2015-2016 Harvard Medical School Application Thread

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carpediem22 said:
I don't know if that feeling in my stomach right now is excitement or pure dread. I'm thinking the latter.
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Mine's a mix of both right now. But I think once I get my HMS decision I'll be relieved, more than anything - it's been a long cycle and I'm so ready for it to be done.
 
carpediem22 said:
I don't know if that feeling in my stomach right now is excitement or pure dread. I'm thinking the latter.

Edit: Also, this is probably a stupid question but do any MSTP applicants know if they do calls? Either they didn't say or I wasn't listening... :bear:
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No they didn't say but HMS does not do calls. They're too busy for that 😉 MSTP
gets decisions in the first batch on D-Day, like 11-12 around lunchtime
 
theboatman said:
I have a random question. Not sure if this is the right place to post but I'll give it a shot.
How easy is it to match into residency programs if accepted to HMS? For example, if I wanted to do Ophthalmology, by attending HMS, would I have a very good shot of matching, assuming I put in the work?
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ImmunoLove said:
Your step scores, Sub I's and performance in medical school is primarily the driving force behind your placement (the medical school itself has a much smaller direct influence).
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Yeah. The Harvard name certainly doesn't hurt (and might help open some doors if you're a marginal residency applicant), but it's mostly about your scores and recommendations. Of course, if you get good grades, scores, and recommendations, you've got a solid chance of matching into optho from almost any med school. Kind of like applying to med school in the first place.

gt93 said:
Thanks for the response guys. So we are looking at $136,000 loan minimum for the four years because of the unit loan. What do you guys think about this. April is coming fast so I'm starting to think about my decision. I know I'm jumping the gun but lets say I was to hypothetically get into Harvard, I'd be looking at paying close to $150k at least over the 4 years. I already got offered a full ride to another top 15 med school. The question is.. would you guys sacrifice that for the so called "Harvard+ Loans" ?
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avgn said:
It shouldn't just be about total cost, it should also be about relative cost. Someone weighing HMS against max aid at Yale (28+29+30+31=118k) thinks a lot differently than @gt93 who is looking at a difference of 150k. But yes I agree, taken alone, $140k for HMS is very affordable in the full context of the cost of medical education in the U.S.
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That's the way I look at it. Taking $140k in loans for a Harvard MD and all that comes with it is a reasonable trade. Medical school in general, though, is one of the few investments that is almost guaranteed to turn a profit in the long run. It's hard to ignore, but don't obsess about the six-figure loan debt too much.

RunnerforLife14 said:
It really depends on your career goals I think.
If you're into the name, obviously it is hard to beat HMS. If you want to be in Boston and kinda have a good chance to stay in the same system for your residency (stay in Boston at any of the HMS affiliated hospitals), then HMS is a great choice because they retain a lot of their own students (highest rate in the country, I think). I would say that the feel of the school is important, too.
On the other side, if you want more flexibility financially as a physician, then the full ride is likely the ticket. The loans vs not having to pay anything really puts you in a tough spot...if you want to be able to do whatever you want in medicine, then no loans is the way to go. If you want to do work in underserved areas, abroad, practice medicine at a little more of a "leisurely" pace where you REALLY spend a lot of time with patients or even start your own practice, the no loans is the way to go. I'd like to think most of us have gone into medicine for the excitement of medicine and helping humanity and those in need, but it is foolish to ignore the financial implications of getting a medical education and supporting yourself as a physician. I can imagine that despite doing their best, physicians are plagued by the pressure to keep their practices afloat or perform to the financial expectations of a healthcare employer (hospital/clinic) and I have a feeling that it affects their happiness and even their performance as physicians...it is an unfortunate, sad scenario.
So, in short if you like the name and the opportunities that come with it and are comfortable with being a little leveraged in terms of how you practice medicine, then HMS is your place. If you really are averse to the pressures of money and want the discretion to practice medicine your own way, then go with the no loan school. It is harder today for MD's to "hang up a shingle" and start practicing in their own facility because of financial constraints, so institutional medicine is usually the choice. But the people who seem to be able to go into private practice off the bat are those who have little to no debt. Plus, I feel like getting a job in institutional medicine hinges a little more on your "pedigree" whereas your ability to go into independent private practice immediately after residency does not depend on those same things as much.
I don't pretend to know all of the answers, but this is just my two cents. I really hope this helps. I always like to hear other perspectives from other students so I figured I would do the same.
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Well said. I agree.

