2011-2012 University of Texas - San Antonio Application Thread

[Status Sciaticus]

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That's cause those details are not entirely finalized yet.

i really hope they make the preclinicals P/F. I also sent an update last friday. lets hope I get an II from here.

 

[alienwares]

Does anyone know what sort of opportunities UT-SA has for those who want to learn (medical, at least) Spanish?

I found a medical Spanish elective on the school website, but it's a bare-bones 10-week class. Given the demographics of the city (and Texas in general) I am very interested in learning how to communicate in the language. A few other schools seem to have preclinical opportunities (free clinics, for example) with primarily Spanish-speaking populations and I am guessing UTSA is no different, but I would like to hear it from anyone who is a student or interviewed here already. Thank you!

 

[BoDiddly]

Does anyone know what sort of opportunities UT-SA has for those who want to learn (medical, at least) Spanish?

I found a medical Spanish elective on the school website, but it's a bare-bones 10-week class. Given the demographics of the city (and Texas in general) I am very interested in learning how to communicate in the language. A few other schools seem to have preclinical opportunities (free clinics, for example) with primarily Spanish-speaking populations and I am guessing UTSA is no different, but I would like to hear it from anyone who is a student or interviewed here already. Thank you!

UTHSCSA also offers beginning, intermediate, and advanced Spanish electives in addition to the medical Spanish elective.

 

[sector9]

I was thinking of sending an update letter this week (pre-interview invite) but I'm not so sure now that they're on probation... hmm

 

[therunner12]

So they are basically saying that their curriculum was outdated?

If they pass the USMLE, why does it matter?

 

[nmed20]

I was thinking of sending an update letter this week (pre-interview invite) but I'm not so sure now that they're on probation... hmm

You mean UTHSCSA is on probation? Where did you hear/read that?

 

[therunner12]

You mean UTHSCSA is on probation? Where did you hear/read that?

Go to the main pre-allopathic board.

 

[MilkIsGood]

http://www.texastribune.org/texas-e...ut-school-medicine-san-antonio-put-probation/

 

[CodeBlu]

http://www.texastribune.org/texas-e...ut-school-medicine-san-antonio-put-probation/


for the record....

undergraduate medical education = MD degree

graduate medical education = Residency training programs

 

[oldfogey1982]

Their new curriculum presented during the interview day seemed to address the concerns presented by the LCME. I am fairly confident that this will not be an issue, seeing as how the 2012 class will be on the new curriculum.

On another topic, have any of you other OOS students that interviewed heard anything? October 17th, and the hours are torturing me.

 

[cyanide12345678]

I just got this email from UT SA. What does probation status for the school mean for incoming students?



We write today to tell you about a decision by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) to continue accreditation for the School of Medicine’s undergraduate medical education program, but to place it on probationary status effective October 14, 2011. The LCME is recognized as the accrediting authority for programs leading to M.D. degrees in the United States and Canada, jointly administered by the American Medical Association and the American Association of Medical Colleges, and visited our school last January as part of the routine accreditation process.



The LCME found 10 (of 126 standards) deficiencies in our program which can be summarized into three principal problems:

There is a perceived lack of alignment between the basic sciences and the medical school, without a direct reporting line to medical school leadership.
Our program lacks centralized management of the curriculum (such as clerkship evaluations and curriculum inventory).
The basic science curriculum to date has emphasized passive learning over more active learning promoting self-learning and problem solving. Our new curriculum was not sufficiently developed at the time of the 2011 site visit in order to achieve full compliance.


As shown in the accompanying slides which are now part of the presentation on interview days, some of these problems have already been partially or even fully addressed. Specifically, as of September 1st, the basic science faculty and chairs report to the SOM Dean; integration of operations is ongoing. Plans are also under way for the establishment of an enhanced Office of Medical Education, with additional personnel and dedicated space on the 5th floor of the Briscoe Library. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, the curriculum committee is proceeding with plans for a new curriculum to begin with the next incoming class, in the summer 2012. A special task force composed of members of the faculty and dean’s office will be appointed to oversee these initiatives. You may recall this was presented to you on your interview day



While we cannot predict how long our probationary status will last, we are well under way towards full compliance with LCME standards. Although we would have preferred to work on the constructive issues outlined by the LCME without any sanctions, we are confident that these challenges are imminently remediable and that we will emerge a better and stronger educational institution.



Should you have any questions please direct them to Dr. Jones ([email protected]).



