GGoats ThWWee: Here It GGoats Again - GAME THREAD

[WildZoo]

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I will be back to argue more with AM shortly 🙂

 

[WildZoo]

Naturally, the one day I'm around and can tally, no one's voting

I'm voting now!!!

vote vampy

 

[vampyrica]

Why is genny neutral?

as opposed to a solid town read? idk, same reason as clem i suppose. can never be too sure

 

[WildZoo]

1. Greedy's point about PSV not switching her vote to dubz even though it would have made sense for her to do so.

Nope. See my post about PSV here
PSV had no reason to switch to me, it would not have made sense for her to do so in the way Greedy implied because she was not following the vote train around, and she was (apparently, though I know this can't be confirmed) not on thread at the time my wagon took off.

2. when genny first brought up seeing PSV and Lissa visiting KJQ and dubz's initial reaction was to jump on Lissa instead of PSV, even with everyone else questioning PSV

I was questioning both. I did not "jump on lissa", I wasn't pushing her hard, I voted for her while I asked some questions, I processed her answers, I unvoted her. As previously stated, I don't like runaway bandwagons without any resistance, it kills our ability to get information, it's part of the reason I was resistant to voting for mads. I felt I was doing my due diligence in working through things.

No reason for me to make myself stand out like that as a wolf, I wasn't going to save PSV.

3. a lot of dubz's points in the current discussion with AM (I'll admit I skimmed some of them, so may have missed something) seem to focus on "if I was a wolf, I wouldn't do this". How do we know she wouldn't? It seems entirely possible to me that she could have chosen to kill samac because that would seem out of character for dubz and it might lead us to clear her. Even with the PSV thing too - her argument is that she would have guided PSV better after genny's accusation by telling her to claim sleepwalker. Would she even have had time to tell PSV what to say? Are we sure she wouldn't have let PSV become a sacrificed packmate in an effort to protect the remaining wolves?

When AM's arguments focus on "This happened therefore Dubz is a wolf" then my responses are going to be a lot of "Except I wouldn't have done that if I were a wolf." I can't make a case for villagey actions for things I didn't do. So when AM says samac died because wolf!Dubz would have killed her, part of my argument is going to be that I wouldn't have done that because I wouldn't have done that. The other part of my argument is that samac was a good kill for anyone, but that should be self evident because as long as PSV was converted n0, which is the general thread consensus, she was cleared by her flip.

4. Pretty much everyone else has done something or said something that makes it clear they're town (ex. genny's n1 claim, mkg shooting PSV, AM and the unconvertable mp3, etc.). I haven't seen that from dubz. Have I seen things potentially suggesting she is town? Yes. Could she be trying to get us to think she's town? Also yes. She's an experienced player. I don't doubt she knows what to say to seem towny even if she isn't.

My bad for not being mechanically cleared, I will try harder to get the clearing items next time

Still, pairing Zenge and samac for a PM is a villagey action and that is being discounted repeatedly

 

[vampyrica]

Backing up a bit, vampy came in within two minutes of Greedy's vote on PSV and posted this:






I *think* the above was more likely directed at PSV because of the last line but it came right after vampy's post so unsure. In any case, vampy said no thanks and went back to clem.



A bit later...







I just find that...interesting

vampy was henceforth focused on clem and how hard he is to read, until fruit made this post




She then did indeed vote for me after the chatter increased around my name, and fruit/greedy/kay followed soon after.


Tbh I think this with the backseat defenses of PSV on d2 and holding her vote but not showing much work in evaluating where she was leaning towards putting it is a real reason to be scumreading vampy.

this is actually gross and incredibly disappointing

 

[WildZoo]

as opposed to a solid town read? idk, same reason as clem i suppose. can never be too sure

You think wolf!genny outted PSV?

 

[WildZoo]

this is actually gross and incredibly disappointing

How about you focus on refuting the argument instead of making value judgments on my play 🙂

 

[Animal Midwife]

as opposed to a solid town read? idk, same reason as clem i suppose. can never be too sure

Never can be too sure about what?

