RANT HERE thread

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

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These are all horrible stories. Is there no law requiring veterinarians to report any animal cruelty they see? In my area the second anyone says they may do harm to an animal (eg. "Your euthanasia is way too expensive I'll just do it myself) or has their animal in conditions like that without proper medical care you are obligated to report it to the cruelty investigators at the BCSPCA.

We've reported several owners in the last few months for having their animals in absolutely heartbreaking condition (after they refuse the medical care we offer), but nothing comes even close to the situations you have described above

 

[Trilt]

These are all horrible stories. Is there no law requiring veterinarians to report any animal cruelty they see? In my area the second anyone says they may do harm to an animal (eg. "Your euthanasia is way too expensive I'll just do it myself) or has their animal in conditions like that without proper medical care you are obligated to report it to the cruelty investigators at the BCSPCA.

We've reported several owners in the last few months for having their animals in absolutely heartbreaking condition (after they refuse the medical care we offer), but nothing comes even close to the situations you have described above

Laws vary by state, actually. Chart is a couple years old though.

 

[EngrSC]

In the situation I reported, we had an awfully thin ~10 month old bulldog come in for an exam. It didn't sound like the people were intentionally starving him and he otherwise seemed well cared for. The vet I was working with at the time wanted to have him come in every month or so for a weight check and discussed feeding amounts at length with the owner. She wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt. It certainly wasn't obvious cruelty but imo, nothing bad can come from requesting a wellness check.

On a side note ... there's a FB page for the community I live in. Two nights ago someone posted a picture of a dog that was loose near our house that looked like it could've been one of my dogs. But at the time it was posted my dog was happily eating his dinner in our kitchen. The poster said the dog wouldn't let anyone near which didn't also sound like my guy. Dismissed the idea that it had been my dog earlier in the day since our gates were latched. This morning there was another post that a dog of the same description was dead in the middle of the road about a mile in the other direction. Apparently someone called it in and a deputy was being dispatched to pick up the body. Sounds like it was the same dog and definitely wasn't my guy but how awful. My first thought was I hope DAS scans him/her and notifies the owner if possible 🙁

 

[vetmedhead]

Laws vary by state, actually. Chart is a couple years old though.

You beat me to it!

 

[vetmedhead]

In the situation I reported, we had an awfully thin ~10 month old bulldog come in for an exam. It didn't sound like the people were intentionally starving him and he otherwise seemed well cared for. The vet I was working with at the time wanted to have him come in every month or so for a weight check and discussed feeding amounts at length with the owner. She wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt. It certainly wasn't obvious cruelty but imo, nothing bad can come from requesting a wellness check.

On a side note ... there's a FB page for the community I live in. Two nights ago someone posted a picture of a dog that was loose near our house that looked like it could've been one of my dogs. But at the time it was posted my dog was happily eating his dinner in our kitchen. The poster said the dog wouldn't let anyone near which didn't also sound like my guy. Dismissed the idea that it had been my dog earlier in the day since our gates were latched. This morning there was another post that a dog of the same description was dead in the middle of the road about a mile in the other direction. Apparently someone called it in and a deputy was being dispatched to pick up the body. Sounds like it was the same dog and definitely wasn't my guy but how awful. My first thought was I hope DAS scans him/her and notifies the owner if possible 🙁

Happens very often unfortunately. I live in an area where chipping isn't very common, so many owners never get that closure.

 

[Trilt]

You beat me to it!

Bored out of her mind Trilt for all your link-providing needs! 😀

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

To (hopefully) get an interesting debate started, what is your guys' opinions on it being require/not required to report? AKA pros and cons.

I can see privacy of owners being a concern, however in my opinion it is similar to taking your child to the doctor; if they see signs of abuse they must also report. (Disclaimer: that is a very broad statement and I admit I have no idea what types of doctors that applies to and how far across the country that rule extends)

 

[Caiter92]

You are describing pretty much every day at work for me, as we get a lot of community cats (and hoarded cats) in awful shape at animal control. The maggot kitten we probably would have euthanized on intake.

Is there an "end point" for the cats she "rescues"? Do they ever leave her care or does she keep them indefinitely?

Has the practitioner at your practice approached her about surrendering any of the animals to someone or even just not taking in more? Hoarding at the level you're describing is pretty serious animal cruelty and though the offenders usually seem fairly innocuous, their animals are generally suffering from being in their care.