Sincerely,



Francisco González-Scarano, M.D.



C. Nanette Clare, M.D.



David J. Jones, Ph.D.

 

[Techmed07]

...oh no.

 

[oldfogey1982]

Nothing yet. They are still accredited, so it will only affect students if the school does not fix the deficiencies within the time limit set by the LCME.

 

[Bojack Horseman]

certainly not the type of thing you want to hear as a prospective student though...

 

[Morzh]

Alright current UTHSCSA med students... sooth my soul and tell me again how awesome this school is...🙂

Sounds like the school was just too traditional and slow to change its curriculum from lecture-based to PBL/Otherstuff-based.

What are the chances of this affecting how residency directors view UTHSCSA students?

 

[cyanide12345678]

But concurrently you have teh LCME taking away the accredition of this other school (i forgot the school name). I mean 3rd and 4th year students from that school got REALLY screwed. Probation status is kind of an unsettling thing :S

 

[oldfogey1982]

Make a good impression during clerkships, you never know. By the time 2016 rolls around, I doubt it will matter since the school is already changing the curriculum for 2012 students.

 

[cyanide12345678]

certainly not the type of thing you want to hear as a prospective student though...

Probably that means they will be increasing the number of acceptances they send out then 😛 Which kinda works out well for all of us 😀 I believe everyone who has applied to the school got the email (or maybe everyone who has interviewed?) Who else has received the email?

 

[oldfogey1982]

Got it a few minutes ago, interviewed in August.

 

[Morzh]

I got it too. The phrase "You may recall this was presented to you on your interview day" in the emails suggests they only sent it to those who interviewed already, and will address the issue during future interviews.

 

[nmed20]

Yeah, I didn't get that email today.. so I guess it only went to people who are invited to/attended an interview.

Looks like they were already working on the issues before being put on probation, though.

 

[oldfogey1982]

Bureaucracy never occurs quickly. The decision was based on a visit last January.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Is there a way to look at LCME's report directly? There is one thing that is bothering me. LCME has identified 10 areas where the school does not meet standards. But, the three things mentioned in the email are VERY specific. So, I fail to understand how 10 different areas can be narrowed down into 3 very specific things. I understand that the email says that the ten things fall into 3 categories, but the fact that the 3 categories mentioned are so specific that it makes me wonder how 10 things can possibly fit into those. Anyone else feel that way?

 

[Missorleans]

Got this email too. As an OOS applicant who already interviewed here, was really hoping it was my first acceptance. No such luck.

 

[kittenmittens7]

Got this email too. As an OOS applicant who already interviewed here, was really hoping it was my first acceptance. No such luck.

SAME!!! ahh i interviewed oos in the middle of august and want to hear back so badly. i loved the school and loved texas.

i wonder what the probationary status means really, though...it has me (and most likely other prospective students) worried.

 

[Status Sciaticus]

Got this email too. As an OOS applicant who already interviewed here, was really hoping it was my first acceptance. No such luck.

SAME!!! ahh i interviewed oos in the middle of august and want to hear back so badly. i loved the school and loved texas.

i wonder what the probationary status means really, though...it has me (and most likely other prospective students) worried.

dont worry. they take students upto may i believe lol.

and i wouldnt worry about the probationary status. thats just the LCME's way of playing hardball. especially with the SGU situation, using probation is a sure way to get what they want.

 

[BuffNerd]

Got this email too. As an OOS applicant who already interviewed here, was really hoping it was my first acceptance. No such luck.

+1...I couldn't believe it....I was so excited when I saw the email 🙂D), but then I read it 🙂confused🙂.

 

[DrSynthesizer]

Hey perspective students/ applicants etc, there was a lot of discussion about the LCME findings, and I first off wanted to appease you all by letting you know that it is definitely not anything to worry about. I am a first year and heard the explanation from the dean of the med school who explained that 2 of the 3 main concerns were strictly administration issues that were quick fixes. For example: they needed to streamline all of the faculty's administrative and billing divisions so that one person would over see all of those together (this person has already been appointed now and steps have already been taken to ensure that all regulations are met).

