2019-2020 Central Florida

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snowmonkey1023 said:
I was told that I was in the top 1/3 of the waitlist. Is it possible to be dropped lower on the waitlist as more interviewees from later interview dates are filed on this list throughout the cycle?
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I doubt that. If they told you top 1/3, that's where you are, and, if the past is a guide, I think that means they are signalling that you have a good chance of ultimately getting an A, unless something crazy happens with their yield. They know, based on everything they have seen over many years, where you fit (A, R, or what third you are on the WL). I just can't believe they would tell you one thing and then change it later. In any event, what's the difference between bottom of the top 1/3 and top of the next 1/3? 🙂
 
The following pertains once the interview season is over and the Not Yet Accepted List (Wait List) with regard to the thirds and sixths. We will likely end up with a final WL of about 240. Based on our history if you are in:
- the top 80 you almost absolutely guaranteed an offer before we matriculate in late July
- the middle 80 your chances begin to diminish greatly. This area has been constricting slowly so that those in the upper half (top 1/6) of this area are more likely to receive an offer that those in the bottom half (lower 1/6) the where chances have become more remote each year.
- lower 80 your chances are not good at all.

Remember that during interview season the committee admits from that list almost weekly. Each week that the committee meets they will vote on about 16 applicants who recently interviewed. The committee vote total inserts each individual applicant somewhere on the NYAL some near the top, middle and lower areas. At the end of the meeting the committee will review the NYAL and select ~6 for from the total list at each meeting. Those 6 will come from the upper portion of the overall list (top 1/6?). This produces an upward drift to those on the list that mostly affects everyone on the list. Taking applicants off the top produces a general upward drift to this list. So this is a "living" list whereby someone interviewed in a previous week may gain an acceptance in a later week during the interview season. The only "wild card" in all of this is how many of those interviewed will withdraw over time.

Dividing this overall list into upper, middle, and lower sections help us to convey the chances of an admissions offer to applicants. Dividing those into halves (1/6th's) helps us to refine those chances and essentially helps us to more accurately predict likelihood and timing of that offer, or not, over time. Once the interview season is over there are no additions to the list, only subtractions by way of admissions offers or by the decisions of other applicants to withdraw. By watching this list each year we pretty accurately predict the final outcome based on position on the list. Once the committee is done with interviews in late March and there are no additions we can generally predict today that those in the:
- Upper 1/3 - generally guaranteed an offer at some point over the summer prior to matriculation. The upper 1/6 and lower 1/6 of this area will both get an offer, the only difference is the timing. Upper 1/6 gets an offer before lower 1/6. In the last couple of years there have been instances when 1-2 may not have received an offer that were in the lower 1/6.
- Middle 1/3 - This is where upper and lower 1/6 matter. Based on the above you see that there has been some constriction where we have not fully accepted those in the lower half of the upper one third (lower 1/6 of upper 1/3). If that is true acceptance from the middle 1/3 is not happening. You must be in the upper 1/6 of this area to probably have a real chance. Those in the lower 1/6 are in serious jeopardy of a non-offer.
- Lower 1/3 - If we do not completely exhaust the populations of the upper and middle 1/3, we will not be in a position to make any offers to any applicants in the area. So upper 1/6 and lower 1/6 do not matter.

To answer the above question: If I am in the upper 1/3 can I drop lower? It is not likely. As future interviewees are inserted on the list based on their committee vote total, most of them will likely receive a lower total and be inserted lower on the list. Constant admission off the top each week will likely cause you to have an upward drift or at least keep you static.

The above generally provides us with the information to send out our ~monthly update to applicant who are currently on the NYAL.

Over the interview season we will typically interview about 450. The committee will normally admit 170-180 during the interview season and over the course of the application season we will make an acceptance offer to about 240 applicants. I hope that this helps.
 
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REL said:
The following pertains once the interview season is over and the Not Yet Accepted List (Wait List) with regard to the thirds and sixths. We will likely end up with a final WL of about 240. Based on our history if you are in:
- the top 80 you almost absolutely guaranteed an offer before we matriculate in late July
- the middle 80 your chances begin to diminish greatly. This area has been constricting slowly so that those in the upper half (top 1/6) of this area are more likely to receive an offer that those in the bottom half (lower 1/6) the where chances have become more remote each year.
- lower 80 your chances are not good at all.

Remember that during interview season the committee admits from that list almost weekly. Each week that the committee meets they will vote on about 16 applicants who recently interviewed. The committee vote total inserts each individual applicant somewhere on the NYAL some near the top, middle and lower areas. At the end of the meeting the committee will review the NYAL and select ~6 for from the total list at each meeting. Those 6 will come from the upper portion of the overall list (top 1/6?). This produces an upward drift to those on the list that mostly affects everyone on the list. Taking applicants off the top produces a general upward drift to this list. So this is a "living" list whereby someone interviewed in a previous week may gain an acceptance in a later week during the interview season. The only "wild card" in all of this is how many of those interviewed will withdraw over time.

