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What? Where?
WildZenge Presents: Horizon Zero DaWWn
Started by WildZoo
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Okay, I don't see how blocking would have a "village tone" especially in an essentially flavorless game.
Regarding your own answer avoidance, what do you think of shorty's confirmation that this plan isn't losable regardless of what happens N5? Are there any other questions you want to loop through to me before it's yeet hour?
Regarding your own answer avoidance, what do you think of shorty's confirmation that this plan isn't losable regardless of what happens N5? Are there any other questions you want to loop through to me before it's yeet hour?
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My result about successful blocking had lots of flavor in it. Body parts, sounds, location, a lot of things.
Sure didn't exist in my results.
WildZoo
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Saw y'all were discussing ties. That seems like a good idea to me 
WildZoo
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But but...my writeups 😢
Why not? Lawpys redirection used the word “nefarious.” You can make anything have a wolfy or village sound. But par for the course to condescend me.
I have no control over what the rest of village decides to do because apparently if this “plan” is agreed upon then I’m the ded guy and I can’t control it anyway.
Well, I didn't remember Lawpy saying the redirect's flavor was nefarious. I thought that was just the intent he and I came too since they was no reason to mess with him as a villager.
Cray's "flavor" I received is entirely NAI.
You can still contribute in discussion so I don't understand why the deflation given this will only confirm your win if you're village.
I do love that we're having a mechanics discussion and flavor isn't coming into it (much). It's fun and exciting to be in a game where a tinkerer makes a protection or seering item or you have have a watcher and you still have to debate what their Aff is.
Speaking of which, how can we be so sure of what this seering item does? Friend finder, what if it just tells you if someone is or isn't a machine like oneself or something?
I just don't want the story to change tomorrow.
I just don't want the story to change tomorrow.
I mean, April's the one that made it so I assume she knows what it does.
It's capable of differentiating village/wolf/3P (juuuust in case there's a 3P floating around out there)
I can only really block one of 3 players tonight. If the theory is correct about the wolf(ves) no killing on purpose... my blocking is useless for finding a killer that way. Makes me question utility of blocking Lawpy, I'd rather not if he was village and could do something.
Not really comfortable with the wolf knowing I would block Lawpy tonight. Leaves them free to kill amongst Cubs, April, Shorty, whoever of those is village they want to off, with impunity. They wouldn't have to bother with NKing myself or Lawpy unless it helps craft their end game. Literally have their pick of anyone that way.
I don't like the team up of Lawpy and AM on you, and if I could be persuaded to move off AM, can't see myself voting for you.
It doesn't matter who you target, or if you target at all, as long as you don't touch April or shorty.
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I'm also not sure why they're going for you over me anyway as you've pointed out. I mean the only reason I can see is that there is hope I get resolved by my own actions or by that of anyone who can investigate (Lawpy's action, an item, whatever) whereas the only sure way to be sure of you I guess is by flip, or maybe this item.
Wait, doesn't it then make the most sense to use the item to investigate you, and flip Lawpy today?
Why is AM OK with flipping you? How does the item help AM if Lawpy or myself are the only ones she can look into with the item, and one of us is surely to die overnight?
How can she be sure she even gets utility out of the item?
The more I think about this, the more it just feels like AM is trying to avoid yeet by any means possible and is just using this item and promises to get there.
Cray. I've explained this probably 10 times this cycle.
I'll quote the plan again.
As an addendum to the above, by what AM has claimed, I can't see her wanting to investigate Shorty or April. Only makes sense myself, Cubs, Lawpy, and I can't see at least two of us making it tomorrow. So only has a 1 in 3 chance she investigates someone still alive tomorrow by those odds.
I can't see a wolf AM letting me live to tomorrow, because tomorrow night I could block her again.
Please tell me the failsafe isn't me living long enough to block her again.
I can't see a wolf AM letting me live to tomorrow, because tomorrow night I could block her again.
Please tell me the failsafe isn't me living long enough to block her again.
Additionally this @Crayola227
The plan is not dependent on anyone investigated surviving the night. It's solely connected to me using the item regardless of who dies. Whatever happens, the POE will be mechanically locked and the wolf will be mechanically outted.
I know, but this only applies if you're village. If you're wolf it almost doesn't matter what anyone does tonight, and it doesn't matter what results you claim tomorrow.
I really hope people get this. If you don't yeet AM today or tomorrow, there is no way to rule out she's a wolf.
I don't trust this fail safe, I mean Bob was village and there was so much wrong with many of his assumptions about abilities that we had to point out. AM has played a lot of MU and seen a lot of crazy mechanics. She could get very creative with fake mechanics. I'm the only player here I believe besides her that has played bastardish games like by STL or bizarro Lounge experimental games, and can think of all kinds of loopholes to many assumptions from that.
I don't believe she'll be stopped tomorrow if she's really a wolf UNLESS YOU VOTE HER.
What if she has a yeet avoidance we don't know about? A night kill avoidance?
Frak, don't know why I didn't think of yeet avoidance until now. If that's the case, all she has to do is not get yeeted today, and then whatever this failsafe is fails, and she wins.
