2019-2020 Central Florida

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Would love any insight into what it means to not receive a pre-II rejection and still be on AORTA? Pretty sure UCF's interview season ends in February, and people receiving II's end of November were scheduling for January so........................ lol

Knightdoc is on target. What this means it that the Committee continues to review the EFI pool for possible selection there are far less interview seats available now that there were in the fall. They have identified several applications that they have to determined to be less competitive and identified them to be released from the pool. I anticipate that more will be released as we move toward the final interview group that will be selected in mid-February. We were blessed to have another very strong applicant pool this year that will likely place us as one of the strongest Florida programs by every applicant measure; and the strongest program by graduate outcomes based on 3-year national match data.

While strong metrics are good, we want to ensure that every applicant that we admit will have also demonstrated a consistent motivation for medicine, humanism, and teamwork over time. These things are what has provided our classes with a strong spirit of collaboration and very strong residency opportunities.
 
Knightdoc is on target. What this means it that the Committee continues to review the EFI pool for possible selection there are far less interview seats available now that there were in the fall. They have identified several applications that they have to determined to be less competitive and identified them to be released from the pool. I anticipate that more will be released as we move toward the final interview group that will be selected in mid-February. We were blessed to have another very strong applicant pool this year that will likely place us as one of the strongest Florida programs by every applicant measure; and the strongest program by graduate outcomes based on 3-year national match data.

While strong metrics are good, we want to ensure that every applicant that we admit will have also demonstrated a consistent motivation for medicine, humanism, and teamwork over time. These things are what has provided our classes with a strong spirit of collaboration and very strong residency opportunities.
Thank you very much!
 
Hi! Does anyone remember when second look weekend is? Also I know that some schools pay for a hotel stay and meals during second look weekend...does UCF do this? After this interview season, I'm on a tight budget lol.
 
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1) March 30, I think
2) Not sure
March 30 is correct. A save-the-date email can be expected by the end of this month, probably earlier. We typically pay for one night on a double occupancy basis. Meals for the 2nd Look day will be provided without charge.

It is a great day to reacquaint yourself with the program and meet with lots of students, faculty, and leadership, as well as many of your future classmates.

We also provide a program for family members during the morning that will introduce them to the program, the facility, and give them a chance spouses and others.
 
II call earlier this week. I’m OOS and picked a date in mid-February even though there were some earlier dates available. Can anyone comment on the decision timeline post-interview? Would love to go here but hope a late interview won’t kill me
 
March 30 is a Monday.

Is second look day held in a weekend or week day?

Have to ask for time off from work in advance if it is a Monday.
 
March 30 is a Monday.

Is second look day held in a weekend or week day?

Have to ask for time off from work in advance if it is a Monday.
Well, @REL says it's March 30th, and he should know! If in doubt, before taking time off, why not just call the school rather than rely on whatever answer you get here, especially if @REL's answer isn't good enough? 🙂
 
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Just goes to show how unpredictable this cycle is. I've heard nothing from schools I expected to hear from (FSU) and flat out rejections from others (UCF). But schools which I assumed would not only reject me, but laugh at my application have interviewed me...? Applying broadly is the best advice anyone can get. Especially in Florida smh :meh:
Yea I never would have guessed Indiana would show me love but here I am. Hopefully UCF shows me some love because I love some of the interdisciplinary work being done at the school.
 
At least we have FSU which I think is pretty much exclusively FL students.

I get it though since I'm sure it represents a pretty big revenue jump for the schools.
I honestly don't think it's a money grab, because their accept rates are still around double IS compared to OOS. It's just that FL has a really low IS matriculation rate, which only means a relatively high number of IS applicants per available FL seat. I think the tuition differential is made up by state subsidies; I don't think the schools actually make more at the end of the day from OOS tuition.
 
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I honestly don't think it's a money grab, because their accept rates are still around double IS compared to OOS. It's just that FL has a really low IS matriculation rate, which only means a relatively high number of IS applicants per available FL seat. I think the tuition differential is made up by state subsidies; I don't think the schools actually make more at the end of the day from OOS tuition.

Its pretty high OOS (~30% applicants) compared to other states. I honestly havent been able to see matriculated.
 
Anyone know when UCF sends out financial aid packages? This school is my first choice, but it doesn't make much financial sense considering I got accepted into my state school. Would love to fine out what I'll actually be paying so I can start planning.
 
