There's a WW in Michigan Game Thread

[SnowshoeDog143]

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What do people think of dvmd and vmh, am too lazy to read their iso'd 7+ pages of pages...

I also was reading griff as just a noob trying to be funny. But I admit he could be a wolf crazy noob. Probably won't be voting there though.

kata and lyra stick out to me as they have been neutral on my list the entire game. Going to try to talk to kata some more in pm today to see what I think. I also am interested in the paws vote, but I agreed with a lot of what she's said so she sounded more village to me because of that bias.

 

[SnowshoeDog143]

Would like to hear from 3m today as well. They were off my radar mostly because of non-participation. Does make them look wolfy.

I mean it does, but more surprised she isn't getting threatened to be mod killed. did she post yesterday?

 

[PippyPony]

Yeah I'm not going to try to convert/rez hunt rn, but reminder to self that you would totally bus a wolf as soon as you rezzed to gain village cred.

100% would do that; not denying that at all.

All I'll say is:
- dy would have done an excellent job if she was faking being ticked off
- would have been way easier for me to push Mel or cowgirl, and keep a fellow wolf alive
- please feel free to lynch me later when/if converts are a concern

 

[Skimble]

I can lay off. It’s not a big deal

I could be wrong on my reads there, I just thought her posts through the whole Pippy/mel thing seemed genuine.

 

[Animal Midwife]

I mean it does, but more surprised she isn't getting threatened to be mod killed. did she post yesterday?

She did.

 

[Skimble]

100% would do that; not denying that at all.

All I'll say is:
- dy would have done an excellent job if she was faking being ticked off
- would have been way easier for me to push Mel or cowgirl, and keep a fellow wolf alive
- please feel free to lynch me later when/if converts are a concern

I have a hard time believing any wolf would bus the wolf that got extra kills eon. That just seems like a bad idea.

 

[PippyPony]

What do people think of dvmd and vmh, am too lazy to read their iso'd 7+ pages of pages...

I also was reading griff as just a noob trying to be funny. But I admit he could be a wolf crazy noob. Probably won't be voting there though.

kata and lyra stick out to me as they have been neutral on my list the entire game. Going to try to talk to kata some more in pm today to see what I think. I also am interested in the paws vote, but I agreed with a lot of what she's said so she sounded more village to me because of that bias.

I do not feel vmh is wolfy. Her spot on the dy vote and general play makes me think she is village.

DVMD I was not particularly concerned with for a while there, but I did put her back on my watch list after re-reading last night.

 

[SnowshoeDog143]

@Animal Midwife what do you think of dvmd, vmh, kata, and lyra?

 

[PippyPony]

I have a hard time believing any wolf would bus the wolf that got extra kills eon. That just seems like a bad idea.

Full disclosure I was ready to do that to @LyraGardenia in the Lion King lol

But yes, incredibly bad idea.

 

[PippyPony]

Would like to hear from 3m today as well. They were off my radar mostly because of non-participation. Does make them look wolfy.

3M typically has low post volume, so that in and of itself is not wolfy imo.

However, she is smart and typically asks good questions when she shows up, and I don't feel that she's even been posting enough for me to get a read on her this game.

@mmmdreamerz where you at

 

[PippyPony]

Also want more from @SportPonies today, please

 

[Animal Midwife]

@Animal Midwife what do you think of dvmd, vmh, kata, and lyra?

DVMD - Feeling better about her after her reaction to dy.

vmh - Doesn't seem any different than the last game I played with her.

kata - Neutral. Am interested in her saying saying allie's role sounded village, but proceeded to vote her later anyway.

Lyra - I'm not sure. I do wonder why she ability revealed under no pressure though.

 

[PippyPony]

I got a travel guide item yesterday that I could ask one mechanics question and I asked how many nonvillage, nonwolf players there were and got zero as the answer. I don't know how much stock to put in that though, as I have gotten screwed over by items before.

That is the item that Cowgirl had; she asked me in PM how to use it (I believe she first asked me right before I died -- gotta check the timing on that thought so don't quote me on that part).

