Is being a dentist really that bad?

[drornot]

https://bloggerdds.weebly.com/blog/dentistry-sucks

This post makes it seem like being a dentist is horrible. The the points that scare me the most are the financials. Do you really only make $100,000?

I don’t particularly plan to open a practice, and I will be going to a dental school that is going to cost me roughly $220,000 - $250,000 in loans total. I plan to practice in Florida.

What do you guys think of the bloggers opinions in the linked post? Do associate dentists really only make $100-$120K? Is the career worth it with my specific situation described above?

Sadly this morning, I also happened to see that dentists are now ranked #47 in the top 100 jobs according to the U.S. News and Reports. While this isn’t bad, it’s particularly concerning when it was #2 just two years ago. It also says there’s a 5% unemployment rate for dentists.

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[periopocket]

Being a Dentist is a gift, you can easily earn 250k, you just have to have a reasonable work ethic, you dont even have to go on to specialize to attain this.....as your skill set grows you can make closer to 500!

 

[drornot]

Being a Dentist is a gift, you can easily earn 250k, you just have to have a reasonable work ethic, you dont even have to go on to specialize to attain this.....as your skill set grows you can make closer to 500!

As an associate though?

 

[HelicaseInitiator]

Depends on how many days a week you are working and your patient base. most associates clear 125-160K their first year. Owners do make more but you have more responsibility

 

[D1Bound]

I wouldn't ever go into dentistry and plan to continue as an associate. if you keep your debt reasonable, dentistry is an awesome profession. I know a solo practitioner who makes 400k easily. Granted, he's an old, seasoned doctor. He does all his endo, all his crowns, he's done a lot of education in implants. If you get continuing education and you put in the hours doing dentistry you can make 300k+ all day long. What many people fail to realize is that dentistry is not some 3 day a week cushy part time gig. People think this and disregard how much debt they take on and then they get a rude awakening at the end. This schedule is for a semi-retired doctor. Also, dentists don't get rich off of ONLY dentistry. You have to be smart and leverage your money in other areas as well. Then you have to consider what a specialist makes. If you managed to keep your debt low, let's say below 450k, and become an endodontist or oral surgeon, 450,000 is literally chump change when you can make 800k-1.2 million as an omfs in a corporate office. You'd probably want to hold off on a nice car and house for 1-2 years but when you learn what these professions are capable of it's pretty eye opening.

 

[charlestweed]

https://bloggerdds.weebly.com/blog/dentistry-sucks

I don’t particularly plan to open a practice, and I will be going to a dental school that is going to cost me roughly $220,000 - $250,000 in loans total. I plan to practice in Florida.

If you don’t plan to open your own practice and plan to work as an associate for the rest of your life, then I am not sure if you will enjoy dentistry. It’s impossible to find an ideal associate job that pays you well and gives you all the things that you want….like good 9-5 working shift, no weekend hours, experienced assistants, friendly office manager, a friendly gp boss, high end equipment/chairs, expensive dental materials etc. Dentistry is a business and not a non-profit organization. The dentist owner wants to make profit from your sweat and labor. If you want him to pay you well, then he has to cut cost somewhere else….like hiring a low pay inexperienced assistant to help you, reusing the same old endo files, using cheap dental material etc.

 

[charlestweed]

As an associate though?

Periopocket is right. It depends on your work ethic. This new grad GP (First year after AEGD: yearly collection report) makes close to $200k for working only 4 days a week as an associate. If he gets another 1-2 days/week part time job, his associate salary should easily exceed $250k.

It also depends on your skill level. If you work at a busy office and you are fast, you should make plenty of money and you will enjoy your job more. But if it takes you 30-45 minutes to fill a tooth or 2+ hours to do a crown prep, then you’ll have a miserable life. If you can’t multi-task and have poor chair time management skill, then dentistry is a very stressful job for you.

 

[TanMan]

https://bloggerdds.weebly.com/blog/dentistry-sucks

This post makes it seem like being a dentist is horrible. The the points that scare me the most are the financials. Do you really only make $100,000?

I don’t particularly plan to open a practice, and I will be going to a dental school that is going to cost me roughly $220,000 - $250,000 in loans total. I plan to practice in Florida.

What do you guys think of the bloggers opinions in the linked post? Do associate dentists really only make $100-$120K? Is the career worth it with my specific situation described above?