Dividing this overall list into upper, middle, and lower sections help us to convey the chances of an admissions offer to applicants. Dividing those into halves (1/6th's) helps us to refine those chances and essentially helps us to more accurately predict likelihood and timing of that offer, or not, over time. Once the interview season is over there are no additions to the list, only subtractions by way of admissions offers or by the decisions of other applicants to withdraw. By watching this list each year we pretty accurately predict the final outcome based on position on the list. Once the committee is done with interviews in late March and there are no additions we can generally predict today that those in the:
- Upper 1/3 - generally guaranteed an offer at some point over the summer prior to matriculation. The upper 1/6 and lower 1/6 of this area will both get an offer, the only difference is the timing. Upper 1/6 gets an offer before lower 1/6. In the last couple of years there have been instances when 1-2 may not have received an offer that were in the lower 1/6.
- Middle 1/3 - This is where upper and lower 1/6 matter. Based on the above you see that there has been some constriction where we have not fully accepted those in the lower half of the upper one third (lower 1/6 of upper 1/3). If that is true acceptance from the middle 1/3 is not happening. You must be in the upper 1/6 of this area to probably have a real chance. Those in the lower 1/6 are in serious jeopardy of a non-offer.
- Lower 1/3 - If we do not completely exhaust the populations of the upper and middle 1/3, we will not be in a position to make any offers to any applicants in the area. So upper 1/6 and lower 1/6 do not matter.

To answer the above question: If I am in the upper 1/3 can I drop lower? It is not likely. As future interviewees are inserted on the list based on their committee vote total, most of them will likely receive a lower total and be inserted lower on the list. Constant admission off the top each week will likely cause you to have an upward drift or at least keep you static.

The above generally provides us with the information to send out our ~monthly update to applicant who are currently on the NYAL.

Over the interview season we will typically interview about 450. The committee will normally admit 170-180 during the interview season and over the course of the application season we will make an acceptance offer to about 240 applicants. I hope that this helps.
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Thank you so much for breaking that down!
 
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REL said:
I will address the clinical partnership issue like I did in last year's thread. The short answer to all of this is the MATCH list. We have compiled the last 2-3 years of matches into specialties based on the individual Florida MD school match lists. Looking specifically at the nine traditionally most difficult and considered high-level specialties UCF and UM come out on top. We also have been building residency positions over the last 3 years and will have the final ~200 of 650 residencies open in the next two years. This does not count the residencies also brought by our Lake Nona VA and Nemours partners. More to follow (MTF).
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Sorry for the delay in my promised response: This is a question and my answer that was posted in March 2019 in last year's SDN thread. I hope that this is helpful.

"Question: Excuse my ignorance, but a quick question for any current students or students that attended interview this cycle. I've heard "whispers" of UCF burning bridges with ORMC and Florida Hospital (Advent Health now, I guess) so their current relationship isn't the best. What would that mean for a new matriculant to the school?

Also, any updated news about the estimated completion time for the Hospital?"


"Response: There is a long and a short answer. The short answer is that the administrators at ORMC and AH simply could not play together for the good of the population of Orlando. Both wanted to work with the COM, but neither would consent to work with the other. Let me be very plain that the physicians in both systems are sick that their "leaders" have made this decision to not work together for the third year clerkships. The Docs in both systems see great value in our relationship and definitely want to see our students in the 4th year and their residencies. Note that we all knew that this was coming and the COM has been developing relationships with multiple teaching hospitals to support our students during their clerkship years. This includes multiple HCA hospitals as well as our two strong partners here in Lake Nona (Nemours Pediatric Hospital and the very large VA Hospital). ORMC and AH actually maintained their relationship with us until we were fully developed to support our students in the clerkship year before making this decision. Our new UCF Hospital will open here in Lake Nona at the end of 2020 and will also become a hospital to train our students."
 
REL said:
Sorry for the delay in my promised response: This is a question and my answer that was posted in March 2019 in last year's SDN thread. I hope that this is helpful.

"Question: Excuse my ignorance, but a quick question for any current students or students that attended interview this cycle. I've heard "whispers" of UCF burning bridges with ORMC and Florida Hospital (Advent Health now, I guess) so their current relationship isn't the best. What would that mean for a new matriculant to the school?

Also, any updated news about the estimated completion time for the Hospital?"