It doesn't. It applies if I am wolf as well. That's why this plan is foolproof. I cannot win under any circumstance if I am a wolf. You're still not understanding the plan because that's the underlying theme.
I need you to stop with the tinfoils because we're not on MU, Bob was wrong about Mel, no results have been bastard, April didn't build a bastard item. I'm never letting you harass samac about this stuff again regardless at this point.
The plan still works if I have a yeet avoidance. A wolf already flipped with a kill avoidance.
You are tinfoiling on things that are, at best, extremely unlikely.
I give up. Because it feels like this has all been "figured out" by stuff involving PMs and PRs, and frankly game design like that makes me not even want to play a game. Because if for whatever reason you're not in the know, then as a villager on thread you might as well not even be part of the game. Villagers not in the PM become irrelevant to outcome.
The only way I like for such a game to end, is all the villagers lose by PM wolf pocket. I hope wolf AM wins.
Only alley learned a lesson in RvB and myself in baby animals (although mel wasn't wolf at the time... but then he converted)
I think you should also look up the definition of failsafe. What percent of failsafe's fail?
You're mad because the game is mechanically solved and village has a guaranteed victory. Why? Don't you want to win?
shorty has even thrown you a bone to be involved in this network and you're making no attempt to be let in on it.
It's not a ****ing tinfoil. YOU guys are the ones tinfoiling because what you are proposing doesn't make sense and is backed up by unproven mechanics you can't explain.
What, does the item auto-kill a wolf that tries to use it or something?
I've never played a game where a wolf just magically dies not by yeet by some predetermined point in the game without the actions of another player. Ie they die no matter what villagers are alive or not.
AM, if you were in my position, you would vote you. That's all. Blocked player on a no wolf kill night? I doubt you would let that player live to end game based on a seering item claim.
Tinfoil: Mechanics that may or may not exist.
Mine are all based in confirmable game mechanics. No "what if". Just "it is". So no, it's not a tinfoil.
If you are village, you will learn something from this game about what is too much tinfoiling and how it screws village over.
Not if the person if my POE proposed the same exact plan I am on thread.
I didn't say we were on MU. You are smart and you could use mechanics claims to float something plausible to a less experienced player.
I can't take the vague word of someone heavily wolf suspect by mechanics AND VCA (and I'm going to iso you now too) and that of someone highly likely to be in the pocket, for a vague failsafe. A failsafe one doesn't personally understand, is NOT A FAILSAFE.
This has nothing to do with PMs per se and so I'm not going to cave to your threats about samac.
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supershorty
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@Crayola227, these 2 sentences are the most important part of that post. Think about mechanics we already have thread confirmation of.
Like I said, I give up guys.
I bitched to WZ about the flavor stuff being used to clear players, and it feels like she definitely responded in game design. I have to wonder what else I bitched about being missing from the good old days that she decided to switch things up in this game.
I don't know what, if any influence Zenge is having on game design. Some new mods will keep to basics/things they've seen, and others will try to ruin all your assumptions.
In any case, I just hope this isn't the game where we lose to PMs and unforeseen mechanics. But actually, that's what I hope for because it's basically what I've been begging for, for a while.
I also am wondering where Zenge falls on some of these game design issues. I can't speak for him, but I'd be surprised if he favored a game that foils a wolf by PM given his own experience.
#modmetalol
I bitched to WZ about the flavor stuff being used to clear players, and it feels like she definitely responded in game design. I have to wonder what else I bitched about being missing from the good old days that she decided to switch things up in this game.
I don't know what, if any influence Zenge is having on game design. Some new mods will keep to basics/things they've seen, and others will try to ruin all your assumptions.
In any case, I just hope this isn't the game where we lose to PMs and unforeseen mechanics. But actually, that's what I hope for because it's basically what I've been begging for, for a while.
I also am wondering where Zenge falls on some of these game design issues. I can't speak for him, but I'd be surprised if he favored a game that foils a wolf by PM given his own experience.
#modmetalol
supershorty
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Yeet Lawpy
I'd like to give AM's plan a chance to play out, and MsLawpy has the fewest village things going for him. The VCA over the course of the game is bad. I didn't find his previous post about how he would have switched to Mel if it looked like he needed to particularly convincing - it's easy to say something like that after the fact. I've been feeling okay about cubs lately, and Lawpy's been trying to shade him pretty hard the past 2 days.
I'd like to give AM's plan a chance to play out, and MsLawpy has the fewest village things going for him. The VCA over the course of the game is bad. I didn't find his previous post about how he would have switched to Mel if it looked like he needed to particularly convincing - it's easy to say something like that after the fact. I've been feeling okay about cubs lately, and Lawpy's been trying to shade him pretty hard the past 2 days.
If I was in the same position as you, I'd be flipping stuff too, and I was for a while. I get what's going on now and why we can't really talk about it on thread until tomorrow. I'm only okay doing it because it's for the funsies and because I know if all else fails, we can yeet AM tomorrow and we'll assumably end the game. I can tell this type of approach isn't fun for you so I'd be alright yeeting AM today if it means having a more enjoyable game for the people who aren't "in the know."