order66.exe said:
I think this depends on you and your career goals. I got the feeling that HMS is really for students who want to do medicine + something else. Be that research, policy, business, public health etcetera. If you see yourself solely as a clinician then it may be better to save 150k.
Besides that, a top 15 school is not going to close any doors for you in terms of specializing.
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avgn said:
Seconded. Both Yale and Hopkins also indicated on interview day that they were looking to train "clinicians plus" (JHU quote). Yale just told us "if you just want to practice medicine, do not come here." Made it sound like wanting to be in private practice was a crime or something lol quite amusing but totally in line with my plans 😍
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This actually came up in class a few times last month. We spent some time discussing the physician's role in society, and many of us got the feeling that the faculty were strongly pushing us towards the "clinicians plus" career model. There were a few papers and lectures about integrating the practice of medicine with research, social justice, political advocacy, community involvement, health management, etc. The not-so-subtle hint was that we should be planning a medical career that involves significant activities beyond the clinic. That's fine for some people, but many students pushed back against the feeling that the faculty were imposing their ethics and career goals on young medical students. There seemed to be an implicit assumption that a physician who "merely" takes care of his patients was not doing his duty to society and his profession. While most of us obviously have goals that extend well beyond the clinic, we did not appreciate the judgmental attitude that we sensed towards the "common doctor." There are a number of students in my class who already have a strong interest in primary care (i.e. being a "common doctor"). Of course, true to Harvard, those students who are interested in primary care are really interested in primary care. They can be a little intense. But I guess that's the type of PCP that we need for the future.
 
the_ajax_kid said:
This actually came up in class a few times last month. We spent some time discussing the physician's role in society, and many of us got the feeling that the faculty were strongly pushing us towards the "clinicians plus" career model. There were a few papers and lectures about integrating the practice of medicine with research, social justice, political advocacy, community involvement, health management, etc. The not-so-subtle hint was that we should be planning a medical career that involves significant activities beyond the clinic. That's fine for some people, but many students pushed back against the feeling that the faculty were imposing their ethics and career goals on young medical students. There seemed to be an implicit assumption that a physician who "merely" takes care of his patients was not doing his duty to society and his profession. While most of us obviously have goals that extend well beyond the clinic, we did not appreciate the judgmental attitude that we sensed towards the "common doctor." There are a number of students in my class who already have a strong interest in primary care (i.e. being a "common doctor"). Of course, true to Harvard, those students who are interested in primary care are really interested in primary care. They can be a little intense. But I guess that's the type of PCP that we need for the future.
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I never want to see the day when the hardcore PCP med student becomes a SJW caricature...

Is it an actual bias or just high-achieving profs encouraging students to also be high-achieving and maximize potential? Big difference there. I can see HMS being elitist against the everyday docs but also can't shake the possibility of a sort of parental encouragement angle here as well
 
avgn said:
I never want to see the day when the hardcore PCP med student becomes a SJW caricature...

Is it an actual bias or just high-achieving profs encouraging students to also be high-achieving and maximize potential? Big difference there. I can see HMS being elitist against the everyday docs but also can't shake the possibility of a sort of parental encouragement angle here as well
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You can be high-achieving and "maximize potential" in primary care, too. Anyone insinuating otherwise definitely has a bias. In fact, I would argue that now more than ever we need bright, driven primary care leaders to think through and solve some of the current pressing issues in PC.
 
carpediem22 said:
You can be high-achieving and "maximize potential" in primary care, too. Anyone insinuating otherwise definitely has a bias. In fact, I would argue that now more than ever we need bright, driven primary care leaders to think through and solve some of the current pressing issues in PC.
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Who said anything about PC-only? I'm talking about bias against private practice or clinican only, not necessarily in primary care or any specific specialty. Framed as such, is it wrong for HMS to want its students to be more than a clinician with its massive resources? Much is asked to whom much is given. It's harder to find a moral argument against that than the primary care argument (the latter of which I totally agree with btw)
 
avgn said:
Who said anything about PC-only? I'm talking about bias against private practice or clinican only, not necessarily in primary care or any specific specialty. Framed as such, is it wrong for HMS to want its students to be more than a clinician with its massive resources? Much is asked to whom much is given. It's harder to find a moral argument against that than the primary care argument (the latter of which I totally agree with btw)
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Ah, I interpreted Ajax's post as referring to primary care, since he/she specified that the students who felt pressured were those interested in primary care. That being said, even if we are talking about private practice, we need really excellent private practice physicians too, and physicians who go into private practice often do have more time to focus on being a truly outstanding medical provider. This coming from an aspiring physician-scientist, so obviously I am not partial to private practice.
 