"Response: There is a long and a short answer. The short answer is that the administrators at ORMC and AH simply could not play together for the good of the population of Orlando. Both wanted to work with the COM, but neither would consent to work with the other. Let me be very plain that the physicians in both systems are sick that their "leaders" have made this decision to not work together for the third year clerkships. The Docs in both systems see great value in our relationship and definitely want to see our students in the 4th year and their residencies. Note that we all knew that this was coming and the COM has been developing relationships with multiple teaching hospitals to support our students during their clerkship years. This includes multiple HCA hospitals as well as our two strong partners here in Lake Nona (Nemours Pediatric Hospital and the very large VA Hospital). ORMC and AH actually maintained their relationship with us until we were fully developed to support our students in the clerkship year before making this decision. Our new UCF Hospital will open here in Lake Nona at the end of 2020 and will also become a hospital to train our students."
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KnightDoc said:
This is very encouraging as far as residencies go, but, as you know, really does not address the concerns regarding the rotations, especially since the students comprising your past 2-3 years of matches had the benefit of training at Orlando Health and Advent. I am hoping this resolves itself in a few years when it's my turn to apply. How legit are the concerns expressed in the recent Orlando Sentinel article regarding the quality of training at HCA facilities, and what, if anything is being done to address them in the short term?
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@REL -- thank you very much for responding at all. I for one very much appreciate your level of engagement with us and the degree of transparency you provide us. I haven't seen anything close from anyone else in your position, at least not on SDN! 🙂

I also think everyone here with any interest in UCF totally gets that the school is doing everything in its power to address the less than ideal situation it presently finds itself in regarding clinical rotations. My question above, though, remains. Specifically, how legit are the criticisms in the newspaper article regarding the quality of training provided at HCA hospitals? While I am sure any deficiencies will be addressed at the new facility where the school will have significant influence, is it really an issue at other HCA facilities, and, if so, what, if anything, is being done to address it, or is it just not as big a deal in the scheme of things as the article makes it appear?
 
KnightDoc said:
@REL -- thank you very much for responding at all. I for one very much appreciate your level of engagement with us and the degree of transparency you provide us. I haven't seen anything close from anyone else in your position, at least not on SDN! 🙂

I also think everyone here with any interest in UCF totally gets that the school is doing everything in its power to address the less than ideal situation it presently finds itself in regarding clinical rotations. My question above, though, remains. Specifically, how legit are the criticisms in the newspaper article regarding the quality of training provided at HCA hospitals? While I am sure any deficiencies will be addressed at the new facility where the school will have significant influence, is it really an issue at other HCA facilities, and, if so, what, if anything, is being done to address it, or is it just not as big a deal in the scheme of things as the article makes it appear?
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I will look more into this to give you as informed a response that I can provide. I want check the pulse of the student body and also have some conversations with administration. As you probably know new things and change always creates some form of misinformation and tension. I suspect that there is some factual information the article mixed with information that came from those who "thought that they knew more than they did" or repeating things that they heard from others. We can watch this same scenario playing out nationally today in the news media. I call it sensationalism of the press; they have forgotten that they are to report the news, not tell us how to think.
 
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REL said:
The following pertains once the interview season is over and the Not Yet Accepted List (Wait List) with regard to the thirds and sixths. We will likely end up with a final WL of about 240. Based on our history if you are in:
- the top 80 you almost absolutely guaranteed an offer before we matriculate in late July
- the middle 80 your chances begin to diminish greatly. This area has been constricting slowly so that those in the upper half (top 1/6) of this area are more likely to receive an offer that those in the bottom half (lower 1/6) the where chances have become more remote each year.
- lower 80 your chances are not good at all.

Remember that during interview season the committee admits from that list almost weekly. Each week that the committee meets they will vote on about 16 applicants who recently interviewed. The committee vote total inserts each individual applicant somewhere on the NYAL some near the top, middle and lower areas. At the end of the meeting the committee will review the NYAL and select ~6 for from the total list at each meeting. Those 6 will come from the upper portion of the overall list (top 1/6?). This produces an upward drift to those on the list that mostly affects everyone on the list. Taking applicants off the top produces a general upward drift to this list. So this is a "living" list whereby someone interviewed in a previous week may gain an acceptance in a later week during the interview season. The only "wild card" in all of this is how many of those interviewed will withdraw over time.