 

[Zenge142]

1. Greedy's point about PSV not switching her vote to dubz even though it would have made sense for her to do so.
2. when genny first brought up seeing PSV and Lissa visiting KJQ and dubz's initial reaction was to jump on Lissa instead of PSV, even with everyone else questioning PSV
3. a lot of dubz's points in the current discussion with AM (I'll admit I skimmed some of them, so may have missed something) seem to focus on "if I was a wolf, I wouldn't do this". How do we know she wouldn't? It seems entirely possible to me that she could have chosen to kill samac because that would seem out of character for dubz and it might lead us to clear her. Even with the PSV thing too - her argument is that she would have guided PSV better after genny's accusation by telling her to claim sleepwalker. Would she even have had time to tell PSV what to say? Are we sure she wouldn't have let PSV become a sacrificed packmate in an effort to protect the remaining wolves?
4. Pretty much everyone else has done something or said something that makes it clear they're town (ex. genny's n1 claim, mkg shooting PSV, AM and the unconvertable mp3, etc.). I haven't seen that from dubz. Have I seen things potentially suggesting she is town? Yes. Could she be trying to get us to think she's town? Also yes. She's an experienced player. I don't doubt she knows what to say to seem towny even if she isn't.

1. No it wouldn't have. Go back and re-read the EOD. There's no real point in time where the votes where aligned in a way that it would have made sense for PSV to move her vote. I made the point here as well which is a counter argument to consider.

It’s not an invalid point, but playing devil’s advocate, she also didn’t move to Fruit to try and save Dubz

2. Her reaction wasn't to "jump on Lissa" as much as it was to question Lissa and get both players accounts and make an informed decision. Ultimately Dubz's opinion was that Lissa's story was more believable.

3. You're argument of "How do we know she wouldn't" is a two way street - "How do we know she would". Which is to say this isn't an argument at all.

4. With the exception of genny who's reveal led to PSV's ousting, none of the things you've listed are clearing. It's highly unlikely that MKG shot packmate PSV but not impossible. AM having an item that protects from conversion would be irrelevant if she was an OG wolf. You've listed 3 players you think are mechanically clear, and really only ~2 of those are really legitimate reasons to mechanically clear someone. And yet with 10 players left, the fact that ~2 players are mechanically unaligned from PSV, and Dubz isn't, is your rationale for an argument that Dubz is a wolf? What? How does that make sense. By that logic you also should be considered a wolf, because you also don't have anything mechanically unaligning you from PSV.

None of these 4 arguments hold much water.

Are you sure you want to stand by this statement:

There's just quite a bit of incriminating evidence against her rn.

?

 

[vampyrica]

You think wolf!genny outted PSV?

wdym?

 

[vampyrica]

How about you focus on refuting the argument instead of making value judgments on my play 🙂

how about you give me a second i’m in bed with a major stomach ache. just had to delete my response to respond to this

 

[WildZoo]

wdym?

Have you forgotten the entirety of day 2? What is happening right now?

 

[vampyrica]

give me an f-ing break, i’m sick and we’re 62 pages in.

 

[vampyrica]

i’m grabbing my laptop hold on.

 

[WildZoo]

how about you give me a second i’m in bed with a major stomach ache. just had to delete my response to respond to this

You can have as much time as you need, there is just never a reason to respond that way to me. I'm not attacking you, I'm playing the game. You talked about keeping things civil and non-toxic earlier, well calling a post "gross and disappointing" because you disagree with it isn't really in line with that.

 

[Animal Midwife]

AM having an item that protects from conversion would be irrelevant if she was an OG wolf.

Pause. What exactly are you saying here?

 

[supershorty]

BE CIVIL TO EACH OTHER OR TIME OUTS WILL OCCUR.

 

[WildZoo]

I don't want to get trapped in a loop here so I'll just end it here but, again, I do not have any interest in evaluating people's reactions PSV claim because she was partially playing in antispew by that point.

That was never my point but I will acquiesce to the end of that line of conversation.

That still doesn't line up because vamp didn't vote for PSV after said explanation.

Can't imagine why
Regardless, vamp tends to vote late, this has been stated many times, so I don't think that matters.

Not "literally anyone." Certain people have found her as village before even when she played like a sketchball before.

I don't understand your point here. I mean any wolf could have left Zenge alive for being wrong about mads. There also have only been two night kills, so this wasn't even a point I was making, you brought it up.

You argued that pairing samac and Zenge so they could talk privately isn't a villagey action. My point is that you're tunneled so you're unwilling to see any arguments in my favor.

dubz, I love you but hyperbole like this only makes me feel worse.

I love you too <3 I am trying to restrain myself from my more typical snark (partially because I want to prove that I can go head to head with you without it ruining the thread state) but that one slipped through tbh. Idk why it makes you feel worse given that is well within my meta though.

To actually answer your question, I have Zenge. So, one defender. Takes more than one person to prevent a misyeet. And it looks like genny isn't as into the idea of killing me now, but I wouldn't have known that yesterday, she was actively still talking about being suspicious of me.

Okay, I'm not going to argue that point since I don't know what post is being referred to and I genuinely don't care about mechanics. I was just echoing since Zenge said it to me.