Something to think about (from an animal control employee's perspective): stray animals (even ferals) are not usually as sick when they come in as hoarded animals typically are, despite having no person to care for them whatsoever and being on their own in the elements. Animals would literally be better off on their own than under a hoarder's care.

If she's unreceptive to conversations about giving her animals away, I would encourage you or the vets you work with to report the hoarding suspicions to a regulatory authority like animal control. Most municipalities have statutes limiting the number of animals a person can own, and they could potentially remove those animals from her care and give her access to resources to be able to manage an appropriate number of animals. Reporting hoarding can also be important if she has any dependent family members like children or elderly parents, as they would need to be removed from the home as well.

I worked on a case with a lady like that once, she had dirty litter boxes stacked chest high all over the house and kept all of her dead cats in her freezer. :/

Also, if she's not actually a hoarder and you're just venting, sorry to jump all over you with this long post. I've just had animal cruelty on my mind a lot today and I'm kind of in autopilot .

The person I'm referring to has a lot of mental health issues and has been reported many, many times over the years to various enforcement bodies and nothing has been done. I don't know if she refuses to let them into the house and for whatever reason they don't pursue it more or what, but it's incredibly frustrating and sad. She doesn't come here anymore for various reasons, but I hope whatever clinic she is at now will have enough evidence and be willing to report it to finally get something done.

 

[vetmedhead]

To (hopefully) get an interesting debate started, what is your guys' opinions on it being require/not required to report? AKA pros and cons.

I can see privacy of owners being a concern, however in my opinion it is similar to taking your child to the doctor; if they see signs of abuse they must also report. (Disclaimer: that is a very broad statement and I admit I have no idea what types of doctors that applies to and how far across the country that rule extends)

My concern is mainly with training of veterinarians in regards to forensics and animal cruelty statutes. We often get reports from vets who don't know much about cruelty laws and claim someone committed cruelty with no evidence collected or documented (= no case), or they report things they dislike but that aren't considered cruelty in the federal/state/municipal statutes. Other veterinarians really want to help but aren't very familiar with what constitutes cruelty, and thusly may fail to report it and then get in trouble for failing to report later when the owner is charged.

In terms of forensics, vets may have to collect/document evidence when they report the cruelty and these types of samples are easy to contaminate/damage, which could jeopardize the case. Many are also unfamiliar with chain of custody and it may also bring unnecessary difficulty to the vets if they have to implement procedures to maintain it/document cruelty cases, as it can take valuable time away from their ability to practice when the case comes in.

Veterinarians that report and document cruelty cases may also be subpoenaed to testify in court, which many vets are unwilling or unable to do.

 

[vetmedhead]

The person I'm referring to has a lot of mental health issues and has been reported many, many times over the years to various enforcement bodies and nothing has been done. I don't know if she refuses to let them into the house and for whatever reason they don't pursue it more or what, but it's incredibly frustrating and sad. She doesn't come here anymore for various reasons, but I hope whatever clinic she is at now will have enough evidence and be willing to report it to finally get something done.

The cases can be hard to prosecute sometimes. When animals are seized, people are also allowed to have custody hearings to regain custody of their animals, and many do regain custody if they can meet some relatively low bars for standards of care being provided to the animal(s).

 

[vetmedhead]

To (hopefully) get an interesting debate started, what is your guys' opinions on it being require/not required to report? AKA pros and cons.

I can see privacy of owners being a concern, however in my opinion it is similar to taking your child to the doctor; if they see signs of abuse they must also report. (Disclaimer: that is a very broad statement and I admit I have no idea what types of doctors that applies to and how far across the country that rule extends)

On the other hand...

I DO think it's incredibly important to document and prosecute cruelty cases. Depending on the type of cruelty, many other criminal activities occur alongside, especially domestic violence (~60% of victims of domestic violence reported that animal cruelty co-occured in their homes in one study). In things like dog fighting, you often run into drug trafficking, illegal gambling, illegal interstate commerce, sex crimes, assault/battery, illegal weapons, and so on. Animal cruelty is also considered by many to be an indicator that someone may commit future heinous crimes. From this perspective it's important to prosecute animal cruelty cases because you will likely see a concomitant drop in related crimes once those offenders are charged/jailed/on probation.

