GGoats ThWWee: Here It GGoats Again - GAME THREAD

[WildZoo]

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Clem? I don't think I'm unpaired from Clem, unfortunately.

 

[vampyrica]

Oh I'm not saying you should have based everything on his opinion, I'm talking about optics. You had been saying you thought samac was village, you sitting back and letting her die or helping her die would have looked terrible.

i could have remained quiet about samac at all when she entered the game, but i believed she was village so i pushed other to read she was village so we can keep her bc shes a valuable asset to our team

Again, I'm talking about optics, and also in this case a packmate being in danger (based on several voices on thread, even if she didn't have votes at that exact moment).

And your latter statement doesn't refute my point. I wasn't saying you were hard pushing for my vote, I was saying you went back there opportunistically when multiple people started talking about me.

only GB brought you up at that point (iirc), but you werent a hot topic until after GB made the initial vote. but also (iirc) not many people questioned it either

 

[WildZoo]

i could have remained quiet about samac at all when she entered the game, but i believed she was village so i pushed other to read she was village so we can keep her bc shes a valuable asset to our team

I don't think it's that easy to not give an opinion on samac lol

only GB brought you up at that point (iirc), but you werent a hot topic until after GB made the initial vote. but also (iirc) not many people questioned it either

GB, fruit, and KJQ

 

[GreedyBanger]

Sorry what initial vote did I make?

 

[supershorty]

Sorry what initial vote did I make?

Today? You voted Dubz

I'm not not counting your latest vote (if that's what you're asking about), I'm just on mobile at the moment and I hate doing tallies from my phone bc the formatting always gets janked up, so I'll get around to it when I'm home at 5ish.

 

[GreedyBanger]

In the event that WZ is town vampy is trying to get as much blood onto me as possible by I think just objectively lying

 

[vampyrica]

I don't think it's that easy to not give an opinion on samac lol

true lol but i could have just ended it at "reading samac as town" or made small comments rather than actively encourage people away from her so we can keep her.

GB, fruit, and KJQ

brought you up at that point? or made the vote for you?

 

[vampyrica]

In the event that WZ is town vampy is trying to get as much blood onto me as possible by I think just objectively lying

i quoted your post, please see above. there is no lying

 

[GreedyBanger]

Today? You voted Dubz

I'm not not counting your latest vote (if that's what you're asking about), I'm just on mobile at the moment and I hate doing tallies from my phone bc the formatting always gets janked up, so I'll get around to it when I'm home at 5ish.

I was responding to Vampy implying i've ever been the first on a WZ wagon

 

[WildZoo]

brought you up at that point? or made the vote for you?

Brought me up. Your vote was first.

 

[vampyrica]

wait no i did lie

 

[Animal Midwife]

Wow. Not even a laugh react. smh.

I think I've been pretty clear that I don't think it's what happened.

And if we're counting unanswered questions Midwife, you never answered my question: Do you really think we should be handing out mech clears to anyone who claims to have an MP3 player?

If it didn't happen, then why wouldn't the player be clear?

I didn't say any player. I said me, specifically. The noob. I don't care about the MP3 for anyone after PSV was revealed.

Lastly - I'm not discrediting Beans.

Beans made a bold statement that there was quite a bit of incriminating evidence against Dubz. I pointed out that none of the arguments Beans made amounting to that "quite a bit of incriminating evidence' - were valid, and I stand by the reasons why I found them invalid and logically unsound.

You said:

You listed 3 players you think are mechanically clear, and really only ~2 of those are really legitimate reasons to mechanically clear someone.

I was under the implication that I wasn't among those two but feel free to clarify if I misunderstood.

It's also this specific line that made me feel it wasn't just about being pro-dubz but also anti-Beans.

By that logic you also should be considered a wolf, because you also don't have anything mechanically unaligning you from PSV.

It's giving "if dubz is a wolf, then you're a wolf"(which doesn't make sense associative-wise) rather than "I don't think dubz is a wolf but this is still towny."