👍

 

[supershorty]

Manual Playing Tickles Animal Midwife's Autism - Day 3 Tally

Dubz (2) - AM, Greedy
vampy (1) - Dubz

3/10 voting
Missing: 70% of the game

Vote closes today, 6/17 at 9 PM (~6.5 hours).

 

[Zenge142]

Pause. What exactly are you saying here?

I'm saying that having an item that prevents conversion, which could just as easily be available to wolves, isn't mechanically clearing. I see no reason a wolf couldn't pick the MP3 player, and we have no reason to suspect it isn't offered to wolves.

So the argument that you have an MP3 player and thus it's mechanically impossible for you to be a wolf isn't an argument based on logic.

And if the thread is going to claim that that does make sense, then I guess my advice to wolves would be to pick the MP3 player when it comes up because apparently people are arguing that it's impossible for wolves to possess without any evidence to support that.

And then using that argument, which is already flawed, to say since Dubz isn't mechanically cleared she's probably a wolf - is an incredibly flawed argument.

 

[WildZoo]

When mads was near guaranteed to be the only death D2. Before PSV got caught in the act. You could then have said "you were wrong about mads so why would you be right above me?" Extremely good spot to get paired with a scummy villager.

The cornering I'm referring to is people getting out of the POE thanks to a single item. Which, by extension, made you fall into it.

I am trying to see a wolf!Dubz perspective here because I know actual me did not feel like she was in a good spot lol

I didn't get the impression that people would go back to being okay with me if mads flipped village. You would have to ask others about that, though. I was in several POEs before the thread turned on mads (see how I almost died d1). I don't think that would have changed that drastically. As it stands I don't recall anyone saying "Oh huh, mads was village, I guess we were wrong about dubz."

 

[Zenge142]

I had forgotten about this but now that zenge mentions it yeah its right after gennys claim near the start of day 2

Why would you say this, when it's not there?

Why did you lie to me Greedy?

 

[GreedyBanger]

Unvote
Vote Vampy

 

[WildZoo]

It is at this point that I realize I missed a whole page (or more??) of posts

 

[GreedyBanger]

N0: postcard, free drink tickets, stilts

N1: 2 tin cans, easy button, opera glasses, MP3

How’d they work out for you

Oh well we did okay.

Good to know

I mean I guess it wasnt as direct as I remember but I think we both put 2 and 2 together

 

[Animal Midwife]

Regardless, vamp tends to vote late, this has been stated many times, so I don't think that matters.

She needs to stop doing that. Imagine if everyone voted for the first time when she did. Everything would always a bandwagon. I'm serious @vampyrica . I welcome playstyle difference but for this you need to start voting way earlier even if you change it later.

I don't understand your point here. I mean any wolf could have left Zenge alive for being wrong about mads. There also have only been two night kills, so this wasn't even a point I was making, you brought it up.

Two nks and one conversion. Regardless, my points are not just exclusively hinged on mads. It's just another part of the puzzle that fails to clear you.

Your argued that pairing samac and Zenge so they could talk privately isn't a villagey action. My point is that you're tunneled so you're unwilling to see any arguments in my favor.

I don't know how I can be considered tunneled when I just got here and it hasn't even been a single cycle.

I love you too <3 I am trying to restrain myself from my more typical snark (partially because I want to prove that I can go head to head with you without it ruining the thread state) but that one slipped through tbh. Idk why it makes you feel worse given that is well within my meta though.

I was asking a serious question and it was deflected to ATE. Which I don't understand if you see me as town and thus my questions as genuinely trying to solve you.

To actually answer your question, I have Zenge. So, one defender. Takes more than one person to prevent a misyeet. And it looks like genny isn't as into the idea of killing me now, but I wouldn't have known that yesterday, she was actively still talking about being suspicious of me.

Show of hands here.

Who will vote dubz today with little to no ambivalence?

Not just "scumread." Actually vote.

Say "yes" or "no." There is no "maybe."

If you say "maybe," I'm putting you under "no."

@mkg323 @Clem J @vampyrica @beans2020 @Lissarae06

 

[Animal Midwife]

I'm saying that having an item that prevents conversion, which could just as easily be available to wolves, isn't mechanically clearing. I see no reason a wolf couldn't pick the MP3 player, and we have no reason to suspect it isn't offered to wolves.

So the argument that you have an MP3 player and thus it's mechanically impossible for you to be a wolf isn't an argument based on logic.

And if the thread is going to claim that that does make sense, then I guess my advice to wolves would be to pick the MP3 player when it comes up because apparently people are arguing that it's impossible for wolves to possess without any evidence to support that.