It has nothing to do with flavor or funky game design, just mechanics that are already well-known to the thread. I don't blame you at all for feeling out of the loop and wanting to throw everything out the window. But the plan wasn't made possible by the mods so don't blame them for that.
I'm willing to play ball, and I'm concerned how we'll resolve Cubs. I don't know how to choose between those two, Lawpy or Cubs. AM is easier vote for me because it's the one I believe in and makes the most sense.
I also can't NOT block you or Shorty on AM's word.
Whatever you guys want me to do tonight I will, but it needs to be based on the thread consensus from any or all players except for her. If it matches up with what she says, that's fine. But I have to hear it from elsewhere besides her.
Probably would be better to block me tonight (if you can't choose one of the sketchies) since any item I make won't be usable before the game ends one way or another
I wouldn't automatically rule out another wolf with a NK avoidance. The two conversions in Baby Animals was also pretty rare and unexpected.
We had calculated 25% of 14 = 3.5
So I don't totally rule out 4 wolves, either.
Really, I start "tinfoiling" to explain why, actually, rather than it being the tinfoil necessarily, why I typically will go for a more "conservative" approach. Based on this, more likely AM or Lawpy is a wolf than Cubs, basically.
supershorty
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I'm struggling with this a little too. I feel like earlier in the game, cubs had some moments (that I've talked extensively about) that made me think he was wolfy, but I've been reading him much more villagey in the last couple days.
On the other hand, I haven't had a lot of moments with Lawpy that made me give him wolf points, per se, but there also haven't been a lot of moments that gave him village points either. Tonally, he sounds like the village!Lawpy that I've played with before, but tone can be replicated.
So lawpy today, AM tomorrow is what you’re suggesting?
I'm happy to try to block Lawpy instead, Cubs will just deactivate me and I don't know if in the game that happening a second time would kill me instead of damage.
My point was only, I'm willing to work with you and Shorty, and if you want to work with AM, not much else I can do. But I'm making it clear I'm going along with your judgments because I village read you guys, not her.
I am going to try to ISO her a bit anyway.
And I did say a few times, AM feels a little different than this game. Most of her points she's made seem sound from a WW strategy standpoint, but I wouldn't expect anything less from a wolf wife.
Sounds like you’re pushing cray way more than me, but the plan only works if I’m the vote today?
And we're back from a long day with pain meds from a medical procedure, hours of critical work and now hundreds of notifications to WW game
Let me respond since there are some things i've been thinking about since last night
Let me respond since there are some things i've been thinking about since last night
The all time hater of mechanics wants to be the hero to use mechanics to win a game with a foolproof plan?
This might make the most sense, I don't know. We can't yeet AM without Shorty's cooperation. Although I don't know if Shorty would vote you and push people's hands on breaking that tie.
So if AM isn't an option, it kinda becomes a question of who else is village willing to coalecse around.
The main appeal of you that I can tell, is "not getting outsmarted by mechanics and VCA" and catching the "deep wolf" which sounds cool and all, but it is a little ridiculous when you have two players with a CLEAR theory for their wolfiness (Lawper and AM how we could have had the no kill night)
It's one thing to be outmanuvuered by intelligent wolf play, which losing to you, April, myself, or Shorty would be (big balls! Licking!) But another thing for village to shoot itself in the foot chasing "deep wolves" that don't exist and voting villagers with the best VCA.
supershorty
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I don't think I am willing to vote for cubs unless Lawpy flips village.
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So i'll respond to this soon and i've been thinking a lot about this but there is one thing that's been really bothering me in this game. And please note shorty, i'm not addressing this to you specifically but a general you to everyone playing this game, since this is actually bothering me and i'm struggling to understand the rationale.
When i subbed into MSP slot, the immediate pressure fell on AM as everyone kept asking her how did she read me every single time with regular tags and updates on how her read is since she's known to have a perfect read on me. And now when AM explicitly says she's village reading me, why is that being ignored? And if that's going to be ignored anyways, why repeatedly ask her every single time whenever i play or sub in?
Because say i get yeeted, flip village and prove AM's read right. Nothing really will change in future games other than repeatedly asking AM for her read on me then flatly ignoring it near end game, rinse and repeat the process. This has been happening for a long while on SDN WW, even for years in fact.
And it's something that really bothers me and i think it's very unfair to place such pressure on AM and others with historically good reads on me
I’m kinda like cray, halfway in the loop but not in the loop enough. Frustrated but it’s out of my hands. Shorty, cray, and April, just tell me where to vote.
It's that time of the cycle where I'm getting paranoid about what might happen if we let AM live another day
supershorty
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You can do this though. I'm not making a tie. I just won't agree with the decision to yeet her today.
I know I didn't say it but it's a huge reason I let up on you after thinking on it for a while. AM, even if wolf, would be too proud to let down her 100% Lawpy read and it's the reason I think you're the village option out of the AM/Lawpy least-villagey combo.
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