 

[JustPaws]

Sketchy list:
FTB: unhelpful posts, thought he was sketch from early on, and haven't seen any indication that he isn't, soft vouch for dy
MixedA/Pippy: rezzes that could be vill, could be wolf, could be other. leaning neutral but are in sketch cuz there have been some really bad rezzes recently that no one paid attention to and then that was that
3m: as mentioned last night, content light and didn't remember they were playing so puts them on sketch list cuz they are lurking
cowgirl: could have been doing what pippy asked, could have let wolf pack know about possibly having a role leading to pips n1 death. not really saying anything that i feel like makes them village besides sounding new.
DVMD: seems pretty calm in this game and hasn't gone mono a mono with anyone so honestly this seems abnormal for her in this game.
Neutral:
coop: really don't know what was up with her yesterday seeming to think she was going to be lynched, but then she killed dy and definitely implied it was about to happen so seemed premeditated and purposeful.
VMH like the posts but just don't feel like i know what their wolf looks like
JBoo: isn't she a noob? seems very informed, don't know if her PM partners are helping her whether that's a wolf pack or just the people above and below her
sporty/Kata/lyra: don't feel like i have a feel one way or the other. will need to iso
staff: would have put into village, though pippy could be lying. prob vill leaning cuz hes very new
soflo: seems uber noob but does say some really incriminating things
mel: had been waffling between him and dy while reading all the craziness yesterday while at work. not sure if i think hes cleared
snow: she always seems sketchy to me so need to reread
Vill:
jil: PM partner, seems village there and on thread
AM: seems like AM, and seems vill
Kara: seems vill even though she thinks im sketch
KC: have been agreeing with everything she says, rings the most village to me. this am says she's the rezzer and no one is calling her out so likely. fern: other pm partner, didn't talk much on PM, seems village on thread

While typing this, got notification from Kara harassing me again. jeez. im on lunch give me a break.

Isoing:
Sporty: helpful content, but no reads, except disagreeing with lynch votes... which seem similar to my views. wasn't on the cray bandwagon. asking rule clarification questions, thought she was more of a seasoned player but maybe just seemed that way to me being newer.
Kata:

@Karabiner13

Wolfy - genny (hasn't said much of anything important, I know she's busy), allieh (based on role name/play, can't PM her anymore because she changed places in the roster), FTB (haven't played with him/her, but saying I am village isn't enough), 3m hasn't said anything all that helpful/hasn't been looking for wolves, staff (bizarre postings), cowgirl (various reasons, math, recent posts about mel)

I PM'd you my other thoughts just to avoid a gigantic wall of text.

Lynch allieh

The more I think about the role, the more I'm convinced it was a last ditch attempt by a wolf, plus she said she was livid about people jumping on her before about defending a wolf. Seems like strong word choice when allie usually seems chill to me.

I could most definitely switch to staff.

wolf reads above, (2 vill, one i also though was wolf) other 4 are unconfirmed but I see her logic pretty clearly
Kata really thought allie was wolfy in other posts too, but so did I...

Lyra:

Finally caught up! Some assorted thoughts:
I cringed at Sporty's post at first, but I've been accused of being sketchy multiple times because I said things like that as a genuinely excited villager, so willing to give it a pass for now.
In Finny's How to Get Away With Murder game when I was a wolf, we were given cover roles, so I don't know that I'd put much stock into role claims.
Good point. I'll have to look back at exactly how that lynch went down, but it makes me wonder if the rest of the wolfpack is also nooby and/or wasn't around.
It's a common strategy actually to throw a fellow wolf under the bus in order to get village cred. Different players vary as to how aggressively they'll do so (e.g. helping instigate a lynch vote against someone vs. just bandwagoning on), but it happens pretty often.
I actually hadn't caught that since I was skimming earlier, woops. 😳 I'll get on that now and hopefully she'll be around before lynch close, but for now I'm going to go with my gut and...
Lynch allie because that defense of greeney is still bugging me. Also on my sketch list (roughly in order from most to least sketchy): Gryff, staff, Mel, Crayola, FTB. Both staff and Gryff have made very cryptic, unhelpful posts, staff is doing better about explaining herself today, but the "reasoning" for the attack on dy doesn't make sense. Pretty sure everyone else is either leaning village or hasn't posted enough for me to get a good read.