And then using that argument, which is already flawed, to say since Dubz isn't mechanically cleared she's probably a wolf - is an incredibly flawed argument.

Do you think that happened?

 

[Zenge142]

Do you think that happened?

Probably not.

But I'm not going to say you're "mechanically clear" for possessing an item that prevents conversion.

Do you think we should consider any player who claims to possess the MP3 player as "mechanically clear"?

 

[Animal Midwife]

I am trying to see a wolf!Dubz perspective here because I know actual me did not feel like she was in a good spot lol

I didn't get the impression that people would go back to being okay with me if mads flipped village. You would have to ask others about that, though. I was in several POEs before the thread turned on mads (see how I almost died d1). I don't think that would have changed that drastically. As it stands I don't recall anyone saying "Oh huh, mads was village, I guess we were wrong about dubz."

I was saying you would say that. In the AU where PSV doesn't get caught and spew multiple people.

It's not something I can ask about today because a different sequence of events took place.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Probably not.

But I'm not going to say you're "mechanically clear" for possessing an item that prevents conversion.

Do you think we should consider any player who claims to possess the MP3 player as "mechanically clear"?

What do you mean probably not?

Do you think a noob wolf would announce the existence of conversion at the same time if not before when PSV herself was converted?

 

[vampyrica]

Backing up a bit, vampy came in within two minutes of Greedy's vote on PSV and posted this:

this is misinformation, i was on the thread for quite a while not "vampy came in within 2 minutes of Greedys vote". At 5:01pm I made my vote:

so i think i’m gonna. i’m feeling some type of way..

yeet WildZoo

At 5:31pm you quoted my response and made me feel icky about voting you

Damn that's cold given i just said I wouldn't be here, and you didn't even like...try to talk to me at all.

I don't recall you even mentioning me besides throwing me in your neutrals, what triggered the vote?

At 6:22pm, I return to the thread and retract my vote for you and gave you the benefit of the doubt, explained I never feel good about D1 votes.

sorry i was in a meeting, am back.

idk just feeling a little weird, i never feel good about my D1 votes (and i also forgor you were not going to be here) so given that i think it would be unfair to do that to you

unyeet WildZoo

I mentioned earlier in the day that I had a date arranged for that night and that I would be AFK. AT THE SAME EXACT TIME THAT I MAKE THE BELOW POST, GB VOTES PSV.

Unvote

Vote PSV

Consolidation nation

its date time, i will be mostly AFK. idk who to vote for this sucks

I refresh the page and give me response 2 MINUTES after he made his comment:

can someone explain the PSV votes? im not leaning either way on them rn but maybe im missing something?

GB responds:

Its a compromise vote for me. Its the only wagon one of my strong TRs is on that isn't in fact on another of them. You and Kay arn't voting at all which doesnt help. Pick a vote before date night so I can whip up support if I agree with it. As long as its not on MKG, you, Kay , Me, Fruit, Mads or Zenge

I respond:

i wanted to do clem but my read was shut down, voted dubz but she will be away and not have the chance to defend herself, so now i’m at a crossroads. i really don’t think its mads and i think fruit is being okay, im not scum reading him enough to feel good with a vote on him. i dont get the PSV vote at all. lissa has been gone, i dont support a vote on you either. same for beans

GB responds:

Ok well i fully explained my process on it and its consistent with my worldview previously expressed. Pick one of the other people not on my strike list and we will murder them instead, I don't feel strongly about you being scum

I go with my gut:

screw it.

yeet clem

**its also incredibly important to note that the leading wagon at that current moment in time, was mads, who i defended as town. after GB made the PSV vote, then all the other PSV votes came in.**

if i was scum and wanted to guarantee PSV live, why wouldnt i have ridden the mads wagon and just gone with everyone else? GB stated he trusted me, I could have easily tried to convince them both to come with me onto clem or encourage them to stay on mads or literally anyone else.

SAR drops the offical tally for that point in time at 7:46pm.

D1: An Officialish Tally or Something
Damn shorty usually makes these pretty or something doesn't she

Lissa (0) -
PSV (3) - fruit, Greedy, KJQ
fruit (3) - dubz, mkg, genny
Greedy (1) - Lissa
mads (3) - samac, Zenge, beans
beans (1) - Sakuraaa
dubz () -
Zenge () -
samac () - PSV
clem (1) - vampy

13/15
yeet close in ~1.25 hours

A tie?!?!

To address the "this is interesting actually". KJQ posts this at 7:57pm.