Dividing this overall list into upper, middle, and lower sections help us to convey the chances of an admissions offer to applicants. Dividing those into halves (1/6th's) helps us to refine those chances and essentially helps us to more accurately predict likelihood and timing of that offer, or not, over time. Once the interview season is over there are no additions to the list, only subtractions by way of admissions offers or by the decisions of other applicants to withdraw. By watching this list each year we pretty accurately predict the final outcome based on position on the list. Once the committee is done with interviews in late March and there are no additions we can generally predict today that those in the:
- Upper 1/3 - generally guaranteed an offer at some point over the summer prior to matriculation. The upper 1/6 and lower 1/6 of this area will both get an offer, the only difference is the timing. Upper 1/6 gets an offer before lower 1/6. In the last couple of years there have been instances when 1-2 may not have received an offer that were in the lower 1/6.
- Middle 1/3 - This is where upper and lower 1/6 matter. Based on the above you see that there has been some constriction where we have not fully accepted those in the lower half of the upper one third (lower 1/6 of upper 1/3). If that is true acceptance from the middle 1/3 is not happening. You must be in the upper 1/6 of this area to probably have a real chance. Those in the lower 1/6 are in serious jeopardy of a non-offer.
- Lower 1/3 - If we do not completely exhaust the populations of the upper and middle 1/3, we will not be in a position to make any offers to any applicants in the area. So upper 1/6 and lower 1/6 do not matter.

To answer the above question: If I am in the upper 1/3 can I drop lower? It is not likely. As future interviewees are inserted on the list based on their committee vote total, most of them will likely receive a lower total and be inserted lower on the list. Constant admission off the top each week will likely cause you to have an upward drift or at least keep you static.

The above generally provides us with the information to send out our ~monthly update to applicant who are currently on the NYAL.

Over the interview season we will typically interview about 450. The committee will normally admit 170-180 during the interview season and over the course of the application season we will make an acceptance offer to about 240 applicants. I hope that this helps.
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Thank you for this detailed breakdown! Two questions:

1. Since you said this is a somewhat moving list, is it possible to move from the middle tier and maybe into the upper tier by the time March comes around? Will this type of information be communicated through the monthly updates?

2. Also you said it's not likely that our position will drop because future interviewees will usually receive a lower total, is this behind the assumption that higher stat applicants are offered II's first?
 
snowdrop12 said:
Thank you for this detailed breakdown! Two questions:

1. Since you said this is a somewhat moving list, is it possible to move from the middle tier and maybe into the upper tier by the time March comes around? Will this type of information be communicated through the monthly updates?

-- Yes, the monthly updates will help applicants to understand their movement if you cross boundaries, ie, upper middle 1/3 to lower upper 1/3, or reconfirm that you are still in the same general sector.

2. Also you said it's not likely that our position will drop because future interviewees will usually receive a lower total, is this behind the assumption that higher stat applicants are offered II's first?

-- Higher stats will only take you so far, they will get you noticed, but what gets you the interview will be the other things that an applicant has consistently done and accomplished that will impress the committee to interview. There are many with very high stats that applied early who will likely not receive an interview. We give applicants 3 opportunities to submit updates for their application on our portal because we understand the interview season is long and applicants continue to contribute and achieve during this period. Ideally a combination of solid stats and solid and consistent motivations will get the call for an interview. Hopefully this clarifies.
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For students that have already been accepted/current students, is there advice for interview day? Anything you wish you knew before interviewing, any realizations you've had post-interview. Is it chill or anxiety-inducing, etc. Thanks so much in advance!
 
netflix007 said:
For students that have already been accepted/current students, is there advice for interview day? Anything you wish you knew before interviewing, any realizations you've had post-interview. Is it chill or anxiety-inducing, etc. Thanks so much in advance!
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Current student here! The interview is extremely casual, not stress-inducing at all. Its just a conversation and really the only thing to have an answer prepared for is a general idea of what you would do for your FIRE project. It doesnt have to be planned to the T just a general idea of some topic or field of interest and why its meaningful to you! So the more personal the better. It was very low stress and you get it done in the morning of the interview day so you have the rest of the day to relax and meet students/staff.
 
djsbaseball2014 said:
Current student here! The interview is extremely casual, not stress-inducing at all. Its just a conversation and really the only thing to have an answer prepared for is a general idea of what you would do for your FIRE project. It doesnt have to be planned to the T just a general idea of some topic or field of interest and why its meaningful to you! So the more personal the better. It was very low stress and you get it done in the morning of the interview day so you have the rest of the day to relax and meet students/staff.
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Thanks for taking the time to share that. That’s actually really useful to know, thank you so much!!!
 
Another question to current students 😢. I haven't been seeing a single positive thing about the HCA affiliation and just the HCA system in general. For current students rotating at HCA sites, what are your thoughts about this? Thanks in advance!
 
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netflix007 said:
Another question to current students 😢. I haven't been anything a single positive thing about the HCA affiliation and just the HCA system in general. For current students rotating at HCA sites, what are your thoughts about this? Thanks in advance!
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+1.

