state D-School recommended an SMP, so I am leaning towards that but still keeping an open mind.

Most dental schools are going to recommend you a masters program, especially if they offer one. They get to charge you for a ridiculously expensive masters program, then get to charge you for dental school, a nice double dip for them
I would also do a postbacc and not waste thousands on a masters degree, but up to you.

It seems that the way you study and learn is holding you back academically. That's great you think it's a strength, but it's keeping you from getting the grades you need to get into dental school. Admissions selects students they know are up to the task of completing dental school and they don't want to waste a potential seat on a student they think is not up to the task. What a good GPA and a high DAT score shows them is that student is prepared and has the right habits to succeed.
So really dive in to whichever path you take, you need to show admissions that you can handle heavy course loads and perform well in difficult classes. Change your studying habits and the way you approach learning

 

[TheDentalSchoolCoach]

First of all, an impressive set of accomplishments. Great job!

You science GPA is lower than many who get accepted but I believe the DAT is within range. The best advice would be to do the post-bac to improve your science GPA. Now, Masters are lucrative options as well. Don't discount them especially if they are from good places and can open door outside of dentistry.

That said, post bac might be cheaper and you should aim for at least 3.7 or more. I know you that you are having a child. It'll be tough to focus on studies, especially as a new parent. So, find someone who can help you and family (perhaps your family members can help you in this regard). Put a lot of emphasis on getting good scores in these classes should you decide to do the post bac this fall.

If you find it overwhelming to study while having a kid, you should consider slowing it down. Dental schools will not go anywhere and you will not feel overwhelmed.

 

[Faefly]

You also need to retake the DAT.
Who is Nik by the way, this is a sad name.

 

[Nik_Died]

Thank you very much for the responses! Good thoughts to ponder. I feel like having this kid is making me see the future as more of a reality, which I feel will help me understand just how important my next grades are, be they Masters or not. I appreciate the support!

 

[Nik_Died]

You also need to retake the DAT.
Who is Nik by the way, this is a sad name.

Can you expound? Do you mean I need to retake the DAT to try to baance our my GPA? Do you reccomend I retake it this cycle? I’m just worried that due to being burned out from life right now I might not improve my scores much

 

[Faefly]

Can you expound? Do you mean I need to retake the DAT to try to baance our my GPA? Do you reccomend I retake it this cycle? I’m just worried that due to being burned out from life right now I might not improve my scores much

So, the general rule is if you have high DAT, it might offset a low GPA.
You have a low gpa, but you can improve it with SMP or Master.
As for when to take the DAT, if you start two weeks from now and study 3 hours a day for 3 months, you can take it in three months from now only if you see your scores are better.
I mean you said you gonna apply anyway, right?
Then, why not also retake the dat while you are still in the cycle and update schools with your second attempt.
You are obviously super smart to get 29 in Qr. What you need is more time spent on Gen chem and Orgo and Bio. ( what did you use to prepare for them as review and as practice questions?)
I am sure Master or Smp starts in August or Sep right, then before that you can retake the DAT.
This is 3 months from now.
It should be a breeze because you have already seen the materials.
You'll do better, I am sure of this.
You have a little girl now and you will think there is no way you gonna mess it up this time and you will do better.
I mean, you need to go to the public library every day to avoid being distracted by the newborn baby, but 3-4 hours that are very focused is better than my 10 hours that I spent day-dreaming or on SDN

Don't get me wrong your DAT is good, but I think if you make it better, you will have more chances in the long run.

Best of luck anyway I hope you get in this cycle.

 

[Faefly]

Haha my name is Nik XXXXXXXxx

I'll google you now lol

Just kidding.

 

[Cthuluhoop]

Your DAT, while not bad, isn't outstanding. Typically you want to counterbalance a low GPA, with a high DAT even if you do a masters or post-bacc. That 17 in GC would worry me as well if I were in your shoes. As your science scores are very important scores

I would recommend studying way more than 3 hours a day if you're only going to study for 3 months. I studied on average 7 hours a day for just over 2 months to obtain the scores I got. You seem very smart, you just need to change the way you study and learn

 

[Marcos0789]

Your DAT is in the zone of acceptance. Besides the GC everything is optimal. With a 3.0 you can get accepted but the higher the better. Great EC by the way. Good luck.