From a public health perspective: abused animals are for the most part just plain unsafe to have in a community. They are often sick with zoonotic diseases due to neglect, they are often highly unsocialized and more likely to bite people, and they may be sick with diseases dangerous to other animals in the area (think parvo, heartworms, feline panleukopenia, FIV/FeLV, that sort of thing). Managing and preventing cruelty cases can also help manage and prevent these diseases in the community.

Plus, if an animal dies on the property god only knows what people can catch from that carcass. Ew.

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

My concern is mainly with training of veterinarians in regards to forensics and animal cruelty statutes. We often get reports from vets who don't know much about cruelty laws and claim someone committed cruelty with no evidence collected or documented (= no case), or they report things they dislike but that aren't considered cruelty in the federal/state/municipal statutes. Other veterinarians really want to help but aren't very familiar with what constitutes cruelty, and thusly may fail to report it and then get in trouble for failing to report later when the owner is charged.

In terms of forensics, vets may have to collect/document evidence when they report the cruelty and these types of samples are easy to contaminate/damage, which could jeopardize the case. Many are also unfamiliar with chain of custody and it may also bring unnecessary difficulty to the vets if they have to implement procedures to maintain it/document cruelty cases, as it can take valuable time away from their ability to practice when the case comes in.

Veterinarians that report and document cruelty cases may also be subpoenaed to testify in court, which many vets are unwilling or unable to do.

This seems very complicated for everyone all around. I have chatted with some of those involved with the investigations, and they have also said how hard it is to have complete proof that is enough to have the animals removed.

In my experience, I have never had it be the veterinarians duty to collect evidence. I mean, in an appointment we collect history, vitals, and get a weight (which could show emaciation either neglect related or medical), but nothing outside of that unless the owner does decide they want to run tests.

With regards to the procedures for reporting, I only have had experience with the protocol of one clinic. I have no comparison to see how our way of doing things compares to others in the area. Nor have I followed up with our reports to see how the situation plays out. I do not believe it is in my authority to do so since I am not a vet.

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

Vetmedhead, what "line" do you tend to start going after people at?

 

[vetmedhead]

This seems very complicated for everyone all around. I have chatted with some of those involved with the investigations, and they have also said how hard it is to have complete proof that is enough to have the animals removed.

In my experience, I have never had it be the veterinarians duty to collect evidence. I mean, in an appointment we collect history, vitals, and get a weight (which could show emaciation either neglect related or medical), but nothing outside of that unless the owner does decide they want to run tests.

With regards to the procedures for reporting, I only have had experience with the protocol of one clinic. I have no comparison to see how our way of doing things compares to others in the area. Nor have I followed up with our reports to see how the situation plays out. I do not believe it is in my authority to do so since I am not a vet.

Depends on the vet and the resources in the area. Places with a veterinarian at animal control will usually have their vet investigate the matter themselves (especially if a necropsy is necessary). Areas with limited animal controls/resources may instead ask the reporting veterinarian to document the situation and help them collect evidence if necessary.

I should also clarify that we consider documentation of things like temperature, weight, etc to be evidence for our purposes. Collection of physical evidence (insects, collars, bullet fragments, etc.) is usually done by officers, but oftentimes veterinarians may collect these as well during the course of treating the animal and if that happens it can be potentially problematic if they are uncertain about how to properly preserve those things for officers. It's also often a good idea to document an animal's condition anyway when cruelty is suspected, as things like body weight or temperature can change in the time it takes animal control to dispatch an officer to investigate a report.

Vetmedhead, what "line" do you tend to start going after people at?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, could you please clarify? 🙂

 

[Devastating]

From a public health perspective: abused animals are for the most part just plain unsafe to have in a community. They are often sick with zoonotic diseases due to neglect, they are often highly unsocialized and more likely to bite people, and they may be sick with diseases dangerous to other animals in the area (think parvo, heartworms, feline panleukopenia, FIV/FeLV, that sort of thing). Managing and preventing cruelty cases can also help manage and prevent these diseases in the community.

Hmm...I've never thought about this perspective of the issue before! Is it common for DVMs with a focus on public health to ever work with cruelty/neglect/hoarding cases?

 

[vetmedhead]

Hmm...I've never thought about this perspective of the issue before! Is it common for DVMs with a focus on public health to ever work with cruelty/neglect/hoarding cases?

