2009-2010 University of Michigan Application Thread

[Dawgman]

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You're pretty much going to pay through the nose to go to any OOS school unless you get lucky with a nice scholarship/grant. But yes, my IS med school with no financial aid considered is quite a bit cheaper than UMich with the financial package included. It's probably part of why they overaccept OOS so much... out of that large pool of acceptees, a small portion are going to be willing to dig a nice, deep hole of debt to go to a school like Michigan.

Hmmm. It would be nice if UMich were straight about this before getting applicants to pay for an expensive cross-country trip for interviews, go through the angst of waiting and acceptance, perhaps forgo other schools, just to find out they're being milked to subsidize the locals.

Seems likely that the most competitive OOS applicants who are presumably offered the greatest scholarship/grant money, are sufficiently competitive to go to even better schools than UMich.

Does anybody here know if out of all those many Billion$ for the new national health law, any scholarship/grant money is set aside to help med students?

 

[bobsmith]

Hmmm. It would be nice if UMich were straight about this before getting applicants to pay for an expensive cross-country trip for interviews, go through the angst of waiting and acceptance, perhaps forgo other schools, just to find out they're being milked to subsidize the locals.

Seems likely that the most competitive OOS applicants who are presumably offered the greatest scholarship/grant money, are sufficiently competitive to go to even better schools than UMich.

Does anybody here know if out of all those many Billion$ for the new national health law, any scholarship/grant money is set aside to help med students?

😕 All the cost of attendance information is freely available on their website, so you could have looked into all of this before you applied.

Also if you look at your handouts from interview day, the OOS cost of attendance is pretty clearly listed there. It's not like they're hiding this information or making it difficult to find or lying about it.

And it's really not that you're paying to subsidize the in-state residents' tuition. The in-state residents (/their parents) pay taxes to the state, and the state gives funding to the medical school, which is why tuition is lower for in-state residents. This isn't unique to Michigan...

 

[SteinUmStein]

Yeah, as annoying as OOS tuition is, we had all the information going in. If we don't like it, we don't have to go. And that very well may be what happens for me. Not everyone gets to go to their dream school... money does indeed make the world go 'round. 🙄

 

[bobsmith]

yeah, that sucks stein 🙁

did you hear back from them about need-based stuff? and any luck getting pitt to speed things up?

 

[lunchbox_tragedy]

Hmmm. It would be nice if UMich were straight about this before getting applicants to pay for an expensive cross-country trip for interviews, go through the angst of waiting and acceptance, perhaps forgo other schools, just to find out they're being milked to subsidize the locals.

Seems likely that the most competitive OOS applicants who are presumably offered the greatest scholarship/grant money, are sufficiently competitive to go to even better schools than UMich.

Does anybody here know if out of all those many Billion$ for the new national health law, any scholarship/grant money is set aside to help med students?

As a highly ranked research institution, attending UM will likely poise you for a well paying career in the subspecialty of your choice, and you'll be able to pay off your loans in no time at all. If you want someone to pay for your school, prove yourself unique by applying to the NHSC for a scholarship or loan forgiveness and then dedicate a few years after residency to practicing primary care with the underserved - an area of medicine where more smart folks like yourself are actually needed. Otherwise, toughen up and pay up!

 

[SteinUmStein]

yeah, that sucks stein 🙁

did you hear back from them about need-based stuff? and any luck getting pitt to speed things up?

Things have been kind of rough the last few weeks... too many unpleasant surprises. Need-based aid from Mich was ok, but after e-mailing the financial aid office it looks like getting married next summer to a grad student making $27k/yr will do really bad things to my need-based package for M2, M3, and M4. I'm still trying to negotiate a merit scholarship, but if that doesn't work out it looks like I'm headed to either Northwestern or UChicago, both of which have offered much better need-based packages than UM. I think I'll be happy at any of the three, but Michigan was my dream school after interviewing, and I will definitely be disappointed when all is said and done if I end up anywhere but Ann Arbor.

In the end, an MD is an MD. The debt is just not acceptable to me... too many lost opportunities. 👎

 

[SteinUmStein]

As a highly ranked research institution, attending UM will likely poise you for a well paying career in the subspecialty of your choice, and you'll be able to pay off your loans in no time at all. If you want someone to pay for your school, prove yourself unique by applying to the NHSC for a scholarship or loan forgiveness and then dedicate a few years after residency to practicing primary care with the underserved - an area of medicine where more smart folks like yourself are actually needed. Otherwise, toughen up and pay up!

Many schools will get you into the fellowship of your choice. Your advice on primary care debt repayment is solid gold, though. 👍👍

 

[bobsmith]

Things have been kind of rough the last few weeks... too many unpleasant surprises. Need-based aid from Mich was ok, but after e-mailing the financial aid office it looks like getting married next summer to a grad student making $27k/yr will do really bad things to my need-based package for M2, M3, and M4. I'm still trying to negotiate a merit scholarship, but if that doesn't work out it looks like I'm headed to either Northwestern or UChicago, both of which have offered much better need-based packages than UM. I think I'll be happy at any of the three, but Michigan was my dream school after interviewing, and I will definitely be disappointed when all is said and done if I end up anywhere but Ann Arbor.

In the end, an MD is an MD. The debt is just not acceptable to me... too many lost opportunities. 👎

damn, that's unfortunate that the marriage matters so much for Michigan compared to Chicago and Northwestern.

it's a tough spot, man. and i know it's no consolation right now, but like most people, you probably will end up loving wherever it is you end up, so you can't really go wrong either way.

