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- Nov 13, 2013
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Well I guess I will be this person. I have vacillated back and forth for the last week and a half and its time to end. Heres how I see it, hopefully this will help someone else later also since these schools tend to overlap their interveiwees. To be clear I like both programs but am having trouble. Outside input is appreciated.
Liberty pros: Rotations Guarantee -Dean says that if you have family you can stay in Lynchburg (good if true)
Spiral Curriculum - Classic education model where you cover materially lightly the first time, sweep around and cover it more thoroughly the second time, and usually review it a 3rd time. Looking at the Academic Catalog it has a lot of cool ideas. For instance, the second years do dissection, while the first years observe the prosection and the second years help teach the first*. Also they try to cap 'seat and feet' time at 25 hours a week. *see cons (this doesn't seem like it is happening tho)
Rank each years separately - could be good or bad, about the deans letter they say specifically, the MSPE provides a succinct chronology of a student's entry and process through medical school, which includes the preclinical and clinical rotation records, involvement in special activities, compliance with College policies, and the student's personal qualities. I haven't found how much info from rank is included in Deans letter, so I am not sure it has it or not.
Family Orientation - Liberty has 'quiet rooms' in the back of the main lecture hall. They are the only school I have ever seen that at. They also place a great emphasis on keeping medical school as family friendly as possible. This is one of their biggest selling points.
No Mandatory Attendance: Right now they do not have mandatory attendance. However, their handbook actually states that a student is expected to attend 100% of classes unless otherwise specified. So yes, in practice there is no Mandatory attendance for now, but is it here to stay?
Liberty has money- Even if your a Democrat (I am neither party) connections to Republicans isn't all bad. This school has money and it shows. In the right circles Liberty will be a very positive thing. And based on locations and school size this will probably be one of the 'better' DO schools eventually. SDN Hive-think = Bigger undergrad = better graduate school. This school isn't in the middle of no where, and it owns the town its in.
Service focus - This is another of Liberties strongest points IMO. It really shows when you goto interview what they care about and how they act. I cannot stress that the culture is just different there from other places. Its not just a 'Christian' thing but more than that. These students are special in a good way, and I really felt like they had fostered a cooperative environment.
Lynchburg- is a real town with a metro area of 250k. Its not big city, but its not tiny at all. This is a real thing when you think about spending multiple years of your life in a place.
Liberty Cons:
Newness - With only one year ahead of me, my class WILL be working out some of the kinks which have been discussed openly (the 140/160 failing an anatomy practical, which they did allow the students to retake), also the over accepting last year and then initially pulling acceptances from people (which they did also fix by offering deferments or placing those people in 2018 after some abandoned deposit).
* con - So the idea of prosection the first year, and then dissection the second year isn't what is currently happening. Students are doing dissection now (per a current student) and they expect to prosect next year. Perhaps dissection this year is related to that one bad test, I don't know. However, the student handbook ( which disagrees with the academic catalog on this topic) states that there is dissection both years. Either way this isn't figured out from what I can tell, and it involves doing anatomy labs for 2 years
. This is a con for me, maybe its a plus if you want to be a surgeon. But I feel like what I have read and heard is that Anatomy lab is a big draw on your time. I would rather not have it for two full years (and with Liberty the years are VERY full with less time off).
Grading system - Liberty for the didactic years uses a straight number system according to the handbook, which in itself is not bad. However, when they convert your number to GPA it becomes more like a +/- system. 90-94 is a 3.75, so in essence a A-. I would note that every other range its in your favor like 80-84 is 3.0, but 85-89 is a 3.25. My undergrad experience taught me that I see a whole lot more of A- than I would like. 95% + on everything is very hard to achieve IMO. And even tho I probably will not get over 90% in every class (or maybe even most classes) I would like to have a decent shot at a "A," i.e. a 4.0. I know that at least one residency looks only at GPA and Board scores and doesn't recalculate it. At Liberty I might be very highly ranked, but I am sure I won't be a 4.0
DCOM
Pro-
Not new- I have graduated students I can talk too, 4th years etc. I have resources and I can get ahold of them. They have been really responsive which is good.
Grading System - Although they use a number system only grades appear on transcript. So 70 = C; 80= B; and 90= A with 2.0, 3.0, and 4.0 being their respective GPAs. I know I will get at least *some* A's at Debusk with proper effort, and there is a chance I could do even better. I am sure everyone feels this way, but 90% is definitely more achievable than 95%.
Attendance Policy - DCOM has a no mandatory attendance policy also. And we are in the 8th or so class, so I am not worried about that changing.