Sadly this morning, I also happened to see that dentists are now ranked #47 in the top 100 jobs according to the U.S. News and Reports. While this isn’t bad, it’s particularly concerning when it was #2 just two years ago. It also says there’s a 5% unemployment rate for dentists.

Who is this blogger to make this post? Are they a dentist? If they were making only 100k, they must have been a really mediocre dentist.

I'll hit up every main point they tried to make. Dentists aren't poor. There are some that are rich and some that are poor. That's on each individual to choose their own dentistry. A broad brush stroke and claim like that is incredibly short sighted and possible projection of their own poor performance. If it is a reflection of their own performance, I imagine that they want to think everyone else is poor. Otherwise, they cannot accept that they are a failure. Now, if they are/were successful, then they are just lying. Either way, it doesn't look good upon the author.

Second, stress kills you, that is true. What profession has ZERO stress? It's not an easy profession, but they make it seem like it's so overwhelming. First world problems IMO. We all have stresses in our personal and professional lives. It is up to us to bring ourselves to the forefront of controlling our stresses and the variables around us. Not the other way around. I believe that if every dental student has the mental fortitude to survive dental school, their aforementioned stresses are nothing compared to that.

Third, dentistry is disgusting? Sounds like a poor decision to work. Someone has to do the dirty work and sounds like they are afraid to get their hands dirty. If this work is beneath you, don't do it. Just like being a garbageman/woman sounds pretty disgusting, you choose what you want to do. Sounds like a layperson trying to describe dentistry.

Fourth, physical trauma... yes, there can be chronic problems. Some people have bad posture. There's ergonomics involved, it does take a toll on your body. Is it any different from sitting in an office chair 8 hours a day? Is it any worse than working out in construction in a hot sunny day?

Fifth, supposedly it's getting worse. I guess it depends on which end of the stick you're at. It's region specific, your circumstances, but again, to paint such a broad brush stroke on such a complex scenario just sounds more like fear mongering. There will always be ups and downs. Those that cannot adapt will surely perish (or become financially mediocre).

Sounds like a doomsayer/sky is falling type of person. It's been good to me, it's been good to a whole lot of others. My experiences have been pretty good overall, but that's not to say it doesn't have its pitfalls. As I've said before, as a student/outsider, the debt seems huge, as an associate, it doesn't seem as bad, and as an owner, it's nothing.

"Rankings" are totally subjective and arbitrary. I wouldn't take a mediocre publication and treat it like gospel. I wouldn't care if dentistry was ranking 1000/1000, because the only ones that would really know are the dentists themselves.

Now, finally, to answer your question: Is it worth it? Not if you're just going to be an associate that's forced to work in a major metro area with a large saturation of dentists. If you're flexible, you can probably clear 500-700k as an associate, but you'll be working a LOT. If you plan to become an owner, then definitely, it might be worth it even at a million dollars if you think you have it in you to succeed and willing to do what it takes. YMMV, I assume no liability for this advice.

Edit: inb4 someone says don't listen to me, not typical results, etc. ymmv.

 

[charlestweed]

I wouldn't ever go into dentistry and plan to continue as an associate. if you keep your debt reasonable, dentistry is an awesome profession. I know a solo practitioner who makes 400k easily. Granted, he's an old, seasoned doctor. He does all his endo, all his crowns, he's done a lot of education in implants. If you get continuing education and you put in the hours doing dentistry you can make 300k+ all day long. What many people fail to realize is that dentistry is not some 3 day a week cushy part time gig. People think this and disregard how much debt they take on and then they get a rude awakening at the end. This schedule is for a semi-retired doctor. Also, dentists don't get rich off of ONLY dentistry. You have to be smart and leverage your money in other areas as well. Then you have to consider what a specialist makes. If you managed to keep your debt low, let's say below 450k, and become an endodontist or oral surgeon, 450,000 is literally chump change when you can make 800k-1.2 million as an omfs in a corporate office. You'd probably want to hold off on a nice car and house for 1-2 years but when you learn but these professions are capable of it's pretty eye opening.

I agree. Don’t pursue dentistry if you don’t plan to open your own practice. Being an owner, you have more freedom do to things that you like. It’s stressful to run a practice but with the higher income that I earn for being an owner, I don’t mind. I’ve been doing both: working P/T at my own office and working P/T at a corp office. It’s the best of both worlds. When my own business doesn’t produce much (especially during the slow months of Sept-Jan), I still get the guaranteed salary from my P/T time job at the corp office.