At least for me the graded pre clinicals is a big bummer from an otherwise great program.
I understand your concern. Before entering, this was my main point of dispute with UCF's system.

I'm going to break this down a little bit because I now understand it even moreso than I did when I was an applicant.

Now being a little deeper in the process, I can say it's going to come down to how well you are at just doing your thing and making your own process. Resources here are abundant. Support here is phenomenal from staff to faculty. The overall environment is laid back. That being said, depending on how badly you want AOA, the grades will play an increasingly important role in your tenure here. The only reasons I see anyone prioritizing this is for attaining an ultra competitive residency.

If you look at statistics, the NRMP charting outcomes show 40% of the incoming resident population in orthopaedic surgery having AOA, 16% of unmatched ortho applicants held AOA status. Derm is 49%, 22% unmatched. Neuro-Sx is 32%, 21% unmatched. Interventional Rads is 30.5%, 12% unmatched. Plastic Sx 44.5%, 12.5% unmatched. Note that the unmatched percentage are only displayed to show AOA does not guarantee program acceptance.

Comparing that to less competitive programs and ignoring unmatched, you see Gen Sx has 18.7% matched, OB/Gyn 16.2%, IM 16.7%, EM 12.4%, Anesthesia 10.5%.

So you see that AOA definitely helps with acquiring competitive residencies. While that's true, the preclinical grades don't hurt your application. I can attest that you can do well on tests because we are not graded on curves. If 90% of the class gets 90% of questions correct, 90% of the class gets an A. You can still get an A without being AOA due to not being in the top quartile of the class (note that AOA classification also takes into account extracurricular activities, not just pleclinical grades). Getting an A in this respect actually helps in that you're doing academically well but may not be focusing on minutiae that gets you in the top quartile of test scores.

With all that said, being here at UCF has given me the opportunity to speak with many former residency program directors and some current program directors. While they come from both competitive and less competitive residencies, from surgical and non-surgical subspecialties, one thing remains constant across their advice to students. They all hammer home the inconvenient truth: Step is pretty much the end all be all and really it's the only thing we should be focusing on during our preclinical years. Everything else during preclinical years is not only secondary in importance but was not seen as a requirement for their consideration of applicants. Grades aren't going to matter much except for the hyper competitive residencies (i.e. don't get a C in Anatomy if you're wanting to do ortho). And, honestly, Anatomy isn't something that benefits from a P/F system anyway since even small details are beneficial for surgical subspecialties.

So why am I writing all of this up?

To tell you that the preclinical grading system carries as much importance as you give it. You can ignore the grading scheme, study using your preferred resources, do your own thing, prepare for Step, and take the tests as they come. Or you can worry about scoring well on tests, get an A, stick to class resources with a few outside resources mixed in, and still do well on Step. Both paths will get you where you want to be. Focusing on tests and getting A's just gets you more likely to be selected for AOA.

50% or more of all of the competitive residency residents were non-AOA. Let that sink in and, remember, it is not a requirement.

Hopefully this helps a few of you make your decisions on where to attend. Best of luck!

Data Source: NRMP
 
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I understand your concern. Before entering, this was my main point of dispute with UCF's system.

I'm going to break this down a little bit because I now understand it even moreso than I did when I was an applicant.

Now being a little deeper in the process, I can say it's going to come down to how well you are at just doing your thing and making your own process. Resources here are abundant. Support here is phenomenal from staff to faculty. The overall environment is laid back. That being said, depending on how badly you want AOA, the grades will play an increasingly important role in your tenure here. The only reasons I see anyone prioritizing this is for attaining an ultra competitive residency.

If you look at statistics, the NRMP charting outcomes show 40% of the incoming resident population in orthopaedic surgery having AOA, 16% of unmatched ortho applicants held AOA status. Derm is 49%, 22% unmatched. Neuro-Sx is 32%, 21% unmatched. Interventional Rads is 30.5%, 12% unmatched. Plastic Sx 44.5%, 12.5% unmatched. Note that the unmatched percentage are only displayed to show AOA does not guarantee program acceptance.

Comparing that to less competitive programs and ignoring unmatched, you see Gen Sx has 18.7% matched, OB/Gyn 16.2%, IM 16.7%, EM 12.4%, Anesthesia 10.5%.