I know DVMs with MPHs who work in shelter medicine and thusly work on at least a few cruelty cases here and there. MPHs can be used to study just about any darn thing you want, but they're becoming more popular for shelter vets because they teach a great deal about population health and infectious diseases, two important things for shelters to manage well.

I am unsure about how often public health vets work with animal cruelty things (much more common for them to work on disease surveillance, food safety, and epidemiology type stuff), but I wouldn't be surprised to learn they do. It's something I personally hope to do after I graduate, so would a sample size of 1 count? 😛

 

[deleted498041]

It's interesting seeing stories on thread about how different veterinarians approach hoarding/cruelty cases. I wonder how much information about this type of thing is discussed (if at all?) in veterinary school. I'm sure most practicing veterinarians will see at least one case of suspected or confirmed cruelty while practicing, but I don't know how much this type of thing is actually mentioned in vet school (if there's even time to throw it in along with the millions of other things we have to learn).

I think it's important for vets to have some working knowledge of animal cruelty statutes in the state they practice in and whether they are legally required to report suspected cruelty in their state as well.

For what it's worth, it was discussed a handful of times at my vet school.

To (hopefully) get an interesting debate started, what is your guys' opinions on it being require/not required to report? AKA pros and cons.

I can see privacy of owners being a concern, however in my opinion it is similar to taking your child to the doctor; if they see signs of abuse they must also report. (Disclaimer: that is a very broad statement and I admit I have no idea what types of doctors that applies to and how far across the country that rule extends)

I don't like obligate reporting for something like this. I know people who have reported abuse, hoarding, beastiality -- that kind of stuff. Sometimes they're wrong, sometimes they're right. I think people should be more willing to report than they usually are, for the good of the pet, but I also understand how hard it is to be sure of situations like this. Did the owner break that 14 year old cat's leg, or is it a pathologic fracture? While I don't wish to downplay the difficulties that human physicians have when it comes to these scenarios, I do believe that, generally speaking, they have an easier time coming to a conclusion than we do.

 

[missdarjeeling]

While I don't wish to downplay the difficulties that human physicians have when it comes to these scenarios, I do believe that, generally speaking, they have an easier time coming to a conclusion than we do.

Yeah, it seems like there's more clarity there, since these things are mentioned explicitly in law. From what little I know, it seems that in most states, mandatory reporting is triggered when a healthcare provider has evidence or reasonable suspicion of abuse. They sometimes are required to tell the patient that they're filing a report. With adults, they can actually talk to the patient about what's going on and at least offer information for social services to help them. With some children, they may be able to directly talk to them, too. We can't exactly do that.

Then you have the grey area cases. If you had an 11 year old Golden with lymphosarcoma, and the clients refused to treat or even give pain meds, would that be enough to constitute neglect? Or what about the uncontrolled diabetic where the owner doesn't buy insulin anymore? Or the torn cruciate dog who's just going to be limping for the rest of his life? There are obviously clear cases of abuse and neglect, but mandatory reporting encourages erring on the side of caution, and I feel like there are a lot more grey areas in our line of work than in people medicine.

 

[sheltermed]

Be honest: do you think a learning disability is a disadvantage for a student?

 

[sheltermed]

Yeah, it seems like there's more clarity there, since these things are mentioned explicitly in law. From what little I know, it seems that in most states, mandatory reporting is triggered when a healthcare provider has evidence or reasonable suspicion of abuse. They sometimes are required to tell the patient that they're filing a report. With adults, they can actually talk to the patient about what's going on and at least offer information for social services to help them. With some children, they may be able to directly talk to them, too. We can't exactly do that.

Then you have the grey area cases. If you had an 11 year old Golden with lymphosarcoma, and the clients refused to treat or even give pain meds, would that be enough to constitute neglect? Or what about the uncontrolled diabetic where the owner doesn't buy insulin anymore? Or the torn cruciate dog who's just going to be limping for the rest of his life? There are obviously clear cases of abuse and neglect, but mandatory reporting encourages erring on the side of caution, and I feel like there are a lot more grey areas in our line of work than in people medicine.

