A Lighthouse, A Man, A City...A BioShock WW Game

[Animal Midwife]

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Oh good lord. Is this from her ****ing up timing literally years ago when I played, or has it happened more than once now.

The latter. Every noob generation automatically knows what it is because they've experienced/witnessed it themselves.

Please explain not only your 360 on me, but your supreme enthusiasm for up to 2 villagers to die with a wolf? Or were you seriously wolf reading all 3 of us? Did you really think the 3 wagons were all wolves? Especially with the mechanics theory you guys had? You had no thought in your mind about about a villager being silenced after mkg?

If my village reads weren't reading you so village....

AM, genny, Dina, are you really sure about Lawper?

And Lawper if you're village, you're forcing me to have to overlook some funny thinking and anti-village play. Knock it off.

I still feel pretty sure.

AM what is your general opinion of ties? Of a 3way? What do you think about this particular tie? What would you like to see in future games?

I think ties should only intentionally be made if there's strong reason to think all tied parties have strong wolf equity.

This tie was fine. Though kata not contributing is annoying since her reactions would have been meaningful too.

In future games, I still only want ties on strong wolf candidates instead of just for lulz.

 

[supershorty]

Given a typical 1:4 ratio of wolf:villager (is it still around there for SDN games?)

It's been 1:4-1:5 in the games I've played, so don't think this has changed.

 

[samac]

The latter. Every noob generation automatically knows what it is because they've experienced/witnessed it themselves.

I still feel pretty sure.

I think ties should only intentionally be made if there's strong reason to think all tied parties have strong wolf equity.

This tie was fine. Though kata not contributing is annoying since her reactions would have been meaningful too.

In future games, I still only want ties on strong wolf candidates instead of just for lulz.

Just so we’re clear Kata wasn’t silenced.
she just went poof which is why I’m here now.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Just so we’re clear Kata wasn’t silenced.
she just went poof which is why I’m here now.

Good to know.

 

[kaydubs]

Night 4

A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting and sweating as you run through my corridors.

She had been so careful. Used the tricks she knew, resisted the ol' signature. Brute force isn't always the answer, is it? Flashing lights caught her attention. Sighing, she raised her hands in surrender.

~~~

Carry your memories, they are a heavy burden.

The bot flew toward him, buzzing angrily. His hands shook with rage. Where was a gun when you needed it?

He ducked into another corridor. Several cameras seemed to redirect their lenses toward him. Ugh.

~~~

Say what you want about Andrew Ryan, he did create a society where the rich could get richer, and I've certainly benefitted from that. My loyalty to Ryan puts me on the side opposing Frank Fontaine, and I'll use my financial means to help bring him down.

He pocketed some cash that he pulled from someone's wallet. Every little bit helps. He'd count it later. A tell-tale click sounded behind him. He weaved and dodged but it seemed he couldn't out-run fate.

Dead is @genny , who was Robby Sinclair, a Wealthy villager.

It is now Day 5. Deadline is tomorrow, March 10th, at 10pm EST.

17 players remain

Neptune's Bounty
1. @Animal Midwife
2. @Barkley13
4. @Dinashadow
5. @pawprintsandponytails
17. @Cyndia

Arcadia
6. @Trilt
7. @holdthemayo
8. @Crayola227
9. @vetschoolsletmeinplease

Fort Frolic
11. @supershorty
12. @Lawpy

Hephaestus
overcome by lava

Olympus Heights
19. @Ms Procrastinator
22. LaineyLou ---> @jaboo

Point Prometheus
23. katashark ---> @samac
24. @Chaostrodon
25. @LetItSnow
26. @Lupin21

Dead
alissa - vanillager
april - village thief
barks - village weapons expert
sunshine - vanillager
zenge - wolf seer
Vis - village tracker
mkg - village protector
sporty - village blocker
alleycat - wolf blocker
genny - wealthy villager

Subs:
--

Tots:
1. @Doggo Labs
2. @kraskadva
3. @ArteryStudyPainting​

 

[supershorty]

A tell-tale click sounded behind him. He weaved and dodged but it seemed he couldn't out-run fate.

Dead is @genny , who was Robby Sinclair, a Wealthy villager.​

Interesting. So there have been multiple kills on both odd nights so far, that were stabbings (plus the gun N1), and both even nights have had 1 or 1 attempt that we know of (assuming there was an attempt on Dina N2 like we talked about yesterday). This doesn't sound like a stabbing.