Scumlean
Lissa
PSV

Scum
samac
Dubz

Zenge responds:

Maybe there's one scum in here. Maybe...

But if you're suggesting this is where all the scum lives, you're woefully misguided.

I then respond:

what would you switch? i think i’d move lissa and psv out and put clem and sakura instead

im saying i would move lissa and psv out of scum lean and put clem and sakura instead. then i go back and respond:

or lissa and samac actually

saying i would move lissa and samac out of POE and keep psv instead of samac as i believed samac was more town and PSV this entire game and I mentioned that multiple times. i literally kept saying i dont think its samac, i dont think it's samac.

About 30 minutes to close, we get this tally. i am still on clem:

D1: An Officialish Tally or Something
Damn shorty usually makes these pretty or something doesn't she

Lissa (0) -
PSV (0) -
fruit (3) - dubz, mkg, genny
Greedy (1) - Lissa
mads (3) - samac, Zenge, beans
beans (1) - Sakuraaa
dubz () -
Zenge () -
samac (4) - PSV, KJQ, Greedy, fruit
clem (1) - vampy

13/15
Missing: @Clem J and @madrigal01
yeet close in ~30 minutes

i then make this comment in response to fruitsalad comment of "i think there's a wolf among PSV, samac, WZ, and genny. i think this is a hit."

why would i want to make a vote on you randomly out of nowhere, if samac was still in the lead and i could just gurantee her being yeeted and draw no further attention to myself? its because i did not believe samac was scum, and i was right so i stuck with my gut.

i’m down to make a vote on dubz if we wanna go in that direction. i still think losing clem wouldnt be the end of the world but thats just me

new tally, ~15 min to close (8:45pm)

D1: An Officialish Tally or Something
Damn shorty usually makes these pretty or something doesn't she

Lissa (0) -
PSV (0) -
fruit (3) - dubz, mkg, genny
Greedy (1) - Lissa
mads (3) - samac, Zenge, beans
beans (1) - Sakuraaa
dubz (2) - vampy, fruit
Zenge () -
samac (3) - PSV, KJQ, Greedy
clem () -

13/15
Missing: @Clem J and @madrigal01
yeet close in ~15 minutes

A tie?!?!

GB hops on after the tally is posted (8:46pm)

Unvote
Vote WZ

8:56pm

this is an absolute dumpster fire. i cant look

this is the final tally:

Manual Tallying Tickles Animal Midwife's Autism - D1 FINAL Tally

Lissa (0) -
PSV (0) -
fruit (5) - dubz, mkg, genny, samac, mads
Greedy (1) - Lissa
mads (2) - Zenge, beans
beans (1) - Sakuraaa
dubz (4) - vampy, fruit, Greedy, KJQ
Zenge () -
samac (1) - PSV
clem () -

14/15
@fruitsalad, you are in the lead!
Missing: @Clem J

Check your votes.

behold. the dumpster fire

 

[WildZoo]

Two nks and one conversion. Regardless, my points are not just exclusively hinged on mads. It's just another part of the puzzle that fails to clear you.

And I'm saying that one isn't relevant to me at all. If an argument can be applied to any wolf, then you can't use it as part of an argument against me specifically.

I don't know how I can be considered tunneled when I just got here and it hasn't even been a single cycle.

Have you taken anything I've said into consideration to see my point of view?

I was asking a serious question and it was deflected to ATE. Which I don't understand if you see me as town and thus my questions as genuinely trying to solve you.

I think you've seen before that people can get frustrated with you even when they think you're town. I am trying my best here but I am not a robot, I am tired, and I am not having a good game. This isn't an attempt at ATE, it's just the truth. So yeah, at the time when you asked if I had no defenders, that was kinda twisting the knife.

Show of hands here.

Who will vote dubz today with little to no ambivalence?

Not just "scumread." Actually vote.

Say "yes" or "no." There is no "maybe."

If you say "maybe," I'm putting you under "no."

@mkg323 @Clem J @vampyrica @beans2020 @Lissarae06

This should be interesting, but it's not getting at my point. People being willing to take my arguments into account today is not a solid thing I could bank on yesterday. I think to see my point you would do better to look at how I was positioned in POEs and conversations yesterday, before declaring I would have chosen to take samac out of the equation when there were other options.

 

[vampyrica]

She needs to stop doing that. Imagine if everyone voted for the first time when she did. Everything would always a bandwagon. I'm serious @vampyrica . I welcome playstyle difference but for this you need to start voting way earlier even if you change it later.

im sorry but no. i am not going to change the way i play and the way i feel comfortable doing things. if that means i should not play here anymore then so be it.