The second issue was a matter of centralizing all of the offices/ med school departments in one location, so in the future, instead of having to go across campus to get to the Office of Academic Enhancement, we will simply go to the new office being built on the fifth floor of the library. And finally, the issues with the curriculum... If you have already interviewed here, you know that there was already a new integrated curriculum ready to go for the next class (2016).
The third issue was that the curriculum was outdated and that there was too much passive time spent in lectures. The new curriculum was designed to streamline the courses and cut down on lecture times, so the wheels were already in motion, my class was in fact the last class to be on the older style curriculum, which has its ups and downs for sure, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit envious of the new curriculum that you guys will have.

The dean also emphasized that there are many measures in place and that people don't need to worry at all, because all of this will get resolved, since it is all fixable administration issues and topics that the school has already been working on. Furthermore, I interviewed at many different schools, and SA felt like the best all well rounded environment, and I still firmly believe that. Also it is important to realize that this LCME business is in no way indicative of the student body. Our school continues to match into highly competitive residency programs and we have a 96% step pass rate.

Hope that clarifies some of the confusion, that I too faced when hearing about this. Feel free to ask any questions regarding med school/ UTHSCSA/ etc.

 

[Status Sciaticus]

Hey perspective students/ applicants etc, there was a lot of discussion about the LCME findings, and I first off wanted to appease you all by letting you know that it is definitely not anything to worry about. I am a first year and heard the explanation from the dean of the med school who explained that 2 of the 3 main concerns were strictly administration issues that were quick fixes. For example: they needed to streamline all of the faculty's administrative and billing divisions so that one person would over see all of those together (this person has already been appointed now and steps have already been taken to ensure that all regulations are met).

The second issue was a matter of centralizing all of the offices/ med school departments in one location, so in the future, instead of having to go across campus to get to the Office of Academic Enhancement, we will simply go to the new office being built on the fifth floor of the library. And finally, the issues with the curriculum... If you have already interviewed here, you know that there was already a new integrated curriculum ready to go for the next class (2016).
The third issue was that the curriculum was outdated and that there was too much passive time spent in lectures. The new curriculum was designed to streamline the courses and cut down on lecture times, so the wheels were already in motion, my class was in fact the last class to be on the older style curriculum, which has its ups and downs for sure, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit envious of the new curriculum that you guys will have.

The dean also emphasized that there are many measures in place and that people don't need to worry at all, because all of this will get resolved, since it is all fixable administration issues and topics that the school has already been working on. Furthermore, I interviewed at many different schools, and SA felt like the best all well rounded environment, and I still firmly believe that. Also it is important to realize that this LCME business is in no way indicative of the student body. Our school continues to match into highly competitive residency programs and we have a 96% step pass rate.

Hope that clarifies some of the confusion, that I too faced when hearing about this. Feel free to ask any questions regarding med school/ UTHSCSA/ etc.

is the 96% the first time or overall pass rate?
also what is the average step I score ??

 

[minerva3121]

is the 96% the first time or overall pass rate?
also what is the average step I score ??

This is from the attachment to the email:

Pass rate and average score meet or exceed national averages
(96% pass rate Step 1, 225 vs. 185 average pass score; 98% pass rate Step II)

 

[sector9]

Hey perspective students/ applicants etc, there was a lot of discussion about the LCME findings, and I first off wanted to appease you all by letting you know that it is definitely not anything to worry about. I am a first year and heard the explanation from the dean of the med school who explained that 2 of the 3 main concerns were strictly administration issues that were quick fixes. For example: they needed to streamline all of the faculty's administrative and billing divisions so that one person would over see all of those together (this person has already been appointed now and steps have already been taken to ensure that all regulations are met).

The second issue was a matter of centralizing all of the offices/ med school departments in one location, so in the future, instead of having to go across campus to get to the Office of Academic Enhancement, we will simply go to the new office being built on the fifth floor of the library. And finally, the issues with the curriculum... If you have already interviewed here, you know that there was already a new integrated curriculum ready to go for the next class (2016).
The third issue was that the curriculum was outdated and that there was too much passive time spent in lectures. The new curriculum was designed to streamline the courses and cut down on lecture times, so the wheels were already in motion, my class was in fact the last class to be on the older style curriculum, which has its ups and downs for sure, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit envious of the new curriculum that you guys will have.

The dean also emphasized that there are many measures in place and that people don't need to worry at all, because all of this will get resolved, since it is all fixable administration issues and topics that the school has already been working on. Furthermore, I interviewed at many different schools, and SA felt like the best all well rounded environment, and I still firmly believe that. Also it is important to realize that this LCME business is in no way indicative of the student body. Our school continues to match into highly competitive residency programs and we have a 96% step pass rate.