Well that result doesn't make me look great, I really thought we were onto something there. 😳
Sorry about that, I unexpectedly fell asleep for a bit and didn't see it until after lynch close. But most of what Allie said in her PM she also said on thread, and the rest is kind of moot at this point
Reading over initially I thought the timing of this was sketchy af, but given the results it puts Mel a bit more in the villager column.
Contingency lynch Gryff, I'll be driving 5 hours home tomorrow and then spending time with my fiance, so not sure how much I'll be around.

I appreciate the explanation.
The KC vs. dy stuff feels like villagers misunderstanding each other to me. I'm also not thrilled about FTB being in the lead (at least as of the last tally) since she (?) hasn't played in quite some time and hasn't been on to defend herself that I've seen.

Moving Lyra to my sketch list because while i agree with some of the things she has said, there are some soft vouches and some kind of lame excuses. also was the source for the cover roles, but sure was willing to talk about roles. in other posts.

 

[jaboo]

Just wanted to respond to this:

JBoo: isn't she a noob? seems very informed, don't know if her PM partners are helping her whether that's a wolf pack or just the people above and below her

And point you towards this:

You are making a lot of sense for a brand new player... I think you are making good contributions but the paranoid part of me is wondering if you have some help behind-the-scenes for how you are playing.

My PM partner:

Omg I know. I'm claiming her as my noob because I haven't contributed to her play ability at all but she'll make me look good if I pretend to have been guiding her all along. We're doing a PBL approach

Tbh, I don't know what the hell I'm doing but apparently I've gotten lucky for a few things.

 

[vetmedhead]

Also want more from @SportPonies today, please

That feeling when people are giving reads lists or asking for more from players that I forgot were playing

 

[JustPaws]

DVMD I was not particularly concerned with for a while there, but I did put her back on my watch list after re-reading last night.

Huh. will have to go back through and iso her

 

[PippyPony]

Some posts that caught my eye when I just went back to find where Cowgirl posted about her question results:

A few other things bizarre with your input here.... I'm a wolf and so is dy? Seems a bit bizarre for a wolf to "strongly vouch" another wolf. Doesn't it? And how then are we in different categories??? We should be in the same based on your explanation of your reads.

Also you noobs have got to stop using the damn word vouch except for in mod confirmed alliance situations.

I'm not "vouching" for dy. I'm telling everyone she reads more village to me and based on the people currently playing, I've definitely got more experience playing with her than anyone else. That doesn't mean I can't be wrong but currently for multiple reasons, I've got her more village.

Oh and one last thing....dy tunneled a villager? Holy crap, surely none of us have ever done that as a villager??? Right? (Totally didn't just happen last game with me and you). Oh, wait, it is actually more common for villagers to tunnel....yeah. Your reads are way off and bizarre.

Oh yeah, Michigan, good.

My thinking Dy is a wolf is based on you being a wolf defending her. I'm okay with finding out if you are a wolf first and willing to eat my words about Dy if thats not the case.
And yes village tunneling on village happens often which is another factor in why Dy is lower on my wolf list than you are.

ETA: Michigan is great
I hope you're getting a kick out of this.

Um, I'm not that stupid and you know that. Making me more suspicious of you.

I just can't quite pull the lynch on you yet because of your post about allie. It rings too much of how LIS and I reacted....we just reacted in the opposite direction because no vanillager in the PM... and allie mentioned vanillager and it was odd. And I'm going to get mod smitted...

So Michigan is good....you might want to update your post. 😉

Mel, how are you feeling about this now?
I could see this exchange being village DVMD. I could also just as easily see it as being wolf DVMD. It is within her *cough*meta*cough* to defend dy and other people she is friends with, so while I don't typically think she would go hard on defending a fellow wolf...I'm not ruling it out here. Also, she does extremely village-looking things as a wolf. Dy's role could also make it a little more likely.

Originally missed this giant post from 3M:

Sorry guys. I worked all day yesterday and then promptly missed lynch close because I last-minute went to see Star Wars (which is freaking awesome btw).

Here’s some thoughts when I was getting caught up this morning...