Semi-unrelated, but my dad is one of these people you listed. He has a dog with a torn ACL and he is opting not to go for surgery because he claims he's unable to afford it (I don't really know his situation, I don't live with him and I never have). I've tried looking for alternatives for him--he lives in NYC and I was suggested by a vet student to try the ASPCA for cheaper surgery options? I don't think he fits their income cut-off though, and I don't know what else I can do or suggest for him. Any ideas? :s

Edit: to my knowledge, he is giving the dog an anti-inflammatory and/or a pain med.

Edit edit: It sounds like he's going to go through with the surgery, but he actually isn't giving any medication right now except for a glucosamine supplement. His reasoning: "I thought he could just thug it out."

 

[dyachei]

They make decent braces now for ccl tears.

I think that's different than not treating a life threatening disease. Many humans choose not to treat their joint disease.

And if he's treating the pain, he is treating

 

[that redhead]

To (hopefully) get an interesting debate started, what is your guys' opinions on it being require/not required to report? AKA pros and cons.

I can see privacy of owners being a concern, however in my opinion it is similar to taking your child to the doctor; if they see signs of abuse they must also report. (Disclaimer: that is a very broad statement and I admit I have no idea what types of doctors that applies to and how far across the country that rule extends)

Finding a definition for "cruelty" and "abuse" is the biggest hurdle in this discussion. Do I report every dog with a broken limb on the off chance the owner caused it? Do I report every single renal failure kitty that gets weekly sq fluids but should probably have been put down by now? It seems black and white until you work on the cases.

 

[Coquette22]

We see a butt load of CCL tears. Maybe 1 in 20 goes to surgery, most people around here just can't afford it. The other 19 gets pain meds with or without a brace.

 

[vetmedhead]

And if he's treating the pain, he is treating

Finding a definition for "cruelty" and "abuse" is the biggest hurdle in this discussion. Do I report every dog with a broken limb on the off chance the owner caused it? Do I report every single renal failure kitty that gets weekly sq fluids but should probably have been put down by now? It seems black and white until you work on the cases.

Agree with these. Pain management is management of the condition even if the condition itself is not resolved. You can run into gray areas for this (e.g. is pain management alone considered "enough" treatment for a significant femoral fracture that the owner does not intend to brace/surgically correct/remove the leg?), but usually pain management is enough to demonstrate the animal is being cared for.

We usually work on more egregious cases - things like intentional starvation, beating, hanging/stabbing/shooting, intentionally running over, etc. where criminal intent and criminal action (mens rea/actus reus) are easier to demonstrate in court. We also tend to go after things where the law is written such that it is clear the person unquestionably violated it, like when they tether an animal on a 2' chain and the law states it must be 10' minimum.

We work on heat stroke cases a lot as well, but they can be difficult to demonstrate in court that the person's lack of care is what lead to the eventual heat stroke.

People are upset when they report things to us and the person is not charged or prosecuted, but there are many times where there is simply not enough to build a case that won't get thrown out by any lawyer that's even remotely competent. Other times we investigate and find that the reporter did not have a full understanding of the situation or that the owner is still acting within acceptable standards of care for their animal.

 

[Trilt]

Job I really wanted and thought I clicked really well with hired someone else. They called and let me down nicely, but still pretty bummed.

I'm not unhappy with the other offer I have in hand, but was genuinely excited about that place. 🙁

 

[TerraVet]

And usually 6 feet away is far enough to avoid scatter.

I was basically right next to the table, but that does make me feel better. Thanks 😀

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Be honest: do you think a learning disability is a disadvantage for a student?

I think it really depends....for example, a lot of people throw around the idea of test anxiety, and I'm less inclined to really think that's real "disability" (as opposed to simply a spectrum of normal human anxieties) unless they have an actual diagnosed anxiety disorder/panic attacks and it isn't just a single-situation thing. E.g. I have a massive fear of flying and generally have to take a sedative before getting on a plane, but I wouldn't consider that a "disability" or a "disorder". It's just a situation I have to deal with that happens to cause me immense anxiety. But there are definitely legitimate learning disabilities out there - thinks like dyslexia, auditory processing disorders, etc.

We attach the word "disorder" and "disability" too far too many things nowadays and it undercuts the people who actually have significant learning or psychological disorders.

 

[sheltermed]

I think it really depends....for example, a lot of people throw around the idea of test anxiety, and I'm less inclined to really think that's real "disability" (as opposed to simply a spectrum of normal human anxieties) unless they have an actual diagnosed anxiety disorder/panic attacks and it isn't just a single-situation thing. E.g. I have a massive fear of flying and generally have to take a sedative before getting on a plane, but I wouldn't consider that a "disability" or a "disorder". It's just a situation I have to deal with that happens to cause me immense anxiety. But there are definitely legitimate learning disabilities out there - thinks like dyslexia, auditory processing disorders, etc.