This and graded curriculum are two main negatives I’ve seen
 
Icebird said:
+1.

This and graded curriculum are two main negatives I’ve seen
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Graded curriculum is probably believed to be related to above average STEP scores which are probably related to above average matches for a school of its rank. It's probably thought to be medicine that is good for you 🙂, and I wouldn't look for it to change unless/until the school's rank materially increases.

Imagine what the reaction would be if the school went P/F and that led to lower STEP scores and less impressive matches! That then would be the new major negative you would see. 🙂
 
KnightDoc said:
Graded curriculum is probably believed to be related to above average STEP scores which are probably related to above average matches for a school of its rank. It's probably thought to be medicine that is good for you 🙂, and I wouldn't look for it to change unless/until the school's rank materially increases.

Imagine what the reaction would be if the school went P/F and that led to lower STEP scores and less impressive matches! That then would be the new major negative you would see. 🙂
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While I respect your perspective, “probably believed to be related” in regards to STEP scores isn’t really encouraging or convincing for the added stressors of graded pre-clinicals when increasing amounts of schools have gone P/F and common consensus among residency directors and SDNers are that clinical grade are the main metrics looked upon in residency matches along with STEP scores (which one may argue is really dependent on the individual itself as the actual content portion of medical education is standardized across the programs).

At least for me the graded pre clinicals is a big bummer from an otherwise great program.
 
Icebird said:
While I respect your perspective, “probably believed to be related” in regards to STEP scores isn’t really encouraging or convincing for the added stressors of graded pre-clinicals when increasing amounts of schools have gone P/F and common consensus among residency directors and SDNers are that clinical grade are the main metrics looked upon in residency matches along with STEP scores (which one may argue is really dependent on the individual itself as the actual content portion of medical education is standardized across the programs).

At least for me the graded pre clinicals is a big bummer from an otherwise great program.
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IDK, and @REL would certainly be the authority to ask on this. My perspective as an interested observer is that the school probably does it because it believes it is necessary in order for its students to be able to punch above their weight class a mere 10 years after the school admitted its first class. More established schools with higher rankings probably have more flexibility when it comes to things like this, while UCF probably feels like it has to do this for its students to have credibility in the marketplace, as evidenced by how its match list compares to all of the higher ranked, more established schools in FL.
 
I was hoping somebody could answer this question for me. I know that last year UCF acquired the Sanford Burnham Prebys building in Lake Nona in order to start the ground work on establishing a UCF cancer center. As masters students, we were all very excited about this. Since I graduated, I've been out of the loop a little bit. I was wondering what the timeline is like on this project, and if as an MD applicant it is something I could look forward to participating in.
 
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Sorry to those who got bad news today...
Were those pre II rejections?

I understand Dec interviewees were told the committee would meet today and call them tomorrow.
 
Icebird said:
+1.

This and graded curriculum are two main negatives I’ve seen
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To answer the question about HCA, yes it is unfortunate and isnt ideal but I think the thing to keep in mind is that this is potentially 3 years out for you guys before you start rotating. By that time the hospital we are building should be up and running and you might be able to start getting rotations through there. If not, admin has 3 years to figure out new hospitals and rotation sites which they WILL. The other important thing is you get to experience various different atmospheres t different hospitals, EMR'swork with different personalities and people, etc.

2.) Grading really isnt that big of a deal and let me tell you a few reasons why.

a.) Pre-clinical grades are of little relevance when it comes to applying for residency. The biggest factor is your Step 1 score so you do well on step nobody is going to sit and question the B you got in Biochem. And even if schools are P/F for M1/M2, they still are internally ranking you to some extent so that residency directors know where you stood in your class but again Step 1 is important.

b.) The grades that do matter are 3/4th year grades which most schools are on some form of grading, very few schools are true P/F for 3/4 years. Honors, high pass, pass is effectively the same as A, B and C so we arent that different than most schools.

c.) The graded system does not create a competitive environment. The classes arent curved, its on a set scale so 70-79 is a C, 80-89 is a B, 90+ is an A. There are no +'s or -'s for grades. Also we are tested on very high yield information, not a ton of minutia or irrelevant material. Our first exam this year (M1 year) had an 87% average on it.

d.) Edit* Also if a school is P/F for pre-clinical what does a residency director have to assume that a student got in a class with a P on their transcript? They have to assume a "C", how can they assume everyone with a P got an A or above. And again pre-clinical grades dont matter, Step 1 matters!

Don't sit here and worry about Step 1 score or match lists when it comes to deciding on a school. Match lists are a product of interest for that specific year which is going to vary drastically. You also can't assume everyone wants to match at Mass Gen for residency so some of the "smaller" residency programs may have been chosen out of preference for that specific person. Step 1 score is also a product of your work ethic, no school no matter if its Harvard or UCF is going to guarantee you a 260 on Step 1 you have to work on that yourself.

