2018-2019 Waitlist Support Thread

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pokemon9264 said:
That would be awesome! Please do keep us updated! They've been known to have a large WL movement, but it's been awfully quiet...
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Okay, I called UCD, and talked to someone who was super helpful! Basically, the waitlist is still open, and they plan to send out emails letting us know when it is closed. (She hinted that she suspects that it will be early July—I didn’t press because these things are dynamic and we’ve all heard the stories of calls off the WL up to the 1st week of classes.) CTE date is July 1st. The website states the following:

Waitlist: Applicant informed of waitlist status with final decision starting 5/1 through 7/15

Unfortunately, they are still not accepting any updates/LOI.
 
BirdMD123 said:
Okay, I called UCD, and talked to someone who was super helpful! Basically, the waitlist is still open, and they plan to send out emails letting us know when it is closed. (She hinted that she suspects that it will be early July—I didn’t press because these things are dynamic and we’ve all heard the stories of calls off the WL up to the 1st week of classes.) CTE date is July 1st. The website states the following:

Waitlist: Applicant informed of waitlist status with final decision starting 5/1 through 7/15

Unfortunately, they are still not accepting any updates/LOI.
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Thank you so much for sharing! That's helpful information.
 
gyngyn said:
It is a potential strategy this far out from the start of school. Remember that the PTE kid is opening a seat somewhere!
It is also true that as orientation draws near, someone with no acceptances is a quick seat-filler.
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This would be good overall for applicants with no A’s who are waitlisted at lower tier, more expensive schools, since people who may hold an A at those schools would be seen as “PTE elsewhere” but could get pulled off waitlists and commit to other higher ranked/state-affiliated/less expensive schools, right? Or am I just being too optimistic.. ?
 
I am being neurotic and following the suggestion to go through the last years school specific threads for the waitlists that I’m on. Not only have I mentioned the school names multiple times in this thread, but also I put my last name in my username and don’t know how to change it lol. SO here’s some school specific stats with no anonymity. I know that you( @DrOptimusPrime ) are on the Mercer waitlist so thought this may be helpful!

For Mercer, I emailed, and they said that the class is currently full and the waitlist is moving slowly. Also, of course the waitlist is not ranked 🙂 Last cycle, there were 7 acceptances posted by may 1 then 1 final one posted on may 14. however, people did not seem very active on the thread. So 8 total posted, but Mercer usually has great movement. This cycle there have been 0 posted

For Medical College of Georgia, there were 10 acceptances off the waitlist posted in the first week of May, 2 more throughout May, and one final acceptance posted the 1st of june. So 13 in total. This cycle there has been 3 posted. This waitlist is also not ranked. I emailed and received a reply with zero information.
 
JPM2012 said:
You haven't spent enough time around lawyers. You'll see elsewhere in that same set of guidelines published by AAMC words like "must." Areas that say "must" could be enforced more easily by AAMC against a school. Here they use "encouraged to take reasonable measures" and "carefully consider." These are intentionally weak and non-binding. The school doing the poaching only has to meet those weak standards before deciding to poach. Now, if the student matriculates and signs paperwork that is more binding, then the student could face litigation or some kind of penalty like forfeiting tuition. As @gyngyn put it, these are only suggestions to the schools.
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I agree, and I'm not under any illusion that AAMC is going to enforce anything. What I'm think about is a little more subtle. Let's say a T20 poaches from a lower tier school, creating an issue where maybe the lower tier school either ends up with an empty seat, or just doesn't want to be in a position where it has to scramble to fill seats at the last minute every year because "dream schools" think the "C" in "CTE" doesn't mean anything. The adversely affected schools could potentially sue the T20 schools for causing the students to breach the contract that the "CTE" creates. Is any WL student important enough to the T20 school to risk this? Why not just check the report, follow the guidelines, and stay away from CTEs on the WL, if not before the CTE deadline, certainly after it. Seems like the path of least resistance to me. It differs from what happened in the past, when poaching was a thing, because CTE did not exist then.

@gyngyn - is this not reasonable? Is your school really going to ignore CTEs elsewhere (i.e., accepting students regardless of whether or not they have CTE'd at another school) and just pull whoever you want from the WL if you have vacancies when your CTE deadline rolls around?
 
