SUBSTANCE ABUSE ON APPLICATION..?

[Drez06]

I can see how that came out the way I typed it. PTSD is a chronic disease. What I meant was when PTSD has an acute exacerbation it is inherently different than a drug abuse relapse... as a physician.

Oh definitely!! You’re absolutely right!

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[LadyHalcyon]

I can see how that came out the way I typed it. PTSD is a chronic disease. What I meant was when PTSD has an acute exacerbation it is inherently different than a drug abuse relapse... as a physician.

I will say that when we review essays for psychology interns, we immediately toss out ones where the narrative is "I have ptsd and that is why I will be a great therapist for people with ptsd." We throw them out not necessarily because they have a "weakness", but because their logic is faulty and extremely narcissistic. Therefore, if you do choose to write about it in your PS, make sure it doesn't come across like that!

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[Lannister]

Tough situation. For me personally, I don't think that I would be willing to vote accept on someone who had a serious history of substance abuse. And that's not because abusing drugs makes you a bad person or means you'll be a bad doctor. But like someone else said, drug addiction is something you have to live with for your entire life. That urge never truly goes away (at least from my understanding, no first hand experience here). And I don't think that medicine, where you have constant access to highly addictive drugs, is the right field for someone who struggles with drug addiction. So I would reject such an applicant for his or her own sake.

That being said, you absolutely have to have an explanation for several years of Fs. So, if you decide to continue with applying to medical school, I think you'll have to find a balance between being honest and being vague.

 

[M1i]

Well thank you to everyone that replied! Especially the more senior members of this forum! Appreciate the feedback associated with your responses. It’s a great gauge on how people in the medical community feel about the subject as I really do not know. And I’m aware most of you are saying no but the fact that many of you are at least willing to read or discuss does give me some hope. Even though I’m sure that was not your intentions!! Some of you mentioned alcohol vs harder drugs. I wont go into detail but I was certainly in the latter category. Do some of you feel it may be beneficial if I substituted alcohol in for drugs, or am i still trying to hard to have it my way. Just trying to get a better understanding of what the majority thinks, as the general census was i do need to address my shortcomings one way or another. @gonnif @Lannister @gyngyn @mimelim @LizzyM

 

[LizzyM]

Some of you mentioned alcohol vs harder drugs. I wont go into detail but I was certainly in the latter category. Do some of you feel it may be beneficial if I substituted alcohol in for drugs, or am i still trying to hard to have it my way.

Well, don't lie and say it was only alcohol if it was other drugs as well. That's rule #1. Don't lie.

Please assure us that you've never been arrested for anything involving drugs. That would be pretty important to know and it is something that will need to be reported if you have.

 

[M1i]

Well, don't lie and say it was only alcohol if it was other drugs as well. That's rule #1. Don't lie.

Please assure us that you've never been arrested for anything involving drugs. That would be pretty important to know and it is something that will need to be reported if you have.

Fortunately i have no criminal record. I didn’t even think med schools would take you if you did.

 

[DO2015CA]

Fortunately i have no criminal record. I didn’t even think med schools would take you if you did.

Depends on your crime

 

[HomeSkool]

It seems I'm late to the party. (My surgeons spent the day destroying the OR board and my brain. Lots working, much doctor, many anesthesia.) First, a couple thoughts I had from statements the OP made:

But I find it unfortuante that such an intellectual indiviual could make a blanket statement about my application without taking all aspects of it into consideration.

@Med Ed isn't being judgmental. He's acknowledging a simple fact: med schools get thousands of applications for -- at most -- a couple hundred seats. And thousands of those applications are for great candidates who can contribute to the medical community in diverse ways. There's no realistic way adcoms can thoroughly evaluate every aspect of every application, so they thin the ranks by excluding many candidates due to various "undesirable" or "risky" attributes: low GPA/MCAT, previous IAs or criminal records, history of substance abuse, etc. Since there are so many applicants, this thinning of the herd doesn't decrease the quality or diversity of the matriculating class. It's wonderful that you've turned your life around, but actions have consequences and you may have permanently precluded yourself from a career in medicine. You need to enter this process knowing that you're fighting an uphill battle with a very high risk of failure. As @Goro says, have a plan B. Always have a plan B.