avgn said:
Who said anything about PC-only? I'm talking about bias against private practice or clinican only, not necessarily in primary care or any specific specialty. Framed as such, is it wrong for HMS to want its students to be more than a clinician with its massive resources? Much is asked to whom much is given. It's harder to find a moral argument against that than the primary care argument (the latter of which I totally agree with btw)
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carpediem22 said:
Ah, I interpreted Ajax's post as referring to primary care, since he/she specified that the students who felt pressured were those interested in primary care. That being said, even if we are talking about private practice, we need really excellent private practice physicians too, and physicians who go into private practice often do have more time to focus on being a truly outstanding medical provider. This coming from an aspiring physician-scientist, so obviously I am not partial to private practice.
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I originally had separated my final paragraph into two, and perhaps I should have kept it that way. In my effort to be brief I guess that I combined too many ideas. I can see how what I wrote can be interpreted as denigrating primary care, which I had intended to use as an example only.

While I understand the faculty's desires to push students and maximize their potential, I don't think that anyone here at HMS has trouble underachieving or being blindly happy with the status quo. Our problem with the way that the discussion was framed was that it implicitly disparaged physicians who are not engaged in some form of progressive activity. There is nothing wrong with going to work in the morning, taking care of your patients, and going home to your family at night to enjoy the fruits of your labor. That is the life of most physicians - doing honorable yeoman work to help others. Sure, that is probably not going to be our lives, but we should not judge those physicians who choose to live their lives differently.

As an addendum to that, my thoughts jumped to primary care and my classmates' passion. The concept of a "common doctor" was not limited to primary care; it was more a descriptor of a physician's professional life and practice policy rather than his specialty. In the context of the discussion I think that it applied to almost any field of medicine. We often think of PCPs as "common doctors," however, and my comment about my peers was meant to show how even "common doctors" here at HMS embrace the "clinician plus" mindset.

HST is a whole other ball game. During their first week, HST students are more-or-less explicitly instructed that they will not be "common doctors."
 
The current surgeon general is a "common doctor".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivek_Murthy

"Murthy completed his residency at Brigham and Women's Hospital and Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts.[7] Murthy has also led and managed medical care teams at Brigham and Women's Hospital for over a decade. He has trained hundreds of medical students and residents and has cared for thousands of patients as an internal medicine physician. He also continues to practice medicine.[citation needed]"
 
texasvandy said:
The current surgeon general is a "common doctor".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivek_Murthy

"Murthy completed his residency at Brigham and Women's Hospital and Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts.[7] Murthy has also led and managed medical care teams at Brigham and Women's Hospital for over a decade. He has trained hundreds of medical students and residents and has cared for thousands of patients as an internal medicine physician. He also continues to practice medicine.[citation needed]"
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Nice of you to skip the rest of the article to make your point. I would not say that an MD/MBA from Yale, who founded Doctors for America, a global physician advocacy group (as well as multiple other nonprofit business ventures) and has been involved in business consulting and national policy projects since residency to be an example of the "common doctor" we are talking about. Just because he completed residency and practiced internal medicine doesn't make him a traditional physician.
 
avgn said:
Nice of you to skip the rest of the article to make your point. I would not say that an MD/MBA from Yale, who founded Doctors for America, a global physician advocacy group (as well as multiple other nonprofit business ventures) and has been involved in business consulting and national policy projects since residency to be an example of the "common doctor" we are talking about. Just because he completed residency and practiced internal medicine doesn't make him a traditional physician.
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With your attitude towards everyone else on this thread and their opinions, maybe it is best if you do the "plus" part....
 
Neutronbomb said:
With your attitude towards everyone else on this thread and their opinions, maybe it is best if you do the "plus" part....
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You joined the site just to say this? I'm flattered :clap:
 
All right, fellow colleagues. Let's keep it classy... Perhaps it's best if some of us walk away a short moment whilst the feathers are ruffled...