 

[LFA20]

https://bloggerdds.weebly.com/blog/dentistry-sucks

This post makes it seem like being a dentist is horrible. The the points that scare me the most are the financials. Do you really only make $100,000?

I don’t particularly plan to open a practice, and I will be going to a dental school that is going to cost me roughly $220,000 - $250,000 in loans total. I plan to practice in Florida.

What do you guys think of the bloggers opinions in the linked post? Do associate dentists really only make $100-$120K? Is the career worth it with my specific situation described above?

Sadly this morning, I also happened to see that dentists are now ranked #47 in the top 100 jobs according to the U.S. News and Reports. While this isn’t bad, it’s particularly concerning when it was #2 just two years ago. It also says there’s a 5% unemployment rate for dentists.

I don't make that much money and I like being a dentist . I think that post was done by some grumpy dentist who had a bad day in the office...

 

[drornot]

If you don’t plan to open your own practice and plan to work as an associate for the rest of your life, then I am not sure if you will enjoy dentistry. It’s impossible to find an ideal associate job that pays you well and gives you all the things that you want….like good 9-5 working shift, no weekend hours, experienced assistants, friendly office manager, a friendly gp boss, high end equipment/chairs, expensive dental materials etc. Dentistry is a business and not a non-profit organization. The dentist owner wants to make profit from your sweat and labor. If you want him to pay you well, then he has to cut cost somewhere else….like hiring a low pay inexperienced assistant to help you, reusing the same old endo files, using cheap dental material etc.

Let me rephrase this. It’s not that I don’t plan to open a practice at all, but it’s just that I know nothing about that yet and I don’t wanna put all my chips on a career that almost requires me to open on for it to be worth it. I really love dentistry, but I always thought about doing just that. I don’t want to worry about money and management and insurances. I was to care for my patients and focus on mastering procedures.

One of the hardest decisions I ever had to make was to choose between medicine and dentistry. I ultimately chose dentistry because I like the hands on aspect more, the long lasting relationships you build with patients, and the work-life balance. The one thing I feel that medicine might have an advantage in for someone like me is that you’re not expected to really own a practice…

But this is where I get confused because an internal medicine physician or family medicine physician makes roughly the same amount as a seasoned associate general dentist in my state. Yet, I feel that most people would say that the physician got his money’s worth but the dentist didn’t (because he hasn’t opened a practice). Why? Isn’t this practically the same scenario. Keep in mind my financial scenario of $220-$250K in loans.

 

[drornot]

I don't make that much money and I like being a dentist . I think that post was done by some grumpy dentist who had a bad day in the office...

If you don’t mind me asking… do you make more? And are you an associate dentist or do you own your practice? How many days do you work in a week?

 

[Wahoowah]

OP has legitimate concerns. Its hard to understand the practical realities of medicine vs dentistry when you're in school. A lot of us went into dentistry BECAUSE of the flexibility and the chance to control our own businesses through practice ownership. To be a successful dentist you have to get really comfortable with business, leadership, marketing, on top of being a good clinician. You also have to be very comfortable with not just school debt, but practice debt which could be anywhere between $300k-1M. As compared to medicine, I think dentistry comes with more financial risk, but potentially more financial reward and autonomy. Also remember that as a business owner you have better tax advantages in terms of writing off expenses such as travel, automobiles, etc compared to most physicians who receive a W2.

If you have no interest in the business aspects you could still do well as an associate specialist. I'd recommend talking closely with different practitioners in your area including different specialties and see if their practice and lifestyle seems appealing to you.

There are a lot of medical specialties that have good lifestyle and are hands-on too. If you are not really excited about attending dental school right now I would not enroll and consider those options.

 

[LFA20]

If you don’t mind me asking… do you make more? And are you an associate dentist or do you own your practice? How many days do you work in a week?

As you can see in my profile I am a military dentist, so by default I do not make much I had zero debt upon graduation from d-school and so that's a plus. Workdays are definitely a lot lighter than typical associate/practice owner in civilian world and we have lots of holidays. I would have been done with my scholarship payback this July but I decided to extend 2 more years. Still thinking if I want to switch into associateship/ownership though. I really enjoy doing crowns/cerec and I heard those are $$ makers in PP.

 

[schmoob]

I really enjoy doing crowns/cerec and I heard those are $$ makers in PP.