So in essence, go where you will be happiest and you vibe most with the students because medical school is HARD and you want to ensure that you're surrounded by a great group of people who are going to help build you up when you are struggling, not a class of gunners who arent going to care. Also money is extremely important to take into consideration and I can only speak for myself but UCF really had a great financial aid package for me and their financial aid office was very transparent!

Plz PM if you have further questions.
 
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djsbaseball2014 said:
To answer the question about HCA, yes it is unfortunate and isnt ideal but I think the thing to keep in mind is that this is potentially 3 years out for you guys before you start rotating. By that time the hospital we are building should be up and running and you might be able to start getting rotations through there. If not, admin has 3 years to figure out new hospitals and rotation sites which they WILL. The other important thing is you get to experience various different atmospheres t different hospitals, EMR'swork with different personalities and people, etc.

2.) Grading really isnt that big of a deal and let me tell you a few reasons why.

a.) Pre-clinical grades are of little relevance when it comes to applying for residency. The biggest factor is your Step 1 score so you do well on step nobody is going to sit and question the B you got in Biochem. And even if schools are P/F for M1/M2, they still are internally ranking you to some extent so that residency directors know where you stood in your class but again Step 1 is important.

b.) The grades that do matter are 3/4th year grades which most schools are on some form of grading, very few schools are true P/F for 3/4 years. Honors, high pass, pass is effectively the same as A, B and C so we arent that different than most schools.

c.) The graded system does not create a competitive environment. The classes arent curved, its on a set scale so 70-79 is a C, 80-89 is a B, 90+ is an A. There are no +'s or -'s for grades. Also we are tested on very high yield information, not a ton of minutia or irrelevant material. Our first exam this year (M1 year) had an 87% average on it.

d.) Edit* Also if a school is P/F for pre-clinical what does a residency director have to assume that a student got in a class with a P on their transcript? They have to assume a "C", how can they assume everyone with a P got an A or above. And again pre-clinical grades dont matter, Step 1 matters!

Don't sit here and worry about Step 1 score or match lists when it comes to decided on a school. Match lists are a product of interest for that specific year which is going to vary drastically. You also can't assume everyone wants to match at Mass Gen for residency so some of the "smaller" residency programs may have been chosen out of preference for that specific person. Step 1 score is also a product of your work ethic, no school no matter if its Harvard or UCF is going to guarantee you a 260 on Step 1 you have to work on that yourself.

So in essence, go where you will be happiest and you vibe most with the students because medical school is HARD and you want to ensure that you surrounded by a great group of people who are going to help build you up when you are struggling, not a class of gunners who arent going to care. Also money is extremely important to take into consideration and I can only speak for myself but UCF really had a great financial aid package for me and their financial aid office was very transparent!

Plz PM if you have further questions.
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Thank you for your input, extremely well said and thorough.
 
djsbaseball2014 said:
To answer the question about HCA, yes it is unfortunate and isnt ideal but I think the thing to keep in mind is that this is potentially 3 years out for you guys before you start rotating. By that time the hospital we are building should be up and running and you might be able to start getting rotations through there. If not, admin has 3 years to figure out new hospitals and rotation sites which they WILL. The other important thing is you get to experience various different atmospheres t different hospitals, EMR'swork with different personalities and people, etc.

2.) Grading really isnt that big of a deal and let me tell you a few reasons why.

a.) Pre-clinical grades are of little relevance when it comes to applying for residency. The biggest factor is your Step 1 score so you do well on step nobody is going to sit and question the B you got in Biochem. And even if schools are P/F for M1/M2, they still are internally ranking you to some extent so that residency directors know where you stood in your class but again Step 1 is important.

b.) The grades that do matter are 3/4th year grades which most schools are on some form of grading, very few schools are true P/F for 3/4 years. Honors, high pass, pass is effectively the same as A, B and C so we arent that different than most schools.

c.) The graded system does not create a competitive environment. The classes arent curved, its on a set scale so 70-79 is a C, 80-89 is a B, 90+ is an A. There are no +'s or -'s for grades. Also we are tested on very high yield information, not a ton of minutia or irrelevant material. Our first exam this year (M1 year) had an 87% average on it.

d.) Edit* Also if a school is P/F for pre-clinical what does a residency director have to assume that a student got in a class with a P on their transcript? They have to assume a "C", how can they assume everyone with a P got an A or above. And again pre-clinical grades dont matter, Step 1 matters!