An explanation I feel should be honest...Ill use it as a demonstration of growth. I feel that despite its negative connotations its such a huge part of who I am. And it would feel wrong leaving it out.

I agree that an explanation needs to be honest. However, that doesn't mean you need to give adcoms an all-access guided tour of your darkest times. Adcoms expect honesty, but they don't expect absolute disclosure of deeply personal experiences. The spotty time in your background could be honestly explained thusly:

During my undergraduate years, I struggled with poor decision-making and lack of academic motivation. These challenges culminated in a four-year post-college period during which I was rudderless and accomplished nothing of value. Eventually, I realized that I had to change my habits in order to improve my life. This was a formidable challenge, since my lifestyle was firmly ingrained and my options limited. By employing willpower, dedication, and patience, I made the necessary changes to turn my life around.

That's just a very basic example, but what I hope to demonstrate is that you can be honest without showing every card in your hand. I agree with Goro: save a more substantial disclosure for secondary essays or interviews.

@gonnif's advice (post #49 especially) is pure gold. Take every word of it to heart. With respect to my colleague, though, I do believe it's possible and even advisable to do a gradual "reveal". I think you should make your personal statement as benign (but honest) as possible. Once you've got some schools interested, you can reveal more and more; as they come to know and trust you, they'll give you more and more latitude. Think of it like dating. You're on your best behavior on the first date, display a few endearing quirks during courtship, and then unveil the full measure of your nuttiness during the first year of marriage.

I remember a case I had about a year ago when I took a young man to the OR who was a recovering heroin addict. I gave him 50 micrograms of fentanyl (quite a small dose) on the way to the room and it completely zonked him. I was so happy about it that I told my CRNA, my surgeons, the OR nurses -- everyone involved in the case! -- He was telling the truth! He's clean! The fact that my patient had turned his life around gave me as much joy as if he were my own prodigal brother. What I'm trying to say is that I believe in redemption, I believe that our trajectory is at least as important as our current location, and I believe people can overcome terrible decisions and challenges to become who they ought to be. I wish you success as you apply, and I hope you can use your own experience to bless the lives of others who need a helping hand.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

incorporate how i SUCCESFULLY OVERCAME substance abuse

Since an addict is always recovering, I don’t think you’ll convince adcoms that you “successfully overcame” anything. Relapses happen....

 

[Med Ed]

But I find it unfortuante that such an intellectual indiviual could make a blanket statement about my application without taking all aspects of it into consideration.

I was simply referencing the fact that you started this thread by posing the following: "I have a question on whether it would be wise or not to mention my struggle with substance abuse on my application/ letter of intent." You then systematically justify including it in your application. So like I said, it seems that you have already made up your mind, so good luck with your approach.

 

[Welshman]

I think at least one area of consensus here is that it's going to take a crap ton of work in order to pull anything advised off. With that in mind, I would advise you start writing now and see which version is the most convincing. You're not married to your first draft by any means; I had over 8 significantly different versions for god's sake.

Make a plan for your PS and the most common secondary essays: diversity, challenge/adversity and a time you face criticism. Form it into a cohesive narrative and let people read it, their opinions may change when the rubber meets the road.

 

[Med Ed]

There's no realistic way adcoms can thoroughly evaluate every aspect of every application, so they thin the ranks by excluding many candidates due to various "undesirable" or "risky" attributes: low GPA/MCAT, previous IAs or criminal records, history of substance abuse, etc. Since there are so many applicants, this thinning of the herd doesn't decrease the quality or diversity of the matriculating class.

This is true, although on any given Sunday an adcom can make some interesting decisions.

Having witnessed the impact of addiction on both colleagues and students, I personally don't find the risk/reward profile very favorable in terms of future public safety and service to the profession. IMHO the OP would be an ideal candidate to follow his initial career idea, and become a clinical psychologist.