Village points, very early on and first person to call out a known wolf



Early on too, so not a ton of value, but just noted because BBC was right about greeney




Village points for Kara, this got the greeney lynch going



Soft-vouchy for greeney



This is so typical of Snowy, that giving her villager points for it. She always likes to call me out early on haha



You’ve played several games I think....has there ever been a rhyme of reason to ties? Hmmm


Village points for cowgirl, especially with Pippy back and what she’s said. Mel is high on my list



With Allie a known village now, this seems like a village statement



I completely agree with this. If you are going to say something vouchy on the thread, make it obvious



I need to go back and read this, but def points coop on my list



This makes me look at Lyra a little as to why she didn’t respond



Mel definitely said that he didn’t know Pippy’s role which is sketch as hell considering. I had a bunch of “staff is sketch” posts included in this that I had to go back and delete though lol

I think my vote is either going to Mel or Coop today.

Feel slightly more ok with 3M based on this; still want to hear from her today though.

Have had a mostly village read on Jil and I think I can usually read her as a wolf pretty well, but this post was awfully strange:

Lynch mel

Kudos to whomever brought pippy back. I was hoping she’d be rezzed and could let us know who was telling the truth. Mel seems like a liar, and the only reason pip would be redirected and killed n1 would be because a wolf knew her role.

Not sure that it bumps her out of my village leans at the moment, but just noting it because I didn't see it before and it stood out to me when I just read it.

 

[Melchizedek]

Thoughts on Lyra:
I didn't like that she village read both KC and Dy when I had them as part of my top wolf reads, but it also didn't seem like a good move for a wolf to offer up that there might be cover roles (unless the wolves have no cover roles and she said this specifically to secure the Allie lynch. Risky because then the backlash of that could have come back to bite Lyra. Her absence post Allie-lynch could have been to lay low and stay off people's radar in conjunction with being busy IRL)
In any case she was my only PM partner yesterday so I had no choice but to role reveal and explain some things to her early in the day. She came back an hour or so after Dy got vig'd and messaged back with her role (which she didn't have to do. its not a role that is inherently village; I don't know how to interpret) and said that she thinks I'm village (but at that point most of the thread was thinking I was less wolfy because of the Dy flip, so idk if what I said convinced her or she was just sheeping the thread)

Overall I'm finding her sketchy, and her being busy in real life is muddling my read on her. I'd be willing to lynch here depending on how she responds to these accusations.

 

[PippyPony]

Thoughts on Lyra:
... it also didn't seem like a good move for a wolf to offer up that there might be cover roles (unless the wolves have no cover roles and she said this specifically to secure the Allie lynch.

I totally forgot she did this. This...gives me some tingly feels based off of a past game. Not substantial ones, but enough where it just bumped her higher up my wolf list.

Willing to come back to FTB because I still have a sketch lean on her, but I would like some heat on Lyra for a bit based on the cover roles comment.

Unlynch FTB
Lynch Lyra

 

[JustPaws]

Originally missed this giant post from 3M:

Feel slightly more ok with 3M based on this; still want to hear from her today though.

Did you read the rest of that day though? didn't vote for the people he said he was leaning towards and only voted after the Cray bandwagon got rolling... the rest of these reactions just don't do much for me

 

[PippyPony]

Only thing that still gives me pause with Lyra is that while her ability is not inherently village, that is not exactly proof of anything, and she used her restriction in a way that was not too detrimental to gameplay, I think.

Have seen that role be village in other games (e.g. PBC in vet clinic game); have seen people get lynched over it.

 

[PippyPony]

Did you read the rest of that day though? didn't vote for the people he said he was leaning towards and only voted after the Cray bandwagon got rolling... the rest of these reactions just don't do much for me

Nope, did not continue to read through -- that particular post just sounds like village 3M to me.

 

[DVMDream]

Some posts that caught my eye when I just went back to find where Cowgirl posted about her question results:






Mel, how are you feeling about this now?
I could see this exchange being village DVMD. I could also just as easily see it as being wolf DVMD. It is within her *cough*meta*cough* to defend dy and other people she is friends with, so while I don't typically think she would go hard on defending a fellow wolf...I'm not ruling it out here. Also, she does extremely village-looking things as a wolf. Dy's role could also make it a little more likely.

Originally missed this giant post from 3M:

Feel slightly more ok with 3M based on this; still want to hear from her today though.

Have had a mostly village read on Jil and I think I can usually read her as a wolf pretty well, but this post was awfully strange:

Not sure that it bumps her out of my village leans at the moment, but just noting it because I didn't see it before and it stood out to me when I just read it.