They are. I’m personally not a fan of CEREC after using it extensively. Maybe if so I was doing zirconia instead of e.max it would be different. Zirconia is a very conservative prep and very strong material.

Anyway, bread and butter crown and bridge is still very lucrative. Today I did an anterior RCT/BU/Crown and produced >$3K on that case in one hour.

 

[drornot]

Periopocket is right. It depends on your work ethic. This new grad GP (First year after AEGD: yearly collection report) makes close to $200k for working only 4 days a week as an associate. If he gets another 1-2 days/week part time job, his associate salary should easily exceed $250k. It also depends on your skill level. If you work at a busy office and you are fast, you should make plenty of money and you will enjoy your job more. But if it takes you 30-45 minutes to fill a tooth or 2+ hours to do a crown prep, then you’ll have a miserable life. If you can’t multi-task and have poor chair time management skill, then dentistry is a very stressful job for you.

I agree. Don’t pursue dentistry if you don’t plan to open your own practice. Being an owner, you have more freedom do to things that you like. It’s stressful to run a practice but with the higher income that I earn for being an owner, I don’t mind. I’ve been doing both: working P/T at my own office and working P/T at a corp office. It’s the best of both worlds. When my own business doesn’t produce much (especially during the slow months of Sept-Jan), I still get the guaranteed salary from my P/T time job at the corp office.

I appreciate your perspective. The thing that I’m stuck on is why it seems like practice ownership is ESSENTIAL. If I can make $200K as an associate working just 4 days a week at some point in my career, why do I NEED to take out a loan to open a practice and have the headaches of running a business. I get that the income potential is significantly greater but what if I don’t really mind taking that pay cut in place of less responsibilities? Maybe I’m missing the point here and you can correct my thinking.

Seriously reconsidering my path because of how practice ownership is so heavily emphasized.

 

[periopocket]

I appreciate your perspective. The thing that I’m stuck on is why it seems like practice ownership is ESSENTIAL. If I can make $200K as an associate working just 4 days a week at some point in my career, why do I NEED to take out a loan to open a practice and have the headaches of running a business. I get that the income potential is significantly greater but what if I don’t really mind taking that pay cut in place of less responsibilities? Maybe I’m missing the point here and you can correct my thinking.

Seriously reconsidering my path because of how practice ownership is so heavily emphasized.

You absolutely don’t have to buy a practice. Especially with the rise of DSOs, you can even make 400k as an associate.

So rest easy. Also the costs of running a business are getting so high it may not be worth it.

I’m an associate 2.5 days a week and a practice owner 2.5 days a week. I’m doing incredible in my associate job, and meanwhile being a new practice owner is daunting, there’s deff potential but a lot of up front costs and stress.

I work for 3 diff DSOs and the cash is great I prob could have done it my whole life and made much more than many practice owners. But the caveat is I drive over an hour in 6-7 locations I understand that can be stressful to some too. Also, as Charles tweed mentioned you have to be fast, today I did 10 surgeries in 7 hours straight no lunch. You must be willing to work hard and not get jealous of the owner who is providing you patients and skimming off the top. Being a specialist I get paid on average 45% of production.

GL

 

[TanMan]

They are. I’m personally not a fan of CEREC after using it extensively. Maybe if so I was doing zirconia instead of e.max it would be different. Zirconia is a very conservative prep and very strong material.

Anyway, bread and butter crown and bridge is still very lucrative. Today I did an anterior RCT/BU/Crown and produced >$3K on that case in one hour.

Man, I'm not charging enough for anterior RCTBUCrn. To add to the point, your production is just an hour of your time, assuming there was no other patients, no other procedures. The trick is to have several of these lined up per hour, every hour.

 

[drornot]

You absolutely don’t have to buy a practice. Especially with the rise of DSOs, you can even make 400k as an associate.

So rest easy. Also the costs of running a business are getting so high it may not be worth it.

I’m an associate 2.5 days a week and a practice owner 2.5 days a week. I’m doing incredible in my associate job, and meanwhile being a new practice owner is daunting, there’s deff potential but a lot of up front costs and stress.

I work for 3 diff DSOs and the cash is great I prob could have done it my whole life and made much more than many practice owners. But the caveat is I drive over an hour in 6-7 locations I understand that can be stressful to some too. Also, as Charles tweed mentioned you have to be fast, today I did 10 surgeries in 7 hours straight no lunch. You must be willing to work hard and not get jealous of the owner who is providing you patients and skimming off the top. Being a specialist I get paid on average 45% of production.