 

[SteinUmStein]

damn, that's unfortunate that the marriage matters so much for Michigan compared to Chicago and Northwestern.

it's a tough spot, man. and i know it's no consolation right now, but like most people, you probably will end up loving wherever it is you end up, so you can't really go wrong either way.

The difference is that both NWern and UChicago have guaranteed packages for 4 years, whereas UMich does theirs year-by-year based on EFC and CoA. It's all good, I probably won't get another chance to live in Chicago if I end up there. 😎

 

[Pacino2010]

So it's probably too early to start talking waitlist movement, but looking at some of the previous posts, it seems quite a few people are thinking about pursuing other options. i know they give stats on the previous year's waitlist, but what are the real chances for a kid on the upper tier waitlist and who's in-state. How many instate kids actually go elsewhere that they need to dip into that part of the waitlist?

 

[Dawgman]

😕 All the cost of attendance information is freely available on their website, so you could have looked into all of this before you applied.

Also if you look at your handouts from interview day, the OOS cost of attendance is pretty clearly listed there. It's not like they're hiding this information or making it difficult to find or lying about it.

And it's really not that you're paying to subsidize the in-state residents' tuition. The in-state residents (/their parents) pay taxes to the state, and the state gives funding to the medical school, which is why tuition is lower for in-state residents. This isn't unique to Michigan...

Perhaps I misspoke in my opening comment, and did not mean to give offense.

Yes, OOS tuition is clearly stated. However, the collective message from UMich seems mixed about various types of financial aid that an OOS student may get to offset high OOS tuition and so make UMich affordable. So, such OOS hopes for better and more competitive financial aid than may be forthcoming, and may be disappointed when it is not forthcoming.


I'm still wondering about the new national health bill, and whether of the hundreds of billions of dollars allocated, any grant or scholarship money is available to medical students. Any ideas on this?

 

[SteinUmStein]

Perhaps I misspoke in my opening comment, and did not mean to give offense.

Yes, OOS tuition is clearly stated. However, the collective message from UMich seems mixed about various types of financial aid that an OOS student may get to offset high OOS tuition and so make UMich affordable. So, such OOS hopes for better and more competitive financial aid than may be forthcoming, and may be disappointed when it is not forthcoming.


I'm still wondering about the new national health bill, and whether of the hundreds of billions of dollars allocated, any grant or scholarship money is available to medical students. Any ideas on this?

Not that I am aware of. There are new incentives for pursuing primary care following graduation, but nothing for your average med student.

 

[Dawgman]

Not that I am aware of. There are new incentives for pursuing primary care following graduation, but nothing for your average med student.

Hmmm. (and this would be a topic for another thread) Might be a good idea to write your Congressional representatives to urge funding for better grants and scholarships, perhaps expanding Pell to include med students. We have a doctor shortage right now, so how will the system hold up with millions of new patients aboard? In Canada, schools like McGill make sure med school is affordable for all students to finish without undue debt.

 

[SteinUmStein]

Hmmm. (and this would be a topic for another thread) Might be a good idea to write your Congressional representatives to urge funding for better grants and scholarships, perhaps expanding Pell to include med students. We have a doctor shortage right now, so how will the system hold up with millions of new patients aboard? In Canada, schools like McGill make sure med school is affordable for all students to finish without undue debt.

It'll be interesting to see where the breaking point is... as in, how much debt are students willing to take on before it deters them from the profession. $300,000? $400,000? These numbers look ridiculous to us now, but it's almost certain that if nothing changes, med student debt of $300,000 will be perfectly "normal" and students will still be willing to dig that hole. We're not far from that point.

 

[masturhu]

It'll be interesting to see where the breaking point is... as in, how much debt are students willing to take on before it deters them from the profession. $300,000? $400,000? These numbers look ridiculous to us now, but it's almost certain that if nothing changes, med student debt of $300,000 will be perfectly "normal" and students will still be willing to dig that hole. We're not far from that point.

This is the question of the century. How much investment does reputation matter? In PhD programs you are paid so you go to the most prestigious institution for the most part. MD you are doing the paying.

I feel like the middle class is will more likely the less prestigious institution based on money. Lower class gets a ton of aid. Upper class doesn't care about money. We should start a thread on this.

 

[SteinUmStein]

This is the question of the century. How much investment does reputation matter? In PhD programs you are paid so you go to the most prestigious institution for the most part. MD you are doing the paying.

I feel like the middle class is will more likely the less prestigious institution based on money. Lower class gets a ton of aid. Upper class doesn't care about money. We should start a thread on this.

There is an unfortunate gap between super-low EFC, where plenty of need-based aid is awarded, and super-high EFC, where either parents help with costs or students take out the loans knowing that if something goes wrong, mom and dad have their back. In between those extremes are students who receive very little need-based aid, but also have parents who aren't able to help in any way financially. I think in the future middle-class students will end up attending the cheapest school they can get into, just so they can keep from drowning in debt for the majority of their adult lives. As med school tuition tops $50k, $60k, $70k, a starting physician's life even 10 or 15 years from now will be much different. The job security will still be there, but not nearly as comfortable of a lifestyle. I can't see tuition doing anything but continuing to skyrocket, and I cannot imagine trying to convince taxpayers to subsidize the evil, greedy doctors' med school tuition. 🙄

 

[lunchbox_tragedy]

Hmmm. (and this would be a topic for another thread) Might be a good idea to write your Congressional representatives to urge funding for better grants and scholarships, perhaps expanding Pell to include med students. We have a doctor shortage right now, so how will the system hold up with millions of new patients aboard? In Canada, schools like McGill make sure med school is affordable for all students to finish without undue debt.