 

[taroplush]

Like everyone said, SMP was probably recommended by the admissions office because it’s more lucrative. I wouldn’t recommend it because there’s no guarantee that you’ll do as well as you might expect, even if you apply yourself. I don’t know your science background but by JUST looking at your DAT scores, you may or may not have a hard time. Again, this is just by looking at your TS! (Please don’t take this the wrong way—just trying to sway you from an expensive mistake)

 

[hurryupdec3rd]

The shortest and cheapest route for you to get into dental school is to get your gpa and sgpa above a 3.2 with a postbacc. You can keep that DAT score, it good enough. The key is applying to the right schools. Obviously with a lower stats, most likely you wont get into public schools. So just apply strictly to private schools. You definitely have a chance if you apply strategically.

 

[deleted767916]

Obviously like everyone said do a post-bac or retake DAT. However, your EC are extraordinary and I would try to apply this cycle if u have the money to spend; I legit think you might get into a school that focuses on community service and since you're religious it seems Loma seems perfect for you.

Hey everybody! First I want to say I really appreciate anytime you put in to reading/ replying to my post. Thank you in advance. I'm not asking about my chances per se, just looking for advice: SMP or informal local Postbacc. (BTW i’ve read EVERYTHING about my position here on SDN), but here’s a little bit about my application this year:

HERE IS MY DENTAL APPLICATION INFO:

I’m 24, married and we are expecting a little girl this Fall. I just graduated with a Russian degree and Chemistry minor from the University of Utah. (My GPA is low because I conceptualize topics more than most. I dig deeply and quickly to build a strong ‘big picture’ foundation in any topic before I build on it specifically. I love learning, but this tendency/(strength?) has kept me from testing well in a university that studies for specificities.)

• GPA: 2.9 sGPA/ 3.1 cGPA
• DAT scores: PAT 23/ QR 29/ Reading 21/ Biology 21/ GC 17/ OC 22/ TS 20/ AA 20
• Volunteer Service: Total hrs: 845. They are all legit. (Refugee outreach coordinator, Russian tutoring, Children Mentor, Special Olympic Coach, Homeless shelter Eagle project, Sunday School teacher)
• Shadowing: Total hrs: 280. General Dentists, Oral surgeons.
• Leadership: Total hrs: 1635. All legit. Leadership roles as a religious missionary (leading a group of 20 missionaries etc.), President of Operation Smile club, Coach, Special Olympics, TA for pre-Dental anatomy class, Manager of sort at small summer job.
• Research: Total hrs: 300. I did some research/ assisting under Dr. Rena D’Souza, she is the president of the International Association for Dental Research. Very cool experience researching reversal treatments for cleft lip/palate in-utero along with tooth agenesis.
• LORs: Dr. D’Souza, TA professor, Dentist, Refugee Foundation CEO, Microbiology Professor, Biology Professor.
• Work: Total hrs: 1552. Auto-detailing, EMT, Construction, Hospital Orderly.
• Other/ Hobbies: Total hrs: 2500. Full distance Ironman triathlon. Own a small Auto-Detailing business. Donate plasma. Piano. Violin. Study misc. material/ topics regularly.

MY PLANS?

I am applying this year regardless of what my chances are because I know there’s a slight chance I get in somewhere. But I am planning on not getting in so do you recommend that this Fall I start an SMP in Biomedical Sciences and dominate that (I know I will/can), or do you recommend I just stick around and do an informal Postbacc to try and bring up that same GPA a bit since I only have a Chem minor (fewer science credits). I also plan on getting a job/ volunteering in something dental related this gap year.



ADVICE ASAP PLEASE. THANK YOU!!!!

 

[Nik_Died]

Thank you everybody. Yeah, I can definitely take it again. I'll have to serioiusly consider that.

 

[Nik_Died]

I appreciate the comments! I am going to call around all day the next few days to see what Dental Schools prefer I do (keeping in mind, they might just want to milk my bank account).

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Please allow me to pontificate. An informal post-bacc isn’t going to do much to change your overall GPA because of the amount of credits you’ve already taken, that’s just how math works. Not sure how many credits went towards your sGPA, since you majored in Studies of the Mother Russia, but it might raise your sGPA to a more acceptable level if you don’t have a ton of science credits. That said, if I were on an admissions committee, I’d expect nothing less than an A in repeated classes because this is the second time you have seen the material. Is this how most adcoms think? I don’t know, but it’s how The Hoss thinks. And, it’s going to take more than just a semester’s worth of classes to change my mind.