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KnightDoc said:
I agree, and I'm not under any illusion that AAMC is going to enforce anything. What I'm think about is a little more subtle. Let's say a T20 poaches from a lower tier school, creating an issue where maybe the lower tier school either ends up with an empty seat, or just doesn't want to be in a position where it has to scramble to fill seats at the last minute every year because "dream schools" think the "C" in "CTE" doesn't mean anything. The adversely affected schools could potentially sue the T20 schools for causing the students to breach the contract that the "CTE" creates. Is any WL student important enough to the T20 school to risk this? Why not just check the report, follow the guidelines, and stay away from CTEs on the WL, if not before the CTE deadline, certainly after it. Seems like the path of least resistance to me. It differs from what happened in the past, when poaching was a thing, because CTE did not exist then.

@gyngyn - is this not reasonable? Is your school really going to ignore CTEs elsewhere (i.e., accepting students regardless of whether or not they have CTE'd at another school) and just pull whoever you want from the WL if you have vacancies when your CTE deadline rolls around?
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Rest assured, no school (at any "tier") is going to have unfilled seats. Thus, no damages and no litigation.
Nobody knows who is following the "guidelines." Without assurance of a level playing field, why would any school follow them?
We never poached students who had started school elsewhere. Now we don't know if they have started or not.
 
KnightDoc said:
I agree, and I'm not under any illusion that AAMC is going to enforce anything. What I'm think about is a little more subtle. Let's say a T20 poaches from a lower tier school, creating an issue where maybe the lower tier school either ends up with an empty seat, or just doesn't want to be in a position where it has to scramble to fill seats at the last minute every year because "dream schools" think the "C" in "CTE" doesn't mean anything. The adversely affected schools could potentially sue the T20 schools for causing the students to breach the contract that the "CTE" creates. Is any WL student important enough to the T20 school to risk this? Why not just check the report, follow the guidelines, and stay away from CTEs on the WL, if not before the CTE deadline, certainly after it. Seems like the path of least resistance to me. It differs from what happened in the past, when poaching was a thing, because CTE did not exist then.

@gyngyn - is this not reasonable? Is your school really going to ignore CTEs elsewhere (i.e., accepting students regardless of whether or not they have CTE'd at another school) and just pull whoever you want from the WL if you have vacancies when your CTE deadline rolls around?
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This convo is interesting. When I was reading your comment I was thinking to myself that the C in CTE doesn't actually mean anything unless a school creates their own rule about it. The rule/contract would then be between that specific school and the student. . . I'm not seeing how a school could then sue another school for the student's choice to not follow the rule. So far, the only recourse I've seen threatened is that schools may rescind your acceptance if you don't follow their CTE rule. Not sure they would want to spend the time or energy to sue a student that leaves them with an empty seat. What would they get? Money?
 
MaelTheSun said:
I looked up the filler episodes so I knew which to avoid, but I finished the story. Onto the boruto movie
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Bruh. Parks and rec (900000x over) has kept me from the brink of quarter life crisis this cycle.

I work on a psych unit and low key use the med school application cycle all the time as and non-triggering example of a traumatic event and healthy vs unhealthy coping skills.
 
KnightDoc said:
🙂 Understood, but the "C" in CTE has a legal meaning,

Given that this whole new environment was precipitated by AAMC's fear of some remote possibility of litigation stemming from your ability to see other acceptances, it would be pretty ironic if individual schools would be willing to risk litigation by interfering with the contractual rights of peer institutions by luring away students who have made a binding "CTE" at another school!

You obviously know way more about this world than I ever will, but, tell me, when schools poached in the past, was there language similar to the CTE language involved with the matriculation? If not, then I would suggest that it is only safe to poach from schools that have not adopted the CTE protocol, if any. If so, then CTE doesn't mean anything and never will (so you might as well do away with it), in which case there is no reason for you or any of your peers to be stressing over your PTE/CTE ratios, since nothing means anything until classes start everywhere, the music stops, and all seats are filled!