Alas, I have faith that most anyone with much of an ego will surely find themselves unpleasantly knocked upon shortly after matriculating to medical school; it's easy to talk big whilst anonymous, but those which do also often indulge in obsequiousness in real life...
 
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It seems as though avgn is at the heart of feather ruffling on nearly every thread... :corny:

That being said I think everyone is more or less agreeing with each other about this particular issue, so yes, let's move on!

Less than 3 weeks everyone! Man oh man
 
carpediem22 said:
It seems as though avgn is at the heart of feather ruffling on nearly every thread... :corny:

That being said I think everyone is more or less agreeing with each other about this particular issue, so yes, let's move on!

Less than 3 weeks everyone! Man oh man
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It does appear so, doesn't it? I didn't want to name names, but...

Best to move on.
 
carpediem22 said:
It seems as though avgn is at the heart of feather ruffling on nearly every thread... :corny:

That being said I think everyone is more or less agreeing with each other about this particular issue, so yes, let's move on!
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Except...I didn't even say anything of attention value here. Someone just made an alt to come at me with a cheap jab, it seems
 
Just because he completed residency and practiced internal medicine doesn't make him a traditional physician.
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Precisely what Harvard is looking for when they want you to be clinician+ - all those accomplishments and drive to do something more than just be a "traditional physician".
 
texasvandy said:
Precisely what Harvard is looking for when they want you to be clinician+ - all those accomplishments and drive to do something more than just be a "traditional physician".
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I do not understand what you're saying...
First you argue Murthy was a common doctor. Now you're saying he isn't? lol? Or are we circlejerking again


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I think you dont know how to read. lets move on. It is a common problem with people who feel a need to respond to every post by everyone on a thread.
 
So is anyone else sitting here wondering how they make choices when it comes down to choosing people? I would LOVE to hear the debating process


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Cytokine2014 said:
So is anyone else sitting here wondering how they make choices when it comes down to choosing people? I would LOVE to hear the debating process
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u shore bout dat dough

Please not in this thread, plz
 
Well for the wait list, they apparently (can't remember the exact source of this but it was a good source from a while back) take people based on the people that drop acceptances. For example, if an athlete declines an acceptance, an athlete will be accepted off the wait list; if a research powerhouse declines, a research powerhouse gets in. So I would INFER that selecting the class boils down to literally assembling a diverse, unique, complementary class that appeals to whatever the adcom wants that day/week/month/year. Maybe if there are 20 research stars, they only take 10 one year to leave room for the guy that has godlike trombone playing skills… Essentially, seems like even if you don't get in, it doesn't mean you weren't as good as those that got in, just that you weren't what Harvard was looking for that year. To take it another step, I would imagine that if I was the adcom, I would make a pool of applicants that I'd be happy to have in the class post-interview (academically, socially, hobbies etc qualified) then start by looking for those applicants that are REALLY unique (the olympian etc) then finish up with the strong applicants, whether it be founders of nonpofit organisations or research superstars. I bet you get tagged post-review by some phrase like "research star" or "Olympian" since it would be a pain to review all the wait listed apps again to find that research star, etc.

Disclaimer: I have no actual idea and the above is just my guess incase you didn't read that it was all an inference.
 
MaxPlancker said:
Well for the wait list, they apparently (can't remember the exact source of this but it was a good source from a while back) take people based on the people that drop acceptances. For example, if an athlete declines an acceptance, an athlete will be accepted off the wait list; if a research powerhouse declines, a research powerhouse gets in. So I would INFER that selecting the class boils down to literally assembling a diverse, unique, complementary class that appeals to whatever the adcom wants that day/week/month/year. Maybe if there are 20 research stars, they only take 10 one year to leave room for the guy that has godlike trombone playing skills… Essentially, seems like even if you don't get in, it doesn't mean you weren't as good as those that got in, just that you weren't what Harvard was looking for that year. To take it another step, I would imagine that if I was the adcom, I would make a pool of applicants that I'd be happy to have in the class post-interview (academically, socially, hobbies etc qualified) then start by looking for those applicants that are REALLY unique (the olympian etc) then finish up with the strong applicants, whether it be founders of nonpofit organisations or research superstars. I bet you get tagged post-review by some phrase like "research star" or "Olympian" since it would be a pain to review all the wait listed apps again to find that research star, etc.