 

[Dinashadow]

I seered a neutral last night so now we know those exist

 

[Dinashadow]

Makes multiple wolf factions unlikely I think

 

[Animal Midwife]

Yeet Cyndia

 

[Animal Midwife]

Interesting. So there have been multiple kills on both odd nights so far, that were stabbings (plus the gun N1), and both even nights have had 1 or 1 attempt that we know of (assuming there was an attempt on Dina N2 like we talked about yesterday). This doesn't sound like a stabbing.

Probably switched up which wolf was killing.

 

[WildZoo]

Day 3 writeup has been updated

 

[samac]

I dont have time right now to do the review I was wanting give that a patient just lost their ****.
One thing I considered in tot chat (talking to myself in the void. Without Lawpy there it was pretty damn quiet) is that what if there is a wolf in each faction? I know it was explored previously briefly and one faction is now gone, but if it’s true Cyndia moved factions and she would be the last man standing in that group.

 

[Barkley13]

I dont have time right now to do the review I was wanting give that a patient just lost their ****.
One thing I considered in tot chat (talking to myself in the void. Without Lawpy there it was pretty damn quiet) is that what if there is a wolf in each faction? I know it was explored previously briefly and one faction is now gone, but if it’s true Cyndia moved factions and she would be the last man standing in that group.

I feel like that’s been proposed in every game that’s ever had groups and has never been true

 

[samac]

I feel like that’s been proposed in every game that’s ever had groups and has never been true

It is also my first game with groups.

 

[Barkley13]

It is also my first game with groups.

Yeah I’m just saying historically that’s never been a thing so I doubt it is now

 

[vetschoolsletmeinplease]

Lw tunneling?

Lw=light weight

 

[samac]

I’m going to start here because that last minute not real vote switch felt like a great way to try and gain village cred.
yeet chaos

 

[vetschoolsletmeinplease]

I’m also rounding this morning and will be back sometime around noon to do my catch up while eating lunch.
excited to be here.
Also, I love games with PMs. I literally voted to yeet FTF once because he wouldn’t talk to me.

Samacs #1 rule: if you ghost her she’ll yeet you 😂😂

 

[Crayola227]

Seriously?

Why is it a problem I want to know where people's heads are at?

Wolf perspectives even on actual villagers has been a great way to catch them at times.

 

[WildZoo]

Day 4 writeup is now updated

 

[Crayola227]

What else does hm mean?

Could mean a lot of things.

 

[Animal Midwife]

I’m going to start here because that last minute not real vote switch felt like a great way to try and gain village cred.
yeet chaos

Hm. I think I'd like to hear all your wolf reads when you come back.

 

[Crayola227]

I seered a neutral last night so now we know those exist

Neutrals don't have to die, correct? We're really sure about this?

 

[Animal Midwife]

Neutrals don't have to die, correct? We're really sure about this?

It depends on the game. I've played with wincon-exclusive neutrals and wincon-inclusive neutrals (though the latter seems significantly more common). The only confirmed thing is that they're 3p and not a wolf. Therefore not a top concern especially since we're not in an endgame situation.

 

[Crayola227]

It depends on the game. I've played with wincon-exclusive neutrals and wincon-inclusive neutrals (though the latter seems significantly more common). The only confirmed thing is that they're 3p and not a wolf. Therefore not a top concern especially since we're not in an endgame situation.

If they're a wincon exclusive neutral, how does that make them neutral? By definition doesn't that make them 3P/Chaos?

 

[Animal Midwife]

If they're a wincon exclusive neutral, how does that make them neutral? By definition doesn't that make them 3P/Chaos?

Neutral is just one of the arbitrary words we use to signify 3p. There's no definition for neutral or chaos outside of "neither villager nor wolf".

 

[Dinashadow]

Neutrals don't have to die, correct? We're really sure about this?

Yeah I'm not sure what to do about it or when/if I should out them and leave them for the wolves. I was hoping to get some input on thread on the matter.

They aren't a wolf though so I'd rather not vote them out today when there are other pressing matters.

 

[Crayola227]

Neutral is just one of the arbitrary words we use to signify 3p. There's no definition for neutral or chaos outside of "neither villager nor wolf".