Doing a masters degree will potentially offer you more of a clean start. That said, you need to do very well. A subpar performance will do you no favors. Also, we’re approaching the middle of May, what are the application timelines for SMP programs? Do you even have time to apply and start this fall?

Here’s what I would do if I were in your shoes. Go ahead and apply this cycle, realizing it’s a long shot. Study for and retake the DAT this summer. You have a below average collegiate performance, so do all you can to offset it with an above average DAT score. Take and/or retake a ton of science classes this coming year. Again, if it’s a retake, there’s no excuse for not getting an A. Update the schools you apply to with your new score and grades. If you get no love this year, prepare to do a masters degree the following year.

I’m also not throwing shade on anyone here, honestly, but students with below average stats tend to get into schools with above average tuition. You might be faced with only acceptance to programs that will leave you pushing $600,000 in debt. You need to really understand what that repayment will feel like, especially since you undoubtedly want to practice in Utah, a VERY saturated location. With that much debt, your monthly loan payment will be $4,500. That’s around $55,000/year for the next two decades! This money will have to come from after tax money, something you young people always forget. You may need to earn more than $70,000/year just for your student loans. How much are general dentists making in Utah? Just make sure you know what you’re getting into. I’d recommend the HPSP, even though I’m pretty salty about the Navy.

Best of luck to you. Hopefully some of this helps.

Big Hoss

 

[knewstance]

I like and agree with what most have said here, but I do have my own views that I see as beneficial.

When you retake the DAT, wait until you've taken more upper-level biology and biochem classes. While that material is not directly on the test, they build on the simple material, forcing you to become a master of them. This will impact your ability to learn and understand the GC/OC/BIO questions rather than just having the base knowledge. You will score much higher this way.

Also, I don't really see the merit in post-baccs due to the same reasoning as Big Hoss. An SMP, while they can be more expensive, they are a much better use of your time. If you decide to not further pursue dentistry, you will still have a master's degree and you will be held in higher regard in whichever field you choose.

+1 for the HPSP pathway. It is hard to justify most schools otherwise.

 

[Nik_Died]

Thank you!

If you get no love this year, prepare to do a masters degree the following year.

Thank you! I have been leaning toward this option of cherry picking upper division science courses this gap year, then possible an SMP the next. I feel like it is the best middle ground for my situation. I can bring my sGPA up to a 3.1 and my cGPA up to a 3.2/3.3. Then after taking these courses, I will retake the DAT next year and hopefully, with more knowledge about the sciences, be able to land a 22/23AA. I really feel like I could do it. Thank you all for the advice. I am very grateful for your help!

 

[byahnoob]

It’s simple you have 2 choices.
1) Masters. If you get a high GPA really no reason to retake the DAT.
2) retake DAT and possibly additional postbax courses

Why waste a year. Just start a masters program and see what happens. Some schools don’t require you to complete the masters program so you can potentially matriculate to dental school before finishing

 

[Nik_Died]

UPDATE: I got accepted to Roseman!!! (I also interviewed at ASDOH). I am so excited and know it will be worth it because it is what I want to do. Thank you to everybody for the advice. I actually took a gamble and haven't taken any more courses or anything since I graduated from my undergrad last summer when I started this post. My application was really strong on every aspect except my grades. Be you and know it is possible with some grinding. Focus on what makes you awesome! Can't wait to start!!

 

[frentist]

UPDATE: I got accepted to Roseman!!! (I also interviewed at ASDOH). I am so excited and know it will be worth it because it is what I want to do. Thank you to everybody for the advice. I actually took a gamble and haven't taken any more courses or anything since I graduated from my undergrad last summer when I started this post. My application was really strong on every aspect except my grades. Be you and know it is possible with some grinding. Focus on what makes you awesome! Can't wait to start!!

hey congrats on your success, thank you for sharing your journey. I am in the application cycle this year and I have similar academic and extracurricular stats as you. I have been fortunate to receive 3 interviews, (2 post December) and I hope to receive an acceptance in april!

