IMG Internal Medicine Applicants - Match 2019

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Res_Hopeful said:
A generalization is that although the deadline for ROL for programs is the same as ours, PDs typically submit their ROL 1-2 weeks before the deadline. I would suggest sending out "You're my #1" emails before Feb 6th the latest. If you can afford it and the program is in fact your #1, I would go for a second look instead. Just like we should take what programs say to us with a grain of salt, programs will take your email that you're ranking them #1 the same way. But, if you visit for a second look AND tell them you're ranking them #1, that will show them you're serious about your rank and really want to go there, and will increase your odds.
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second looks are for the applicant to clarify difference in programs that you are having questions about....not to impress the programs...it will make little difference to them (and probably extra work at a very busy time of the year) so don't spend the significant time or money that a second look entails (on your part as well as the programs' part) if its just for looks.
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TheHardWorker said:
guys when do programs start filling their ROL?
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Look at my previous post on this page, about 5 posts before you.

As for NRMP, you were supposed to purchase before the end of November, but you can still purchase it, there will just be a late fee.
 
Res_Hopeful said:
OK so if you interviewed at rokshana's program, don't go for a second look there. I'm going off of what my relatives told me (one is a PD and another an associate PD) and what 2 colleagues told me who heard directly from their PD's that their second look was why they were ranked, cause it showed that they truly wanted to come there. So if you can afford it, a second look will definitely make you memorable as majority won't go for a second look, and it will increase your chances of matching at your #1!
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you can guarantee this?
 
Res_Hopeful said:
Do I guarantee most programs will look upon a second look favorably? Yes. This is one of the top things the panel of PDs discussed at the ACP national conference, and they all unanimously agreed to take a second look at your #1 and possibly #2 to increase your chances and to make yourself fresh in the minds of the PDs when they make their ROL, especially if your IV was earlier in the season.

To imply a second look has no impact whatsoever on any programs rank list is nonsense.
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I wasn't at that panel (though was at ACP last year) so can't speak to that....I presume you weren't on that panel either, so maybe @APD or @IMPD could weigh in.

and i'm not trying to imply anything...second looks are for the benefit of the applicant to figure out the differences or any lingering questions in their ROL...trying to play it to jockey a better position on the programs' ROLs is not the point.
 
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Res_Hopeful said:
Do I guarantee most programs will look upon a second look favorably? Yes. This is one of the top things the panel of PDs discussed at the ACP national conference, and they all unanimously agreed to take a second look at your #1 and possibly #2 to increase your chances and to make yourself fresh in the minds of the PDs when they make their ROL, especially if your IV was earlier in the season.

To imply a second look has no impact whatsoever on any programs rank list is nonsense.
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The majority of programs I interviewed at explicitly said second looks were highly discouraged, they don't want to waste your $ to "show interest" (attending the interview does that), and you should only do it for yourself if you need it to make rank decisions. Many stated the PD would not even be aware you were there for a second look, as they were arranged solely through the chiefs, and the PD would not be notified in fairness to other applicants.

Here's a direct quote from the PD of one program (of many who have statements like this):
"I also wanted to reinforce that second looks are not required, not expected and are not a factor in our ranking process. Second looks should only be used if you as an applicant feel you need more information to inform your decision about the training program."
 
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Dwan said:
Here's a direct quote from the PD of one program (of many who have statements like this):
"I also wanted to reinforce that second looks are not required, not expected and are not a factor in our ranking process. Second looks should only be used if you as an applicant feel you need more information to inform your decision about the training program."
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Similar to my experience as well. Some even discouraged us from sending Thank-you letter or letter of interest.
 