I've read pretty heavily on the subject, and if they have a wincon exclusionary to either villager or wolf they are NOT true neutral.

 

[Crayola227]

Yeah I'm not sure what to do about it or when/if I should out them and leave them for the wolves. I was hoping to get some input on thread on the matter.

They aren't a wolf though so I'd rather not vote them out today when there are other pressing matters.

They could have kill powers, and from the write ups it looks like a villager may have died from a non-main pack kill, and the kill it looked to be was a villager.

I'm down to vote out a wolf but I'm extremely anti-3P/chaos. We vote out anyone who seems likely to 1) be able to kill villagers/make village lose and 2) is not themselves village.

Not sure neutral counts towards parity? In any case, it also might be best this person ends up a NK than a villager with a useful ability. It's possible it might help you as the outed seer.

I say you out them.

 

[supershorty]

I fell behind on my spreadsheet when I was doing all the gifs, but I updated the final votes for each person each day:

Spoiler: VCA spreadsheet

I'm very interested to hear samac's reads when she comes back. Going to take a closer look at a few other people in the meantime.

 

[Trilt]

I love neutrals and will pitch a fit at a mod who has an exclusionary win condition with one. That's not... neutral, lol.

What I always put the disclaimer in about is that sometimes neutrals have a goal or task where their affiliation might change, for better or worse - but all in all I like to let them be. They tend to gamesolve/swing more village anyway.

 

[Animal Midwife]

I've read pretty heavily on the subject, and if they have a wincon exclusionary to either villager or wolf they are NOT true neutral.

Neutrals (and chaos) are SDN inventions. It's why the wincons vary per game. That may not be how you'd design neutral in your own game, but it's just incorrect to say neutrals can't be wincon-exclusive when I've played multiple games where that was a thing.

 

[Crayola227]

They aren't a wolf though so I'd rather not vote them out today when there are other pressing matters.

Lol everyone remember that game when we suspected Coffee was chaos/3P/neutral, but we decided each day to try to lynch someone else, a wolf, instead, and kept putting off her lynch until we all lost the game to her? Fun times with non-villagers.

 

[Crayola227]

Neutrals (and chaos) are SDN inventions. It's why the wincons vary per game. They may not be how you'd design neutral in your own game, but it's just incorrect to say neutrals can't be wincon-exclusive when I've played multiple games where that was a thing.

They're not just SDN inventions. By definition if it has an exclusionary wincon it is not neutral.

You can call whatever you like whatever you like, there's been game where the wolves were villagers and the villagers wolves, still doesn't change what they are if you're talking theory. We call seers seers but that doesn't change that when you read WW theory they're a cop.

 

[Dinashadow]

They could have kill powers, and from the write ups it looks like a villager may have died from a non-main pack kill, and the kill it looked to be was a villager.

I'm down to vote out a wolf but I'm extremely anti-3P/chaos. We vote out anyone who seems likely to 1) be able to kill villagers/make village lose and 2) is not themselves village.

Not sure neutral counts towards parity? In any case, it also might be best this person ends up a NK than a villager with a useful ability. It's possible it might help you as the outed seer.

I say you out them.

I'm thinking about it, but if I do it won't be until closer to the end of the cycle. I don't want it to get in the way of normal votes/discussion, and it'll depend on what I hear from others, but I'm agreeing with you on a lot this.

I agree best case would be for them to be a NK vs a vote out, but idk if the wolves would agree lol

 

[Animal Midwife]

They're not just SDN inventions. By definition if it has an exclusionary wincon it is not neutral.

I've literally never seen any site say a neutral can't be wincon-exclusive and a chaos can't be wincon-inclusive.

You can call whatever you like whatever you like, there's been game where the wolves were villagers and the villagers wolves, still doesn't change what they are if you're talking theory. We call seers seers but that doesn't change that when you read WW theory they're a cop.

Actually, if cops and seers are in the same game, they're very different abilities. None of this changes what I experienced and seen though and saying what you wish was true, doesn't actually make it true.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

Lol everyone remember that game when we suspected Coffee was chaos/3P/neutral, but we decided each day to try to lynch someone else, a wolf, instead, and kept putting off her lynch until we all lost the game to her? Fun times with non-villagers.

That's a concern of mine too, but I think we should focus on wolves for now.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

That's a concern of mine too, but I think we should focus on wolves for now.