 

[M1i]

It seems I'm late to the party. (My surgeons spent the day destroying the OR board and my brain. Lots working, much doctor, many anesthesia.) First, a couple thoughts I had from statements the OP made:


@Med Ed isn't being judgmental. He's acknowledging a simple fact: med schools get thousands of applications for -- at most -- a couple hundred seats. And thousands of those applications are for great candidates who can contribute to the medical community in diverse ways. There's no realistic way adcoms can thoroughly evaluate every aspect of every application, so they thin the ranks by excluding many candidates due to various "undesirable" or "risky" attributes: low GPA/MCAT, previous IAs or criminal records, history of substance abuse, etc. Since there are so many applicants, this thinning of the herd doesn't decrease the quality or diversity of the matriculating class. It's wonderful that you've turned your life around, but actions have consequences and you may have permanently precluded yourself from a career in medicine. You need to enter this process knowing that you're fighting an uphill battle with a very high risk of failure. As @Goro says, have a plan B. Always have a plan B.



I agree that an explanation needs to be honest. However, that doesn't mean you need to give adcoms an all-access guided tour of your darkest times. Adcoms expect honesty, but they don't expect absolute disclosure of deeply personal experiences. The spotty time in your background could be honestly explained thusly:

That's just a very basic example, but what I hope to demonstrate is that you can be honest without showing every card in your hand. I agree with Goro: save a more substantial disclosure for secondary essays or interviews.

@gonnif's advice (post #49 especially) is pure gold. Take every word of it to heart. With respect to my colleague, though, I do believe it's possible and even advisable to do a gradual "reveal". I think you should make your personal statement as benign (but honest) as possible. Once you've got some schools interested, you can reveal more and more; as they come to know and trust you, they'll give you more and more latitude. Think of it like dating. You're on your best behavior on the first date, display a few endearing quirks during courtship, and then unveil the full measure of your nuttiness during the first year of marriage.

I remember a case I had about a year ago when I took a young man to the OR who was a recovering heroin addict. I gave him 50 micrograms of fentanyl (quite a small dose) on the way to the room and it completely zonked him. I was so happy about it that I told my CRNA, my surgeons, the OR nurses -- everyone involved in the case! -- He was telling the truth! He's clean! The fact that my patient had turned his life around gave me as much joy as if he were my own prodigal brother. What I'm trying to say is that I believe in redemption, I believe that our trajectory is at least as important as our current location, and I believe people can overcome terrible decisions and challenges to become who they ought to be. I wish you success as you apply, and I hope you can use your own experience to bless the lives of others who need a helping hand.

I cant stress enough that I am in no way offended by @Med Ed 's response! I'm a huge fan of candor, and nothing is going to benefit me more than the truth. Regardless of how 'offensive or judgmental' it may seem. He's an ADCOM, he is the exact type of individual that will be reviewing my application and it doesn't matter how strongly I feel about it, I really only care what he (or people like him) thinks. So when I reply its not argumentative or defensive its my attempt at an explanation, and to obtain a better understanding of his reasoning. What I do appreciate more than anything that I have read on this thread is what you posted sir. The time you took to write such a detailed response to my dilemma despite being so busy, THANK YOU KINDLY!

Believe me when I say I'm fully aware of the impact my substance abuse has had on my life. I more than anyone. I'm aware of the countless repercussions its had on my past, and how it will inevitably impact my future. But it is the set of circumstances I must work with. Everyone has things they must work through, substance abuse is mine. And I find it impossible for someone that hasn't experienced it first hand to understand but I wouldn't even be here, trying to do this if it wasn't for what I had gone through so for that I'm thankful.

With that being said, my main objective isn't to successfully disclose my substance abuse, its to get into med school. So when you say I can "reveal more and more as they come to know and trust you" I'm not sure if that is referring to the over all interview/admission process or once I'm a student there. Ultimately I truly don't care if they never know. I wouldn't feel the need to disclose it once I'm in. The majority of people I associate with know nothing about that part of my life, and I like it that way. I have grown so far and distant from it, its not something most people need to know to understand me. I just didn't see any other way other than being honest and outright in my application as a result of my sketchy history, and a compelling gauge to how much I have developed as a person. I really enjoyed your brief example of how I could explain my spotty past. Of course it is a little more censored than what I would have liked to say, but if that is the kind of explanation a medical school will want than that is certainly something I am going to try and accommodate.