 

[vampyrica]

Who will vote dubz today with little to no ambivalence?

Not just "scumread." Actually vote.

Say "yes" or "no." There is no "maybe."

If you say "maybe," I'm putting you under "no."

@mkg323 @Clem J @vampyrica @beans2020 @Lissarae06

hm lets see, i vote yes and i look like im trying to self pres. i vote no and it looks like im trying to self pres.

oh well, no

 

[vampyrica]

this is misinformation, i was on the thread for quite a while not "vampy came in within 2 minutes of Greedys vote". At 5:01pm I made my vote:

At 5:31pm you quoted my response and made me feel icky about voting you

At 6:22pm, I return to the thread and retract my vote for you and gave you the benefit of the doubt, explained I never feel good about D1 votes.

I mentioned earlier in the day that I had a date arranged for that night and that I would be AFK. AT THE SAME EXACT TIME THAT I MAKE THE BELOW POST, GB VOTES PSV.


I refresh the page and give me response 2 MINUTES after he made his comment:

GB responds:

I respond:

GB responds:

I go with my gut:


**its also incredibly important to note that the leading wagon at that current moment in time, was mads, who i defended as town. after GB made the PSV vote, then all the other PSV votes came in.**

if i was scum and wanted to guarantee PSV live, why wouldnt i have ridden the mads wagon and just gone with everyone else? GB stated he trusted me, I could have easily tried to convince them both to come with me onto clem or encourage them to stay on mads or literally anyone else.

SAR drops the offical tally for that point in time at 7:46pm.

To address the "this is interesting actually". KJQ posts this at 7:57pm.

Zenge responds:

I then respond:

im saying i would move lissa and psv out of scum lean and put clem and sakura instead. then i go back and respond:

saying i would move lissa and samac out of POE and keep psv instead of samac as i believed samac was more town and PSV this entire game and I mentioned that multiple times. i literally kept saying i dont think its samac, i dont think it's samac.

About 30 minutes to close, we get this tally. i am still on clem:

i then make this comment in response to fruitsalad comment of "i think there's a wolf among PSV, samac, WZ, and genny. i think this is a hit."

why would i want to make a vote on you randomly out of nowhere, if samac was still in the lead and i could just gurantee her being yeeted and draw no further attention to myself? its because i did not believe samac was scum, and i was right so i stuck with my gut.

new tally, ~15 min to close (8:45pm)

GB hops on after the tally is posted (8:46pm)

8:56pm

this is the final tally:

behold. the dumpster fire

*more town than PSV not "more town and PSV"

 

[Animal Midwife]

And I'm saying that one isn't relevant to me at all. If an argument can be applied to any wolf, then you can't use it as part of an argument against me specifically.

? I'm not following.

If an argument is true for the whole playerlist and you are part of the playerlist why is not true for you?

(I disagree that it applies to everyone anyway but can disregard that here since it just semantics.)

Have you taken anything I've said into consideration to see my point of view?

Yes. And it keeps diverting into WIFOM rather than anything concrete. I need concrete. I can't solve this on "I wouldn't do X as a wolf" unless you can pull a previous game that proves this. Because I can think of examples for all of my accusations.

I think you've seen before that people can get frustrated with you even when they think you're town. I am trying my best here but I am not a robot, I am tired, and I am not having a good game. This isn't an attempt at ATE, it's just the truth. So yeah, at the time when you asked if I had no defenders, that was kinda twisting the knife.

Well, I'll avoid that in the future but I don't get any impression that you're being treated at all like how mads was.

This should be interesting, but it's not getting at my point. People being willing to take my arguments into account today is not a solid thing I could bank on yesterday. I think to see my point you would do better to look at how I was positioned in POEs and conversations yesterday, before declaring I would have chosen to take samac out of the equation when there were other options.

Why would you be up yesterday? It was always mads. Even with PSV outted, it was still mads.

 

[Zenge142]

What do you mean probably not?

Do you think a noob wolf would announce the existence of conversion at the same time if not before when PSV herself was converted?

If that did happen, on a scale of nibbling your knuckles to tickling the ivories (your molars), how much would you have swallowed your fist when you realized it, after subbing into the slot?

 

[Animal Midwife]

im sorry but no. i am not going to change the way i play and the way i feel comfortable doing things. if that means i should not play here anymore then so be it.

I'm giving you advice so people can understand your points stronger in the future but it's your life, not mine I guess.