Hope that clarifies some of the confusion, that I too faced when hearing about this. Feel free to ask any questions regarding med school/ UTHSCSA/ etc.

Thanks for the clarifications and additional information.

My biggest problem with this news is found in the following quote from the letter from the dean:

An LCME request for a decrease in the number of lecture hours after the 2003 visit was responded to and eventually led to approval of the curriculum in 2008. However, our curriculum renewal was not sufficiently developed at the time of the 2011 site visit, and it is still ongoing, so further reductions in passive learning activities did not proceed at a level expected by the LCME.

They were told of one of the problems back in 2003, it took until 2008 for them to have a plan in place, and their plan wasn't sufficiently implemented for the 2011 visit! Yes, I understand that the school is fixing the problem for the class of 2016 to which we are applying, but that's an extremely slow response.

 

[Status Sciaticus]

Thanks for the clarifications and additional information.

My biggest problem with this news is found in the following quote from the letter from the dean:


They were told of one of the problems back in 2003, it took until 2008 for them to have a plan in place, and their plan wasn't sufficiently implemented for the 2011 visit! Yes, I understand that the school is fixing the problem for the class of 2016 to which we are applying, but that's an extremely slow response.

their curriculum in 2008 was obviously approved. so the new standard the LCME wants them to follow must have occurred after that and now its the 2012 curriculum. 5 year gaps... maybe they wanted to test for the validity of their traditional curriculum before doing away with it, which is understandable.

 

[mtbtx]

The curriculum was changed as minimally as possible in 2008 per the LCME. They wanted UTHSCSA to change it even more, which is why we have decided to wipe the slate clean and start over with the new, integrated curriculum.

As for the probationary status, it is unsettling, but it is simply a formality. The school has been providing nearly the same exact curriculum since the early 70's, with many of the same professors still currently teaching. I'm pretty sure UTHSCSA has put out a few successful physicians in that time frame, and felt as though they shouldn't "fix" the system if it wasn't broken (hence the resistance for change). As a first year medical student here, I can understand why the changes were felt as necessary by the LCME when compared to other schools though. We spend at least 8 hours per day in lecture and are required to do two dissections per week after class. We get a minimal amount of clinical hands on experience, and spend most of our time in the same lecture hall as we listen to 6-8 lectures per day. I do love the curriculum and learning style here, but it is definitely time consuming, and not as "study efficient" as some of the new curriculum schools.

With that being said, I highly respect our school for the willingness and ability to adapt to new suggestions and regulations, when they have been producing successful doctors nearly the same way for 40 years. Some of our professors are nationally renowned experts in medical education, and have even taught new generations of professors that teach at other schools across the country. These are the people that have been open to critique by the LCME, and instead of being stubborn or retiring, will be innovating a new and assuredly better curriculum for future students. The new curriculum has been under construction for at least the past year and will be ready in time for the class of 2016, immediately meeting the requirements set by the LCME and lifting the probation. I'm not sure why the LCME decided to enact this probationary status at this point, since all of the deficiencies have either been met or are in the final stages of being met. Its not as if this was some surprise to the school, as we have been preparing for change for quite some time, so I feel as if LCME should have given us some leeway. Regardless, the probationary status has not, and will not affect the performance and placement of students, and the new curriculum will only make things better in the future.

 

[reglano]

Hey perspective students/ applicants etc, there was a lot of discussion about the LCME findings, and I first off wanted to appease you all by letting you know that it is definitely not anything to worry about. I am a first year and heard the explanation from the dean of the med school who explained that 2 of the 3 main concerns were strictly administration issues that were quick fixes. For example: they needed to streamline all of the faculty's administrative and billing divisions so that one person would over see all of those together (this person has already been appointed now and steps have already been taken to ensure that all regulations are met).

The second issue was a matter of centralizing all of the offices/ med school departments in one location, so in the future, instead of having to go across campus to get to the Office of Academic Enhancement, we will simply go to the new office being built on the fifth floor of the library. And finally, the issues with the curriculum... If you have already interviewed here, you know that there was already a new integrated curriculum ready to go for the next class (2016).
The third issue was that the curriculum was outdated and that there was too much passive time spent in lectures. The new curriculum was designed to streamline the courses and cut down on lecture times, so the wheels were already in motion, my class was in fact the last class to be on the older style curriculum, which has its ups and downs for sure, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit envious of the new curriculum that you guys will have.