My brief questions for you, and please don't feel rushed to reply, would be: When you said reveal over time did you mean throughout the interview process? Or once I am a student?
Also do you feel the sample explanation you gave (or something comparable) would promote further investigation of the ADCOMS that would require greater detail or explanation on my part? In which case would I be honest then. Or still try to remain as vague as possible. (obviously this would just be your speculation I understand)

Sorry for the lengthy response. Thank you again, and appreciate any reply or answers you may have!

 

[M1i]

I was simply referencing the fact that you started this thread by posing the following: "I have a question on whether it would be wise or not to mention my struggle with substance abuse on my application/ letter of intent." You then systematically justify including it in your application. So like I said, it seems that you have already made up your mind, so good luck with your approach.

Understandable. And I would be lying if I said I didn't prefer the option that allowed me to successfully disclose my issue, so I'm certainly a little bias. But my mind is far from made. And my justification was more evidence I see as to why it would be beneficial. If my post merely stated "I want to put substance abuse on my application/letter", I'm sure many people would be curious as to why.

 

[HomeSkool]

I'm glad I could help!

He's an ADCOM, he is the exact type of individual that will be reviewing my application and it doesn't matter how strongly I feel about it, I really only care what he (or people like him) thinks.

Oh, how I wish everyone understood this! Deal with the world the way it is, and you'll eventually be in a position to rewrite the rules (or understand why the rules are the way they are). 20-year-olds love to do things "on principle", which is a great way to valiantly accomplish nothing.

With that being said, my main objective isn't to successfully disclose my substance abuse, its to get into med school.

^THIS. The only reason I recommended a gradual "reveal" is because your early posts gave me the impression that you were set on disclosing very sensitive details about your past. But if you're happy keeping those details to yourself, my advice is to do just that: emphasize your strengths rather than drawing attention to your weaknesses.

My advice on how to explain the spotty points in your past is the following:

1. Be honest
2. Don't be evasive
3. Share details only when they're pertinent or requested

That's what I meant to convey with the sample explanation I wrote in my previous post. It's truthful, it doesn't distort the past, and it takes ownership of your earlier struggles without completely throwing back the curtain on a difficult and dark time. It acknowledges that you made some bad decisions, and it does so in an open way that invites the reader to ask for elaboration and/or clarification if they so desire. It also adequately closes the loop for the reader so no further explanation may be necessary. It's exactly what you do when you interact with people every day: you show them who you are today, not who you used to be.

A big part of why I recommend honestly disclosing minimal detail here is because I personally don't give two [poops] about your past substance abuse. What I care about is who you are now, and who you're becoming day by day.

When you said reveal over time did you mean throughout the interview process? Or once I am a student?

As per the above. 🙂

Also do you feel the sample explanation you gave (or something comparable) would promote further investigation of the ADCOMS that would require greater detail or explanation on my part? In which case would I be honest then. Or still try to remain as vague as possible. (obviously this would just be your speculation I understand)

Some adcoms might ask for more detail, and I think you should provide it honestly. My advice isn't to hide the past; rather, it's to display the present as prominently as possible. If they ask for more information about the past, provide it and then use it to segue into how recovery has improved you as a person and prospective physician. Show them why you'll be a great doctor rather than a risky student.

Again, remember that you do have a spotty past and that there's a high risk that you'll fail to be accepted. Only about 40% of applicants get accepted in the first place; those with red flags get accepted at an even lower rate. However, that rate is not zero! Try for plan A, and have a plan B that you can happily accept and enjoy.

If you do get accepted to med school, I strongly urge you to avoid putting yourself in harm's way with your choice of specialty. Among physicians, anesthesiologists and psychiatrists have the highest rates of substance abuse. You should decide right now that you won't pursue either of those specialties. If you want to work in behavioral health, I think @LizzyM has offered you an excellent suggestion: becoming a clinical psychologist will expose you to less personal risk while still affording you the opportunity for direct patient care in a capacity that leverages your recovery experience for the benefit of others.

As before, whatever you decide on, I wish you luck!