We attach the word "disorder" and "disability" too far too many things nowadays and it undercuts the people who actually have significant learning or psychological disorders.

I totally agree with you on that. Something like test anxiety definitely seems more like a normal human thing than a disability (has test anxiety alone been called a learning disability?).

I was asking more about things such as dyslexia, ADHD, processing disorders, etc. To me, those things are a disadvantage for a student. Some students could try as hard as they can and still not do well, mainly attributing that to a learning disability. Do you know what I mean?

Sent from my SM-G935V using SDN mobile

 

[sheltermed]

They make decent braces now for ccl tears.

I think that's different than not treating a life threatening disease. Many humans choose not to treat their joint disease.

And if he's treating the pain, he is treating

Not sure if you were referring to my post about my dad's dog, but he stopped giving the pain medicine when he ran out =/.

I will definitely suggest the brace for him. Are there only certain places he could get one from? I'm assuming it's a custom fit thing?

Sent from my SM-G935V using SDN mobile

 

[Gwenevre]

Job I really wanted and thought I clicked really well with hired someone else. They called and let me down nicely, but still pretty bummed.

I'm not unhappy with the other offer I have in hand, but was genuinely excited about that place. 🙁

🙁

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I totally agree with you on that. Something like test anxiety definitely seems more like a normal human thing than a disability (has test anxiety alone been called a learning disability?).

I was asking more about things such as dyslexia, ADHD, processing disorders, etc. To me, those things are a disadvantage for a student. Some students could try as hard as they can and still not do well, mainly attributing that to a learning disability. Do you know what I mean?

Sent from my SM-G935V using SDN mobile

I know people that have requested special accommodations (extra time, separate test-taking space) for test anxiety and it irks me.

I agree with you on the others, although I think ADD/ADHD is also taken advantage of (and I say that as someone formally diagnosed with it -multiple days of psychological testing, recall tests, motor tests, reaction time tests, the works...not just going to a doc and complaining that I can't concentrate, which is what I suspect many people do just so they can give themselves that label + get meds).

 

[vetmedhead]

I know people that have requested special accommodations (extra time, separate test-taking space) for test anxiety and it irks me.

I agree with you on the others, although I think ADD/ADHD is also taken advantage of (and I say that as someone formally diagnosed with it -multiple days of psychological testing, recall tests, motor tests, reaction time tests, the works...not just going to a doc and complaining that I can't concentrate, which is what I suspect many people do just so they can give themselves that label + get meds).

I do agree that people can manipulate the system to get labels/meds/accommodations. However, I'm reticent to brush off test anxiety and similar claims completely. The vast majority of the people I know who get extra time on exams for test anxiety actually have generalized anxiety disorder or have legitimate panic attacks or any of a slew of other anxiety disorders and the stress of an exam can cause an otherwise somewhat managed disorder to become exacerbated during the exam.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I do agree that people can manipulate the system to get labels/meds/accommodations. However, I'm reticent to brush off test anxiety and similar claims completely. The vast majority of the people I know who get extra time on exams for test anxiety actually have generalized anxiety disorder or have legitimate panic attacks or any of a slew of other anxiety disorders and the stress of an exam can cause an otherwise somewhat managed disorder to become exacerbated during the exam.

Problem with that whole thing is, if you can't handle taking a test because of this disorder, how are you going to cope when you are actually a vet and dealing with things that are much more stressful than that? Should we really be granting everyone accommodations or is that actually sheltering them too much from the real world? If your anxiety is that bad, you should be working harder on your therapy and/or meds regimen and not just relying on accommodations.

 

[Coopah]

I know people that have requested special accommodations (extra time, separate test-taking space) for test anxiety and it irks me.

I agree with you on the others, although I think ADD/ADHD is also taken advantage of (and I say that as someone formally diagnosed with it -multiple days of psychological testing, recall tests, motor tests, reaction time tests, the works...not just going to a doc and complaining that I can't concentrate, which is what I suspect many people do just so they can give themselves that label + get meds).