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

UPDATE: I got accepted to Roseman!!! (I also interviewed at ASDOH). I am so excited and know it will be worth it because it is what I want to do. Thank you to everybody for the advice. I actually took a gamble and haven't taken any more courses or anything since I graduated from my undergrad last summer when I started this post. My application was really strong on every aspect except my grades. Be you and know it is possible with some grinding. Focus on what makes you awesome! Can't wait to start!!

Congrats. Now start applying for the 3-year HPSP and hope you get it, especially if you have plans of staying in Utah. Managing $500,000 to $600,000 in student loans and working in a saturated market won’t be fun.

Big Hoss

 

[Nik_Died]

I have a different plan of action - not sure I will pursue the HPSP. Putting roots down is more important to me than guaranteeing I get out of debt in 4 3-4 years. But then again, that still may be worth it. I mean its only three years. However I really want to pursue 4 year OMFS. I could do that through the Navy or something but then would have to pay back four years, that's 12 years from now I bring my daughter to my stomping grounds and have her try and put roots down here. Not sure if what I will do. Still trying to weigh these factors. Money is huge, but I am also trying to decide, if I do specialize, then staying in Utah will be easier but my loans will be ~650k. Ridiculous, so I wonder if I might as well use PAYE or something instead of paying it off soon. I need to do more research here.

 

[Nik_Died]

hey congrats on your success, thank you for sharing your journey. I am in the application cycle this year and I have similar academic and extracurricular stats as you. I have been fortunate to receive 3 interviews, (2 post December) and I hope to receive an acceptance in april!

Awesome! Thank you and Good Luck!

 

[frentist]

Awesome! Thank you and Good Luck!

I got into dental school!

 

[batman12345]

Please allow me to pontificate. An informal post-bacc isn’t going to do much to change your overall GPA because of the amount of credits you’ve already taken, that’s just how math works. Not sure how many credits went towards your sGPA, since you majored in Studies of the Mother Russia, but it might raise your sGPA to a more acceptable level if you don’t have a ton of science credits. That said, if I were on an admissions committee, I’d expect nothing less than an A in repeated classes because this is the second time you have seen the material. Is this how most adcoms think? I don’t know, but it’s how The Hoss thinks. And, it’s going to take more than just a semester’s worth of classes to change my mind.

Doing a masters degree will potentially offer you more of a clean start. That said, you need to do very well. A subpar performance will do you no favors. Also, we’re approaching the middle of May, what are the application timelines for SMP programs? Do you even have time to apply and start this fall?

Here’s what I would do if I were in your shoes. Go ahead and apply this cycle, realizing it’s a long shot. Study for and retake the DAT this summer. You have a below average collegiate performance, so do all you can to offset it with an above average DAT score. Take and/or retake a ton of science classes this coming year. Again, if it’s a retake, there’s no excuse for not getting an A. Update the schools you apply to with your new score and grades. If you get no love this year, prepare to do a masters degree the following year.

I’m also not throwing shade on anyone here, honestly, but students with below average stats tend to get into schools with above average tuition. You might be faced with only acceptance to programs that will leave you pushing $600,000 in debt. You need to really understand what that repayment will feel like, especially since you undoubtedly want to practice in Utah, a VERY saturated location. With that much debt, your monthly loan payment will be $4,500. That’s around $55,000/year for the next two decades! This money will have to come from after tax money, something you young people always forget. You may need to earn more than $70,000/year just for your student loans. How much are general dentists making in Utah? Just make sure you know what you’re getting into. I’d recommend the HPSP, even though I’m pretty salty about the Navy.

Best of luck to you. Hopefully some of this helps.

Big Hoss

Or you could pay 1200 a month for 20-25 years (yes and get hit with the tax bomb at the end)

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

However I really want to pursue 4 year OMFS.

That’s gonna drag you away from Utah anyway.

that's 12 years from now I bring my daughter to my stomping grounds and have her try and put roots down here

Between dental school, HPSP payback, and residency I’m looking at 10 years myself. The time absolutely flies! Trust me, I’m almost there. It won’t kill you to have some adventures outside of Utah. And don’t think specializing will make practicing in Utah that much easier. There’s plenty of competition for specialists as well. And what if you don’t end up specializing? Can you make it there as a GP with $600,000+ in student loans? I don’t think you fully grasp the full weight of $600,000+ at 7% interest. You’ll have to earn $55,000/year just to cover your interest to prevent your loans from snowballing. That debt is not just “ridiculous,” as you called it...it’s life altering.