 

[Premed2295]

I may be in the minority here but I say do it! The best nurse I know is a young MAN who recovered from an alcohol problem and along the way discovered his passion for being an oncology nurse and caring for vulnerable patients. Hearing him speak about it, and share his own story is beyond inspiring and got him hired at one of the top 10 hospitals in the nation, and it is evident in conversation that his compassion for his patients comes directly from the compassion he was shown at his lowest point. As long as you can tease out that connection, I 10000% believe that you can and should submit this is a personal statement. It makes you memorable, and it makes you someone I want to root for. I am not on an Admissions Committee, but if I were, I would take a chance on that person, and let them continue to better their lives and find purpose.
Isn't healing the mind, body and spirit and helping previously sick people regain their lives and live up to their potential what medicine is all about?

 

[M1i]

I may be in the minority here but I say do it! The best nurse I know is a young MAN who recovered from an alcohol problem and along the way discovered his passion for being an oncology nurse and caring for vulnerable patients. Hearing him speak about it, and share his own story is beyond inspiring and got him hired at one of the top 10 hospitals in the nation, and it is evident in conversation that his compassion for his patients comes directly from the compassion he was shown at his lowest point. As long as you can tease out that connection, I 10000% believe that you can and should submit this is a personal statement. It makes you memorable, and it makes you someone I want to root for. I am not on an Admissions Committee, but if I were, I would take a chance on that person, and let them continue to better their lives and find purpose.
Isn't healing the mind, body and spirit and helping previously sick people regain their lives and live up to their potential what medicine is all about?

Thank you Premed! I appreciate your support and enthusiasm in my disclosing the truth. I also enjoy to see that your outlook on substance abuse is more progressive than most. However the majority of drug addicts are not like your nursing colleague or myself, and i say that not to sound arrogant. But most are still using drugs and can be seen as an understandable liability. Unlike myself, the nurse and many others who have bettered themselves and are trying very much to be a productive member of society. But if the opinion of the population on this thread is any inclination on how it will be recieved by an ADCOM than I’m not certain I still feel confident in doing so. Like you said your opinion appears to be that of the minority and that isn’t a risk I’m fully willing to take. I feel if given the opportunity they too could see my passion and how many more parallels I share with that of a med student, than that of a drug addict, and how removed I am from my condition. (obviously never truly cured). But if I’m dismissed before given that chance, all my passion and enthusiasm is useless. Ultimately ill censor whatever i must to obtain my ultimate goal which is becoming a physician. But thank you again! And hopefully one day more people will see ‘recovering’ addicts the way you do.

 

[Premed2295]

Thank you Premed! I appreciate your support and enthusiasm in my disclosing the truth. I also enjoy to see that your outlook on substance abuse is more progressive than most. However the majority of drug addicts are not like your nursing colleague or myself, and i say that not to sound arrogant. But most are still using drugs and can be seen as an understandable liability. Unlike myself, the nurse and many others who have bettered themselves and are trying very much to be a productive member of society. But if the opinion of the population on this thread is any inclination on how it will be recieved by an ADCOM than I’m not certain I still feel confident in doing so. Like you said your opinion appears to be that of the minority and that isn’t a risk I’m fully willing to take. I feel if given the opportunity they too could see my passion and how many more parallels I share with that of a med student, than that of a drug addict, and how removed I am from my condition. (obviously never truly cured). But if I’m dismissed before given that chance, all my passion and enthusiasm is useless. Ultimately ill censor whatever i must to obtain my ultimate goal which is becoming a physician. But thank you again! And hopefully one day more people will see ‘recovering’ addicts the way you do.

I totally understand that! Depending on the school and the question that might be a good secondary topic. If not, let the passion and compassion you have learned from your experience shine in other ways. It is my dream that some day people want to help amazing and inspiring people like you as badly as I do, and as badly as you deserve. The fact that schools are taking a holistic approach which values human compassion is excellent news for that progress. The world needs doctors who want to care for the whole person. And with the current state of our nation being willing and able to care for those who have a past history of substance abuse (or a current struggle) is going to be a vital component of all medical careers.
You are in my prayers

 

[Baxter56]

I know this is an old post, but I have a criminal record due to substance abuse and therefore I had to report it, I tied it into my personal statement and applied to lots of schools, MD and DO. I got a handful of interviews and two acceptances- 4 years ago. So do what you feel is right!