The dean also emphasized that there are many measures in place and that people don't need to worry at all, because all of this will get resolved, since it is all fixable administration issues and topics that the school has already been working on. Furthermore, I interviewed at many different schools, and SA felt like the best all well rounded environment, and I still firmly believe that. Also it is important to realize that this LCME business is in no way indicative of the student body. Our school continues to match into highly competitive residency programs and we have a 96% step pass rate.

Hope that clarifies some of the confusion, that I too faced when hearing about this. Feel free to ask any questions regarding med school/ UTHSCSA/ etc.

As a prospective student who considered UTHSCSA a top choice, I was very disappointed when I received the news and will now only consider this school as a last resort.

I am sure that UTHSCSA will make the required changes in time, that they will be taken off probation, and that the students will be fine -- because any outcome other than that one would be disastrous and I don't think that the UTHSCSA administrators can be that incompetent. However, what does this situation say about the school?

First, it says that it's a poorly managed institution. Currently, only UTHSCSA and the Commonwealth Medical College are on probation of all the 100+ schools in the continental US. This suggests that abiding by these standards isn't an overly difficult task and that the vast majority of medical schools jump through these hoops just fine. Additionally, Commonwealth accepted its first class in 2009, so it's somewhat understandable that they could have difficulties starting out. But what excuse does San Antonio have?

Secondly, it says that the administration isn't doing everything that they can to help their students succeed. The above poster says:

Our school continues to match into highly competitive residency programs and we have a 96% step pass rate.

It can't be said that the school "continues to match into highly competitive residency programs" because it was just put on probation. Whether it will make a difference in residency matches or not will be evident in the next couple of years. But, if I was a 3rd or 4th year UTHSCSA student seeking a competitive specialty, I would not be excited about the idea of being the test subject of that experiment. It's clear that coming from a school that is on probation isn't going to help in the residency match process, and this is a highly competitive process in which the students need all the help that they can get. The students wouldn't have to worry about any of this if the administration had simply complied with the same requirements with which over 99% of the other schools complied.

Finally and, I think, most importantly it shows a tremendous disrespect towards their students. All of the UTHSCSA students worked really hard to get to become medical students. Many of them probably could've gone to other schools too. Now, they're stuck with this problem simply because the administrators didn't do their job. It's just not acceptable.

I think that the current students need to lobby for changes in the administration, and that prospective students should go elsewhere if they can.

 

[Bouddha]

As a prospective student who considered UTHSCSA a top choice, I was very disappointed when I received the news and will now only consider this school as a last resort.

As a current student who loves this school, the faculty, and their classmates, if you don't feel like UTHSCSA is good enough for you, then feel free to withdraw your application. I'm sure there are many people eager to take your place.

I am sure that UTHSCSA will make the required changes in time, that they will be taken off probation, and that the students will be fine -- because any outcome other than that one would be disastrous and I don't think that the UTHSCSA administrators can be that incompetent. However, what does this situation say about the school?

First, it says that it's a poorly managed institution. Currently, only UTHSCSA and the Commonwealth Medical College are on probation of all the 100+ schools in the continental US. This suggests that abiding by these standards isn't an overly difficult task and that the vast majority of medical schools jump through these hoops just fine. Additionally, Commonwealth accepted its first class in 2009, so it's somewhat understandable that they could have difficulties starting out. But what excuse does San Antonio have?

Secondly, it says that the administration isn't doing everything that they can to help their students succeed. The above poster says:



It can't be said that the school "continues to match into highly competitive residency programs" because it was just put on probation. Whether it will make a difference in residency matches or not will be evident in the next couple of years. But, if I was a 3rd or 4th year UTHSCSA student seeking a competitive specialty, I would not be excited about the idea of being the test subject of that experiment. It's clear that coming from a school that is on probation isn't going to help in the residency match process, and this is a highly competitive process in which the students need all the help that they can get. The students wouldn't have to worry about any of this if the administration had simply complied with the same requirements with which over 99% of the other schools complied.

Finally and, I think, most importantly it shows a tremendous disrespect towards their students. All of the UTHSCSA students worked really hard to get to become medical students. Many of them probably could've gone to other schools too. Now, they're stuck with this problem simply because the administrators didn't do their job. It's just not acceptable.

I think that the current students need to lobby for changes in the administration, and that prospective students should go elsewhere if they can.