 

[Zenge142]

wait no i did lie

Well you should have saved your fire extinguisher then, because your pants are on fire, and there's nothing you can do about it now. 😔

 

[vampyrica]

i did lie, i said i'd be down for a dubz vote and went back. GB didnt hop on until later

 

[WildZoo]

true lol but i could have just ended it at "reading samac as town" or made small comments rather than actively encourage people away from her so we can keep her.

Could you point out where you actively encouraged people away from her wagon?

 

[Animal Midwife]

@Animal Midwife I've reached the stage where I have made my points and things are devolving into stuff that doesn't really matter. If you have new points or questions I am happy to continue to spar but the current arguments are starting to go in circles and lose relevance.

That's fine. I just assumed you wanted to continue the discussion since it was being quoted. If you have anything new to say, you know where to find me.

 

[Animal Midwife]

This is a new train of thought so I'll respond.

I'm obviously not paired with Vampy or beans.

I don't know who is in your POE so you'll have to tell me what you mean by the rest of the POE.

I would agree with that.

My POE is this:
Zenge
vamp
Lissa
Clem
dubz

 

[Zenge142]

I was under the implication that I wasn't among those two but feel free to clarify if I misunderstood.

No it's you. I don't currently think you're a wolf, if that's what you're asking but I'm not going to say you're "Mechanically Clear". I fundamentally disagree with the premise.

It's also this specific line that made me feel it wasn't just about being pro-dubz but also anti-Beans.

Then you misunderstood the purpose of the line entirely.

The line is making the point that if we were to follow the logic Beans is using -

That 20% (30% if you want to be a stickler about it) of players are mechanically clear, and Dubz isn't clear, ergo Dubz must be a wolf, then that same logic needs to be applied to literally every other player who isn't mechanically clear which is 60% of the game, including Beans who's making the argument.

Thus my point is to get Beans to recognize the flaw in the argument being made.

You can't say 3/10 people are mechanically cleared, and this 1/10 person isn't mechanically cleared, ergo they're a wolf. Which is the argument Beans is making.

You would have to apply that thinking to all 7/10 players who are not mechanically cleared, which obviously can't be the case.

It's an argument that's completely unsound logically, and calling attention to the fact that Beans would have to consider themselves a wolf by the same logic, is meant to highlight the absurdity of it.

 

[GreedyBanger]

I think Lissa is being tinfoiled by a lot of people and its the biggest read I disagree with from most of you. Talk me through either the world where scum Lissa tracks Kay who is dying that night or where scum lissa fakeclaims the tracker item

 

[Zenge142]

I think Lissa is being tinfoiled by a lot of people

Who?

 

[WildZoo]

I would agree with that.

My POE is this:
Zenge
vamp
Lissa
Clem
dubz

Oh if Zenge is in your POE then uh
Yeah idk what to do with that I mean I feel like it's pretty unpairing for me to keep calling him 3p on thread but those were (mostly) jokes*. He didn't try to save me D1.

*If he is 3p I still get to claim I knew it from the start

Lissa...you could argue I shielded her d1, I'm not sure I would have done that against like a single vote for a packmate, but sure. I think the way I questioned her D2 is unpairing.

And yeah then there's Clem. We've been pretty friendly this game. Probably any of our interactions could have been manufactured. So if you want the pack to be Dubz/Clem I don't have much to argue against that.

 

[WildZoo]

I think Lissa is being tinfoiled by a lot of people and its the biggest read I disagree with from most of you. Talk me through either the world where scum Lissa tracks Kay who is dying that night or where scum lissa fakeclaims the tracker item

I will not take responsibility for posts made by 4am Dubz

However you can look at that post if you want to see the progression of the tinfoil

 

[GreedyBanger]

Who?

Vampy, dubz, now AM which is what is promting me to directly discuss it cause I think AM is solidly town

What's your read there?