Guys, the median income for a family of 4 in the US is somewhere between $40-50k last time I checked, and even a PCP makes 3-4 times that. It's true that the cost of med school is outrageous, but so are the proportion of grads going into sub-specialties with outrageous salaries. The public and politicians will not (and really should not) make your educational debt a priority when the people leaving college now with bachelor's degrees don't have a job lined up like you. The only place we have a physician shortage is in primary care, so if you're gonna write your congress person please tell them to give more funding to the NHSC so that more than 1 out of 11 scholarship applicants can get their medical school payed for and can dedicate themselves to an area of medicine that will save money and help society in the long run.

 

[SteinUmStein]

Guys, the median income for a family of 4 in the US is somewhere between $40-50k last time I checked, and even a PCP makes 3-4 times that. It's true that the cost of med school is outrageous, but so are the proportion of grads going into sub-specialties with outrageous salaries. The public and politicians will not (and really should not) make your educational debt a priority when the people leaving college now with bachelor's degrees don't have a job lined up like you. The only place we have a physician shortage is in primary care, so if you're gonna write your congress person please tell them to give more funding to the NHSC so that more than 1 out of 11 scholarship applicants can get their medical school payed for and can dedicate themselves to an area of medicine that will save money and help society in the long run.

Excellent points, there will never be a broad government subsidy for med school tuition, Pell grant or otherwise. However, incentives for primary care continue to increase, including some from the new health bill. This does make sense, because the first physicians to have serious trouble paying back their debts will be PCPs, not specialists. Very few physicians default on their student debt in normal circumstances (i.e. no massive medical expenses).

If you want to see a career path in serious debt trouble, look at chiro... it's a mess right now:

Total chiropractic defaulters from HEAL program: 859
Total dental: 314
Total medical: 197

And keep in mind that there are many more medical students than dental or chiro students.

http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/loan.html

 

[Dawgman]

It'll be interesting to see where the breaking point is... as in, how much debt are students willing to take on before it deters them from the profession. $300,000? $400,000? These numbers look ridiculous to us now, but it's almost certain that if nothing changes, med student debt of $300,000 will be perfectly "normal" and students will still be willing to dig that hole. We're not far from that point.

Well, UMich seems pretty expensive, comparatively speaking, and some of us may still be trying to get a handle on bottom line net cost.

Discussed this with my family doc, starting with the $68K annual tuition, even if borrowed at cheap interest rates. He said absolutely not to graduate with $250-300K of debt: Much better to go to a less expensive school and avoid as much as possible of the debt, which will be there with the interest meter running whether you make big doctor bucks, or not. Then, there are the lean years after med school, cost of moves perhaps to high cost areas, etc.. Somewhere in there most will marry and start families, which rumor says is not a cheap hobby.

 

[SteinUmStein]

Well, UMich seems pretty expensive, comparatively speaking, and some of us may still be trying to get a handle on bottom line net cost.

Discussed this with my family doc, starting with the $68K annual tuition, even if borrowed at cheap interest rates. He said absolutely not to graduate with $250-300K of debt: Much better to go to a less expensive school and avoid as much as possible of the debt, which will be there with the interest meter running whether you make big doctor bucks, or not. Then, there are the lean years after med school, cost of moves perhaps to high cost areas, etc.. Somewhere in there most will marry and start families, which rumor says is not a cheap hobby.

It's all about what you want to do with your life. If you're not interested in derm or other similar highly competitive residencies, and you're not particularly interested in academic medicine, literally any medical school will get you where you want to be. You don't need an expensive, high-tier school to match into a great peds or internal medicine program. People match into surgery and anesthesiology from no-name state schools every year as well.

 

[ApoK]

I just found from a friend that UM holds spots for students who've been offered scholarships. My friend just signed up for revisit a couple days ago, whereas a ton of us are still on the "wait list." Come on UM, let's continue to be even MORE douchey. It makes sense from a recruitment point of view, but that doesn't make it any less of a d-bag thing to do. The less cost-effective -- but far fairer -- approach would be to increase the number of spots for revisit weekend.

Just an FYI for those who were wondering earlier.

 

[womp]

Guys, the median income for a family of 4 in the US is somewhere between $40-50k last time I checked, and even a PCP makes 3-4 times that.

Misleading statistics. The tax burden on a family of 4 making 50k is essentially 0%-8% after all the exemptions and deductions. In other words, they get to see nearly the entirety of their gross income. Whereas the same family with $150k will see just about $100k of it at best. So the advantage is only about 2x.

Secondly, that $50k family will also receive plenty of other need-based assistance from daycare to college tuition. So the 2x advantage of the $150k family now becomes even smaller with having to save for college for two and a decade of delayed earnings and investment.

You can't compare someone who forgoes 8 years of earnings for higher education (let's not even talk about the debt) plus another 3-7 years of 80 hr work weeks in residency with the average someone who has a high school diploma and has been working since 18.