So you see that AOA definitely helps with acquiring competitive residencies. While that's true, the preclinical grades don't hurt your application. I can attest that you can do well on tests because we are not graded on curves. If 90% of the class gets 90% of questions correct, 90% of the class gets an A. You can still get an A without being AOA due to not being in the top quartile of the class (note that AOA classification also takes into account extracurricular activities, not just pleclinical grades). Getting an A in this respect actually helps in that you're doing academically well but may not be focusing on minutiae that gets you in the top quartile of test scores.

With all that said, being here at UCF has given me the opportunity to speak with many former residency program directors and some current program directors. While they come from both competitive and less competitive residencies, from surgical and non-surgical subspecialties, one thing remains constant across their advice to students. They all hammer home the inconvenient truth: Step is pretty much the end all be all and really it's the only thing we should be focusing on during our preclinical years. Everything else during preclinical years is not only secondary in importance but was not seen as a requirement for their consideration of applicants. Grades aren't going to matter much except for the hyper competitive residencies (i.e. don't get a C in Anatomy if you're wanting to do ortho). And, honestly, Anatomy isn't something that benefits from a P/F system anyway since even small details are beneficial for surgical subspecialties.

So why am I writing all of this up?

To tell you that the preclinical grading system carries as much importance as you give it. You can ignore the grading scheme, study using your preferred resources, do your own thing, prepare for Step, and take the tests as they come. Or you can worry about scoring well on tests, get an A, stick to class resources with a few outside resources mixed in, and still do well on Step. Both paths will get you where you want to be. Focusing on tests and getting A's just gets you more likely to be selected for AOA.

50% or more of all of the competitive residency residents were non-AOA. Let that sink in and, remember, it is not a requirement.

Hopefully this helps a few of you make your decisions on where to attend. Best of luck!

Data Source: NRMP

There are great advantages for a tiered grading systems for medical programs if they are used in a non-competitive educational environment. This is especially true in a medical school class where all of the members have survived a very competitive application process. The program has identified each member to interview, that applicant has chosen to interview, the admissions committee makes in-depth review and then makes offers to those who seem to have the desire to attend and have demonstrated desired characteristics. For us, my go-to statement is that we will see a multitude of applicants who will be able to complete the academics of the curriculum, that is a given. They will also likely demonstrate standardized test-taking skills will not be a liability to them. The difference then is the demonstration of desired motivations over time that a program wants to see in their student body while in medical school. When you get to the interview stage, it means that they are not terribly concerned with your chances to graduate and they are really looking for "fit" and motivations to be a physician and to attend that program.

For the student in the program a tiered grading system is good when you do not compare students against one-another and set the grading scale according to student performance (pretty much like undergrad). In our system we are happy that you are passing and will offer applicants an "intervention" if they would like to do better. The tiered system here simply allows you to understand the level at which you are performing. It helps you to determine how much you want to "give" to "get." If you are happy, continue on, if you are not pleased and want to strive for something more you can do it. We have a very effective Student Academic Support Services (SASS) office dedicated to helping those that want to do better. They can assist with test-taking skills and other educational strategies, they are also there for you for any other discussions that you would like to have to intervene if YOU want it. They also have lots of books on most topics taught in medical school for you to check out as well as books to help you prepare for the national board exams. They oversee the student Peer-Academic-Coaching (PAC) program that has been used by most students to chat about and examine academic topics where you might want to gain more depth of understanding. PAC's are free to our students and can be one-on-one, small groups, or large groups. A vast majority of our students have a PAC to guide them though the tough material and help them to prepare for exams if wanted. The PAC program is one of the reasons for student happiness and support. Many programs will provide such services only to students who are struggling which can put such assistance in a negative light. Since I also spent my time doubling as the Registrar at the COM, I can tell you with strong assurance that there are very few "C" students in our program. A tiered system of grading is good for the student when being compared to students in other programs.