My husband was diagnosed with ADHD because in the exam he ranked above average on everything, except attention so they said he had it. He was like "Um, no"

 

[dyachei]

Not sure if you were referring to my post about my dad's dog, but he stopped giving the pain medicine when he ran out =/.

I will definitely suggest the brace for him. Are there only certain places he could get one from? I'm assuming it's a custom fit thing?

Sent from my SM-G935V using SDN mobile

just look them up.

A chronic tear is uncomfortable but probably more unstable than painful. So I don't think you can compare the 2 things.

 

[sheltermed]

Problem with that whole thing is, if you can't handle taking a test because of this disorder, how are you going to cope when you are actually a vet and dealing with things that are much more stressful than that? Should we really be granting everyone accommodations or is that actually sheltering them too much from the real world? If your anxiety is that bad, you should be working harder on your therapy and/or meds regimen and not just relying on accommodations.

As as someone who's been diagnosed and dealing with with anxiety and depression since I was a young kid, I couldn't agree more. I also definitely see where you're coming from about the ADHD diagnosis being taken advantage of. However, I was recently diagnosed (only about 6 months ago), and once I started seeing a counselor specific for ADHD and taking medication (only as needed, not daily), I noticed drastic improvement in my ability to stay focused and retain information (the latter being the most important to me). I would say that the counseling has helped me the most, and the medication has been a nice complement to use during long study times. Once I received the diagnosis I became eligible to receive 50% extra time on exams in school, and I must say it has also helped a lot - I'm someone that will be rushing to answer the last few questions and end up losing points because I didn't have enough time. With the extra time, I've been able to demonstrate that I actually do know the information and don't lose as much credit. Anyway, I can certainly see that it's overdiagnosed -- I think it really depends on the person. Just for me in particular, once I've started various treatments/the one accommodation, I've felt and seen drastic improvements so far, and not only in academics. Also, I looked into it and the NAVLE offers an extra time accommodation, as do vet schools - so I think that's something I'll be able to rely on for a while. It's really just for academics-- I don't think I need extra time to say, think fast and decide what to do if a dog came in that was hit by a car. If you know what I mean. I also have experience in an e-clinic and know for a fact that it's not the case.

Sorry for the essay lol, just wanted to try to give an example of a person that isn't necessarily one of those taking advantage of a diagnosis/accommodation!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Nah, I get you. And the other difference is between you and the cases I am referring to, you are actively taking ownership of your issue and working to overcome it.

I should also make the note that when I say "accomodations" I am definitely not talking about therapy and/or medicine - those are necessary in many cases and everyone who needs them should use them and take no shame in it. I was someone who battled...let's just say innumerable issues during vet school (and high school, and college), and I never asked for any accommodations. Therapy yes, meds, yes, but I kept my personal mental health separate from academics.

Now, I DO NOT say that to brag - because there were likely some instances in which I *should have*taken some. For example, in my third year, some sort of leave of absence would have likely been a good idea at the time, even though my issues were not as....let's just say "sympathetic" as some. I was in bad shape. But I do think that learning to take responsibility and managing my issues (and not alone, in concert with others) put me in much better stead in the long run, especially since I knew I would be in academics specifically for the long haul and couldn't just keep asking people to make exceptions for me.

It is a very individual thing; it just drives me nuts (as someone who had to fight tooth and nail through **** and made it) when I see people who take advantage of it and just whine and bitch...not you or anyone specifically on this thread - but you know the people I am talking about.

 

[orca2011]

We were actually just talking about the braces for CCL tears at my internship today. I haven't every really seen them used, so I was just curious what anyone else's experience with them has been like.

 

[missdarjeeling]

We have a client who's been using a brace for a long time on an elderly, 60-ish lb. dog. He had a TPLO on the other leg and actually had a failed TPLO on the leg with the brace. The owner elected to not re-do the surgery, especially since he was older and started developing some other issues that basically make surgery a no-go. This dog does very well with the brace, and there are times when he doesn't really need it. He'll never walk quite normally and he has a hard time getting up, but he's also dealing with muscle wasting and arthritis. The brace does really help. We've recommended it to other clients, but I haven't seen any other than this one.

 

[JaynaAli]

We were actually just talking about the braces for CCL tears at my internship today. I haven't every really seen them used, so I was just curious what anyone else's experience with them has been like.