 

[vampyrica]

Could you point out where you actively encouraged people away from her wagon?

maybe, depends on if i did a good job at it or not lol

out of those four, i'd be most inclined to look into zoo.

i think samac is least likely out of these four, then maybe psv but interchangeable with genny, and wz last. i just need a lil more from zoo

i think what sold me on you as town!samac this round is the fact that multiple people were shocked at your lack of noob blood which means you must do that both as wolf and town samac haha

i wanted to do clem but my read was shut down, voted dubz but she will be away and not have the chance to defend herself, so now i’m at a crossroads. i really don’t think its mads and i think fruit is being okay, im not scum reading him enough to feel good with a vote on him. i dont get the PSV vote at all. lissa has been gone, i dont support a vote on you either. same for beans

(i remember mentioning samac her but i guess i didnt)

her meta is apparently constantly out for noob blood regardless of affiliation, i think the fact shes having a difficult time reading noobs rn is telling that shes village.

conclusion: i thought i did a better job at defending her but this actually a garbage job

 

[WildZoo]

I'm torn because part of my brain wants to be like "Ooo Lissa epiphany!!" but idk if it's too convoluted?

Like the item and usage makes sense, but we have no way to confirm that KJQ did act on samac, other than it seeming to make sense from the thread, and if we can come to that conclusion then a wolf can surely come to the same conclusion for a fake tracking claim.

Likewise it would seem strange for two wolves to act on the same player, but if Lissa wasn't tracking then...maybe not so strange?

And the big thought I had that ultimately is probably insane, is like...what if PSV wasn't lying about the item, and she was converted n1, because she used the item and ended up in the presence of a wolf and somehow that converted her? Or something?

All of this was triggered by PSV saying she believed Lissa and that there must have been some ~other~ person present for KJQ's death, which is a weird thing for a wolf to do when a Lissa vote was the only way she was gonna live.

Hard though, outted wolves do be doing stuff.

At any rate I have no reason to remove Lissa from the POE other than occam's razor.

Oh it was 5am

Look I recognize this is legitimately insane but every game needs a little wacky tinfoil, okay??

 

[WildZoo]

conclusion: i thought i did a better job at defending her but this actually a garbage job

This made me chuckle

 

[Animal Midwife]

No it's you. I don't currently think you're a wolf, if that's what you're asking but I'm not going to say you're "Mechanically Clear". I fundamentally disagree with the premise.

Well, either I'm a wolf or I'm not. How can someone be both village by mechanical events and not mechanically cleared?

Like when I say people aren't mech clear, I reserve that for those who are neutral or worse. Never my village reads.

Then you misunderstood the purpose of the line entirely.

The line is making the point that if we were to follow the logic Beans is using -

That 20% (30% if you want to be a stickler about it) of players are mechanically clear, and Dubz isn't clear, ergo Dubz must be a wolf, then that same logic needs to be applied to literally every other player who isn't mechanically clear which is 60% of the game, including Beans who's making the argument.

Thus my point is to get Beans to recognize the flaw in the argument being made.

You can't say 3/10 people are mechanically cleared, and this 1/10 person isn't mechanically cleared, ergo they're a wolf. Which is the argument Beans is making.

You would have to apply that thinking to all 7/10 players who are not mechanically cleared, which obviously can't be the case.

It's an argument that's completely unsound logically, and calling attention to the fact that Beans would have to consider themselves a wolf by the same logic, is meant to highlight the absurdity of it.

Beans I find to have good tone considering her experience level and she did have PSV in her POE prior to genny event. So I guess I don't see it as being "the same" if that makes sense. I also don't think Beans ever tried to insinuate that she herself was clear.

 

[vampyrica]

This made me chuckle

hey if theres one thing about me, i'll call it like i see it haha

 

[GreedyBanger]

The mechanically clear stuff seems like a semantic argument, and i'm more in agreement with Zenges definition. I think both me and Zenge will probably push back against that phrasing when we see it because I think your definition is deceptive (though I dont think intentionally) to newer players AM

 

[Animal Midwife]

I think Lissa is being tinfoiled by a lot of people and its the biggest read I disagree with from most of you. Talk me through either the world where scum Lissa tracks Kay who is dying that night or where scum lissa fakeclaims the tracker item

I've only played with her once or twice so it isn't about her specifically but rather about a thing that happened in a different game. The wolf (reasonably) got cleared for visiting the nightkill because the second wolf already flipped. They went to endgame and won.

So she's not top priority POE as I mentioned before. It's just that, outside of the event, I have nothing to specially village read her for. She voted you (not sure why), PSV (after she was mech outted), and mads (not sure why). So I can't speak for anything tonally village that makes me feel a double target is impossible or at least extremely unlikely.