To give a more fair comparison, a pharmacist at CVS makes more per hour ($55/hr) than the vast majority of PCPs. He has lower debt burden, does not have to go to residency and often did not even need to finish his bachelors degree.

 

[BubbaChuck3]

There seems to be alot of UMich bashing. We get it. You don't like the school. That is fine and you are entitled to your own opinion but don't you guys think that effort would be better spent posting on the thread of the school that you are enamored with.

APOK: UMich does not hold second look spots for people that have been offered scholarships. All this hearsay doesn't really help anyone. Your friend was probably high on the waitlist and got offered a second look because people started to drop Mich. If they could have attend the second look they would. But there are limited resources in term of student housing and volunteers to make the second look function as it should if an extra 100 people showed up. If I were you I would be patient as I'm sure if you really want to attend the second look you will be able to. Also if you feel so strongly about attending the second look I'm sure this is nothing a nice professional email to the admin office can't handle.

 

[ApoK]

There seems to be alot of UMich bashing. We get it. You don't like the school. That is fine and you are entitled to your own opinion but don't you guys think that effort would be better spent posting on the thread of the school that you are enamored with.

APOK: UMich does not hold second look spots for people that have been offered scholarships. All this hearsay doesn't really help anyone. Your friend was probably high on the waitlist and got offered a second look because people started to drop Mich. If they could have attend the second look they would. But there are limited resources in term of student housing and volunteers to make the second look function as it should if an extra 100 people showed up. If I were you I would be patient as I'm sure if you really want to attend the second look you will be able to. Also if you feel so strongly about attending the second look I'm sure this is nothing a nice professional email to the admin office can't handle.

yes, they do. It's not hearsay. What u are saying is hearsay based off your perception of the school. My friend was not placed on the waitlists. Period. He wasn't interested in UM at all but he received a substanial scholarship that persuaded him to attend. I have no skin in this game because I'm not even on the waitlist because I can't attend that weekend.

 

[BubbaChuck3]

yes, they do. It's not hearsay. What u are saying is hearsay based off your perception of the school. My friend was not placed on the waitlists. Period. He wasn't interested in UM at all but he received a substanial scholarship that persuaded him to attend. I have no skin in this game because I'm not even on the waitlist because I can't attend that weekend.

Well I guess we are both wrong because I have a friend with a significant scholarship that can't attend the weekend yet. His spot was clearly not reserved.

 

[whiskers109]

I am almost certain they don't hold second look spots for scholarship recipients. I got the invite the very first day they sent 'em out and I was able to register without any trouble... and I am not getting any scholarship from UM.. I am sure it's all coincidence and chance.

 

[ApoK]

I am almost certain they don't hold second look spots for scholarship recipients. I got the invite the very first day they sent 'em out and I was able to register without any trouble... and I am not getting any scholarship from UM.. I am sure it's all coincidence and chance.

I didn't mean to imply only scholarship recipients could go. I guess maybe it's only for people with full rides.

 

[lunchbox_tragedy]

Misleading statistics. The tax burden on a family of 4 making 50k is essentially 0%-8% after all the exemptions and deductions. In other words, they get to see nearly the entirety of their gross income. Whereas the same family with $150k will see just about $100k of it at best. So the advantage is only about 2x.

Secondly, that $50k family will also receive plenty of other need-based assistance from daycare to college tuition. So the 2x advantage of the $150k family now becomes even smaller with having to save for college for two and a decade of delayed earnings and investment.

You can't compare someone who forgoes 8 years of earnings for higher education (let's not even talk about the debt) plus another 3-7 years of 80 hr work weeks in residency with the average someone who has a high school diploma and has been working since 18.

To give a more fair comparison, a pharmacist at CVS makes more per hour ($55/hr) than the vast majority of PCPs. He has lower debt burden, does not have to go to residency and often did not even need to finish his bachelors degree.

We should also probably stop comparing that family of four (with presumably two income earners) making $40-50k to a single physician pulling in, according to you, at least twice that amount. If the physician marries, they're highly likely to become enamored with another professional or doctor, making (with a conservative estimate) at least $80k, putting those two income earners combined over $200k. The purchasing power and ability to pay off debt remain at 3-4x that of the median American couple.

I don't know where you think all this miraculous aid for that middle-class family is coming from -- assistance for daycare? Are you sure? As far as college expenses, they may have more grants and stafford loans, but putting their children through college will bump those kids up to a whole other income bracket. The main forms of credit debt for the parents, who probably don't both hold 4 year degrees, are likely credit card debt and a (possibly defaulted) mortgage. Your college loans are a much friendlier form of debt to hold than either of those.

I agree that you can't compare a physician to someone working with a HS diploma since the age of 18, since that person with only a diploma is probably working for less than a living wage, and any income they earn over the doctor in the decade the doctor is in school will probably be negated in at most 5 years following the doctor entering practice.

And ya, we all know that the pharmacists, PAs, accountants, etc, make comparable incomes much sooner, but if you're like me you heard that many times before applying for medical school and you have no one to blame for making that choice but yourself. After all, in the end you'll be the M.D., and the status that comes with those letters requires an ever increasing monetary and labor investment!

 

[lunchbox_tragedy]

I am sure it's all coincidence and chance.

Er...as a matter of fact those initial invites were not coincidence or chance...as implied by their twitter post shortly afterwards and as confirmed by someone I know who has a contact in the admissions office, they prioritized who would receive second look invites based on who they wanted most to attend. Them trying to woo scholarship recipients with invites now really doesn't sound that that improbable to me. And oh man, don't even get me started on how douchey they treat deferred people...