If CTE is not going to be respected for the commitment that it represents, backed up by the threat of litigation against schools that poach if students are induced to break binding commitments by other schools, then there is just no reason to have it at all. In the real world, non-compete clauses have value because companies do not hesitate to sue competitors for damages when key employees are lured away.

I wouldn't be surprised if schools avoid the issue by actually following the "rules" and only accepting folks who have not CTE'd elsewhere once CTE deadlines roll around.
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Regarding the bolded: I must, sadly, differ. It has no legal meaning.
There are no contracts between schools.

There once were rules of engagement that prohibited poaching students that had started school. Now we don't know where they are accepted so that can not be a prohibition.

Students used to be able to stay on a WL as long as they wanted, now they are being forced to abandon those hopes in order to keep a seat they may not prefer. The losers here are the students. The schools will always be able to figure out something, even in this "system." after all we have years to figure out an angle. With any luck, an applicant only has to do this once.
 
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gyngyn said:
Regarding the bolded: I must, sadly, differ. It has no legal meaning.
There are no contracts between schools.

There once were rules of engagement that prohibited poaching students that had started school. Now we don't know where they are accepted so that can not be a prohibition.
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So based on the rule changes do you expect there to be more poaching and last-minute movement this year?
 
justkeepswimming1050 said:
So based on the rule changes do you expect there to be more poaching and last-minute movement this year?
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If there is to be movement, it will be when CTE deadlines approach, not at the last minute.
 
anyone got a link to the deadline thread? I can't find it after searching with the function and this thread
 
gyngyn said:
Rest assured, no school (at any "tier") is going to have unfilled seats. Thus, no damages and no litigation.
Nobody knows who is following the "guidelines." Without assurance of a level playing field, why would any school follow them?
We never poached students who had started school elsewhere. Now we don't know if they have started or not.
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Fair enough, but isn't CTE this year's version of starting somewhere else?
 
OchemOficionado said:
This convo is interesting. When I was reading your comment I was thinking to myself that the C in CTE doesn't actually mean anything unless a school creates their own rule about it. The rule/contract would then be between that specific school and the student. . . I'm not seeing how a school could then sue another school for the student's choice to not follow the rule. So far, the only recourse I've seen threatened is that schools may rescind your acceptance if you don't follow their CTE rule. Not sure they would want to spend the time or energy to sue a student that leaves them with an empty seat. What would they get? Money?
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Yes, the contract is between the school and the student, just like a non-compete is between an employer and a former employee. The third party (in this case, the school accepting off the WL when it knows, or should know, that the student has CTE'd elsewhere) could be sued for inducing the breach of the contract. Google tortious interference. 🙂
 
KnightDoc said:
Yes, the contract is between the school and the student, just like a non-compete is between an employer and a former employee. The third party (in this case, the school accepting off the WL when it knows, or should know, that the student has CTE'd elsewhere) could be sued for inducing the breach of the contract. Google tortious interference. 🙂
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Schools aren't going to sue over their students getting poached because what if they want to poach someone. It opens up a tit for tat situation between schools. Only schools where a suit could come from is a state or low tier school.

We also recognize CTE isn't a real contract. It's like when a kid says they are "committed" to go play ball at a college. Until they sign a LOI it doesn't mean anything. Same thing with CTE except there are no contractual forms in the end to my knowledge.
 
gyngyn said:
Regarding the bolded: I must, sadly, differ. It has no legal meaning.
There are no contracts between schools.

There once were rules of engagement that prohibited poaching students that had started school. Now we don't know where they are accepted so that can not be a prohibition.

Students used to be able to stay on a WL as long as they wanted, now they are being forced to abandon those hopes in order to keep a seat they may not prefer. The losers here are the students. The schools will always be able to figure out something, even in this "system." after all we have years to figure out an angle. With any luck, an applicant only has to do this once.
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I do realize there are no contracts between schools, and I also realize it would be highly provocative for any school to actually sue another school over this. On the other hand it would also be crazy for the "less desirable" schools to have to constantly be scrambling at the last minute to fill a class as "more desirable" schools poach their students at the last minute if they have vacancies after their CTE deadline rolls around. If CTE status is going to be universally ignored by the schools, there is no reason to have it.