 

[WildZoo]

this is misinformation, i was on the thread for quite a while not "vampy came in within 2 minutes of Greedys vote". At 5:01pm I made my vote:

You're misinterpreting what I was saying, I just meant you had posted within two minutes of the vote. Just stating for timeframe context because quotes don't come with timestamps.

if i was scum and wanted to guarantee PSV live, why wouldnt i have ridden the mads wagon and just gone with everyone else? GB stated he trusted me, I could have easily tried to convince them both to come with me onto clem or encourage them to stay on mads or literally anyone else.

I don't think you can reasonably say that you could vote for or encourage a vote on mads. It would have been wildly inconsistent with the rest of your play.

i literally kept saying i dont think its samac, i dont think it's samac.

Which again is a reason why it wouldn't have looked great for you to either jump on the samac wagon or just stand by and let her go over, especially when Zenge was vocally against the vote at the time as well.

why would i want to make a vote on you randomly out of nowhere, if samac was still in the lead and i could just gurantee her being yeeted and draw no further attention to myself? its because i did not believe samac was scum, and i was right so i stuck with my gut.

I have taken this into consideration, I just don't think it's clearing for the reasons stated above.

In a w!vampy world, PSV was gone, you would have looked suspicious for supporting the various wagons on people you'd already said you didn't think were wolfing, and no one was interested in Clem. So sitting on Clem would have done nothing to help and if the PSV wagon built back up, which it very well could have, you couldn't reasonably vote for any of the counters already on the board to try to save her. I was a great alternative in that case.

 

[Animal Midwife]

If that did happen, on a scale of nibbling your knuckles to tickling the ivories (your molars), how much would you have swallowed your fist when you realized it, after subbing into the slot?

Zenge. I asked you ask question first. You didn't answer it. You're already very low on my readslist so I need you to tread carefully.

I don't like you trying to discredit beans.

 

[WildZoo]

? I'm not following.

If an argument is true for the whole playerlist and you are part of the playerlist why is not true for you?

Because it's null. It's literally not a point against anyone if it's a point against everyone.

Yes. And it keeps diverting into WIFOM rather than anything concrete. I need concrete. I can't solve this on "I wouldn't do X as a wolf" unless you can pull a previous game that proves this. Because I can think of examples for all of my accusations.

Then how do you expect me to respond to anything? I have tried to give my perspective but I can't give a village perspective on an action I did not take.

When you say "Dubz would have killed samac" what other alternative do I have besides "I wouldn't have and I didn't"

Everything is WIFOM when it gets down to it. Almost any action can be looked at through both a village and a wolf lens. The point is to try to figure out which makes more sense. And I will maintain, forever, that it would make no sense for me to kill samac in this gamestate.

Well, I'll avoid that in the future but I don't get any impression that you're being treated at all like how mads was.

I didn't say I was. It did get close though People were pre-flipping me through her.

Why would you be up yesterday? It was always mads. Even with PSV outted, it was still mads.

I mean after mads flipped village, since you said I was going to be well-positioned. To make that argument, there has to be evidence that opinions on me would have changed with her flip.

 

[WildZoo]

I was saying you would say that. In the AU where PSV doesn't get caught and spew multiple people.

It's not something I can ask about today because a different sequence of events took place.

I mean, I also didn't say it lol

 

[Zenge142]

Zenge. I asked you ask question first. You didn't answer it. You're already very low on my readslist so I need you to tread carefully.

I don't like you trying to discredit beans.

Wow. Not even a laugh react. smh.

I think I've been pretty clear that I don't think it's what happened.

And if we're counting unanswered questions Midwife, you never answered my question: Do you really think we should be handing out mech clears to anyone who claims to have an MP3 player?

Lastly - I'm not discrediting Beans.

Beans made a bold statement that there was quite a bit of incriminating evidence against Dubz. I pointed out that none of the arguments Beans made amounting to that "quite a bit of incriminating evidence' - were valid, and I stand by the reasons why I found them invalid and logically unsound.

 

[vampyrica]

Which again is a reason why it wouldn't have looked great for you to either jump on the samac wagon or just stand by and let her go over, especially when Zenge was vocally against the vote at the time as well.

zenge has been a mixed party for me this entire game, i would not base my votes off of his opinion and his opinion alone, especially because i had KJQ, GB and fruit somewhat on my side. if i wanted someone guaranteed gone, i would have picked a wagon and gone "erghh gosh guys i dont know about this one but i will trust you!" and picked one.

In a w!vampy world, PSV was gone, you would have looked suspicious for supporting the various wagons on people you'd already said you didn't think were wolfing, and no one was interested in Clem. So sitting on Clem would have done nothing to help and if the PSV wagon built back up, which it very well could have, you couldn't reasonably vote for any of the counters already on the board to try to save her. I was a great alternative in that case.