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Res_Hopeful said:
Like I said, subjective. Just cause the PDs at the ACP Conference like it, doesn't mean ALL of them like it. I have a sit down meeting scheduled with the PD at both programs I am doing a second look at. These meetings were set up by the Chief residents without any prompting by myself. A lot of programs also say that Chief residents have no say in which residents are picked, but most PDs take the chief residents recommendations into consideration. One of the IVs I went on the Chiefs kept saying they have no say in the process, but my friend who is at that same program told me the Chiefs end up having a huge say in who gets ranked. Just cause a program says it is NOT a factor in our ranking process, doesn't make it true, just like if a program says "you're going to do great here," it doesn't mean they are going to rank you.
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Your statement cited a "guarantee" that most programs would look on it favorably. If a program truly believes going to a second look is beneficial to "show interest", they would not make statements like that as they would lose out on many top applicants who were highly interested, just because they listened to the PD. Many things in the process are a game, however, in this case there is no benefit to the PD/program to have a case where apparently listening to them is a bad thing. "You're going to do great here" or encouraging statements pushes you to rank the program higher, which is to their benefit, no matter where you are on their rank list (and this particular statement isn't even wrong - everyone they interviewed would do great there, and most PDs admitted that; they have to be picky for other reasons just like us in our rank lists because there are too many candidates)
 
Res_Hopeful said:
Of course I wasn't on the panel, it was a presentation on residency application and interview season with PDs followed by a Q&A smh Basically what I'm trying to say is the second look is subjective to each program, and just because YOUR program doesn't factor in second look, there are tons of programs that do take it into account. It 100% cannot hurt your chances to go for a second look, and absolute worst case scenario you're in the same position as before. But if it comes down to a short list between you and other applicants for the last rank spot, and you're the only one that came to visit for a second look, best believe it will most likely help you. There are hundreds of programs, and to think all of them are the same and act the same way (i.e. rokshana's take on this whole process) is foolish.
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no you didn't...you guaranteed that going on a second look to your #1 or #2 would have a positive effect on your application...not that it COULD help, or that you never know what it could do for your application...its in your post.

the ACGME has been quite forthright in regards to their position on post interview communications and they actively discourage it...on both sides...applicant and program...some programs take it to heart and say that there will be no post interview communication, period....no letters of acknowledgement, thank you, second looks, etc. And they make a point of saying that they want no thank you notes, love letters and even second looks....others don't encourage, but don't discourage...others are fine with it.

point being, its not a cheap thing to go for a second look...you pay your own way for everything...flight, hotel, food (maybe they treat you with breakfast at morning report or for lunch if the noon conference you attend has food), nevermind the time out from a rotation...it can cost upwards to $1000 to do that depending on where the program is located...
 
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Res_Hopeful said:
Yes I said MOST (more than half), not all. How many programs explicitly state that a second look is frowned upon besides the one you quoted? Guarantee it's not most of them.
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It was most of them, and I interviewed at many places all across the nation, including the south... If your specific program encourages second looks to show interest, then definitely go, but don't tell others to waste their money under the false presumption of increasing their rank position.
 
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Res_Hopeful said:
So basically you repeated what I have been saying, it's SUBJECTIVE. You read the program, and act on what you feel they would like. Unless it is explicitly stated not to on their website or they told you in person, a second look can only help your chances, and in no way can hurt your chances.
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If i do play devil's advocate, i can see how it CAN potentially hurt your chances because youre giving the residents morely and the program an extra responsibility. If second looks were what moved you up the rank list, everyone would be doing it.
 
Res_Hopeful said:
Worked for 2 of my colleagues last year, got them on the rank list. They were later told by the PD that their second look was the determining factor for ranking them.
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So they went to the PD after they matched and asked why they matched there? and the PD specifically said second look? I see.
 
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NGTY1991 said:
So they went to the PD after they matched and asked why they matched there? and the PD specifically said second look? I see.
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I think it’s a fair game. Every program have different preferences and standards for who they pick. For this one, genuine interest matters. We should all just leave it like that. Some say calling works, some say not. You don’t have to wrong in order for Res_hopeful to be right. Vice versa.
 
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Res_Hopeful said:
AMEN!! Thank you for repeating what I've been conveying in the last 7 posts....it's SUBJECTIVE. People need to realize that when these "attending physicians" are expressing their opinions, it's based off of THEIR program, not every single program in the US like they try and make you think. Splitting much?
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:bang:agree with NGTY1991 take...
 