 

[womp]

We should also probably stop comparing that family of four (with presumably two income earners) making $40-50k to a single physician pulling in, according to you, at least twice that amount. If the physician marries, they're highly likely to become enamored with another professional or doctor, making (with a conservative estimate) at least $80k, putting those two income earners combined over $200k. The purchasing power and ability to pay off debt remain at 3-4x that of the median American couple.

Two doctors mean two $180k debts, 20 years of opportunity costs, and an even higher tax bracket. And if the mother works part-time when the kids are young, they're even worse off.

And your statistics are old. The median American family of four with two married earners (at least one full-time) made around $90k in 2007, not the $40-$50k number you keep repeating.

https://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0684.xls

Almost every professional income in the US has risen significantly in real terms over the last decade, except physicians (barring a few specialties like radiology). To use the pharmacist example, retail pharmacists made $50-$60k just ten years ago, now they make $100-120k.

 

[BubbaChuck3]

Er...as a matter of fact those initial invites were not coincidence or chance...as implied by their twitter post shortly afterwards and as confirmed by someone I know who has a contact in the admissions office, they prioritized who would receive second look invites based on who they wanted most to attend. Them trying to woo scholarship recipients with invites now really doesn't sound that that improbable to me. And oh man, don't even get me started on how douchey they treat deferred people...

Medschools try to build a class. How can they ensure they do that without giving out scholarships and doing things like have preference for second looks. Resources are limited. What do you suggest? Half the people they accepted will ultimately not attend U Mich. If they could have all 350 of us there they would. Not a lot of other schools have that problem. Lastly, every single school puts people on a wait-list so how is it douchey? Please explain to me how it should be done. I would love to hear. I guess it is douchey that they actually have the audacity to give some people invites and others not. There will obviously be people that are preferred over others.

Two doctors mean two $180k debts, 20 years of opportunity costs, and an even higher tax bracket. And if the mother works part-time when the kids are young, they're even worse off.

And your statistics are old. The median American family of four with two married earners (at least one full-time) made around $90k in 2007, not the $40-$50k number you keep harping.

https://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0684.xls

Almost every professional income in the US has risen significantly in real terms over the last decade, except physicians (barring a few specialties like radiology). To use the pharmacist example, retail pharmacists made $50-$60k just ten years ago, now they make $100-120k.

No one stopped you from being a pharmacist... I am sorry for being such a sour grape. I know it is a serious concern of compensation for physicians, especially doctors. But lets all be serious here. You will not be hurting for money. Also if you are so passionate about it and think it is unfair. You are not forced to do this. And like I always tell people. If you really want to be a doctor for the money there are much much much easier ways to make money.

Before I get berated about this post I do understand that the increase in medical education is not sustainable and something ultimately needs to be done about it.There are several publications in NEJM alone about it. But the amount of debt that we personally will be expected to pay back might hurt the pocket a little bit. But in the long run I think we'll be ok.

 

[whiskers109]

Can people please share how much they're getting in grants/scholarships??

They gave me $7400.. not as much as I had hoped. Maybe it's bcos I filed a 2009 tax return ( I have been working full time for two years)... But that's not enough to the much extra out of state tuition they charge.. I wont be working anymore once school starts and my financial aid will probably go up for the 2011-2012 school year, but I just don't know how much....

I mean, I loved Umich when I visited for an interview.. but not sure if that much money is worth is to get a degree from a brand name school.. What do you guys think????

 

[womp]

No one stopped you from being a pharmacist... I am sorry for being such a sour grape. I know it is a serious concern of compensation for physicians, especially doctors. But lets all be serious here. You will not be hurting for money. Also if you are so passionate about it and think it is unfair. You are not forced to do this. And like I always tell people. If you really want to be a doctor for the money there are much much much easier ways to make money.

What a cop out of a response. Are you suggesting that anyone who chooses a profession has no further say in their future? They've just got to man up to any developments? It's that kind of thinking that ruins it for everyone else. Law schools expanded exponentially without a care for the future of the profession. Hey, nobody forced anyone to become lawyers, right? 🙄 And no, you don't honestly believe physician compensation and debt burdens are a serious concern. Otherwise, your first sentence wouldn't be to rudely tell someone to pick a different career.

And high educational debt does matter for the very objective fact that your costs today are real, but your future compensation is still in the air. Just look at the number of unemployed lawyers today (yes, even from T14 schools) saddled with $150k debt who were so certain they would find a 6-figure salary upon graduation.

I'm going to leave this thread to U-M topics.

 

[BubbaChuck3]

What a cop out of a response. Are you suggesting that anyone who chooses a profession has no further say in their future? They've just got to man up to any developments? It's that kind of thinking that ruins it for everyone else. Law schools expanded exponentially without a care for the future of the profession. Hey, nobody forced anyone to become lawyers, right? 🙄 And no, you don't honestly believe physician compensation and debt burdens are a serious concern. Otherwise, your first sentence wouldn't be to rudely tell someone to pick a different career.

And high educational debt does matter for the very objective fact that your costs today are real, but your future compensation is still in the air. Just look at the number of unemployed lawyers today (yes, even from T14 schools) saddled with $150k debt who were so certain they would find a 6-figure salary upon graduation.

I'm going to leave this thread to U-M topics.