You seem to be missing the point that there appears to have been a disagreement about the fundamental approach to medical education. Should probationary status have happened...NO. That doesn't mean that the administration is incompetent. Hell, the dean was only hired in the summer of 2010, and there was not a permanent dean for some time before that.

Our administration goes above and beyond when it comes to setting it's students up for success. Yes, the system was until this point a bit antiquated, but that was already set to be remedied as of next summer. If anything, I think this probationary status will make the school better than ever, as they are now exerting extraordinary effort at making UTHSCSA the best institution possible.

For those of you applying and concerned, I understand your concerns. However, this school falls within the UT System, and because of that relationship, there is virtually zero percent of the school actually loosing it's accreditation (the UT System would just not let that happen, meaning they would commit whatever resources necessary to ensure the school was meeting the LCME requirements).

At the end of the day, I think you'll find that most students here love the school, and have faith in the administration. I know I do, and wouldn't be happier anywhere else. These are my two cents...

 

[Techmed07]

First Parkland woes at UTSW then UT-Houston not accomendating applicants when they have conflicting interviews dates. Now, UTSA is on probation.

What a shame.🙁

 

[therunner12]

First Parkland woes at UTSW then UT-Houston not accomendating applicants when they have conflicting interviews dates. Now, UTSA is on probation.

What a shame.🙁

You should probably go to Pritzker.

 

[eli20]

First Parkland woes at UTSW then UT-Houston not accomendating applicants when they have conflicting interviews dates. Now, UTSA is on probation.

What a shame.🙁

1 of these 3 things is not like the other...

 

[Techmed07]

You should probably go to Pritzker.

 

[Morzh]

Hey perspective students/ applicants....

As for the probationary status, it is unsettling, but it is simply a formality...

As a current student who loves this school...

Thank you three for your great responses. I'm very biased and think UTSOMSA absolutely walks on water. By far my top choice. You've calmed my troubled soul. I actually think right now is the absolute BEST time to matriculate here because, like you said, they are going to be making sure they go the extra mile in every way possible from now on.

It's also comforting to know that this has nothing to do with the quality of education during 3rd/4th years (the ones that really matter).

 

[reglano]

You seem to be missing the point that there appears to have been a disagreement about the fundamental approach to medical education.

The LCME dictates the standards for medical education in the United States. Following them isn't optional. The LCME warned UTHSCSA about standards they were not meeting, UTHSCSA did not fix it and were put on probation. That's not a disagreement -- that's a failure to meet the standards of medical education in the US.

Our administration goes above and beyond when it comes to setting it's students up for success.

Then, why did they allow this to happen? 99% of the other schools made sure it didn't happen to them.

If it wasn't clear in my first post, I believe that UTHSCSA students and faculty are excellent and deserve the best. It was one of my top choices for a reason. However, I am very disappointed that the administrators -- the people whose responsibility it is to make sure the school meets national standards -- did not do their jobs.

 

[Morzh]

The LCME dictates the standards for medical education in the United States. Following them isn't optional. The LCME warned UTHSCSA about standards they were not meeting, UTHSCSA did not fix it and were put on probation. That's not a disagreement -- that's a failure to meet the standards of medical education in the US.

Then, why did they allow this to happen? 99% of the other schools made sure it didn't happen to them.

If it wasn't clear in my first post, I believe that UTHSCSA students and faculty are excellent and deserve the best. It was one of my top choices for a reason. However, I am very disappointed that the administrators -- the people whose responsibility it is to make sure the school meets national standards -- did not do their jobs.

There's some merit to what your saying, however I personally am willing to give the dean some leniency since he just inherited all this a few years ago and seems to be working hard to implement the new changes as quickly as possible. If anyone deserved blame, it is probably whoever the dean was from 2002-2008. And he's gone, so it doesn't matter.

I also think there is more back-and-forth/politics at play than we realize. Your "LCME is God and you must bow immediately to their demands without questioning" sentiments are not entirely correct. I'm sure if the school had known the LCME was going to play "hardball" a few years ago they would have expedited the changes sooner, albeit they would likely be less polished than they will be now. Perhaps the comment above about coming down harder from now on in response to SJU is valid.