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University of Michigan rejection..... Did i even apply there?

Are programs still reviewing applications in January?
 
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same to same, rejection Uni of Michigan - Main one I guess this time?
 
Think what we can conclude is that a second look is not necessary unless you have heard from a chief/PD/CC that it will help your chances. If you’re on the fence I would save money and NOT ask for a second look. However let’s say the program is in your hometown, you’re in the area or it’s not too far away then go ahead and do the second look but it’s by no means a factor in helping you if you have not been given an indication it will help in the first place.
 
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Res_Hopeful said:
Yes I said MOST (more than half), not all. How many programs explicitly state that a second look is frowned upon besides the one you quoted? Guarantee it's not most of them.

Nevermind, you're right, every program in the US never once considers a second look ever when choosing their ROL. haha ridiculous
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Program director invited me back for a second look clinical day, I spent time rounding with her and the aPD. I absolutely agree its subjective. In this process no two programs are the same. I have had many programs say please email if your interested and welcome thank you notes and also had a couple that said no emails please. Just feel out the program, ask the coordinator and move on.
 
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Res_Hopeful said:
Again, its subjective. I have only been interviewing at programs in the South, so all of the one's I IVed at were all about southern hospitality and very friendly, more about personality during the IV, so thank you letters, especially handwritten, and second looks are looked upon favorably. I'm sure most of those Northeast and West Coast programs have a lot different outlook on these things. Again like I said in my last 3 posts, its subjective from program to program.
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My IVs were mostly limited in the Northeast IMG-friendly states ;)
 
Res_Hopeful said:
And therefore my take as well since it was the same take, making your response to my initial post unnecessary, pointless, and just looking to pick an argument.
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Re-read your original posts using words like "guaranteed" and compare them to mine, which cited real facts. Notice how I used language like "the majority of programs I interviewed at", while you spoke for "the majority of programs in the nation". And not only that, you said with 100% confidence that your assumptions were facts applicable to all programs (you were the only one here painting a black and white picture, while the rest of the posts leave room to subjectivity).

For example: "So if you can afford it, a second look will definitely make you memorable as majority won't go for a second look, and it will increase your chances of matching at your #1!"

I don't think anyone here said "second looks are useless for every single program in the nation 100%". You're backtracking now, but there's a reason your posts had so much controversy.
 
Internal Medicine N=164 programs
4% of 164 programs cite second look as a ranking criteria with an importance of 2.5/5.

There are the facts. Hope we can shut this topic down and move on.

Also post interview contact 11% programs cite this as a factor.

Instead of worrying about all the post interview stuff. Why not focus on the data and kick ass on interview day? Clearly your performace on interview day and scores is what will ultimately matter. Everything else is kinda blah.
 

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Res_Hopeful said:
OK so if you interviewed at rokshana's program, don't go for a second look there. I'm going off of what my relatives told me (one is a PD and another an associate PD) and what 2 colleagues told me who heard directly from their PD's that their second look was why they were ranked, cause it showed that they truly wanted to come there. So if you can afford it, a second look will definitely make you memorable as majority won't go for a second look, and it will increase your chances of matching at your #1!
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Not really. But feel free to trust your anecdotes.
 
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I happen to know one program's ranking algorithm. Second interview and Rank No 1 letter both worth one point. This is equivalent of getting one point higher in either Step 1 or CK score. Of course this is an n=1 observation, but I did not attempt to arrange any second look myself. I would say go to a second look not to impress the program, but to help you decide between programs.

However I really regret sending No 1 letter too early as I changed my mind later near the ROL deadline.
 
any idea as to what time the pm interview at hurley flint begins?
 