GL

Thank you for this. This sounds totally fine to me. I’m okay with working hard especially if I only have to work 4 days a week, I’ll work hard 4 days a week. I don’t need to make over $200K. I’m totally fine with averaging $150K at some point. I’m just trying to imagine the worst case scenario where I’m making as little money as possible and not being a practice owner. Would you avoid dentistry if this were the case?

 

[periopocket]

Thank you for this. This sounds totally fine to me. I’m okay with working hard especially if I only have to work 4 days a week, I’ll work hard 4 days a week. I don’t need to make over $200K. I’m totally fine with averaging $150K at some point. I’m just trying to imagine the worst case scenario where I’m making as little money as possible and not being a practice owner. Would you avoid dentistry if this were the case?

You will be fine my dude! My gp partner busts her ass and is doing easy 400k at a DSO, working 4 days a week at one location. She never plans to own. You can easily make 200 no sweat!

 

[Mauricio45]

While dentistry is tough and has its moments, I definitely think we have it way better off compared to many other professions except for maybe medicine. I am not a fan of all this "doom and gloom". Go to the optometry and pharmacy boards and see how bad they really have it. I'm glad I didn't go into those particular fields.

 

[drornot]

While dentistry is tough and has its moments, I definitely think we have it way better off compared to many other professions except for maybe medicine. I am not a fan of all this "doom and gloom". Go to the optometry and pharmacy boards and see how bad they really have it. I'm glad I didn't go into those particular fields.

What’s so bad about optometry or pharmacy? I have several friends doing both of these 😅

 

[AONLINE]

They are. I’m personally not a fan of CEREC after using it extensively. Maybe if so I was doing zirconia instead of e.max it would be different. Zirconia is a very conservative prep and very strong material.

Anyway, bread and butter crown and bridge is still very lucrative. Today I did an anterior RCT/BU/Crown and produced >$3K on that case in one hour.

Doc, can you do Zirconia for anterior crowns? What would be a better option for those cases, PFZ or Emax? I also did an anterior RCT/BU/crown today, but I think my total adjusted production with PPO contracted rate is $2300

You absolutely don’t have to buy a practice. Especially with the rise of DSOs, you can even make 400k as an associate.

So rest easy. Also the costs of running a business are getting so high it may not be worth it.

I’m an associate 2.5 days a week and a practice owner 2.5 days a week. I’m doing incredible in my associate job, and meanwhile being a new practice owner is daunting, there’s deff potential but a lot of up front costs and stress.

I work for 3 diff DSOs and the cash is great I prob could have done it my whole life and made much more than many practice owners. But the caveat is I drive over an hour in 6-7 locations I understand that can be stressful to some too. Also, as Charles tweed mentioned you have to be fast, today I did 10 surgeries in 7 hours straight no lunch. You must be willing to work hard and not get jealous of the owner who is providing you patients and skimming off the top. Being a specialist I get paid on average 45% of production.

GL

Doc, do you work for PDS? I heard that the periodontists that work for them can make close to a million a year, does that sound about right?

 

[TanMan]

Doc, can you do Zirconia for anterior crowns? What would be a better option for those cases, PFZ or Emax? I also did an anterior RCT/BU/crown today, but I think my total adjusted production with PPO contracted rate is $2300


Doc, do you work for PDS? I heard that the periodontists that work for them can make close to a million a year, does that sound about right?

I almost always use 4Y/5Y zirconia on the anteriors. PFZ's weakpoint is delamination of porcelain to zirconia, and emax is just ridiculously weak. You can use 4Y/5Y zirconia and just have the lab custom shade to specifications. They can create the illusion of zone transitions and translucency with post-sintering modifications. Monolithic 4Y/5Y zirconia is still stronger than emax and doesn't have that annoying greying effects with MT/HT emax.

 

[LFA20]

Thank you for this. This sounds totally fine to me. I’m okay with working hard especially if I only have to work 4 days a week, I’ll work hard 4 days a week. I don’t need to make over $200K. I’m totally fine with averaging $150K at some point. I’m just trying to imagine the worst case scenario where I’m making as little money as possible and not being a practice owner. Would you avoid dentistry if this were the case?

