WildZenge Presents: Horizon Zero DaWWn

Started by WildZoo
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Are you thinking they're w/w, w/v, v/v?

No idea honestly, just stuck out to me as strange especially during the votes last night. Could be W/W, but the other ones can't be ruled out.

Do we think there was a night cancel last night? Kinda confused why someone would choose to cancel N1 besides maybe they're a villager thinking they'll die early on and want the chance to stop a night kill

I've always told it's better to use your limited use abilities earlier in case of NK.
 
I've always told it's better to use your limited use abilities earlier in case of NK.
I guess I'm just thinking along the lines of night cancel being useful later on if we feel stuck on wolf reads and need to buy time for more conversation to happen, but I do see the point of doing it early in case of being yeeted or NKed
 
I dont necessarily think it was a w/w thing, just pointing out that if she were a wolf, and thought itd score her wolf points not to move, you gave her a way to move elsewhere without looking terribly suspicious.

I dont think Bob/April are w/w, I was just establishing the timeline of what happened, and if someone involved in the waffle were to be a wolf, its looks worse on her than on you. Agree the easiest thing would have been to just sit on Mel, but his re-emergence right before close may have gotten her thinking that it looked bad to stay there and when she saw a chance to move, she did.

I guess I still think that moving to someone knowing you're going to cause them to flip can score you just as many wolf points if not more

How are you personally reading April and Bob if you don't think they're w/w?
 
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I have been working 8-6 and getting home at 7 the last several days. My end of day vote is because that is literally the first chance I had to read the thread. If you’re criticizing my play for a self prez, then you better start looking elsewhere
On that note, care to give the rest of your reads?
That sucks about work.

Right now, I’m not reading anyone overtly wolf so I’m just going to the bottom of my list.
Most village to least
Dina- can’t see a wolf moving their vote the way she did. Too much exposure and to wind up on alley

Mel/Cubs- (not ignoring possibility of pocket attempts)
Cray- normal with some pings. Hopefully due to amount of posts.
AM- normal
TME
Pleasey
Supershorty- lots of effort but also some ping
MsP
Genny- I don’t like lack of participation she is having and I previously saw with
April
Sporty

Not a great list but I feel good about the top.
 
I'm feeling a lot of buddying between Bob and Mel, not just today/last night but early last cycle too with Bob questioning april's vote on Mel.

Also @genny why did you decide to stay on MsP yesterday?
I do the exact opposite of buddying as a wolf. And I wouldn’t do it openly. I am much more likely to let a wolf go down than I am to allow the whole pack to go down too by protecting.
I feel like I must be misreading this, can you clarify
Organized types- focused, less hedge, more confident in their votes even when they don’t know
Disorganized- uncertain, hedge, waffle, less committed to a pick

I think organized come off as better players despite similar amount of misyeets bc they brush off misyeets and hold up their correct yeets. (And I hate saying someone is a “better” player than another bc it’s all for fun anyway)
 
Yeah I think that's been well established

Are you wolf reading me for it? How about april?

Waffles are one thing, but waffling and sealing someone's yeet fate vs just waffling to someone means you're putting yourself out there to be evaluated the next day. It's something to be considered



What do you mean with with the bolded? Do you think they're w/w?

The thing is Bob was up for yeet when I moved off you to him, and if april was "baiting me off" it would give me indication that her and bob were w/w, and she didn't want him to be yeeted. However, I don't see them as compatible based on their earlier interactions. If she was a wolf she could've left me stay on bob, she could've stayed on Mel (or even waffled to someone else) and then not been caught up in the wafflefest on a now flipped villager, which has now made her look sus today.

Hopefully that makes sense



What do you mean by this?
It seems like I read more sus (from the group)of Dina than not
 
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okay i've been busy overanalyzing the votes from last night via Shorty's fancy tracker and these are some rambling takeaways from the votes i found most interesting.

waffle party/late votes

Dina - moved her vote twice in ways that both protected Sporty at times when she was tied for the lead. The first move could also have been protective of genny (or cubs, if her initial vote there was a beep beep). As others have pointed out, this seems a bit too obvious for a wolf, though it’s possible if other packmate(s) weren’t active enough at close that Dina felt she had to do it.

April - Points have been made about she could be a wolf “baiting” Dina to join her, but Dina seems defensive of this idea. If a protective move, Sporty or Bob were leading at the time.