For the record, if any school were so inclined, it could certainly sue another for inducing a student with a Commitment to Enroll to break that commitment to enroll at the other school. It's called tortious interference in the legal world. The damages would be the inconvenience involved in having to scramble to fill a seat at the last minute, after its class was filled at its CTE deadline, as well as the loss of the "more desirable student" that initially accepted and being forced to replace that student with the "less desirable" student off its WL at the last minute.

I'm not saying this would play out, but it could, and it could be easily avoided by staying away from CTE students on the WL. A court could certainly choose to punish an offending school for failing to avoid inflicting the pain on the other school. If you want students to have your school as a choice, the answer is to accept him or her before he or she commits elsewhere, as opposed to causing disruption in the entire ecosystem when a spot happens to open at your school. There is also something to be said for forcing the student to lie in the bed he or she made when deciding to go with the sure thing and not risk not being able to matriculate if you WL acceptance fails to materialize.

Again, are you really saying your school is going to ignore CTE status and take whoever you want? If so, and if other schools do so as well, you will have even less clarity next year as students realize CTE has no meaning.

You are, of course, correct about students losing choice and flexibility. If there is consensus among your peers to restore it, abandon the CTE protocol, allow everyone to stay on WLs to the bitter end, and deal with the consequences. Having a protocol that some schools enforce and others ignore is going to lead to the whole system collapsing around you. You will literally have no idea who is showing up until classes begin, and even then, you could end up losing a few students if you begin early enough. 🙂

I totally hear what you are saying about your ability to figure it out over time, but the choice is pretty binary -- either go back to what you had (which you said is a non-starter), enforce the CTE requirement (if you chose to adopt it, and honor it if another school adopted it), or live with the chaos inherent in allowing students total freedom of movement without receiving the planning benefit associated with a CTE that you neither going to enforce nor respect. Again, if word gets out that schools picked off other schools' CTE students with impunity, after the deadline, word will get out and everyone will do it, rendering it meaningless and you'll be in the same position as if you never had it in the first place.
 
schmitt4108 said:
I am being neurotic and following the suggestion to go through the last years school specific threads for the waitlists that I’m on. Not only have I mentioned the school names multiple times in this thread, but also I put my last name in my username and don’t know how to change it lol. SO here’s some school specific stats with no anonymity. I know that you( @DrOptimusPrime ) are on the Mercer waitlist so thought this may be helpful!

For Mercer, I emailed, and they said that the class is currently full and the waitlist is moving slowly. Also, of course the waitlist is not ranked 🙂 Last cycle, there were 7 acceptances posted by may 1 then 1 final one posted on may 14. however, people did not seem very active on the thread. So 8 total posted, but Mercer usually has great movement. This cycle there have been 0 posted

For Medical College of Georgia, there were 10 acceptances off the waitlist posted in the first week of May, 2 more throughout May, and one final acceptance posted the 1st of june. So 13 in total. This cycle there has been 3 posted. This waitlist is also not ranked. I emailed and received a reply with zero information.
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Thank you so much for that information! I’ve been trying to be patient but may contact them and provide any information I get. Thanks for the info!
 
ReturnToMed said:
Schools aren't going to sue over their students getting poached because what if they want to poach someone. It opens up a tit for tat situation between schools. Only schools where a suit could come from is a state or low tier school.

We also recognize CTE isn't a real contract. It's like when a kid says they are "committed" to go play ball at a college. Until they sign a LOI it doesn't mean anything. Same thing with CTE except there are no contractual forms in the end to my knowledge.
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With all due respect, I think making the CTE selection is the equivalent of signing a LOI, and a contract could certainly be entered into electronically.

And yes, I agree that schools that want to engage in poaching wold never sue over it. As you have correctly pointed out, it would be lower ranked schools who determine if poaching becomes a thing where it is constantly losing committed students at the last minute who sue, not to collect money from a more prestigious school, but to stop the interference with the assembling of its entering class.