Don't sit here and worry about Step 1 score or match lists when it comes to deciding on a school. Match lists are a product of interest for that specific year which is going to vary drastically. You also can't assume everyone wants to match at Mass Gen for residency so some of the "smaller" residency programs may have been chosen out of preference for that specific person. Step 1 score is also a product of your work ethic, no school no matter if its Harvard or UCF is going to guarantee you a 260 on Step 1 you have to work on that yourself.

So in essence, go where you will be happiest and you vibe most with the students because medical school is HARD and you want to ensure that you're surrounded by a great group of people who are going to help build you up when you are struggling, not a class of gunners who arent going to care. Also money is extremely important to take into consideration and I can only speak for myself but UCF really had a great financial aid package for me and their financial aid office was very transparent!

Plz PM if you have further questions.
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Just as you stated, Step 1 is a product of your work ethic, 3/4 years are the most important grades, and “Pre clinical grades are of little relevance.” Most of your points further supports the idea of P/F rather than having pre-clinical grades in the first place when your main metrics are going to be the board scores and rotation grades.

Residency directors thinking its “barely passing” wouldn’t matter if its of little relevance and if your rotation and board metrics show otherwise.

If someone needs the added push to get grades to help with their work ethic for pre-clinical years I’m sure they’ll fit perfectly but for a lot of people, myself included, graded pre-clinical will remain a negative due to an extra added stressor no matter the spin.
 
Icebird said:
Just as you stated, Step 1 is a product of your work ethic, 3/4 years are the most important grades, and “Pre clinical grades are of little relevance.” Most of your points further supports the idea of P/F rather than having pre-clinical grades in the first place when your main metrics are going to be the board scores and rotation grades.

Residency directors thinking its “barely passing” wouldn’t matter if its of little relevance and if your rotation and board metrics show otherwise.

If someone needs the added push to get grades to help with their work ethic for pre-clinical years I’m sure they’ll fit perfectly but for a lot of people, myself included, graded pre-clinical will remain a negative due to an extra added stressor no matter the spin.
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With all due respect, I think the most important point he made was that a "P" would be seen as a "C." That doesn't matter at Harvard, because, well, you're at Harvard, but that could be a problem at UCF. I also wonder whether the administration feels that the letter grading helps M1/2s focus, which helps the STEP scores, which everyone agrees are important?

I really don't think it's about spin; I think it's a consequence of going to a newish, low ranked school as it tries to establish itself by "stressing" its students to perform well, so they can match well, so the school can get itself recognized.

If you have a chance to attend a higher ranked school that doesn't do letter grades for pre-clinical, that might be a better fit for you. I seriously doubt you'll find a peer school that doesn't do letter grades that has a match list comparable to UCF's, however, so if that ends up being your choice, there very well might be a hidden cost on the back end to the lack of stress on the front end, which may or may not matter to you depending on your goals.
 
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KnightDoc said:
With all due respect, I think the most important point he made was that a "P" would be seen as a "C." That doesn't matter at Harvard, because, well, you're at Harvard, but that could be a problem at UCF. I also wonder whether the administration feels that the letter grading helps M1/2s focus, which helps the STEP scores, which everyone agrees are important?

I really don't think it's about spin; I think it's a consequence of going to a newish, low ranked school as it tries to establish itself by "stressing" its students to perform well, so they can match well, so the school can get itself recognized.

If you have a chance to attend a higher ranked school that doesn't do letter grades for pre-clinical, that might be a better fit for you. I seriously doubt you'll find a peer school that doesn't do letter grades that has a match list comparable to UCF's, however, so if that ends up being your choice, there very well might be a hidden cost on the back end to the lack of stress on the front end, which may or may not matter to you depending on your goals.
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But his other point (and common consensus) that pre-clinical grades are disregarded in comparison to other metrics could either be seen as contradicting or nullifying this view that adcoms will automatically see a P as a C; if its seen as minor detail/disregarded compared to STEP and clinical grades why should it even matterif they truly see it as a C if it isn’t even one of the major consideration points for matching/ if they even care?

Other Florida peer schools schools that have P/F are definitely not Harvard and they still have a good match list.

I agree with your 2nd point though, thats exactly what it is. Pre-clinical grades is how newly made schools try to go up in the ranking by putting the extra stressor on their matriculating class where certain individuals might not have the optimal work ethic to get the desired results alone.

Again, I genuinely enjoyed most aspects of the program but this is one of the negatives I’ll take into consideration at the end of the cycle.
 
Icebird said:
But his other point (and common consensus) that pre-clinical grades are disregarded in comparison to other metrics could either be seen as contradicting or nullifying this view that adcoms will automatically see a P as a C; if its seen as minor detail/disregarded compared to STEP and clinical grades why should it even matterif they truly see it as a C if it isn’t even one of the major consideration points for matching/ if they even care?