Sporty - self prez is NAI, more interested in what others movement suggests about their thoughts on her

Mel - very late vote that put sporty into a tie with bob (therefore could be an attempt to protect bob). Bob has been oddly defensive of Mel, so this is interesting to me. If SP is village this becomes extra concerning for me.

other votes i find interesting

Cray - sat on sporty since start of D1. One thing cray told me when we wolfed together is that she likes to pick a person to make an enemy of, and I worried early on that this might be what’s happening here. The long late night posts from cray felt in line with this (particulary #487) - she made some good points but they felt almost over-explainy for her this early in the game, different from her usual PBP

Genny - sat on MsP since game start, claims to have been away at close but was at least joke posting within 30 min of close when MsP had already appeared

vote breakdown by wagon size, for later reference:
- Alley wagon: pleasey (first on, cubs only leading wagon at time, lots of single votes), April (waffle), Dina (waffle), Sporty (self-prez)
- smaller wagons: Cray, MsP, Mel (all on Sporty); Cubs, me (on genny); Shorty, AM (on bob)
- single votes: Alley (cubs), Genny (MsP), Bob (April),
 
I wouldn't say this is always true because outside the Chaos hyperbus you have supported your packmates that I've seen.
I let a wolf die D1 of the chaos game as well. Can’t remember who. In Madagascar I didn’t defend pippy or rescue.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a time I defend wolves. (I sound like a terrible wolf packmate when I say it out loud. But it is what it is)
 
I let a wolf die D1 of the chaos game as well. Can’t remember who. In Madagascar I didn’t defend pippy or rescue.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a time I defend wolves. (I sound like a terrible wolf packmate when I say it out loud. But it is what it is)
I'm pretty sure that you kept defending in Madagascar. You didn't vote a single wolf that game and always gave a reason to vote a villager (even if most villagers cleared said voted villager).

As for Olympics, the top wagons were you/Pippy so voting pretty much any villager in that scenario outs you both. Even the Chaos vote became egregious.

Not that either of these are incorrect strategy, but it's untrue to say you only bus or ignore partners.
 
I let a wolf die D1 of the chaos game as well. Can’t remember who. In Madagascar I didn’t defend pippy or rescue.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a time I defend wolves. (I sound like a terrible wolf packmate when I say it out loud. But it is what it is)
I went back and looked at Madagascar. At least in that game, you're right - I didn't really see you defend any of your packmates when they were under heat. I saw some posts where you were supporting them, but they were given in the context of reads and weren't when there was pressure being applied. You did have several defense posts of villagers who were on their way to misyeets (Zenge and mkg, particularly). But it seemed like your strategy, when pressure was on your packmates, was to push an alternative rather than strongly defend a packmate.

Going to go take a look at Olympics in a bit here.
 
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I'm pretty sure that you kept defending in Madagascar. You didn't vote a single wolf that game and always gave a reason to vote a villager (even if most villagers cleared said voted villager).

As for Olympics, the top wagons were you/Pippy so voting pretty much any villager in that scenario outs you both. Even the Chaos vote became egregious.

Not that either of these are incorrect strategy, but it's untrue to say you only bus or ignore partners.
Why misrepresent me and say I said “I only bus”?? I said I do the opposite of buddying up with other wolves. Which is true.

When I said pippy, I was referring to Madagascar and how I didn’t protect her. I think comments were made that it was weird the wolves did not protect her.

The fact remains that I do not buddy up as a wolf. As a matter of fact, my experience as Wolfpack has mostly been total lack of teamwork (which I found odd. I always envisioned packmates sitting up half the night and scheming convoluted plots)

Whatever. Let’s not go down the rabbit hole with this.
 
I went back and looked at Madagascar. At least in that game, you're right - I didn't really see you defend any of your packmates when they were under heat. I saw some posts where you were supporting them, but they were given in the context of reads and weren't when there was pressure being applied. You did have several defense posts of villagers who were on their way to misyeets (Zenge and mkg, particularly). But it seemed like your strategy, when pressure was on your packmates, was to push an alternative rather than strongly defend a packmate.

Going to go take a look at Olympics in a bit here.
It pings me when AM who has amazing memory on these games comes up with wrong info. It is probably unfair to hold anyone to a standard of never misremembering, but she knows her WW history!

Again, let’s not go down a rabbit hole.
 
Why misrepresent me and say I said “I only bus”?? I said I do the opposite of buddying up with other wolves. Which is true.

When I said pippy, I was referring to Madagascar and how I didn’t protect her. I think comments were made that it was weird the wolves did not protect her.