 

[Zenge142]

Vampy, dubz, now AM which is what is promting me to directly discuss it cause I think AM is solidly town

What's your read there?

Lissa or AM?

Both probably town.

I can't really see the logic in the wolf pack sending both Lissa and PSV to act on KJQ. There are arguments for it being something that could happen in the abstract theoretically, but practically, I haven't seen anything this game that would suggest it makes sense.

I didn't really see anything to suspect that the role AM now occupies was wolfy pre-AM. Post-AM's ascension into the slot, I'm not inclined to think this push from AM on Dubz is wolf motivated, although when it comes to her POV she obviously is wrong on me again.

 

[genny]

Sorry I’m at work until 8 today and just trying to mark how far I’ve read. I promise I will be back to vote later.

Considering a Clem vote. Of the people in my POE, I feel like Clem is the only one who can be paired with everyone. But I don’t really feel good about it.

 

[WildZoo]

WAIT I THINK I DO HAVE LIKE ONE UNPAIRING MOMENT WITH CLEM!!!

Let me find it

 

[Zenge142]

Well, either I'm a wolf or I'm not. How can someone be both village by mechanical events and not mechanically cleared?

Like when I say people aren't mech clear, I reserve that for those who are neutral or worse. Never my village reads.

I'm reading your slot village from posts and thought processes.

I'm not going to say that for mechanical reasons, you're as equally unaligned with PSV as genny or MKG are.

But I don't think we'll come to an agreement on this, as we tend to see mechanics differently I think. It's semantics.

Beans I find to have good tone considering her experience level and she did have PSV in her POE prior to genny event. So I guess I don't see it as being "the same" if that makes sense. I also don't think Beans ever tried to insinuate that she herself was clear.

My point which you're hyper fixating on has nothing to do with Beans's affiliation.

It's that you can't say 3/10 players are mechanically clear - 1/10 isn't. And then say that 1/10 is a wolf because of it, without realizing that the same logic would have to apply to the other 6/10. By highlighting to Beans that Beans would be included in that 6/10 I was emphasizing to Beans just how flawed the argument is.

 

[vampyrica]

Current tally:

WildZoo (1): AM
vampy (2): wildzoo, greedybanger

not voting: clem, zenge, genny, vampy, lissa, beans, mkg

 

[GreedyBanger]

Sorry I’m at work until 8 today and just trying to mark how far I’ve read. I promise I will be back to vote later.

Considering a Clem vote. Of the people in my POE, I feel like Clem is the only one who can be paired with everyone. But I don’t really feel good about it.

Clem/vampy unpaired at EOD1 unless you think Vampy knew the wagon wouldnt get traction and distanced about it.

Was a pretty high leverage situation at EOD1 with flashwagon gang frothing at the mouth to save fruit/mads

 

[vampyrica]

since it was encouraged i vote early and that i could always change my vote

vote GB

 

[WildZoo]

Boom. The single time Clem gets some village reads early and I was like "Nuh uh! Not Clem!!"

Spoiler

His energy in d0 is much more excited than I’ve come to associate with wolf clem

have you found village clem to be particularly excitable?

So he has a baseline null that’s hard to read. Every now and then a game excites him and he gets more loud.
Was it Kirby? I think? When we found each other. It was just a distinctly different energy than his baseline null.

I guess my point is we don't know if that is an accurate metric for him. We've seen him wolf here...once or twice maybe? I can't even remember.

I feel like we’ve seen him wolf or SK here 4 or 5 times.
But maybe I’m crazy.

But yeah if Clem can be subdued or excited as a villager, and can also be subdued as a wolf, but we don't have the data to say he can't be excited as a wolf, idk that it's a meta read to hang much on. Especially when the first day is a mayor vote which is automatically less pressure than a normal vote day.

He was a wolf in Mission ImpoWWsible I think

Okay to be fair...I don't really count that towards meta formation because he was not really around and genny railroaded him lol

(this one in response to a vampy post)

I don't think the clem situation is as much nobody batting an eye as it just being like...that truly is just Clem. Take it from someone who votes for him early and often You could be right! But it think people who play with him a lot sometimes just feel kinda meh about voting for him because of that history.