Most importantly, as the dean pointed out UTSOMSA and the LCME are on the same team and share the same mission. Probation does not mean the school was dysfunctional or woefully inadequate. I mean it's just 10 violations out 126... 6-8 is the average number of violations at non-probated schools. They're barely over the line. Probation is not a punishment or condemnation, but rather constructive criticism. And since the changes (other than the curriculum which we already knew about) are primarily administrative (billing and hierarchy stuff) it will likely have no measurable effect on students' education. I seriously doubt residency directors will be short-sighted and ill-informed enough to look less upon UTSOMSA students because of this. They know what's what. GWU was put on probation in 2008 and the probation was lifted in Feb 2010... the students remained just as competitive as ever. And their problems were far more serious. UTSOMSA's are superficial by comparison.

The comment above about bad timing above is also significant. If their review had been scheduled for 2012 instead this would have never even happened. Not that that totally excuses the school, but this really doesn't seem like a big deal. As prospective students it is silly to let this lower our esteem of the school. All the reasons we loved it before today are still in place, and we can rest assured even more reasons to love it are coming soon.

 

[cyanide12345678]

GWU was put on probation in 2008 and the probation was lifted in Feb 2010...

Thats interesting. Does anyone know more about other schools that have been on probation. I just want to gauge if probation status effects the reputation of the school.

 

[Morzh]

Thats interesting. Does anyone know more about other schools that have been on probation. I just want to gauge if probation status effects the reputation of the school.

You can google "LCME George Washington Probation" for some news articles about that school's situation.

I couldn't find a list of all schools that have ever been probated.

 

[sector9]

Thats interesting. Does anyone know more about other schools that have been on probation. I just want to gauge if probation status effects the reputation of the school.

George Washington-Oct 2008 to Feb 2010
TCMC (The Commonwealth Med. Col.)- June 2011 to current
MCP Hahnemann (now known as Drexel)- Oct 1998 they were informed that they were about to be put on probation, MCP appealed, won the appeal, and the LCME rescinded the decision
San Juan Bautista- ??? until accredition revoked this month
Temple- Feb 2003 to Feb 2004
Universidad Central Del Caribe (Puerto Rico)- Oct 1994 to Feb 2000
Ponce School of Medicine (Puerto Rico)- Dec 1994 to Feb 1999. Placed on probation again in 2010 (I think?) and is currently on probation
Rosalind Franklin- June 2004 to June 2005
University of Saskatchewan (Canada)- Feb 2003 to Feb 2005
UTHSCSA- Oct 2011 to current

I might be missing one or two but that list is fairly complete, AFAIK

So probation is not completely rare but is not entirely common either

Interesting to note that back in 2008, University of Alberta was threatened with probation. They were deficient on 12 of the standards but successfully avoided the probation. (UTHSCSA's letter said there were 10 unmet standards but this news source says 11 deficiences but 2 were reduced in severity upon appeal http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/ed...nio-s-medical-school-on-probation-2222609.php) Strange that UTHSCSA couldn't avoid it. Source for Alberta info: http://www.folio.ualberta.ca/article.cfm?v=83301&i=82429&a=3

 

[Status Sciaticus]

First Parkland woes at UTSW then UT-Houston not accomendating applicants when they have conflicting interviews dates. Now, UTSA is on probation.

What a shame.🙁

accomendating? learn to spell before we all start to doubt your acceptances into harvard, columbia, penn, mayo, and pritzker.

seems like youre the one hating on the schools brah. you should probably go to Mayo.

 

[cyanide12345678]

George Washington-Oct 2008 to Feb 2010
TCMC (The Commonwealth Med. Col.)- June 2011 to current
MCP Hahnemann (now known as Drexel)- Oct 1998 they were informed that they were about to be put on probation, MCP appealed, won the appeal, and the LCME rescinded the decision
San Juan Bautista- ??? until accredition revoked this month
Temple- Feb 2003 to Feb 2004
Universidad Central Del Caribe (Puerto Rico)- Oct 1994 to Feb 2000
Ponce School of Medicine (Puerto Rico)- Dec 1994 to Feb 1999. Placed on probation again in 2010 (I think?) and is currently on probation
Rosalind Franklin- June 2004 to June 2005
University of Saskatchewan (Canada)- Feb 2003 to Feb 2005
UTHSCSA- Oct 2011 to current

I might be missing one or two but that list is fairly complete, AFAIK

So probation is not completely rare but is not entirely common either

Interesting to note that back in 2008, University of Alberta was threatened with probation. They were deficient on 12 of the standards but successfully avoided the probation. (UTHSCSA's letter said there were 10 unmet standards but this news source says 11 deficiences but 2 were reduced in severity upon appeal http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/ed...nio-s-medical-school-on-probation-2222609.php) Strange that UTHSCSA couldn't avoid it. Source for Alberta info: http://www.folio.ualberta.ca/article.cfm?v=83301&i=82429&a=3

THanks! Thats really helpful information. George washington and Temple seem to stick out to me in your list as schools similar to UTHSCSA (Temple perhaps better). So, I guess the probation isn't unheard of. Though, I'm fairly certain that UTHSCSA will be coming out of this stronger than ever. My only concern is the dent on reputation that this probation may have on their program.