The fact remains that I do not buddy up as a wolf. As a matter of fact, my experience as Wolfpack has mostly been total lack of teamwork (which I found odd. I always envisioned packmates sitting up half the night and scheming convoluted plots)

Whatever. Let’s not go down the rabbit hole with this.
I assumed that was what you were getting at when you said "you don't defend partners". Defending is providing any form of support including, but not limited to, buddying. I remembered elsewise and brought that up.

You couldn't defend Pippy in Madagascar because she was mechanically outted. Even cubs didn't do anything there. Before she was outted, however, you made haste of pushing me for pushing her (among other things) to discredit her being seen as sketchy/getting yeeted.

You also have mentioned partners versus pretending they don't exist which is another thing I was debunking.

I have no idea what was happening in wolfchat; I'm just stating what I saw on thread.

It doesn't need to be a whole rabbit hole, but I can't let incorrect meta analysis be used as clearing device.
 
It pings me when AM who has amazing memory on these games comes up with wrong info. It is probably unfair to hold anyone to a standard of never misremembering, but she knows her WW history!

Again, let’s not go down a rabbit hole.
Just getting started looking at your Olympics posts, but this statement (or variations thereof) is one that you've said consistently when wolfing. In Madagascar, you tried to push AM quite hard and claimed she could be bussing (I remember thinking that was an interesting choice for a noob wolf to make). I don't remember if you did that in Olympics, but you don't have many pages of posts, so I'll see in a bit here.

I also have come across a post in Olympics where you kind of white-knighted Mel with the same reference to the "Mel says we need him to win" comment, so that's kind of interesting to see again.
 
In Madagascar, you tried to push AM quite hard and claimed she could be bussing (I remember thinking that was an interesting choice for a noob wolf to make). I don't remember if you did that in Olympics, but you don't have many pages of posts, so I'll see in a bit here.
it must've happened in another game too because i remember this happening and i didn't play/read madagascar. I think it was olympics? but i'd have to check
 
Going to go take a look at Olympics in a bit here.
Olympics was a little different from Madagascar, in that you (Bob, in case it's not clear since I'm quoting myself) didn't try to push AM as a misyeet aggressively, but you did pick fights with her, including bringing up the possibility of her bussing again (@TelemarketingEnigma, this is probably what you're remembering because you replied to it).

That being said, I didn't see any instances of staunch wolf defending in Olympics either. Actually, according to the Xenforo search, Bob didn't even say Pippy's name once during the game, and he and Chaos were on such a busfest that there was no defending there.
 
I assumed that was what you were getting at when you said "you don't defend partners". Defending is providing any form of support including, but not limited to, buddying. I remembered elsewise and brought that up.

You couldn't defend Pippy in Madagascar because she was mechanically outted. Even cubs didn't do anything there. Before she was outted, however, you made haste of pushing me for pushing her (among other things) to discredit her being seen as sketchy/getting yeeted.

You also have mentioned partners versus pretending they don't exist which is another thing I was debunking.

I have no idea what was happening in wolfchat; I'm just stating what I saw on thread.

It doesn't need to be a whole rabbit hole, but I can't let incorrect meta analysis be used as clearing device.
Did you notice me buddying up prior to her being outed? Or to put it another way…

Do you think that my wolf meta is to buddy? Or the opposite? How about in consideration of the average wolf meta?

I don’t think we are disagreeing as much as getting caught up on semantics versus generalizations. ie- someone says they don’t do something. You will reply, not true you did that 1 time out of the 100x they have done something. Meta to me, is the vast majority way that people play. Otherwise, no one has a meta
 
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Just getting started looking at your Olympics posts, but this statement (or variations thereof) is one that you've said consistently when wolfing. In Madagascar, you tried to push AM quite hard and claimed she could be bussing (I remember thinking that was an interesting choice for a noob wolf to make). I don't remember if you did that in Olympics, but you don't have many pages of posts, so I'll see in a bit here.

I also have come across a post in Olympics where you kind of white-knighted Mel with the same reference to the "Mel says we need him to win" comment, so that's kind of interesting to see again.
First, I already said I bring up the “we need Mel to win” quote every chance I can to jest/give him a hard time.