The tiered grading system is also good for getting residency positions as well as research opportunities that will help you get into those residencies are ultra competitive. Yes, your Step scores (1 and 2) are used for cut-offs for residencies, but so too are med school grades. Like getting into med schools your metrics are a factor in the decision to interview. Where med schools also focus heavily on the demonstrated motivations (volunteer activities, teamwork, etc.), residency programs are almost totally focused on metrics to offer interviews. Applicants to medical school have access to MSAR data that will show you the average class matriculation data and you probably use this information to narrow your decisions for accepting interviews as well as making that final decision of where to go for your medical school education. You should look at that information, but for making your final decision to attend a medical school should be based on the performance of that medical program in producing residents, ie. the outcome data for that medical program for producing residents. Unfortunately the STEP scores are not publicly available so you cannot find these scores and the NRMP match data are also not publicly available. You can usually find Match lists at the medical school site and you can spend a lot of time comparing schools that way; what residency type, where, etc. You often hear about some of this on interview day; especially on interview day - isnt it amazing that ALL MD programs say that they have a Step I score above the national average? I thought that an average meant some were above the mid point, and some below. I have kept track of the med school residency lists in our state and I can tell you that over the last two years, in looking at the nine traditionally highly desired and most difficult to get into specialties UCF is the top public program in the state. I can also tell you that the NRMP 3-year data for Step I, Step II, student volunteerism, and student research in medical school are all above the 75% in the nation. They are enough over the 75% that we are likely to be in the top 20 MD programs in the nation by way of residency outcomes.

Finally, there as been some chatter over the last 3-4 years about the Step going to a P/F grade, and the chatter gets louder each year. I suspect they will eventually do this. Consider what residencies will default to when they are inviting applicants to interview. Remember that the residency programs are not holistic. A few programs have already returned to a graded system, others have talked about it. You be the judge.

That should be enough to chew on. Happy to provide more.
 
There are great advantages for a tiered grading systems for medical programs if they are used in a non-competitive educational environment. This is especially true in a medical school class where all of the members have survived a very competitive application process. The program has identified each member to interview, that applicant has chosen to interview, the admissions committee makes in-depth review and then makes offers to those who seem to have the desire to attend and have demonstrated desired characteristics. For us, my go-to statement is that we will see a multitude of applicants who will be able to complete the academics of the curriculum, that is a given. They will also likely demonstrate standardized test-taking skills will not be a liability to them. The difference then is the demonstration of desired motivations over time that a program wants to see in their student body while in medical school. When you get to the interview stage, it means that they are not terribly concerned with your chances to graduate and they are really looking for "fit" and motivations to be a physician and to attend that program.

For the student in the program a tiered grading system is good when you do not compare students against one-another and set the grading scale according to student performance (pretty much like undergrad). In our system we are happy that you are passing and will offer applicants an "intervention" if they would like to do better. The tiered system here simply allows you to understand the level at which you are performing. It helps you to determine how much you want to "give" to "get." If you are happy, continue on, if you are not pleased and want to strive for something more you can do it. We have a very effective Student Academic Support Services (SASS) office dedicated to helping those that want to do better. They can assist with test-taking skills and other educational strategies, they are also there for you for any other discussions that you would like to have to intervene if YOU want it. They also have lots of books on most topics taught in medical school for you to check out as well as books to help you prepare for the national board exams. They oversee the student Peer-Academic-Coaching (PAC) program that has been used by most students to chat about and examine academic topics where you might want to gain more depth of understanding. PAC's are free to our students and can be one-on-one, small groups, or large groups. A vast majority of our students have a PAC to guide them though the tough material and help them to prepare for exams if wanted. The PAC program is one of the reasons for student happiness and support. Many programs will provide such services only to students who are struggling which can put such assistance in a negative light. Since I also spent my time doubling as the Registrar at the COM, I can tell you with strong assurance that there are very few "C" students in our program. A tiered system of grading is good for the student when being compared to students in other programs.