My internship fitted a few pets with them. We usually recommended surgery for best outcomes but several patients with comorbidities (and a couple due to finances) elected to go the brace route. The physical therapist we worked with (a human PT with PhD in canine biomechanics) used Hero Braces brand. Our ortho guy said most others weren't effective (not braced in right places to be functional for a dog, etc) but they liked the Hero ones. Custom molded, need to be fitted by the PT a couple times. Function was good overall but they really need to work up to wearing it all day and after that have it put on in the morning and then only taken off at bedtime. Some of our patients would even wait in bed each morning until the owners put the brace on because they knew the drill. Cost to our clients ended up being about $1000 for the PT consult, molding, actual brace, and fitting. The one client who found a different brand somewhere on the internet did not have as good of function as the dogs in Hero braces, but that's an n=1. If my dog needed one and I couldn't do surgery, I'd use one given my (albeit fairly limited) experience with them.

 

[deleted498041]

We were actually just talking about the braces for CCL tears at my internship today. I haven't every really seen them used, so I was just curious what anyone else's experience with them has been like.

I've never met a surgeon who liked them. That being said, I've never asked why so I don't really understand the rationale. I went to a good talk at PacVet about braces and orthotics and the speaker was saying how basically the only good brace is a custom one.

 

[TerraVet]

Fell asleep last night after a long, long stressful week. Woke up at 6am to my dog hacking/vomiting white foam over me and the bed. Looked at her records and she is exacting 1 week overdue for her Bordetella vaccine. Also, my current living/commute schedule requires I bring her to work, and I'm pretty certain my clinic is not going to allow it now (we have a tiny isolation ward), so I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I feel so bad for my pup, she keeps looking at me like, fix it mom! 🙁

 

[dyachei]

I've never met a surgeon who liked them. That being said, I've never asked why so I don't really understand the rationale. I went to a good talk at PacVet about braces and orthotics and the speaker was saying how basically the only good brace is a custom one.

can't imagine why they wouldn't like them...

They are a *decent* alternative for those that can't or won't have surgery. The surgery is still the treatment of choice

 

[orca2011]

can't imagine why they wouldn't like them...

They are a *decent* alternative for those that can't or won't have surgery. The surgery is still the treatment of choice

It was one of our surgeons asking about it actually. He seemed generally interested learning about people's experience as I think he would like to feel comfortable recommending them as an option for those people who cant/won't do aurgery. He just has essentially an n=1 right now.

 

[orca2011]

My left hip joint is killing me and it's making it difficult to get comfortable so that I can sleep.

 

[DVMDream]

Slammed my foot into a wall a week ago. Was difficult to walk that night, but was fine the next day, just bruised/swollen toe. Has been fine all week, minus certain movements of toes. Tonight, it really freaking hurts. I can still walk fine, move the toes but dang is it sore, might end up having to get radiographs done, was trying to avoid that.

 

[Kpowell14]

I've never met a surgeon who liked them. That being said, I've never asked why so I don't really understand the rationale. I went to a good talk at PacVet about braces and orthotics and the speaker was saying how basically the only good brace is a custom one.

When I was on Onco, one of our patients on pred for mast cell tumor came in and had tore her cruciate. With her not being a great surgical candidate because of needing to be on pred and getting chemo, we talked to one of our ortho clinicians about the braces. He said basically there is no published research proving that they are useful and so using them cant hurt, but may not work and surgery would be ideal.. Lack of evidence seems to be the hold back on them here but he did say if you are going to get one, a custom one is better than a pre-fab one.

 

[orca2011]

New roomies dog has peed on two of my things today. One was my dogs bed which I was going to wash anyway and the other is my brand new area rug in my bedroom. I thought I had closed my door fully but I guess not. She also peed in my room right before I moved in on a trash bag. I think I'm going to have to buy a door baby gate for my room just in case.

 

[jmo1012]

New roomies dog has peed on two of my things today. One was my dogs bed which I was going to wash anyway and the other is my brand new area rug in my bedroom. I thought I had closed my door fully but I guess not. She also peed in my room right before I moved in on a trash bag. I think I'm going to have to buy a door baby gate for my room just in case.

Ugh 2 years ago, my roommates dog was a chewed and would steal my things to chew. Also figured out how to rip baby gates down fast, it was so frustrating

 

[orca2011]

Also I don't have Internet until the 5th...