Second, (and I may be giving away my wolf strategy here) I white knight villagers when I am wolf bc it is obviously easy to know who is villagers. I find it easier to accurately hold up/white knight villagers. I find it difficult to falsely condemn innocent villager to death. Although it becomes easier with repeat wolfing! Lol
 
Did you notice me buddying up prior to her being outed? Or to out another way…
Yes, like I mentioned, you tried to paint those pushing her, and Strog, as wolves trying to sink the village.
Do you think that my wolf meta is to buddy? Or the opposite? How about in consideration of the average wolf meta?
I can't say what all you wouldn't do as a wolf this early on, but I am aware of the things you have done. Defending partners by eliminating those directly threatening to your partners is one of those things.
I don’t think we are disagreeing as much as getting caught up on semantics versus generalizations. ie- someone says they don’t do something. You will reply, not true you did that 1 time out of the 100x they have done something. Meta to me, is the vast majority way that people play. Otherwise, no one has a meta
Not understanding what you mean by average meta since every person plays different.
 
it must've happened in another game too because i remember this happening and i didn't play/read madagascar. I think it was olympics? but i'd have to check
it must've happened in another game too because i remember this happening and i didn't play/read madagascar. I think it was olympics? but i'd have to check
Again, buddying up is different then misyeeting villagers. (Or maybe it is just how I understand buddying up).

For instance, me pushing a village misyeet is general Wolfpack strategy. Buddying up would be saying how great a fellow wolf is and how obvious it is they are village.

Right now, I would say I was buddying up Dina by saying she is very likely village.
 
Again, buddying up is different then misyeeting villagers. (Or maybe it is just how I understand buddying up).

For instance, me pushing a village misyeet is general Wolfpack strategy. Buddying up would be saying how great a fellow wolf is and how obvious it is they are village.

Right now, I would say I was buddying up Dina by saying she is very likely village.
Yes, you're confusing buddying with it's more extreme counterpart powerwolfing. They do have to go hand-in-hand.
 
Yes, like I mentioned, you tried to paint those pushing her, and Strog, as wolves trying to sink the village.

I can't say what all you wouldn't do as a wolf this early on, but I am aware of the things you have done. Defending partners by eliminating those directly threatening to your partners is one of those things.

Not understanding what you mean by average meta since every person plays different.
Okay. Well. Agree to disagree. I know what I’m thinking when I wolf. And I actively try not to show bias towards a wolf bc I assume if I get yeeted, then I am taking them down with me. And vice versa
 
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I would say the average wolf philosophy is to protect the Wolfpack at (almost)all cost. I have heard that several times. I disagree and try to be on the other side of the spectrum. (Don’t take the whole pack down for one person)
Yeah... that's not a perspective shared by everyone so I can't universally apply it. Off the top of my head, Stagg and DocE are two such players that will basically sell out their entire pack just so they can have cred to live longer.
 
If you want specifics, Chaos and Genny pretty much no-showed for big portions of wolfing. IIRC- Genny got subbed
Chaos didn't know the game had started, IIRC, and genny subbed out for IRL reasons, so I'm not sure you can read into those specific examples of lowposting as being wolf strategy.
 
@BobLoblaw78, did you answer this and I just missed it? I'm still struggling to understand why Sporty is your top wolf read right now.
No. I just went back and looked. I forgot she was self prezzing. When I remembered I tacked it on at the end. But I’ll explain.

5 ppl involved at the end. Dina, Mel, sporty, alley and me. Odds are that one was a wolf. Assume I am village (which I obv know).

If Mel was a wolf. He wouldn’t have switched to sporty if I wasn’t a wolf. So Mel not a wolf in my eyes.

Alley flipped and obviously not a wolf.

Dina wouldn’t have switched off me if she was wolf. She looks bad waffling. And it being last second regardless. But very difficult to believe she would switch off me if she was wolf and I wasn’t. So Dina not a wolf.

Sporty switched last minute doesn’t look great. It can be chalked up to self prez. But she said she didn’t think alley was wolf. Then she also had some pings.

Without any other strong wolf reads, she is def my number one. If she is village then that is unfortunate. But nothing says she is more village than anyone else right now.

I am overall feeling good with this logic bc even if I am wrong about sporty, I feel that Dina and Mel have done switched that make them highly unlikely to be a wolf.

Easy to see since I know I’m not wolf. And I know that no one is 100% cleared. But to have 3 fairly confident reads on villagers is a good start for D1.
 
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It was a combination of not having a wolf feel on anyone else

And really, this post below has a lot of truth to it. I felt stuck and even though I had wanted to avoid voting Alley until I could get more than one cycle of reads on her, I didn't have anyone wolfier.
Have you gotten any wolfy feels since her flip?
 
Chaos didn't know the game had started, IIRC, and genny subbed out for IRL reasons, so I'm not sure you can read into those specific examples of lowposting as being wolf strategy.
I agree fully. I stated that I don’t think a wolf would get kicked for low posts where a villager would not feel as obligated. I just wanted to be fair and objective by listing what I did know.
 