If I knew dy were a wolf and at the point I saw things yesterday, I'd call BS on everything she was saying and throw her under the bus hard. I really did read her as village, that's how she typically is plus she isn't one to go after LIS like that unless she has reason to. So I had multiple reasons to lean her a bit more village in my mind. I was wrong. Not the first time, won't be the last.


I'm unlikely to come back on today, maybe even tomorrow, I'm playing doctor and tech today because the only tech we have is about a useful as a brick wall.

 

[JustPaws]

Only thing that still gives me pause with Lyra is that while her ability is not inherently village, that is not exactly proof of anything, and she used her restriction in a way that was not too detrimental to gameplay, I think.

Have seen that role be village in other games (e.g. PBC in vet clinic game); have seen people get lynched over it.

meant to mention this ability also in my iso. she says she can't direct it, so she might not make it too bad since it could effect wolves too...

i could easily vote lyra, FTB, or 3m.
will wait to hear from any of them...

 

[Skimble]

Only thing that still gives me pause with Lyra is that while her ability is not inherently village, that is not exactly proof of anything, and she used her restriction in a way that was not too detrimental to gameplay, I think.

Have seen that role be village in other games (e.g. PBC in vet clinic game); have seen people get lynched over it.

This is where I am with Lyra too. Something about her play is reminding me of when she was a wolf. But she hasn’t been using her role in a detrimental way really, and she certainly could... though was she the one that silenced genny? (I’m actually not sure what her post restriction was that day, I should probably go back and look.)

 

[JustPaws]

This is where I am with Lyra too. Something about her play is reminding me of when she was a wolf. But she hasn’t been using her role in a detrimental way really, and she certainly could... though was she the one that silenced genny? (I’m actually not sure what her post restriction was that day, I should probably go back and look.)

pretty sure she said that genny had to apologize in every post? back to mobile so can't search easily

 

[Skimble]

pretty sure she said that genny had to apologize in every post? back to mobile so can't search easily

Yeah, I’m on mobile too (have been all day actually). Apologizing in every post isn’t that bad, and coops restriction was kind of funny.

 

[katashark]

Forgot to

*****unlynch cowgirl*****

 

[Animal Midwife]

Unofficial Day 4 Lynch Tally
SoFlo (2) - Coop, Mel
Paws (1) - Kara
FTB (1) - AM
cowgirl () -
Lyra (1) - Pippy

5/22
lynch close in 7.5 hours

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

I'm sticking with my gut here. Lynch Gryff

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

The tourists awoke to find one of their own macerated on the ground by the tour bus.

Dead is @genny, a Tart Cherry who had no special abilities.

Lets give a warm welcome back to @LetItSnow! Let's give a warm welcome to @MixedAnimals77, who is joining the tour!


What's that?!
A lightning bolt came down from the sky and zapped poor genny's dead, cherry body. Some of the tourists looked around trying to figure out where this lightning came from, but couldn't find the source, so they went on with their day.



It is now Day 4. 22 players remain. Lynch deadline is 10 pm EST. Please note roster changes and adjust private messages accordingly.


Upper Peninsula “The Yoopers”
2. @fromthebox
4. @LetItSnow @MixedAnimals77
6. @Coopah
7. @mmmdreamerz
9. @vetmedhead
10. @johnnaboo

Mackinac Bridge “Mighty Mac”
11. @DVMDream
13. @PippyPony
14. @cowgirl92
16. @SportPonies

Lower Peninsula “The Trolls”
18. @Jilary
19. @Animal Midwife
20. @Karabiner13
21. @katashark
23. @SnowshoeDog143
24. @kcoughli
25. @staff_wielder
26. @TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo
27. @StayingPositive2017

Out of Service
3. @SoFloGryffindor
12. @Melchizedek
28. @LyraGardenia

Hell, Michigan
17. greeneyegal92 - Buckeyes
22. allieh8607 - Lake Erie
5. Teepster87 - The Henry Ford
8. dyachei - Construction
15. Crayola227 - Bronner's Christmas Wonderland
1. genny - Tart Cherry

Was this mod flair? Kinda sounds like it may have been a vigilante kill (but wolves beat them to it)

 

[Skimble]

I’m about to go see Star Wars!!!

Lynch Lyra

Since no one else is feeling mel the way I do.