 

[MayoorBust]

Whoa, alot of anger on this page. Techmed07 you might want to lie low for a bit. In other news, Prematch is less than a month away! 😀

 

[nmed20]

Interesting to note that back in 2008, University of Alberta was threatened with probation. They were deficient on 12 of the standards but successfully avoided the probation. (UTHSCSA's letter said there were 10 unmet standards but this news source says 11 deficiences but 2 were reduced in severity upon appeal http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/ed...nio-s-medical-school-on-probation-2222609.php) Strange that UTHSCSA couldn't avoid it. Source for Alberta info: http://www.folio.ualberta.ca/article.cfm?v=83301&i=82429&a=3

You're correct. The University of Alberta medical school almost got put on probation when LCME found 12 areas of concern, but the U of A admin were able to argue 7 of the 12 were being handled and avoided probation in 2007. Apparently, they were threatened with probation in 2006 for "overly heavy use of lectures in its pre-clinical curriculum, and the alleged mistreatment of its students in hospitals. However, the University managed to appeal the decision before it came into effect in February 2007, arguing it met enough of the committee's accreditation standards."
(see: http://ottewell.gateway.ualberta.ca...as-faculty-medicine-recieves-us-accreditation)
So, the U of A was able to avoid it and it had one problem in common with the UTHSCSA: the over-use of lectures.
IMO, the 'alleged mistreatment of medical students in hospitals' accusation the U of A faced is more serious than 'needing to streamline administration' that UTHSCSA does, and yet the U of A appealed and avoided probation, but UTHSCSA did not?

Also, a quote from article from the then acting vice dean of the Faculty of Medicine and Dentistry at the U of A:

"But if it wasn't for this close call, many of the improvements wouldn't have happened, according to Dr Verna Yiu, acting vice dean of the Faculty of Medicine and Dentistry.
"When the threat of probation came out, I think it gave everybody a rude awakening," she said. "We can't have a faculty without a medical school. We are absolutely dependent on [it]."

 

[Morzh]

You're correct. The University of Alberta medical school almost got put on probation when LCME found 12 areas of concern, but the U of A admin were able to argue 7 of the 12 were being handled and avoided probation in 2007. Apparently, they were threatened with probation in 2006 for "overly heavy use of lectures in its pre-clinical curriculum, and the alleged mistreatment of its students in hospitals. However, the University managed to appeal the decision before it came into effect in February 2007, arguing it met enough of the committee's accreditation standards."
(see: http://ottewell.gateway.ualberta.ca...as-faculty-medicine-recieves-us-accreditation)
So, the U of A was able to avoid it and it had one problem in common with the UTHSCSA: the over-use of lectures.
IMO, the 'alleged mistreatment of medical students in hospitals' accusation the U of A faced is more serious than 'needing to streamline administration' that UTHSCSA does, and yet the U of A appealed and avoided probation, but UTHSCSA did not?

Also, a quote from article from the then acting vice dean of the Faculty of Medicine and Dentistry at the U of A:

Interesting. The only reason I can imagine as to why UTSOMSA's appeal efforts did not succeed is that the LCME decided that the changes should have already been implemented, not about to be implemented. Maybe they are taking a harder line on things now because of the SJB incident.

Oh well. Yesterday this news was a little unsettling. Today I'm actually glad for it, because like the Alberta dean you quoted said--not only will this fast-track the planned changes, but they are going to be pulling out all the stops to make sure this school is phenomenal.

UTSOMSA is and always has been a very high caliber institution, and this is an insult to their pride in some ways. It is not representative of the quality of the education students get there. A decent analogy would be Mack Brown's Longhorns last year. The longhorns are a high caliber program, and it is simply unacceptable for them to have losing seasons. Even if it takes a season to adjust to all the changes, you can rest assured they will do whatever to takes to ensure that never happens again. They'll be stronger than ever.