No. I just went back and looked. I forgot she was self prezzing. When I remembered I tacked it on at the end. But I’ll explain.

5 ppl involved at the end. Dina, Mel, sporty, alley and me. Odds are that one was a wolf. Assume I am village (which I obv know).

Sporty switched last minute doesn’t look great. It can be chalked up to self prez. But she said she didn’t think alley was wolf. Then she also had some pings.

Without any other strong wolf reads, she is def my number one. If she is village then that is unfortunate. But nothing says she is more village than anyone else right now.
Ok, but by this point (bolded), if Sporty is village, she KNOWS she's village, and even if she was pretty sure alley wasn't a wolf, it wouldn't be a guarantee the way that it would be knowing her own aff. There was nowhere else to throw the vote in those final 3 minutes to self prez other than onto alley - the tie was between the 2 of them.

If you were in that situation as a villager, with <3 minutes left, would you do anything differently?
 
No. I just went back and looked. I forgot she was self prezzing. When I remembered I tacked it on at the end. But I’ll explain.

5 ppl involved at the end. Dina, Mel, sporty, alley and me. Odds are that one was a wolf. Assume I am village (which I obv know).

If Mel was a wolf. He wouldn’t have switched to sporty if I wasn’t a wolf. So Mel not a wolf in my eyes.

Alley flipped and obviously not a wolf.

Dina wouldn’t have switched off me if she was wolf. She looks bad waffling. And it being last second regardless. But very difficult to believe she would switch off me if she was wolf and I wasn’t. So Dina not a wolf.

Sporty switched last minute doesn’t look great. It can be chalked up to self prez. But she said she didn’t think alley was wolf. Then she also had some pings.

Without any other strong wolf reads, she is def my number one. If she is village then that is unfortunate. But nothing says she is more village than anyone else right now.

I am overall feeling good with this logic bc even if I am wrong about sporty, I feel that Dina and Mel have done switched that make them highly unlikely to be a wolf.

Easy to see since I know I’m not wolf. And I know that no one is 100% cleared. But to have 3 fairly confident reads on villagers is a good start for D1.
Is this Mel read hinged solely upon wolf!Sporty or is it independent of that?
 
Ok, but by this point (bolded), if Sporty is village, she KNOWS she's village, and even if she was pretty sure alley wasn't a wolf, it wouldn't be a guarantee the way that it would be knowing her own aff. There was nowhere else to throw the vote in those final 3 minutes to self prez other than onto alley - the tie was between the 2 of them.

If you were in that situation as a villager, with <3 minutes left, would you do anything differently?
Nope. But if I can rule out 4 out of 5 as villagers. I will take those odds.

Like I said. I can understand her move. It would be unfortunate if she is a misyeet, but from where I’m sitting she is the least village person.

But yes. She can def be village. She did have a good post after. Please give me a better place to vote
 
Ngl Cray, I was a little disappointed that you didn’t say my tone was different yesterday - I felt like that was turning into a D1 tradition/almost inside joke and now the streak has been broken.
Yeah, I felt bad too, but the reality is that whenever I said that, I meant it, I wasn't kidding. I didn't feel your tone was different this time, it was more an issue with content as Mel pointed out.
 
Night 1

I'm really earning my best flavor writer award so far this game...
~insert writeup snazziness here, in a few hours...~

Early in the night, a decree was issued that everyone was to remain in their homes, no exceptions.

No one has died

13 players remain


1. @Animal Midwife
B. @Melchizedek
2. @Crayola227
3. @TelemarketingEnigma
5. @BobLoblaw78
6. @genny
7. @Ms Procrastinator
11. @Aprilthearab
12. @vetschoolsletmeinplease
14. @SportPonies
15. @cubsrule4e
17. @supershorty
18. @Dinashadow

Dead:
4. @alleycat03 - Erend - Village PMer

Tots:
1. @samac
2. @Lawpy
3. @holdthemayo
4. @SARdoghandler
5. @kaydubs
6. @WonderingStudent
7. @Barkley13
8. @Viscernable
9. @FrostySparrow

It is now Day 2. Vote closes at 10pm EST/9pm CST/8pm MST/7pm fantasyland TOMORROW (9/30).

Please remember that PMs are CLOSED during the day.
​
Lol so I didn't read closely enough to see it was a night cancel, nvm
 
No. Independent.

He would’ve left his vote on me if he was wolf. I think switching draws attention. Makes him look wolfish. He could be doing it as TWTBW cred but unlikely. I think he would’ve just laid low.
Mel's vote was never on you. He only voted once, and it was for Sporty.
 
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