We’ll see this match how many people should se
Res_Hopeful said:
So 164/439. Yup, great representation of all the programs, treat those percentages like the bible! smh
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actually 4% of 164 = 6-7 programs and i think MP was trying to defend you, Res_Hopeful
 
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Apart from NRMP releasing more instructional videos today, not much movement -_-

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Res_Hopeful said:
Conveniently leaving out where i say that its subjective 10 times from program to program, but with MAJORITY it will make you memorable regardless. I like how you both are only dissecting certain words and phrases I write and completely ignoring the big picture I'm trying to convey. Hell, even Conrad Fischer says in his top 5 most important things to do during residency interviews is to go for a second look to at least your #1 if not your #2. But what does that guy know, he's an idiot and hasn't been through nearly as many residency app seasons as a PD as you and rokshana.
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the big picture you are offering is false (and frankly mean) hope.

and if your source of advice is Conrad Fischer...well...
 
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Has anybody been invited to "diversity dinners" or "minority recruitment dinners" after your interview? I've never heard of them before and have received 2 of those invitations so far. I honestly have no idea what to expect haha. Both programs are in the same city I live in so I will definitely go but I was wondering if anybody knew what they were.
 
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NGTY1991 said:
We’ll see this match how many people should se

actually 4% of 164 = 6-7 programs and i think MP was trying to defend you, Res_Hopeful
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It’s okay, those stats are for everyone to see and to help make informed decisions.
 
Res_Hopeful said:
It's false to YOU. Don't be confusing your opinions on second looks to actual fact that there are a lot of programs who care. If there is someone who only had a few interviews this year, it's mean and misleading to tell them not to go on a second look because the programs they interviewed at won't care either way when they potentially would. YOU could be costing someone a bump up on a programs ROL that would come with a second look and possibly cost them a residency and them having to SOAP.

And obviously you're not keen on details, as I have said that many ACP conference PDs I talked to, including the ones on the panel, and every other PD I personally know or that my colleagues have asked have said that it will more times than not get you bumped up on the ROL. Conrad Fischer was just an example, but you obviously believe you're way smarter than him.

I'm going to assume with the attitude from those saying second looks NEVER have an impact on a programs ROL that you're from programs in the Northeast or West Coast. In my experience, and frankly just the known reputation, most medical professionals in these regions are arrogant, borderline narcissistic.
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Trying to PM you but failed.
 
Res_Hopeful said:
It's false to YOU. Don't be confusing your opinions on second looks to actual fact that there are a lot of programs who care. If there is someone who only had a few interviews this year, it's mean and misleading to tell them not to go on a second look because the programs they interviewed at won't care either way when they potentially would. YOU could be costing someone a bump up on a programs ROL that would come with a second look and possibly cost them a residency and them having to SOAP.

And obviously you're not keen on details, as I have said that many ACP conference PDs I talked to, including the ones on the panel, and every other PD I personally know or that my colleagues have asked have said that it will more times than not get you bumped up on the ROL. Conrad Fischer was just an example, but you obviously believe you're way smarter than him.

I'm going to assume with the attitude from those saying second looks NEVER have an impact on a programs ROL that you're from programs in the Northeast or West Coast. In my experience, and frankly just the known reputation, most medical professionals in these regions are arrogant, borderline narcissistic.
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The stats have been posted, straight from PDs. It's unlikely there is selection bias for people who don't care about second looks in the survey, and 167 programs are a very large sample size unlike your anecdotal n=2. Plus their opinions are way more valuable than yours for this topic, I'd listen to a PD survey of n=1 over yours. 4% of programs view it as potentially important, and even among those, it has one of the lowest significance ratings. No need to get so defensive when you've been proven to be wrong. The only part where you're not wrong is the part where you're spamming "subjective" - if you had stated that from the start, there would be no controversy. The rest of your statements are still wrong though, this does not apply to "most" programs (you bash on a survey of 167 accurate opinions when you've probably only attended <20 interviews, and you're assuming no explicit mention of 2nd look means it definitely is helpful), there is no guarantee of benefit, and the regional theory is BS. How nice people are does not also impact the significance of second looks, that's another arbitrary thing you made up... I'm pretty sure the PDs who don't give priority to people who are rich or like to bankrupt themselves are the nice ones, and that's been the case for all my southern interviews. And I'm pretty sure "narcissistic" is expecting you to spend way more $ to get into their own program rather than using it to explore others or go on vacation.
 