The tiered grading system is also good for getting residency positions as well as research opportunities that will help you get into those residencies are ultra competitive. Yes, your Step scores (1 and 2) are used for cut-offs for residencies, but so too are med school grades. Like getting into med schools your metrics are a factor in the decision to interview. Where med schools also focus heavily on the demonstrated motivations (volunteer activities, teamwork, etc.), residency programs are almost totally focused on metrics to offer interviews. Applicants to medical school have access to MSAR data that will show you the average class matriculation data and you probably use this information to narrow your decisions for accepting interviews as well as making that final decision of where to go for your medical school education. You should look at that information, but for making your final decision to attend a medical school should be based on the performance of that medical program in producing residents, ie. the outcome data for that medical program for producing residents. Unfortunately the STEP scores are not publicly available so you cannot find these scores and the NRMP match data are also not publicly available. You can usually find Match lists at the medical school site and you can spend a lot of time comparing schools that way; what residency type, where, etc. You often hear about some of this on interview day; especially on interview day - isnt it amazing that ALL MD programs say that they have a Step I score above the national average? I thought that an average meant some were above the mid point, and some below. I have kept track of the med school residency lists in our state and I can tell you that over the last two years, in looking at the nine traditionally highly desired and most difficult to get into specialties UCF is the top public program in the state. I can also tell you that the NRMP 3-year data for Step I, Step II, student volunteerism, and student research in medical school are all above the 75% in the nation. They are enough over the 75% that we are likely to be in the top 20 MD programs in the nation by way of residency outcomes.

Finally, there as been some chatter over the last 3-4 years about the Step going to a P/F grade, and the chatter gets louder each year. I suspect they will eventually do this. Consider what residencies will default to when they are inviting applicants to interview. Remember that the residency programs are not holistic. A few programs have already returned to a graded system, others have talked about it. You be the judge.

That should be enough to chew on. Happy to provide more.

I'm utterly confused by how the step can become P/F. That's like the MCAT becoming P/F but honestly residencies care about Step 1 scores more than medical schools care about MCAT. How can such a drastic shift happen to the biggest part of a student's application?
 
That would suck if Step 1 became P/F. If that happens then all of the competitive residences will go to people from bigger name schools. Step allows people from mid and low tier schools to distinguish themselves. If Step does become P/F then it would be an advantage to go to a graded school for preclinicals so you can distinguish yourself in some way.
 
Does anyone know when financial aid packages are released? UCF is my first choice, but going to my state school would make a lot more sense financially. So I'd like to see what my financial aid is going to look like as soon as possible to start planning and making decisions.
 
I'm utterly confused by how the step can become P/F. That's like the MCAT becoming P/F but honestly residencies care about Step 1 scores more than medical schools care about MCAT. How can such a drastic shift happen to the biggest part of a student's application?

The Step folks never wanted it to be used as a metric in the application process to residency. Their argument to go to P/F, which several programs support, is on-going. IF this does happen in the near future the Step will be eliminated as a way to help residencies to decide of the applicant's testing/knowledge level. Pair that with P/F grades from med school, what then is the default? The new "Dean's Letter (MSPE)" has also been paired way down to essentially a mechanized data report. The residency programs have pushed for and now receive an MSPE that is primarily a heavily data formatted report. Little on the MSPE includes actual paragraphs of information (just a very few short answer sections). So with P/F med school grades, possible P/F Step, and limited textual input from med school programs there is little information about the applicant. They certainly have limited information related to holistics in selecting applicants for interview; they continually ignore the holistic factors in spite of strong influences to do so by the AAMC.

What is the final take away?
Med schools: Seeing this possibility in the future a limited number of med programs have moved back to, or are planning to move to a graduated P/F system (A,B,C, or something similar) to help their applicants.
Residency programs: What will they look at for selecting applicants for interview if all is P/F? Presumably they will value their historical experiences with previous applicants from a med program. They also have access to the NRMP data for each specialty for each program, presumably they would default to that as a primary tool (they probably use it now). This will be very good for UCF since we are in the upper echelons of the NRMP 3-year data reports and we place applicants in the top programs across the nation in all specialties consistently.

One final note, there was a comment about the Step scores. The old word was that Step 1 is important, it is. Step 2 is now at least as important. Applicants are able to take it earlier now and it is now IN PLAY and used to confirm or even improve what may have been a weaker Step 1 score. Step 2 speaks more to clinical capabilities and is more relevant to the residency programs anyway. Makes sense, at least for as long as a numerical score is the product of the exam.
 
Does anyone know when financial aid packages are released? UCF is my first choice, but going to my state school would make a lot more sense financially. So I'd like to see what my financial aid is going to look like as soon as possible to start planning and making decisions.

Normally this information gets released from March through April, maybe into early May. I would suggest that you begin to cope with the fact that most med students will have "bought a house" paying for medical school ($200-300k in debt). Financial aid will in the form or federal financial aid will be the main vehicle for paying for medical school. Without getting into a long conversation, the feds also have some very beneficial repayment programs on the back end based on your specialty. Contact a med FA office for a deeper discussion this.