Big Hoss

 

[Nik_Died]

That’s gonna drag you away from Utah anyway.



Between dental school, HPSP payback, and residency I’m looking at 10 years myself. The time absolutely flies! Trust me, I’m almost there. It won’t kill you to have some adventures outside of Utah. And don’t think specializing will make practicing in Utah that much easier. There’s plenty of competition for specialists as well. And what if you don’t end up specializing? Can you make it there as a GP with $600,000+ in student loans? I don’t think you fully grasp the full weight of $600,000+ at 7% interest. You’ll have to earn $55,000/year just to cover your interest to prevent your loans from snowballing. That debt is not just “ridiculous,” as you called it...it’s life altering.

Big Hoss

Thanks man. I really appreciate the advice. Trust me, as a kid (10 years old) would go home from school stressing about how I was going to pay for college one day, get married, pay taxes, earn money... haha I over analyze and think way ahead. When I say I am going to specialize - I am. Either way, I appreciate your ‘warning’ of sorts but your stating nothing that I haven’t thought of many times before. (Btw, I have spent years outside of Utah in my life. Nowhere beats it

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

When I say I am going to specialize - I am.

This can be easier said than done. Just make sure you have a backup plan, should things not go your way or you change your mind. OMS has around a 50% Match rate. This doesn’t include people who didn’t get a single interview.

Dental Match | Statistics of the Match

natmatch.com

Big Hoss

 

[Blueshirts]

This can be easier said than done. Just make sure you have a backup plan, should things not go your way or you change your mind. OMS has around a 50% Match rate. This doesn’t include people who didn’t get a single interview.

Dental Match | Statistics of the Match

natmatch.com

Big Hoss

Nice provided link. Crazy to see that nearly 3500 people are using match every year.

 

[ToothJockey]

When I say I am going to specialize - I am.

Don't take this the wrong way man, but you sound a little cocky when you say you are for sure gonna specialize. OMFS is a tough specialty to match. You're coming into dental school with a 2.9 sGPA and 20 AA. In dental school you will be going up against academic studs with near 4.0 sGPA's and 25 AA's, many of which will be gunning for those same top specialties. For these dudes getting an A- is equivalent to an F lol

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you have what it takes to specialize. It's good to have confidence, but don't be overconfident. Just know that it's far from a 100% sure thing. Good luck on your journey homie

 

[Nik_Died]

For sure. Don’t mean to come off as cocky just very optimistic and never felt so much drive in my life to succeed. Very confident right now. Especially with the school I will be attending. I’ll make this all work out is all I am saying.

 

[KeepingUpWithK]

For sure. Don’t mean to come off as cocky just very optimistic and never felt so much drive in my life to succeed. Very confident right now. Especially with the school I will be attending. I’ll make this all work out is all I am saying.

Let me start of by saying I loved reading this thread. I’m in the same boat as of now but haven’t taken the DAT yet. How long did it take you to study for the DAT? I’m planning on taking July but was advised to do it in September. The school that I’m applying for application cycle ends in December. I’m currently 24 as well and have tons of extracurricular under my belt. I’m glad you made it!

 

[Nik_Died]

Hmm interesting. I was told that applying early can really help my chances of getting accepted. My interviews were all after in January but I still applied the within the first two weeks of the cycle. That is something to consider.
On another note, I studied for about 3-4 months form Jan to April and then took it in early May. It was difficult studying alongside everything else I was doing, but I made it work. DAT Bootcamp was awesome.

 

[KeepingUpWithK]

Hmm interesting. I was told that applying early can really help my chances of getting accepted. My interviews were all after in January but I still applied the within the first two weeks of the cycle. That is something to consider.
On another note, I studied for about 3-4 months form Jan to April and then took it in early May. It was difficult studying alongside everything else I was doing, but I made it work. DAT Bootcamp was awesome.

Yes I’m using that right now and thinking of applying early as well. Thank you for your response and best wishes!

 

[Kurulean]

SMP with 3.5gpa
Every section above 20 required

 

[Nik_Died]

SMP with 3.5gpa
Every section above 20 required

I didn’t need an SMP. Thank goodness. But for some that may be necessary.