And I know at least one person (maybe genny?) was actually village reading him for his general behavior D0, but I don't put much stock in it. I wouldn't put voting for a mod past wolf Clem, and D0 is relatively low stakes. And he's done literally nothing since then.

Anyway I appreciate the explanation.

Of course I changed my mind later and never voted for him, so it's weak af, but it exists!!!

Also this would have been really funny if we were packmates

Writing roles? Sounds like something for NERDS

Speaking of which, hit me up when you're running your TMA game, I wanna spectate/maybe play

You're confusing me with someone in your scum chat, I'm not a tma listener!

Huh. There must be amother Clem out there in the mafia world then. How embarrassing.

This was from a champs spec chat conversation, someone said they were running a TMA game with "Clem" soon and i just assumed it was you!

Not this clem! I can verify your story tho so I return to having no read on you so as to preserve my spotless record

 

[GreedyBanger]

I've only played with her once or twice so it isn't about her specifically but rather about a thing that happened in a different game. The wolf (reasonably) got cleared for visiting the nightkill because the second wolf already flipped. They went to endgame and won.

So she's not top priority POE as I mentioned before. It's just that, outside of the event, I have nothing to specially village read her for. She voted you (not sure why), PSV (after she was mech outted), and mads (not sure why). So I can't speak for anything tonally village that makes me feel a double target is impossible or at least extremely unlikely.

I just think that village is more likely to pick the tracking item and with a tracking item is more likely to visit Kay about it on the night she did.

 

[GreedyBanger]

since it was encouraged i vote early and that i could always change my vote

vote GB

Justify it

 

[WildZoo]

I do run into a snag with the vampy train of thought because I don't know who she would be paired with

 

[Animal Midwife]

I'm reading your slot village from posts and thought processes.

I'm not going to say that for mechanical reasons, you're as equally unaligned with PSV as genny or MKG are.

But I don't think we'll come to an agreement on this, as we tend to see mechanics differently I think. It's semantics.



My point which you're hyper fixating on has nothing to do with Beans's affiliation.

It's that you can't say 3/10 players are mechanically clear - 1/10 isn't. And then say that 1/10 is a wolf because of it, without realizing that the same logic would have to apply to the other 6/10. By highlighting to Beans that Beans would be included in that 6/10 I was emphasizing to Beans just how flawed the argument is.

Okay. Do you feel good about Beans independently of that point?

 

[Zenge142]

POV

POE*

 

[WildZoo]

I just think that village is more likely to pick the tracking item and with a tracking item is more likely to visit Kay about it on the night she did.

I actually don't think the action of tracking Kay was all that villagey? She was pretty widely village read. It makes sense for Lissa specifically given her stated reads.

Which is why if she is wolf, I think the tracking claim was a lie. Although i can think of a scenario where it would be true in that case too!

I think I've played too many games and seen too many things at this stage.

 

[GreedyBanger]

I do run into a snag with the vampy train of thought because I don't know who she would be paired with

Lightly paired with PSV already. By EOD 1 these may have been the only wolves. But like I get this sentiment and made it myself

 

[WildZoo]

I'm out for a bit probably (not to eat pie), make good choices!

 

[Animal Midwife]

I just think that village is more likely to pick the tracking item and with a tracking item is more likely to visit Kay about it on the night she did.

Well, at least from what I've seen, none of the items are straightforward in meaning. So, just to play devil's advocate, maybe she thought it did something else and had to work around it.

 

[Zenge142]

Okay. Do you feel good about Beans independently of that point?

I've generally feel okay about Beans. Granted seeing the false logic in the arguments I made points about certainly sticks out as a needle in my side.

I am curious to hear what Dubz's case on Beans is, since she said Vampy/Beans were where she was 👀 at the start of the day I believe

 

[Animal Midwife]

I may be too black and white, but I'd give her more credit if she tracked Greedy since that's who she sat on all day.

 

[Zenge142]

not to eat pie

🚨 FOOD TELL! 🚨