Class rank:I am not sure I like how DCOM ranks. They rank you by your numeric percentage over the first two years only. This can be really painful if you start slow.
But since the Dean only includes rank in your letter if your in the top 25%, it doesn't really hurt you. This is the way all schools should do rank IMO. No one wants to be the lowest ranked in the class, and quite frankly if you fulfill the requirements there is no need for anyone to know. But people should be rewarded for scoring well, and I think this system does this well.
Board Prep - They have already had many grads take boards so there is a system in place. They do force you to take the boards by June 15th or something like that (kind of early). So that is not so good.
Nuetral
Curriculum - a nice 'ol integrated block system with a decent amount of time off. Gross Anatomy ends in Dec. So about 6 months, and the fat cleaning is over. Basic sciences are mismashed together which I am not a huge fan of.
Con-
Rotation sites - They are all over, and your guaranteed that you have to move. Plus Core sites are assigned by an unweighted lottery. Fair? Probably. And it keeps the 'gunnerz' away by de-incentizing rank (did I tell you I changed my mind and only want Nuerosurgery now that I am admitted? j/king!). Still, staying in one place is a lot easier than having to move and set up half my rotations.
Harrogate - Wow it is tiny. I made a list of 6 places I think I would go on a semi-regular basis (Ross, Target, Moes, etc.). The only one that was closer than 43 miles was wal-mart. And I only would go there cause target is 60 miles away. Restaurant choices are limited, especially if you have dietary restrictions of almost any kind (Adkins would do fine tho!), and there just isn't a lot around in general. Except woods, lots of woods.
Writing this list has really helped me focus myself. I am completely open to corrections if I have made errors.
Here are my hang-ups:
I had a great gut feeling at Liberty, but I am having a hard time committing to a new program.
I also have a concern that what I see today will not be what is there when I am in my 2nd or 3rd or 4th year. Unfortunately, it seems like drastic curriculum changes are only a minor hiccup away.
And admittedly I am more sensitive to this because my curriculum was changed on me in nursing school (i.e. they added requirements that weren't in my matriculating catalog, and changed courses duration from a block style to running all semester). It sucks to feel powerless when the 'whims' of change are flowing, and you are in a professional program that you can't quit. I don't want that again.
And yet, here I am debating, because I had a great connection with the school (and it does have a longer pro list). Unlike some on SDN I do not think that either of these schools is a bad choice. In fact, I really liked them both. But I want to feel like I can have complete confidence in my DO school.
Help me out SDN.
Liberty pros: Rotations Guarantee -Dean says that if you have family you can stay in Lynchburg (good if true)
Spiral Curriculum - Classic education model where you cover materially lightly the first time, sweep around and cover it more thoroughly the second time, and usually review it a 3rd time. Looking at the Academic Catalog it has a lot of cool ideas. For instance, the second years do dissection, while the first years observe the prosection and the second years help teach the first*. Also they try to cap 'seat and feet' time at 25 hours a week. *see cons (this doesn't seem like it is happening tho)
Rank each years separately - could be good or bad, about the deans letter they say specifically, the MSPE provides a succinct chronology of a student's entry and process through medical school, which includes the preclinical and clinical rotation records, involvement in special activities, compliance with College policies, and the student's personal qualities. I haven't found how much info from rank is included in Deans letter, so I am not sure it has it or not.
Family Orientation - Liberty has 'quiet rooms' in the back of the main lecture hall. They are the only school I have ever seen that at. They also place a great emphasis on keeping medical school as family friendly as possible. This is one of their biggest selling points.
No Mandatory Attendance: Right now they do not have mandatory attendance. However, their handbook actually states that a student is expected to attend 100% of classes unless otherwise specified. So yes, in practice there is no Mandatory attendance for now, but is it here to stay?
Liberty has money- Even if your a Democrat (I am neither party) connections to Republicans isn't all bad. This school has money and it shows. In the right circles Liberty will be a very positive thing. And based on locations and school size this will probably be one of the 'better' DO schools eventually. SDN Hive-think = Bigger undergrad = better graduate school. This school isn't in the middle of no where, and it owns the town its in.
Service focus - This is another of Liberties strongest points IMO. It really shows when you goto interview what they care about and how they act. I cannot stress that the culture is just different there from other places. Its not just a 'Christian' thing but more than that. These students are special in a good way, and I really felt like they had fostered a cooperative environment.
Lynchburg- is a real town with a metro area of 250k. Its not big city, but its not tiny at all. This is a real thing when you think about spending multiple years of your life in a place.