 

[M1i]

I know this is an old post, but I have a criminal record due to substance abuse and therefore I had to report it, I tied it into my personal statement and applied to lots of schools, MD and DO. I got a handful of interviews and two acceptances- 4 years ago. So do what you feel is right!

Mind me asking if your 2 acceptances were DO or MD.
By the way, good for you that things worked out!

 

[Baxter56]

Mind me asking if your 2 acceptances were DO or MD.
By the way, good for you that things worked out!

DO! This may not be true- but with my experience I feel DO schools are more understanding of non trad applicants and that life happens. I have many friends who have taken off years to become homemakers or have kids, and had similar experience with getting acceptances at strictly DOs with little communication from the MD schools.

 

[jmetaller]

This is an interesting question. With all the "diversity" essays these schools are asking for I find it abhorrent that substance abuse would still be stigmatized in the context of personal growth. Of course, pick your battles. I probably wouldn't mention it myself. But still. If each persons troubles were laid out in full view we could create reasons everyone shouldn't be a doctor.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

This is an interesting question. With all the "diversity" essays these schools are asking for I find it abhorrent that substance abuse would still be stigmatized in the context of personal growth. Of course, pick your battles. I probably wouldn't mention it myself. But still. If each persons troubles were laid out in full view we could create reasons everyone shouldn't be a doctor.

I do think substance abuse is probably a BIG red flag though due to prescribing rights

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[LizzyM]

This is an interesting question. With all the "diversity" essays these schools are asking for I find it abhorrent that substance abuse would still be stigmatized in the context of personal growth. Of course, pick your battles. I probably wouldn't mention it myself. But still. If each persons troubles were laid out in full view we could create reasons everyone shouldn't be a doctor.

As a society, we give physicians the privlege and responsibility to prescribe controlled substances. These substances are "controlled" because they have a risk of dependency and abuse. Handing a prescription pad and the right to prescribe controlled substances to someone who has struggled with substance abuse could be a problem for both the physician and for society. It is not about stigmitization; it is about risk reduction/risk avoidance down the road.

 

[NaoGuiHua]

I have a question on whether it would be wise or not to mention my struggle with substance abuse on my application/ letter of intent. I believe it may be beneficial, however others have advised me against it (None of which are pre-med students or advisors). There are many factors involved in this:

1) I am a non traditional student, who has an atrocious transcript for my first two years after high school at a state college (consisting of many F’s and W’s). Followed by another 4 year gap in my life where I have nothing productive to show for, no academics, no job...nothing. All of which stems directly from my substance abuse.

2) My wanting to become a physician is derived from this life experience. It grew dramatically from the idea that I initially wanted to be a clinical psychologist for other people with substance abuse.

3) I would also (eloquently) state how it has shaped the person I am today, as it has. Providing me with many positive characteristics including resilience, adaptability, patience, and a greater understanding of illness. Even if it is just mental illness.

I argue that by including this on my statement it would somewhat justly explain my wasted time and poor grades. Allow me to explain one of my true reasons for wanting to practice medicine and definitely make me stand out. I just worry I may stand out in a bad way, and an admissions board may have an understandable bias. Please know that I would leave out all the dark and gory details of my substance abuse and would only use it in a positive light to illustrate growth, insight and explanation. And backing it up, since my return to school I have recieved an A in all my classes, work experience, leadership experience, volunteered (clinically and non), as well as shadowed. So I anticipate to have a strong application
SORRY FOR THE LONG POST BUT OPINIONS PLEASE!

How did it go?

 

[LizzyM]

How did it go?

OP has not been here in >3 years and has not posted in over 4 years. Never reported getting admitted to any med school, btw. I guess this may always be a mystery.

 

[DO2015CA]

OP has not been here in >3 years and has not posted in over 4 years. Never reported getting admitted to any med school, btw. I guess this may always be a mystery.

Ooorrrr that is evidence in itself. Hehe