Other Florida peer schools schools that have P/F are definitely not Harvard and they still have a good match list.

I agree with your 2nd point though, thats exactly what it is. Pre-clinical grades is how newly made schools try to go up in the ranking by putting the extra stressor on their matriculating class where certain individuals might not have the optimal work ethic to get the desired results alone.

Again, I genuinely enjoyed most aspects of the program but this is one of the negatives I’ll take into consideration at the end of the cycle.
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I really think we agree with each other on both points. The letter grades are to give whatever advantage is available to whoever gets the As (as little as it may be), while that's just not a big consideration at a highly ranked school. The bigger deal is to do everything possible (including not allowing students to relax the first two years, while giving them access to all the tools available to succeed) to ensure high STEP scores.

My understanding is that UCF holds its own with USF, UM and UF when it comes to matches. I'm sure the administration does not believe this would be the case without the high STEP scores, and that one of the factors making them possible is letter grades in pre-clinical. If they did go to P/F, and that led to lower STEP scores (along with an inability to otherwise determine the quality of student at this low ranked, newish school), the resulting decline in the quality of their matches would be a bigger negative for the future you to consider at the end of your cycle. 🙂

For what it's worth, I really don't think UCF is trying to steal a bunch of students from T20s. It looks like it's trying to prepare its students to perform way better than would otherwise be expected from a 10-year old non-T50 school, and the results speak for themselves, graded M1/2 notwithstanding (or, more likely, because of it). Maybe things change in another 10-20 years when the school is more established and it has a reputation to fall back on, but I'll bet they think it's too risky now to seriously consider, especially since what they've been doing seems to be working well for them.

Personally, I'm more concerned with the whole HCA situation and the newspaper article than with being stressed to perform well. (Being stressed has served me well since high school. 🙂)
 
Rejected today, Pre-II. Absolutely crushing, as this is and has always been my top choice school. Good luck to those still waiting to hear back and congrats to those accepted.
 
97premed97 said:
Rejected today, Pre-II. Absolutely crushing, as this is and has always been my top choice school. Good luck to those still waiting to hear back and congrats to those accepted.
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I'm so sorry to hear that. Are you IS?
 
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Icebird said:
But his other point (and common consensus) that pre-clinical grades are disregarded in comparison to other metrics could either be seen as contradicting or nullifying this view that adcoms will automatically see a P as a C; if its seen as minor detail/disregarded compared to STEP and clinical grades why should it even matterif they truly see it as a C if it isn’t even one of the major consideration points for matching/ if they even care?

Other Florida peer schools schools that have P/F are definitely not Harvard and they still have a good match list.

I agree with your 2nd point though, thats exactly what it is. Pre-clinical grades is how newly made schools try to go up in the ranking by putting the extra stressor on their matriculating class where certain individuals might not have the optimal work ethic to get the desired results alone.

Again, I genuinely enjoyed most aspects of the program but this is one of the negatives I’ll take into consideration at the end of the cycle.
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I understand the "worry" about grades but at the end of the day, you are going to be a potential medical student, you are going to be working hard and you are going to want to do well, we are all Type A people. In my opinion the grades really don't matter and theoretically, EVERYONE could get an A... If it was grades and they were curving the class to set the average at a C then I would have an issue with that, but its really a battle with yourself to do well, you arent competing with other people.

Obviously no program is perfect, but if grades is really that big of an issue to you then I understand your frustration and wish you the best at whatever institution you chose to go to. I can only speak for myself and my experiences but thus far I have thoroughly enjoyed my experiences at UCF and the "grades" have really been an afterthought.

Now i need to get back to studying for my exam tomorrow, lol for which the grade I get on it is only important to me and my own pride
 
Would love any insight into what it means to not receive a pre-II rejection and still be on AORTA? Pretty sure UCF's interview season ends in February, and people receiving II's end of November were scheduling for January so........................ lol
 
bestestmench said:
Would love any insight into what it means to not receive a pre-II rejection and still be on AORTA? Pretty sure UCF's interview season ends in February, and people receiving II's end of November were scheduling for January so........................ lol
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I'm certainly not REL, but January does not equal February, so my insight would be that we're close, but we're not at the end yet, and you still have not received a R! 🙂

Exactly what insight are you looking for? Since they are pretty transparent and do send pre-II Rs, I'm sure you'll get one once that decision has been made, or once their interview season is over, whichever comes first., unless you have received better news before then.
 
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bestestmench said:
Would love any insight into what it means to not receive a pre-II rejection and still be on AORTA? Pretty sure UCF's interview season ends in February, and people receiving II's end of November were scheduling for January so........................ lol
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On the same boat right now.
 
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