Disclaimer: I have no actual idea and the above is just my guess incase you didn't read that it was all an inference.
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Seems reasonable! I just think it's very interesting because there are so many different personalities evaluating applicants, and so many different personalities going in… It really is just kind of a fascinating process.


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That's probably a more accurate statement... Hang in there! 🙂
 
Honestly, this is one of the few schools in which I don't feel super antsy to hear back from. I think there's no chance, and am still honored just to have had the chance to visit. Still can't believe I got an interview...
 
phuynh94 said:
Honestly, this is one of the few schools in which I don't feel super antsy to hear back from. I think there's no chance, and am still honored just to have had the chance to visit. Still can't believe I got an interview...
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Lol you have a 3.98 GPA, a 39 MCAT, and acceptances at 2 other top 10 med schools and you say you have "no chance".
Psh
 
theboatman said:
Lol you have a 3.98 GPA, a 39 MCAT, and acceptances at 2 other top 10 med schools and you say you have "no chance".
Psh
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Oh gosh, I promise that wasn't a humble brag. I don't think anyone expects to get in. It's just that places like HMS (and other Ivies) seem to like really pointy applicants. My CV, while more on the "well-rounded" side, can look pretty check-boxy compared to some of my fellow interviewees. (This isn't me just saying this; these were comments mentioned in my WAMC thread).

Regardless, the next couple weeks will be interesting!
 
phuynh94 said:
Oh gosh, I promise that wasn't a humble brag. I don't think anyone expects to get in. It's just that places like HMS (and other Ivies) seem to like really pointy applicants. My CV, while more on the "well-rounded" side, can look pretty check-boxy compared to some of my fellow interviewees. (This isn't me just saying this; these were comments mentioned in my WAMC thread).

Regardless, the next couple weeks will be interesting!
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Phuynh94, you seem like such a sweetie that even though I know how impressive you are, I didn't interpret that as a humble brag at all 🙂


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theboatman said:
So are we sure decisions will be released March 3?
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Nope we're not. I was confident about this but I just spoke to an HMS student tonight who's on the admissions committee and he said they did not decide yet. He added that it'll most likely be a Monday, which makes me raise an eyebrow because that's not what the historic trend on SDN shows. Who knows? I'll report back when he has a final answer for me.
 
theboatman said:
Lol you have a 3.98 GPA, a 39 MCAT, and acceptances at 2 other top 10 med schools and you say you have "no chance".
Psh
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And I would argue that this is the one school where that stuff really doesn't matter after the interview. They have priorities that we do not know about, and they can choose people as they see fit. Very hard to guess with a 25% post-II acceptance rate.
 
I know it wasn't a humble brag haha.
It's great to see how freakin' humble some of us pre meds can be...but theres a point on the humble scale where you start to enter the complete lack of confidence territory.
And that's where I think a bit of faith and credence is important.
 
avgn said:
Nope we're not. I was confident about this but I just spoke to an HMS student tonight who's on the admissions committee and he said they did not decide yet. He added that it'll most likely be a Monday, which makes me raise an eyebrow because that's not what the historic trend on SDN shows. Who knows? I'll report back when he has a final answer for me.
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Did he mean they have not decided on a decision date yet, or that they're still deliberating on applications?
 
Edit: Should a request to withdraw your application be sent to [email protected]? This is the only email address I was given on official correspondence.
 
panda16 said:
Edit: Should a request to withdraw your application be sent to [email protected]? This is the only email address I was given on official correspondence.
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Yeah that's the email they tell everyone who wants to withdraw from Harvard to use..
Be careful when you send it because their server gets really busy with all of the withdrawal request emails they are receiving
 
theboatman said:
Yeah that's the email they tell everyone who wants to withdraw from Harvard to use..
Be careful when you send it because their server gets really busy with all of the withdrawal request emails they are receiving
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Thank you very much!
 
This begs the question.. Why are people withdrawing?
 
mscs2014 said:
HMS is done interviewing, some people prefer to send a rejection to a school rather than receive one from it.
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and for financially minded students, many scholarships have come out so there's no point in going to a school with no chance of merit aid
 
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