The fact that you are even equating the two shows your ignorance of the topic. (now that was a cop out answer). I would elaborate but I think your last sentence said it best. Please feel free to PM me if you want to continue.

 

[ApoK]

Can people please share how much they're getting in grants/scholarships??

They gave me $7400.. not as much as I had hoped. Maybe it's bcos I filed a 2009 tax return ( I have been working full time for two years)... But that's not enough to the much extra out of state tuition they charge.. I wont be working anymore once school starts and my financial aid will probably go up for the 2011-2012 school year, but I just don't know how much....

I mean, I loved Umich when I visited for an interview.. but not sure if that much money is worth is to get a degree from a brand name school.. What do you guys think????

Depends on how much of a gap there is between UM and the other school you're considering. If it's any more than 50k, go to the other school. UM isn't as "elite" an institution as they make themselves out to be. They promote themselves as an having an "east coast reputation with a midwestern feel." However, they actually have "a midwestern reputation with an east coast mentality." I got that quote from a resident at UM who went to HMS. I find it pretty fitting.

Medschools try to build a class. How can they ensure they do that without giving out scholarships and doing things like have preference for second looks. Resources are limited. What do you suggest? Half the people they accepted will ultimately not attend U Mich. If they could have all 350 of us there they would. Not a lot of other schools have that problem. Lastly, every single school puts people on a wait-list so how is it douchey? Please explain to me how it should be done. I would love to hear. I guess it is douchey that they actually have the audacity to give some people invites and others not. There will obviously be people that are preferred over others.

Uh, it's not that difficult. They could try to be like any other top school and allow everyone to sign up for second look. Additionally, they could try to give everyone the SAME OPPORTUNITY TO SIGN UP. Many students got e-mails 4-5 days after others, which locked them out of any chance at a revisit spot.

Also, if my state school can afford to invite everyone, then so can Michigan. Ever see a school like HMS, Penn, Yale, Stanford, UCSF, Duke or Hopkins tell any of their accepted students they can't meet their future classmates? UM isn't treating its students fairly. I dislike the notion of a school saying they are so friendly to everyone during interview day, but then give out such biased treatment. But, hey, UM has to look out for itself, which apparently means luring ivy students to their school at all costs.

And, I don't mean to completely denigrate UM. It's a great school. I'm just saying they're using some fairly devious tactics, which isn't exactly congruent with the image they try to project. Clearly, you love UM BubbaChuck and that's great. However, there is nothing wrong with some constructive criticism. I know UM reads these posts. Maybe they'll read them and consider changing their douchey behavior in the future.

 

[JasonE]

Also, if my state school can afford to invite everyone, then so can Michigan. Ever see a school like HMS, Penn, Yale, Stanford, UCSF, Duke or Hopkins tell any of their accepted students they can't meet their future classmates? UM isn't treating its students fairly. I dislike the notion of a school saying they are so friendly to everyone during interview day, but then give out such biased treatment. But, hey, UM has to look out for itself, which apparently means luring ivy students to their school at all costs.

UM also accepts 400+ students, whereas HMS, Penn, Yale, stanford, ucsf, and duke do not. not even close.

 

[ApoK]

UM also accepts 400+ students, whereas HMS, Penn, Yale, stanford, ucsf, and duke do not. not even close.

lol, but so what? The above schools all invite about 200+ students, but you can only expect about 50-60% will actually attend. Also, what about a school like Northwestern? They're similar to UM in terms of reputation, class size, and # of acceptances but they don't have any restrictions on who can attend, as far as I know. I mean, my state school accepts 400+ and they don't have a limit on who can attend second look.

 

[JasonE]

lol, but so what? The above schools all invite about 200+ students, but you can only expect about 50-60% will actually attend. Also, what about a school like Northwestern? They're similar to UM in terms of reputation, class size, and # of acceptances but they don't have any restrictions on who can attend, as far as I know. I mean, my state school accepts 400+ and they don't have a limit on who can attend second look.

i understand what you're saying, but i'd imagine its not easy to cater events to 400+ people. theres a huge difference between 200 and 400.

if they could bring everyone in, im sure they would.

 

[ApoK]

i understand what you're saying, but i'd imagine its not easy to cater events to 400+ people. if they could do it, im sure they would.

They could do it, but it would be more expensive. They'd rather not deal with the expense, or maybe UM is super affected by the financial crisis. lol, maybe they went long on bear stearns?

Also, 400+ people wouldn't show up to revisit at Michigan. That would be unbelievable if all accepted students came. They're looking at hosting ~200, but probably want to keep it to about 100 or so, as a maximum.

 

[ApoK]

Actually, now that I've brought up Northwestern, I have to point out how much better their recruiting practices are with regard to revisit. They allow any and all accepted students to attend. Additionally, they will pay for your flight out there if you can't afford it. I know several people who received a free flight to come check them out. I think that's an outstanding approach. And, it's not like Northwestern has way more money than UM or anything...

 

[JasonE]

They could do it, but it would be more expensive. They'd rather not deal with the expense, or maybe UM is super affected by the financial crisis. lol, maybe they went long on bear stearns?

Also, 400+ people wouldn't show up to revisit at Michigan. That would be unbelievable if all accepted students came. They're looking at hosting ~200, but probably want to keep it to about 100 or so, as a maximum.

you don't know their reasons. while it may be financial, it might not. and UM also pays for flights as well, even for interviews in some cases.

im not trying to defend or justify any decisions/practices. im just saying you're really quick to jump to conclusions.