I'll believe it when I see it, but I just can't believe that there is such a huge difference between WL students at any school (including @gyngyn's 🙂), that schools would go there as opposed to avoiding it by limiting pulls off the WL to students who have not CTE'd elsewhere. I certainly do not want to speak for @gyngyn, but it seems to me that he is relying on past practice, where the schools could see where everyone was accepted and it was okay to pull from the WL until classes began at the other school, so it was done. Now, they don't know the identities of the other schools, but they do know CTE status. As a result, today, that is a proxy for "classes have begun at the other school," in the absence of anything else. It is a written commitment to attend the other school, and there is no reason for any school, from HMS on down, to mess with it as long as there is anyone on the WL who has not made such a commitment.
 
Ec310 said:
I might be wrong but ladies and gents... don’t we want people at the school we are waitlisted at to be poached, which would then free up more seats?
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Actually, assuming you have not CTE'd anywhere, you want schools to skip over anyone on their WL who is CTE elsewhere and go right to you! You want people at the school you are waitlisted at to fail to convert their PTE to CTE at the deadline (either because they were holding multiple acceptances or because they were pulled from a WL before they made the CTE election), thereby creating the spot for you. If schools are not honoring CTEs, there could be lots of folks on the WL with you who have CTE'd elsewhere that you might be competing with for a call. 🙂
 
Hemelovr said:
POACH POACH POACH POACH!
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Adcoms seeing potential students post CTE deadlines
266437
 
KnightDoc said:
Actually, assuming you have not CTE'd anywhere, you want schools to skip over anyone on their WL who is CTE elsewhere and go right to you! You want people at the school you are waitlisted at to fail to convert their PTE to CTE at the deadline (either because they were holding multiple acceptances or because they were pulled from a WL before they made the CTE election), thereby creating the spot for you. If schools are not honoring CTEs, there could be lots of folks on the WL with you who have CTE'd elsewhere that you might be competing with for a call. 🙂
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Sorry but reading your CTE filled post gave me CTE 😆
 
SecretWombat said:
Maybe I'm in the minority here but, can we... like.. simmer down with the legal talk, please. Not really too concerned about contracts and who may or may not get sued.
I'm just trying to get into school.
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Sorry; I wasn't trying to turn this into a law forum. I was just trying to point out why I thought, based on my interpretation of how the traffic rules were supposed to work this year, that anyone who CTEs will not be taken off anyone else's WL, so they might as well withdraw, thereby, hopefully, creating an opportunity for you. 🙂 The legal mumbo jumbo was just to support my theory!
 
KnightDoc said:
Sorry; I wasn't trying to turn this into a law forum. I was just trying to point out why I thought, based on my interpretation of how the traffic rules were supposed to work this year, that anyone who CTEs will not be taken off anyone else's WL, so they might as well withdraw, thereby, hopefully, creating an opportunity for you. 🙂 The legal mumbo jumbo was just to support my theory!
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There used to be traffic rules. They were rules that schools and applicants were expected to follow.
They are no more. I wish there were still traffic rules!
 
KnightDoc said:
I think making the CTE selection is the equivalent of signing a LOI, and a contract could certainly be entered into electronically.
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And you are right! LOI's have never had any meaning.
That's why they are called pillow talk. They are fervently uttered, forgotten on the morn...
 
KnightDoc said:
With all due respect, I think making the CTE selection is the equivalent of signing a LOI, and a contract could certainly be entered into electronically.
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I think you're exactly right that utilizing the CTE tool is the equivalent of signing an LOI. Thing is, LOIs by definition are not enforceable contracts (and include language to that effect!), but merely indicate the "intent" of the parties. No one is getting sued over the CTE tool.
 
Nym.Pseudo said:
I think you're exactly right that utilizing the CTE tool is the equivalent of signing an LOI. Thing is, LOIs by definition are not enforceable contracts (and include language to that effect!), but merely indicate the "intent" of the parties. No one is getting sued over the CTE tool.
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I would like to note that the LOI in college athletics is an actual contract and enforceable. The CTE is not a contract as it is not enforceable to our knowledge. I don't mean the LOIs people send so people get off waitlists. Those don't mean anything from what I can tell.
 
I've had a run of night shifts, which has been great, because I know adcoms don't work overnight. So now instead of refreshing my email like 200 times throughout the day and being disappointed each time, I can just open it when I wake up to go to work and be disappointed once. tapshead.png
 
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