Liberty Cons:
Newness - With only one year ahead of me, my class WILL be working out some of the kinks which have been discussed openly (the 140/160 failing an anatomy practical, which they did allow the students to retake), also the over accepting last year and then initially pulling acceptances from people (which they did also fix by offering deferments or placing those people in 2018 after some abandoned deposit).
* con - So the idea of prosection the first year, and then dissection the second year isn't what is currently happening. Students are doing dissection now (per a current student) and they expect to prosect next year. Perhaps dissection this year is related to that one bad test, I don't know. However, the student handbook ( which disagrees with the academic catalog on this topic) states that there is dissection both years. Either way this isn't figured out from what I can tell, and it involves doing anatomy labs for 2 years
. This is a con for me, maybe its a plus if you want to be a surgeon. But I feel like what I have read and heard is that Anatomy lab is a big draw on your time. I would rather not have it for two full years (and with Liberty the years are VERY full with less time off).Grading system - Liberty for the didactic years uses a straight number system according to the handbook, which in itself is not bad. However, when they convert your number to GPA it becomes more like a +/- system. 90-94 is a 3.75, so in essence a A-. I would note that every other range its in your favor like 80-84 is 3.0, but 85-89 is a 3.25. My undergrad experience taught me that I see a whole lot more of A- than I would like. 95% + on everything is very hard to achieve IMO. And even tho I probably will not get over 90% in every class (or maybe even most classes) I would like to have a decent shot at a "A," i.e. a 4.0. I know that at least one residency looks only at GPA and Board scores and doesn't recalculate it. At Liberty I might be very highly ranked, but I am sure I won't be a 4.0
DCOM
Pro-
Not new- I have graduated students I can talk too, 4th years etc. I have resources and I can get ahold of them. They have been really responsive which is good.
Grading System - Although they use a number system only grades appear on transcript. So 70 = C; 80= B; and 90= A with 2.0, 3.0, and 4.0 being their respective GPAs. I know I will get at least *some* A's at Debusk with proper effort, and there is a chance I could do even better. I am sure everyone feels this way, but 90% is definitely more achievable than 95%.
Attendance Policy - DCOM has a no mandatory attendance policy also. And we are in the 8th or so class, so I am not worried about that changing.
Class rank:I am not sure I like how DCOM ranks. They rank you by your numeric percentage over the first two years only. This can be really painful if you start slow.
But since the Dean only includes rank in your letter if your in the top 25%, it doesn't really hurt you. This is the way all schools should do rank IMO. No one wants to be the lowest ranked in the class, and quite frankly if you fulfill the requirements there is no need for anyone to know. But people should be rewarded for scoring well, and I think this system does this well.
Board Prep - They have already had many grads take boards so there is a system in place. They do force you to take the boards by June 15th or something like that (kind of early). So that is not so good.
Nuetral
Curriculum - a nice 'ol integrated block system with a decent amount of time off. Gross Anatomy ends in Dec. So about 6 months, and the fat cleaning is over. Basic sciences are mismashed together which I am not a huge fan of.
Con-
Rotation sites - They are all over, and your guaranteed that you have to move. Plus Core sites are assigned by an unweighted lottery. Fair? Probably. And it keeps the 'gunnerz' away by de-incentizing rank (did I tell you I changed my mind and only want Nuerosurgery now that I am admitted? j/king!). Still, staying in one place is a lot easier than having to move and set up half my rotations.
Harrogate - Wow it is tiny. I made a list of 6 places I think I would go on a semi-regular basis (Ross, Target, Moes, etc.). The only one that was closer than 43 miles was wal-mart. And I only would go there cause target is 60 miles away. Restaurant choices are limited, especially if you have dietary restrictions of almost any kind (Adkins would do fine tho!), and there just isn't a lot around in general. Except woods, lots of woods.
Writing this list has really helped me focus myself. I am completely open to corrections if I have made errors.
Here are my hang-ups:
I had a great gut feeling at Liberty, but I am having a hard time committing to a new program.
I also have a concern that what I see today will not be what is there when I am in my 2nd or 3rd or 4th year. Unfortunately, it seems like drastic curriculum changes are only a minor hiccup away.
And admittedly I am more sensitive to this because my curriculum was changed on me in nursing school (i.e. they added requirements that weren't in my matriculating catalog, and changed courses duration from a block style to running all semester). It sucks to feel powerless when the 'whims' of change are flowing, and you are in a professional program that you can't quit. I don't want that again.
And yet, here I am debating, because I had a great connection with the school (and it does have a longer pro list). Unlike some on SDN I do not think that either of these schools is a bad choice. In fact, I really liked them both. But I want to feel like I can have complete confidence in my DO school.
Help me out SDN.
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