 

[ApoK]

you don't know their reasons. while it may be financial, it might not.

Actually, I doubt its financial. Personally, I think its because Michigan is trying to influence who chooses to go there. Scaling up 100 people would mean having a larger auditorium and more food with potentially limited student hosting. The food and auditorium things are not a big deal at all. Also, the housing thing could be fixed by setting up a waitlist for student hosting. That way, people who want to attend the events would be allowed to, even if they aren't hosted.

Haha, second class accepted student anyone?

 

[JasonE]

Actually, I doubt its financial. Personally, I think its because Michigan is trying to influence who chooses to go there. Scaling up 100 people would mean having a larger auditorium and more food with potentially limited student hosting. The food and auditorium things are not a big deal at all. Also, the housing thing could be fixed by setting up a waitlist for student hosting. That way, people who want to attend the events would be allowed to, even if they aren't hosted.

Haha, second class accepted student anyone?

i wouldnt look at it as being second class. they're trying to build a diverse class which can impact what students they would like to select. just because someone gets a scholarship or second-look preference doesnt make them better/smarter/more capable than you. same logic applies to acceptances as well. i dont think everyone that got into harvard is smarter/better/more capable than all the other applicants. they chose who they chose for their reasons and thats that

 

[ApoK]

im not trying to defend or justify any decisions/practices. im just saying you're really quick to jump to conclusions.

No, I understand what you're saying. However, it seems fairly obvious what is going on in this situation. It's implicit in their actions, and they can directly respond to these criticisms (and often do) through their twitter. I'd be interested to have them disclose why they set a limit on revisit spots.

I'd be relieved if they admit it's because they don't have enough money to do so. Then, there would be some rationality behind the decision. However, how are you going to attract kids away from rich, private institutions if you basically admit you can't afford to provide more food and a larger auditorium for one weekend ? Hmm, they might have trouble convincing someone that they're as good as UCSF or even UChicago, if money is that tight.

 

[JasonE]

No, I understand what you're saying. However, it seems fairly obvious what is going on in this situation. It's implicit in their actions, and they can directly respond to these criticisms (and often do) through their twitter. I'd be interested to have them disclose why they set a limit on revisit spots.

I'd be relieved if they admit it's because they don't have enough money to do so. Then, there would be some rationality behind the decision. However, how are you going to attract kids away from rich, private institutions if you basically admit you can't afford to provide more food and a larger auditorium for one weekend ? Hmm, they might have trouble convincing someone that they're as good as UCSF or even UChicago, if money is that tight.

i dont think they (or any other school) needs to prove they are as good or better than any other school. this process is about fit (we've heard that over and over), but its 100% true.

 

[ApoK]

i wouldnt look at it as being second class. they're trying to build a diverse class which can impact what students they would like to select. just because someone gets a scholarship or second-look preference doesnt make them better/smarter/more capable than you. same logic applies to acceptances as well. i dont think everyone that got into harvard is smarter/better/more capable than all the other applicants. they chose who they chose for their reasons and thats that

Yeah, no, that's completely fine. I guess I would just prefer if they were upfront about doing exactly what you just described above, which is they're trying to influence the composition of their class after accepting students. That is rather unique, although perhaps not if they're only trying to pursue the most well-qualified candidates (i.e. if it's based on perceived merit). Most schools do that.

 

[ApoK]

i dont think they (or any other school) needs to prove they are as good or better than any other school. this process is about fit (we've heard that over and over), but its 100% true.

Haha, now this is where you lose me. UM explictly states they give scholarships based off of what other schools you've been accepted to, which they can see beginning March 15th. They also said they consider your undergraduate institution when making scholarship decisions. That sounds more like they care about prestige than "fit." Unless fit=prestige, which actually is probably the case more often than naught.

 

[JasonE]

Haha, now this is where you lose me. UM explictly states they give scholarships based off of what other schools you've been accepted to, which they can see beginning March 15th. They also said they consider your undergraduate institution when making scholarship decisions. That sounds more like they care about prestige than "fit." Unless fit=prestige, which actually is probably the case more often than naught.

i gave my opinion, which may not be their opinion, which is why i said "i think". sry for the confusion

 

[medat101]

lol, but so what? The above schools all invite about 200+ students, but you can only expect about 50-60% will actually attend. Also, what about a school like Northwestern? They're similar to UM in terms of reputation, class size, and # of acceptances but they don't have any restrictions on who can attend, as far as I know. I mean, my state school accepts 400+ and they don't have a limit on who can attend second look.

I think the only solution would be to host two second look weekends and give everyone the opportunity to attend. Yes, this would cost a TON, but if you shorten the "weekend" to a day and a half and maybe cut back on some freebies, then its entirely feasible.

 

[BubbaChuck3]

Depends on how much of a gap there is between UM and the other school you're considering. If it's any more than 50k, go to the other school. UM isn't as "elite" an institution as they make themselves out to be. They promote themselves as an having an "east coast reputation with a midwestern feel." However, they actually have "a midwestern reputation with an east coast mentality." I got that quote from a resident at UM who went to HMS. I find it pretty fitting.