 

[PippyPony]

I’m about to go see Star Wars!!!

omg have fun - it's so good!!

 

[Animal Midwife]

Was this mod flair? Kinda sounds like it may have been a vigilante kill (but wolves beat them to it)

Usually lightning is used in reference to mod killing/mod flair.

 

[KCgophervet]

Was this mod flair? Kinda sounds like it may have been a vigilante kill (but wolves beat them to it)

Before the write up genny tempted the mods to smite her I believe.

 

[JustPaws]

just saw in another thread that FTB is working overnights so for now I am going to
lynch Lyra

 

[JustPaws]

Unofficial Day 4 Lynch Tally
SoFlo (3) - Coop, Mel, BBC
Paws (1) - Kara
FTB (1) - AM
cowgirl () -
Lyra (3) - Pippy, Jil, Paws

8/22
lynch close in 7 hours

 

[katashark]

Usually lightning is used in reference to mod killing/mod flair.

I had no idea that was a thing. lol

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

just saw in another thread that FTB is working overnights so for now I am going to
lynch Lyra

Why on Earth does their work schedule impact whether or not you think they are wolfy?? 😵

 

[Animal Midwife]

I had no idea that was a thing. lol

You should read the Bar game haha

 

[jaboo]

Before the write up genny tempted the mods to smite her I believe.

Was her PM partner. Can confirm.

 

[Melchizedek]

Mel, how are you feeling about this now?
I could see this exchange being village DVMD. I could also just as easily see it as being wolf DVMD. It is within her *cough*meta*cough* to defend dy and other people she is friends with, so while I don't typically think she would go hard on defending a fellow wolf...I'm not ruling it out here. Also, she does extremely village-looking things as a wolf. Dy's role could also make it a little more likely.

I was feeling better about DVMD last night, but you also know how not in the right frame of mind I was, soooo take that with a grain of salt.

Case for Wolf-DVMD
Dy was a very valuable wolf so DVMD was voting me to save her. I don't think DVMD IS stupid enough to defend a fellow wolf so hard on thread, but could have thought the risk was worth it to keep the double kill. It also took her until after 6 people (really 8 but AM and I had waffled off) voted for Crayola to come off of my wagon and vote for Cray too. Once again this is muddled by the fact that she was at work so idfk.

Case for Village-DVMD
After you asked me this question, I went back and looked through the wolf chat from The Bar and she was mostly passive in the decision making, only a little guidance here and there. Multiple places, she mentioned she would have no problem bussing people in the pack if they came up sketchy, and she didn't here.

I'm have her just barely village but not by any logical reason. I've learned from experience trying to read AM that when I end up going in circles on someone, they're usually village.

 

[jaboo]

Before the write up genny tempted the mods to smite her I believe.

IIRC, the phrase "whiny bitches babies" was used in reference to mods

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

Was her PM partner. Can confirm.

What did she do?

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

IIRC, the phrase "whiny bitches babies" was used in reference to mods

Nevermind haha

 

[JustPaws]

Why on Earth does their work schedule impact whether or not you think they are wolfy?? 😵

just don't think he's going to be on in the very near future, so opting to vote for lyra who i am leaning towards and see if she has comments.

 

[MixedAnimals77]

If I'm remembering correctly people were leaning staff was village? Have not heard from them recently. Would like to have their thoughts. @staff_wielder

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

I don't think DVMD would have supported Dy like that as a wolf, so I'm still hedging moreso towards her being village.

FTB is my next lynch after Gryff. Posts from the last day are really rubbing me the wrong way, and she still isn't actively contributing anything.

Want to ISO Lyra and Kata, since they are both blending into the scenery. Will do this afternoon, but right now I need to shovel my driveway and then try to nap off the hangover. Shoutout to snow for knocking out power to work and letting me go home. 😛

*Putting this here as a reminder to myself to look at who pushed the Cray lynch and compare to who pushed the Allie lynch

 

[PippyPony]

If I'm remembering correctly people were leaning staff was village? Have not heard from them recently. Would like to have their thoughts. @staff_wielder

I was redirected onto Staff the night I died and got my result -- he seered as village.

Obviously still does not preclude the chance of unseerable wolf or possible convert, but those are much less likely imo so I am not prioritizing him atm.