It's still a little early and they could get night killed

 

[Animal Midwife]

I can say a mason should be clear always by default until I'm blue in the face because, according to the official definition by most sites, wolves can't be masons with a villager unless it's multiball with mafia and wolves. That hasn't stopped SDN from converting masons. Once again, reality is uncomfortable but can't be ignored.

We even convert innocent children for crying out loud.

 

[Crayola227]

I've literally never seen any site say a neutral can't be wincon-exclusive and a chaos can't be wincon-inclusive.

Actually, if cops and seers are in the same game, they're very different abilities. None of this changes what I experienced and seen though and saying what you wish was true, doesn't actually make it true.

I'll find some sources for you. Makes no sense to say they're a neutral if they have an exclusive wincon. By that I assume you mean that they win and the other groups lose.

 

[Crayola227]

I can say a mason should be clear always by default until I'm blue in the face because, according to the official definition by most sites, wolves can't be masons with a villager unless it's multiball with mafia and wolves. That hasn't stopped SDN from converting masons. Once again, reality is uncomfortable but can't be ignored.

We even convert innocent children for crying out loud.

Conversion doesn't negate that they fit the original role by definition.

 

[LetItSnow]

I dont have time right now to do the review I was wanting give that a patient just lost their ****.
One thing I considered in tot chat (talking to myself in the void. Without Lawpy there it was pretty damn quiet) is that what if there is a wolf in each faction? I know it was explored previously briefly and one faction is now gone, but if it’s true Cyndia moved factions and she would be the last man standing in that group.

Just no.

It would make it way too easy to end-game the wolves.

"Oh look! That faction is the only one from which a wolf hasn't been found, and there's only two people left in it!"

 

[LetItSnow]

Yeah I'm not sure what to do about it or when/if I should out them and leave them for the wolves. I was hoping to get some input on thread on the matter.

They aren't a wolf though so I'd rather not vote them out today when there are other pressing matters.

I personally think it's ok to out them if it becomes an issue.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Conversion doesn't negate that they fit the original role by definition.

They're still masons and innocent children, so it shouldn't ever be allowed if SDN follows the rules, but SDN doesn't. It's why I only apply SDN factors to roles until undoubtedly proven otherwise.

 

[Animal Midwife]

I fell behind on my spreadsheet when I was doing all the gifs, but I updated the final votes for each person each day:

Spoiler: VCA spreadsheet

View attachment 332104

I'm very interested to hear samac's reads when she comes back. Going to take a closer look at a few other people in the meantime.

What do the fractions by the names mean?

 

[supershorty]

What do the fractions by the names mean?

Keeping track of where they were on the wagon. Started doing it D2 because Zenge's wagon got so big. I can go back and add them to D1.

 

[Crayola227]

So, upon reading it seems outside SDN "neutral" usually means not wolf not villager, faction of 1 (serial killer is classic example).

It seems the closest thing to "true neutral" we have on SDN are our NPCs, but not quite the same as often our NPCs are known to all.

All you've proven to me Midwife, is that unless we confirm a "neutral" has a non-exclusive wincon, then neutral is synonymous with chaos/3P and us possibly losing.

If it isn't village, it must die.

This is all I'm going to try to say on the matter. I'm happy to wolf hunt but if we start talking about the virtues of ties or 3P we might have a problem.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

Speaking of conversions can a 3p converted? Like a chaos or serial killer?

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

So, upon reading it seems outside SDN "neutral" usually means not wolf not villager, faction of 1 (serial killer is classic example).

It seems the closest thing to "true neutral" we have on SDN are our NPCs, but not quite the same as often our NPCs are known to all.

All you've proven to me Midwife, is that unless we confirm a "neutral" has a non-exclusive wincon, then neutral is synonymous with chaos/3P and us possibly losing.

If it isn't village, it must die.

This is all I'm going to try to say on the matter. I'm happy to wolf hunt but if we start talking about the virtues of ties or 3P we might have a problem.

Wolves would be trying to kill 3Ps too so that they don't meet their wincon. It's much better to have wolves hunt for it than to try and waste a yeet on it.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Speaking of conversions can a 3p converted? Like a chaos or serial killer?

Any 3p can convert if it's an ability. A cult leader's only ability is to convert, in fact.