How do they make themselves out to be exactly? I think they are honest of who they are and who they aren't. They are a top 10 institution that actually has much more respect country wide than their ranking. They are a top 10 funded medical school and have consistently been in the top 10 in funding and resources for quite some time now. They are not Harvard or Hopkins and they never pretended to be. I do like U Mich but I am trying to be as objective here as possible. You just seem to love to disparage them.

Uh, it's not that difficult. They could try to be like any other top school and allow everyone to sign up for second look. Additionally, they could try to give everyone the SAME OPPORTUNITY TO SIGN UP. Many students got e-mails 4-5 days after others, which locked them out of any chance at a revisit spot.

Also, if my state school can afford to invite everyone, then so can Michigan. Ever see a school like HMS, Penn, Yale, Stanford, UCSF, Duke or Hopkins tell any of their accepted students they can't meet their future classmates? UM isn't treating its students fairly. I dislike the notion of a school saying they are so friendly to everyone during interview day, but then give out such biased treatment. But, hey, UM has to look out for itself, which apparently means luring ivy students to their school at all costs.

And, I don't mean to completely denigrate UM. It's a great school. I'm just saying they're using some fairly devious tactics, which isn't exactly congruent with the image they try to project. Clearly, you love UM BubbaChuck and that's great. However, there is nothing wrong with some constructive criticism. I know UM reads these posts. Maybe they'll read them and consider changing their douchey behavior in the future.

They are not trying to recruit people who came from ivy schools. They are trying to build a diverse class. Do you see that diversity page on their website when they outline the class profile at length. They are very proud of that and there is one way to ensure that the class looks like that. That means heavy recruitment of certain individuals.

lol, but so what? The above schools all invite about 200+ students, but you can only expect about 50-60% will actually attend. Also, what about a school like Northwestern? They're similar to UM in terms of reputation, class size, and # of acceptances but they don't have any restrictions on who can attend, as far as I know. I mean, my state school accepts 400+ and they don't have a limit on who can attend second look.

I touched on this a little bit above. But rest assured NW and U Mich do not have similar reputation. And I say this as objectively as I can. NW is a great great great school and is renowned for many things but it is not in the same stratosphere in terms of medicine. This is something that you can find out for yourself by asking attendings at your closest hospital. I know that I will get rebuked for this comment...oh well

They could do it, but it would be more expensive. They'd rather not deal with the expense, or maybe UM is super affected by the financial crisis. lol, maybe they went long on bear stearns?

Also, 400+ people wouldn't show up to revisit at Michigan. That would be unbelievable if all accepted students came. They're looking at hosting ~200, but probably want to keep it to about 100 or so, as a maximum.

It has nothing to do with it being more money. It is the quality of the second look. After a certain amount of people it doesn't have the same feel. It is not as intimate it is harder to garner the same excitement. Everyone that wants to go to the hospital Saturday morning won't be able to and countless other things. It is about quality of the second look that they are trying to preserve. It is just common sense man. C'mon now.

Actually, now that I've brought up Northwestern, I have to point out how much better their recruiting practices are with regard to revisit. They allow any and all accepted students to attend. Additionally, they will pay for your flight out there if you can't afford it. I know several people who received a free flight to come check them out. I think that's an outstanding approach. And, it's not like Northwestern has way more money than UM or anything...

I got a free flight....

Actually, I doubt its financial. Personally, I think its because Michigan is trying to influence who chooses to go there. Scaling up 100 people would mean having a larger auditorium and more food with potentially limited student hosting. The food and auditorium things are not a big deal at all. Also, the housing thing could be fixed by setting up a waitlist for student hosting. That way, people who want to attend the events would be allowed to, even if they aren't hosted.

Haha, second class accepted student anyone?

I think I answered this already. It is not about the housing. It is about the quality.

No, I understand what you're saying. However, it seems fairly obvious what is going on in this situation. It's implicit in their actions, and they can directly respond to these criticisms (and often do) through their twitter. I'd be interested to have them disclose why they set a limit on revisit spots.

I'd be relieved if they admit it's because they don't have enough money to do so. Then, there would be some rationality behind the decision. However, how are you going to attract kids away from rich, private institutions if you basically admit you can't afford to provide more food and a larger auditorium for one weekend ? Hmm, they might have trouble convincing someone that they're as good as UCSF or even UChicago, if money is that tight.

Yeah it is obvious what is going on in this situation. U Mich is trying to have a diverse class and they show preference to some because of that. It is a very common practice actually.

Yeah, no, that's completely fine. I guess I would just prefer if they were upfront about doing exactly what you just described above, which is they're trying to influence the composition of their class after accepting students. That is rather unique, although perhaps not if they're only trying to pursue the most well-qualified candidates (i.e. if it's based on perceived merit). Most schools do that.

This is not unique at all. Schools don't just accept people and then just cross their fingers that their class turns out like it does. Go to the Yale thread. Some people got several recruitment calls while others did not. Why do you think that happened? Similar things happen at UPenn. The people with the highest gpa don't get full tuition. I have a buddy there with close to a full ride and he was not the most spectacular numerically. Every school in their own ways shows a level of favoritism to build as diverse of a class as possible. Just because you are not privy to this information doesn't mean it happens.

Lastly, it is pretty clear you have no interest in U Mich. Penn is a fabulous place and a great city. I live there. You will have a great time. I am just curious why you feel the need to denigrate U Mich constantly. I am all about constructive criticism but there is a way of going about that. And some of your comments have been pretty inflammatory. Or at least I thought so. Wouldn't your time be better spent talking up your future school?