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Res_Hopeful said:
Perceived Interest in the program = 59%

Have to lump this in with second look, as it shows an interest in their program.
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You realize that in those statistics quoted, it specifically mentions that "Second interview/visit" which has a 4%. Even then if programs listed it as a factor, it had an average rating of 3.6 (even lower than your personal statement which you did prior). PLEASE. STOP. You're just trolling/causing trouble for no reason at this point.
 
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Anon90 said:
You realize, that in those statistics quoted, it specifically mentions that "Second interview/visit" which has a 4%, which even then if programs listed it as a factor had an average rating of 3.6 (even lower than your personal statement which you did prior). PLEASE. STOP. You're just trolling/causing trouble for no reason at this point.
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He prefers his own major extrapolations even when there is direct, accurate data available right in the same document, and from the same sample of PDs.
 
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*In an effort to move the convo*

ANY THREADS ON THIS YEARS RANK LIST? LETS GET THIS GOING IF THERE ISN'T

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ccmscuem said:
*In an effort to move the convo*

ANY THREADS ON THIS YEARS RANK LIST? LETS GET THIS GOING IF THERE ISN'T

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Agreed (but there's a specific thread stickied already about this topic).
 
Res_Hopeful said:
Perceived Interest in the program = 59%

Have to lump this in with second look, as it shows an interest in their program.
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Why are you lumping data? Just roll with the data and stop being defensive. No one wants to argue. We just want to match and be supportive along the way. If you want to continue this arguement I suggest you make a new thread on second looks.
 
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Res_Hopeful said:
It's false to YOU. Don't be confusing your opinions on second looks to actual fact that there are a lot of programs who care. If there is someone who only had a few interviews this year, it's mean and misleading to tell them not to go on a second look because the programs they interviewed at won't care either way when they potentially would. YOU could be costing someone a bump up on a programs ROL that would come with a second look and possibly cost them a residency and them having to SOAP.

And obviously you're not keen on details, as I have said that many ACP conference PDs I talked to, including the ones on the panel, and every other PD I personally know or that my colleagues have asked have said that it will more times than not get you bumped up on the ROL. Conrad Fischer was just an example, but you obviously believe you're way smarter than him.

I'm going to assume with the attitude from those saying second looks NEVER have an impact on a programs ROL that you're from programs in the Northeast or West Coast. In my experience, and frankly just the known reputation, most medical professionals in these regions are arrogant, borderline narcissistic.
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Southern bred and southern trained thank you ...please let me know any southern program you have interviewed at...happy to put a word in for ya
 
This one program I interviewed at basically invited all their applicants for a 2nd look. I am guessing they will rank applicants based on that. I feel it’s like putting more pressure on an applicant (esp someone who does not want to miss out on any opportunity to be ranked). From where I live, it’s going to cost me 1000$ to go there (ticket, stay, food) just to show interest and I cannot afford that right now
 
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Res_Hopeful said:
I'm going to assume with the attitude from those saying second looks NEVER have an impact on a programs ROL that you're from programs in the Northeast or West Coast. In my experience, and frankly just the known reputation, most medical professionals in these regions are arrogant, borderline narcissistic.
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Dude I think everyone in this thread has about had it with your hostile attitude and insults. You just generalized two entire regions of the US. At this point it doesn't even matter if you're right or wrong, it's the way you're delivering the information that's putting everyone here on edge. We all sincerely hope this is not how you act when you're delivering information to your patients or if this is how you're acting during your interviews. Because if that is the case, you're going to be a terror to work with.
 
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Enzymaticdegradation said:
This one program I interviewed at basically invited all their applicants for a 2nd look. I am guessing they will rank applicants based on that. I feel it’s like putting more pressure on an applicant (esp someone who does not want to miss out on any opportunity to be ranked). From where I live, it’s going to cost me 1000$ to go there (ticket, stay, food) just to show interest and I cannot afford that right now
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If it’s your No. 1 choice, maybe worth it. Anyways, what actually happened during 2nd look?
 
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