Class of 2021 . . . how ya doin?

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batsenecal said:
It sounds like I want your school's on call schedule. Lol
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So thing are weird on our surgery services right now and therefore I wasnt sure if things used to be different. I asked another student and we did used to be on call all night for small animal surgery.

That said, they wouldn't necessarily make you come in at the normal time the next day if you were there really late.
 
finnickthedog said:
So thing are weird on our surgery services right now and therefore I wasnt sure if things used to be different. I asked another student and we did used to be on call all night for small animal surgery.

That said, they wouldn't necessarily make you come in at the normal time the next day if you were there really late.
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I was chatting to some people on our surgery rotation here and not only are they on call all night (actually all of the on call rotations I've been on have been all night), but if they stay extremely late for a surgery they are still expected at 8 AM (or maybe 7 AM???) rounds the next morning. One classmate was averaging like 2 hours of sleep on that rotation. It's brutal and not appropriate but has been like that for ages so I don't know that they're particularly interested or invested in fixing it
 
vetmedhead said:
I was chatting to some people on our surgery rotation here and not only are they on call all night (actually all of the on call rotations I've been on have been all night), but if they stay extremely late for a surgery they are still expected at 8 AM (or maybe 7 AM???) rounds the next morning. One classmate was averaging like 2 hours of sleep on that rotation. It's brutal and not appropriate but has been like that for ages so I don't know that they're particularly interested or invested in fixing it
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This sounds like out 15 or 16 hour overnight shifts in lg animal. I'm not sure how they get away with it or why they think it's a good idea for brain dead tired people to be treating patients with so little sleep. But apparently it's too much to ask for an intern or resident to work a 12 hr and us work a 12 hour where it's actually safer for our patients and us?🙄
 
vetmedhead said:
I was chatting to some people on our surgery rotation here and not only are they on call all night (actually all of the on call rotations I've been on have been all night), but if they stay extremely late for a surgery they are still expected at 8 AM (or maybe 7 AM???) rounds the next morning. One classmate was averaging like 2 hours of sleep on that rotation. It's brutal and not appropriate but has been like that for ages so I don't know that they're particularly interested or invested in fixing it
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Totally not appropriate. Pretty sure the intern who was on call when I was on surgery had day shifts that were starting at noon so there's no reason a student should be coming in at 7 (which is typically when we have to get here) if they were called in and didn't leave until like 5. Like even if I get called in at 10 and don't leave until 2 at least I get 5 hours to sleep which sucks but

I feel like our clinical hours policy that was instituted a year ago should make it harder for some of this to occur. Like they could still have us on call all night but if we did get called in and had to stay a long time there's a point at which they'd be required to give us a 10 hour break before our next shift (I think 16 hours in a 24 hour period?) and then also we have a maximum of 60 hours a week. But I also think to some extent that's dependent on students tracking their own hours and advocating for themselves if they're being pushed over hours.

I've definitely heard of students going over "maximum" hours especially when surgery rotation was still normal. But I've also heard of students stating they were over hours and actually getting to home as a result (albeit with certain clinicians being less than happy about it--but others being perfectly fine about it).
 
vetmedhead said:
I was chatting to some people on our surgery rotation here and not only are they on call all night (actually all of the on call rotations I've been on have been all night), but if they stay extremely late for a surgery they are still expected at 8 AM (or maybe 7 AM???) rounds the next morning. One classmate was averaging like 2 hours of sleep on that rotation. It's brutal and not appropriate but has been like that for ages so I don't know that they're particularly interested or invested in fixing it
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It's the same here. If you're on call, it's the whole night and you're responsible for your shift the next day.
 
MixedAnimals77 said:
This sounds like out 15 or 16 hour overnight shifts in lg animal. I'm not sure how they get away with it or why they think it's a good idea for brain dead tired people to be treating patients with so little sleep. But apparently it's too much to ask for an intern or resident to work a 12 hr and us work a 12 hour where it's actually safer for our patients and us?🙄
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I think it's because we *technically* split the shifts and most people don't end up actually working 16 hours shifts. Unless it's baby season, then everyone is there all 16 hours and it's hell. Only good thing to come of covid... LA overnights was my next rotation and I didn't have to do it since they kicked us out of the VTH :laugh:
 
batsenecal said:
It's the same here. If you're on call, it's the whole night and you're responsible for your shift the next day.
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Same with WSU. Neuro was nice and when I was there until 3 am, clinician sent both me and the resident home to sleep after morning rounds and just had us on call until we had to be back in at 4 pm. Surgery services... not so nice lol Got called in at 9 AM on Sunday, did not go home until 3 am on Monday. Three back to back surgeries. Still had to be in at 630 am for patient care. Literally fell asleep in rounds the next day.
 