In a w!vampy world, I would have stuck on clem the entire time and never changed my vote bc then that makes me an outlier, doesnt help scum and doesnt help town. just wastes everyones time. nobody wanted clem yeeted, and i still tried to get people onto clem whenever i was asked why i was on him, i gave my reasons but it was also only D1 so i didnt have much other than the fact clem is an anomally. that is until GB and i had the public discussion of possibly moving elsewhere since we were getting nowhere and the votes at the time were on people i town read from the get-go and actively encouraged people not to vote for. my original vote was infact on you, not clem. nobody was interested in that vote either UNTIL AFTER GB said something. i didnt tell people from the get-go "lets do dubz! come onto dubz!" it was GB towards the end asking for the tiebreaker.

 

[WildZoo]

@Animal Midwife I've reached the stage where I have made my points and things are devolving into stuff that doesn't really matter. If you have new points or questions I am happy to continue to spar but the current arguments are starting to go in circles and lose relevance.

 

[vampyrica]

(if the wording of that doesnt make sense, i apologize. i typed the first half before i puked and then returned lol. i can explain further what i mean if needed)

 

[Animal Midwife]

Because it's null. It's literally not a point against anyone if it's a point against everyone.

Which would be fair if that was my only accusation against you. It's one of multiple though.

Then how do you expect me to respond to anything? I have tried to give my perspective but I can't give a village perspective on an action I did not take.

I've found you as village quite a few times before. So I'm not sure w

When you say "Dubz would have killed samac" what other alternative do I have besides "I wouldn't have and I didn't"

"Here's what makes me unpaired with the rest of the POE."

Everything is WIFOM when it gets down to it. Almost any action can be looked at through both a village and a wolf lens. The point is to try to figure out which makes more sense. And I will maintain, forever, that it would make no sense for me to kill samac in this gamestate.

I've watched you dragged your biggest critics to endgame for years and even successfully misyeet them. You're too good at wolfing for me to expect you to stop at level 1 play.

I didn't say I was. It did get close though People were pre-flipping me through her.

Only after she switched to fruit. Before that, her wagon was evaporated save for Zenge.

I mean after mads flipped village, since you said I was going to be well-positioned. To make that argument, there has to be evidence that opinions on me would have changed with her flip.

I said SOD2, not SOD3 if there was a misunderstanding here.

If village misyeeted twice in a row, they would stop and think. Post-mads PSV has fuel to keep pushing samac because "look, she was wrong and kjq knew it all along." Great place to be as a wolf. PSV was unconcerned with how she looked because she knew she had plenty of POE ahead of her. But then she got caught instantly. And now your thread position has dramatically shifted down as a result of other people shifting up.

 

[WildZoo]

zenge has been a mixed party for me this entire game, i would not base my votes off of his opinion and his opinion alone, especially because i had KJQ, GB and fruit somewhat on my side. if i wanted someone guaranteed gone, i would have picked a wagon and gone "erghh gosh guys i dont know about this one but i will trust you!" and picked one.

Oh I'm not saying you should have based everything on his opinion, I'm talking about optics. You had been saying you thought samac was village, you sitting back and letting her die or helping her die would have looked terrible.

In a w!vampy world, I would have stuck on clem the entire time and never changed my vote bc then that makes me an outlier, doesnt help scum and doesnt help town. just wastes everyones time. nobody wanted clem yeeted, and i still tried to get people onto clem whenever i was asked why i was on him, i gave my reasons but it was also only D1 so i didnt have much other than the fact clem is an anomally. that is until GB and i had the public discussion of possibly moving elsewhere since we were getting nowhere and the votes at the time were on people i town read from the get-go and actively encouraged people not to vote for. my original vote was infact on you, not clem. nobody was interested in that vote either UNTIL AFTER GB said something. i didnt tell people from the get-go "lets do dubz! come onto dubz!" it was GB towards the end asking for the tiebreaker.

Again, I'm talking about optics, and also in this case a packmate being in danger (based on several voices on thread, even if she didn't have votes at that exact moment).

And your latter statement doesn't refute my point. I wasn't saying you were hard pushing for my vote, I was saying you went back there opportunistically when multiple people started talking about me.

 

[vampyrica]

OK IM BACK AND FEEL SM BETTER

 

[WildZoo]

"Here's what makes me unpaired with the rest of the POE."

This is a new train of thought so I'll respond.

I'm obviously not paired with Vampy or beans.

I don't know who is in your POE so you'll have to tell me what you mean by the rest of the POE.