There is also the HPSP (military) and NHSC (primary care-underserved areas) federal programs that will pay for your medical education and provide you with a monthly stipend while in school. The payback here usually a year-for-year service repayment after residency. Again there are lots of details. These two programs provide you with debt-free medical school and expenses, yes you will have to repay 2-4 years (how long will it take to repay your $200-300k?). Finally you can join the HPSP or NHSC programs upon med graduation and they will give
 
What’s the consensus on sending a letter of intent here? If you actually intend to drop other offers. Should it be sent after interviewing before the initial decision or saved for the waitlist?
 
What’s the consensus on sending a letter of intent here? If you actually intend to drop other offers. Should it be sent after interviewing before the initial decision or saved for the waitlist?
LOI's should be saved for until AFTER they make a decision about your status. So for example, if someone gets waitlisted, that is when they should send an LOI.
 
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Cool, thanks for the input! Since UCF has a ranked waitlist, can a LOI still make a difference?
I have no idea :/... sorry, maybe someone can hop in provide some advice???
At my interview, Laurel told me that updates sent post-interview must be sent prior to the committee meeting in order to hold weight in the decision to either accept or waitlist. However, she said that if put on the waitlist, that further updates could help move your spot within the waitlist. They also highlighted the fact that they highly valued continued interest. So a letter if intent or even a letter of interest would be a good idea in my opinion, but maybe REL can offer his take. They seemed to really really value applicants who are committed to UCF.

I actually sent a pretty "strong" loi before I was interview andI guess it worked haha
 


At my interview, Laurel told me that updates sent post-interview must be sent prior to the committee meeting in order to hold weight in the decision to either accept or waitlist. However, she said that if put on the waitlist, that further updates could help move your spot within the waitlist. They also highlighted the fact that they highly valued continued interest. So a letter if intent or even a letter of interest would be a good idea in my opinion, but maybe REL can offer his take. They seemed to really really value applicants who are committed to UCF.

I actually sent a pretty "strong" loi before I was interview andI guess it worked haha
You are welcome to update your file with a letter of interest or letter of intent at your UCF MD Program Application Dashboard AND also sent that same item via email to the Admissions Office. The dashboard services the committee and the email to admissions services the admissions office.

In my 24 years as an admissions director I have never put much faith in a letter of interest, and only slightly more faith in a letter of intent. This speaks to two things - applicant honesty/integrity (ahem....too many times applicants send these to multiple programs - you would be surprised at how many of these we get with another program's name still in them!!); and applicant mind changes (often due to an offer they did not expect).

If you are going to send a letter of intent to enroll, mean it!! It could be that if you send one and then reneg, med schools will eventually know where you matriculated. They could tip of your med school that you were not professional in the admissions cycle. Professionalism is a big part of becoming a physician, it is possible that your new med school student affairs might have a discussion with you about such actions as an applicant.

As for letters of interest, they are probably best sent to get an interview offer. Make no mistake, most programs want you to go the the program that you believe is best for you. We want to have those conversations with you. If you are currently accepted to UCF, but really hope to get an offer from school X we want to know that, it helps us project our acceptance listing. We want to be transparent with our system to applicants, and we would like the same from applicants. The more we both know, the better off everyone is.

It wont be too long before AMCAS send you the emails about narrowing down your acceptances to three programs or less, and then one. They will also activate the Plan to Enroll (PTE) option in your application. I dont have much use for the PTE, I feel that it actually restricts applicant choice.
 
@REL thank you so much for your willingness to answer our questions so thoroughly! I really appreciate it. Would you have any insight into when the not yet accepted emails will be coming out for the month of January? Thank you!!
 
@REL thank you so much for your willingness to answer our questions so thoroughly! I really appreciate it. Would you have any insight into when the not yet accepted emails will be coming out for the month of January? Thank you!!

I appreciate your inquiry, from what I can tell the last update went out December 17. With the university being closed for the end of December not a lot of "operational" interview/committee time has passed, thus there has not been too much change since that last update. I do anticipate that the next update will be sent late next week (end of Jan) or first week of Feb.
 
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Sorry to hear about all those that are rejected, hopefully you get good news from other schools soon! Do you mind telling me if it was via email or just updated on your portal?