Caiter92 said:
Same with WSU. Neuro was nice and when I was there until 3 am, clinician sent both me and the resident home to sleep after morning rounds and just had us on call until we had to be back in at 4 pm. Surgery services... not so nice lol Got called in at 9 AM on Sunday, did not go home until 3 am on Monday. Three back to back surgeries. Still had to be in at 630 am for patient care. Literally fell asleep in rounds the next day.
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I'm second on call sunday night for STS and we have a full day Monday since two people are out for NAVLE (so only 5 students that day). No way I'm getting sent home monday, no matter how late I'm here sunday if called in
 
batsenecal said:
I'm second on call sunday night for STS and we have a full day Monday since two people are out for NAVLE (so only 5 students that day). No way I'm getting sent home monday, no matter how late I'm here sunday if called in
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Oh yeah we get called in but have rounds in the morning you bet your cute butt we're there all day. One resident was working for 36 hours straight multiple times. It's inhumane. It happens. I don't see it changing any time soon
 
Coopah said:
I don't see it changing any time
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Our class of 2020 flat nearly started a revolt. In theory things have changed, but it's impossible to know if anything actually did change since COVID messed everything up
 
I think hour limits for students are good in theory and I do psupport them, but I also believe without a top down reconfiguration of hospital policies and expectations plus hiring of more technical staff, it just shifts the workload onto already overworked house officers and worsens an already bad situation for them. I do hope faculty and techs step up and take their share of the increased work that students usually do until budgets allowed to hire more staff, but I think we all know how that would go in reality. I don’t say all this as an excuse for making you all work such crazy long hours or to belittle your feelings of frustration, just to point out that it sucks for everyone and we really need to change how we do things as a whole to make work life better for everyone, vet students and house officers both.
 
JaynaAli said:
I think hour limits for students are good in theory and I do psupport them, but I also believe without a top down reconfiguration of hospital policies and expectations plus hiring of more technical staff, it just shifts the workload onto already overworked house officers and worsens an already bad situation for them. I do hope faculty and techs step up and take their share of the increased work that students usually do until budgets allowed to hire more staff, but I think we all know how that would go in reality. I don’t say all this as an excuse for making you all work such crazy long hours or to belittle your feelings of frustration, just to point out that it sucks for everyone and we really need to change how we do things as a whole to make work life better for everyone, vet students and house officers both.
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1000% agree
 
JaynaAli said:
I think hour limits for students are good in theory and I do psupport them, but I also believe without a top down reconfiguration of hospital policies and expectations plus hiring of more technical staff, it just shifts the workload onto already overworked house officers and worsens an already bad situation for them. I do hope faculty and techs step up and take their share of the increased work that students usually do until budgets allowed to hire more staff, but I think we all know how that would go in reality. I don’t say all this as an excuse for making you all work such crazy long hours or to belittle your feelings of frustration, just to point out that it sucks for everyone and we really need to change how we do things as a whole to make work life better for everyone, vet students and house officers both.
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The residents, clinicians, and interns all work ridiculously hard at my school. The surgical residents especially. I was so exhausted after my surgery rotation, but my surgery rotation was 2 weeks, not 3 years. I felt so bad for these residents who had to get called multiple times a night about patients/ potential surgeries coming in.
 
JaynaAli said:
I think hour limits for students are good in theory and I do psupport them, but I also believe without a top down reconfiguration of hospital policies and expectations plus hiring of more technical staff, it just shifts the workload onto already overworked house officers and worsens an already bad situation for them. I do hope faculty and techs step up and take their share of the increased work that students usually do until budgets allowed to hire more staff, but I think we all know how that would go in reality. I don’t say all this as an excuse for making you all work such crazy long hours or to belittle your feelings of frustration, just to point out that it sucks for everyone and we really need to change how we do things as a whole to make work life better for everyone, vet students and house officers both.
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We have a policy on hour limits for house officers too that I think was implemented around the same time as our student policy. I can't really say how how well its adhered to (since I'm neither a house officer nor friendly enough with any of them to discuss it) especially since its pretty recent but it does exist so thats a start at least?
 
Coopah said:
Just spent a solid 3 hours on the vetprep app. Noticed my percentage hadn't changed. Then I realized my number of completed questions hadn't changed. What the frick?
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sometimes on the app I have to log out and log back infor my numbers to change
 
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I don't know if I already mentioned this yesterday but my vetprep countdown is gone. Scary.
 
finnickthedog said:
When ICVA emails to let you know about their new practice assessments and expanded feedback option, but you're taking the NAVLE in a couple days and will not be subjecting yourself to a third practice exam so this is utterly useless to you now. :yeahright:
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A resident told me she took another practice test less than 12 hours before her navle because she was worried she was going to fail and I just can’t imagine doing that
 
Caiter92 said:
A resident told me she took another practice test less than 12 hours before her navle because she was worried she was going to fail and I just can’t imagine doing that
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That’s 10/10 something that first year me would’ve done.

the me in fourth year is just very tired
 
You want to know what's really depressing? I was asking a clinician today about her logic in choosing the type of fluid she was using and she was going on about how critical experience was and then there was a lull and she just looked at me and goes "you guys are at such a disadvantage".

I mean yeah we are, but we can't do anything about it. Sometimes I'm just wonder since I'm so far behind if I'll ever be competent. Half the time I feel like our clinicians are too busy to even teach us. It's really clear when they actually sit down and go through the case with us how much we're missing when they're rushing around just trying to get things done and we're just helping out as a tech.
 
Hey guys, I know the NAVLE scheduling was weird this year but when does it typically happen? I'd like to select a quieter rotation for when I have to take the exam. Thanks!
 
MOOSEygoosey said:
Hey guys, I know the NAVLE scheduling was weird this year but when does it typically happen? I'd like to select a quieter rotation for when I have to take the exam. Thanks!
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Normally it is roughly mid-November to mid-December
 
Coopah said:
You want to know what's really depressing? I was asking a clinician today about her logic in choosing the type of fluid she was using and she was going on about how critical experience was and then there was a lull and she just looked at me and goes "you guys are at such a disadvantage".

I mean yeah we are, but we can't do anything about it. Sometimes I'm just wonder since I'm so far behind if I'll ever be competent. Half the time I feel like our clinicians are too busy to even teach us. It's really clear when they actually sit down and go through the case with us how much we're missing when they're rushing around just trying to get things done and we're just helping out as a tech.
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We feel really sad that we can't spend more time teaching you guys. We're just inundated. I keep track of my hours spent working (at home and in the office) and the amount they've gone up during the pandemic is insane. On the surgery side of things, we're also getting called in just about 7 days a week, and often for multiple cases in a night whereas before it was 3-4 call ins a week (excluding weekends). We're running on empty right now.

One thing I'd recommend, that I've been trying to do with my students, is meet up with your clinicians at the end of the day and chat about your cases. I've had a few students ask me if they can chat, and I've had a few with complicated cases that I've asked to meet me. If you're willing to hang out until 7ish, there should be at least 5-10 minutes to go through a case with your clinicians and discuss the decision-making process throughout the case. I try to send students home as soon as I can, since they shouldn't be stuck at the hospital just because I am, but that's one potential solution so you're not just performing tech duties all day and learning nothing.
 
cdo96 said:
Tbh I hope they keep this extended window and rolling scores. I quite like this
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I'm not sure they'll keep the extended window since, like, 85% of people still scheduled November through December. :/
 
JaynaAli said:
@vetmedhead already got her results and took it like the first week? Seemed pretty quick...way quicker than before, that’s for sure.
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I got mine second week of October and took it last week of September, so maybe 3 week turnaround. I think they are probably shooting for a second week of the month score release timeframe for all of the tests the previous month. My guess is a 2-6 week wait depending on whether you took it early in the month or late
 
Okimo said:
We feel really sad that we can't spend more time teaching you guys. We're just inundated. I keep track of my hours spent working (at home and in the office) and the amount they've gone up during the pandemic is insane. On the surgery side of things, we're also getting called in just about 7 days a week, and often for multiple cases in a night whereas before it was 3-4 call ins a week (excluding weekends). We're running on empty right now.

One thing I'd recommend, that I've been trying to do with my students, is meet up with your clinicians at the end of the day and chat about your cases. I've had a few students ask me if they can chat, and I've had a few with complicated cases that I've asked to meet me. If you're willing to hang out until 7ish, there should be at least 5-10 minutes to go through a case with your clinicians and discuss the decision-making process throughout the case. I try to send students home as soon as I can, since they shouldn't be stuck at the hospital just because I am, but that's one potential solution so you're not just performing tech duties all day and learning nothing.
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I sympathize so much with you guys because you're taking the brunt of the workload and the subsequent consequences. A lot of my clinicians are running themselves ragged trying to get everything done and teach at the same time. Some make sure they take a second and teach, which is honestly the best little moments I have in my life right now and they're amazing and wonderful.

I always try to follow up on my cases and have discussions with the doctors unfortunately we get kicked out at a certain time so we don't overlap with other students. It depends on the rotation. You bet when I was working 80 weeks in ortho I was learning loads. But sometimes I ask to chat with the clinicians and they have three other cases they're trying to juggle and they just can't. I get it, it's not their fault. But it does make me think I won't be remotely prepared when I go into the real world. Because they don't have the time to teach me, and it's not their fault.
 
I am destined to be the student where appointments either cancel/don't show/don't go forward with any sort of treatment, or the patient dies. I have 0 in between.
 
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