Averaging $150k salary is not bad as an associate if you have no student loans to pay back. But when you graduate with 400k-500k debt and only making 150k before tax. That’s gonna suck. Might as well not go to dental school…

 

[drornot]

While dentistry is tough and has its moments, I definitely think we have it way better off compared to many other professions except for maybe medicine. I am not a fan of all this "doom and gloom". Go to the optometry and pharmacy boards and see how bad they really have it. I'm glad I didn't go into those particular fields.

What’s so bad about optometry or pharmacy? I have several friends doing both of these

Averaging $150k salary is not bad as an associate if you have no student loans to pay back. But when you graduate with 400k-500k debt and only making 150k before tax. That’s gonna suck. Might as well not go to dental school…

In my situation I’m going to have $250K in debt. Not $400-$500K. Would you say the same thing for my scenario?

 

[Mauricio45]

What’s so bad about optometry or pharmacy? I have several friends doing both of these 😅

Low pay for the amount of training, less prestige/respect from patients who don't consider you a real doctor, pharmacists work crazy hours (often 12-14 hours!) and stand on their feet all day, extreme saturation in both fields especially with corps taking over, LASIK eye surgery rendering the need for optometrists with less people needing glasses, etc.

 

[LFA20]

Your situation is not that bad.
I’d say it’s doable

In my situation I’m going to have $250K in debt. Not $400-$500K. Would you say the same thing for my scenario?

 

[LFA20]

Low pay for the amount of training, less prestige/respect from patients who don't consider you a real doctor, pharmacists work crazy hours (often 12-14 hours!) and stand on their feet all day, extreme saturation in both fields especially with corps taking over, LASIK eye surgery rendering the need for optometrists with less people needing glasses, etc.

Lol I would never call myself a doctor if i was a pharmacist and I think people know that. But being a dentist.. I don’t know how many times people joke that I’m not a real doctor

 

[D1Bound]

What’s so bad about optometry or pharmacy? I have several friends doing both of these 😅

Salaries are dropping and the job market is saturated at least for pharmacy. I wouldn't sweat salary too much with dentistry if you're smart with money and are ready to work. Keep in mind that your communication skills have to be excellent and you do have to be able to speak to patients to help them understand why they need your treatment. Some people call this "Selling" dentistry. If you made 200k in dentistry and put money into passive incomes like being a minority owner of a chain restaurant, owned property that you rented, you're fine. Careers like this give you a platform to make more money because you have more capital to work with. You could be an associate dentist and have other ventures. There's a youtube personality Joel Meyerson that has done this. He chose not to be an owner and he's doing very well. Or like someone else said, you could be an associate specialist at a corp or a specialist in a group. Those folks don't own and they make a handsome salary. Dentistry has SO many possibilities it's really neat.

 

[schmoob]

Man, I'm not charging enough for anterior RCTBUCrn. To add to the point, your production is just an hour of your time, assuming there was no other patients, no other procedures. The trick is to have several of these lined up per hour, every hour.

Agreed, I actually had a surgical extraction, bone graft/membrane in the next room at the same time so my net production for that hour was definitely more than $3K. I did the extraction while the assistant was scanning and temporizing.

Doc, can you do Zirconia for anterior crowns? What would be a better option for those cases, PFZ or Emax? I also did an anterior RCT/BU/crown today, but I think my total adjusted production with PPO contracted rate is $2300

I like to use zirconia exclusively. Like @TanMan mentioned, you can use different zirconias like 4Y/5Y. In the posterior I’ll use a full contour zirconia and in the anterior I’ll use a BruxZir Esthetic/Katana type material.

This patient was OON so they paid UCR fees.

 

[KurgerBing]

as someone who's going to graduate in a few months with $340k worth of debt in a saturated metropolitan area, I would not recommend going into dentistry if you're mainly in it for the money. there are other professions that make much more money in less time and stress nowadays

 

[TanMan]

They are. I’m personally not a fan of CEREC after using it extensively. Maybe if so I was doing zirconia instead of e.max it would be different. Zirconia is a very conservative prep and very strong material.

Anyway, bread and butter crown and bridge is still very lucrative. Today I did an anterior RCT/BU/Crown and produced >$3K on that case in one hour.

Have you considered getting an MCXL Dry Mill or Primemill w/ a speedfire oven? It's a definite game changer.

 

[drornot]

as someone who's going to graduate in a few months with $340k worth of debt in a saturated metropolitan area, I would not recommend going into dentistry if you're mainly in it for the money. there are other professions that make much more money in less time and stress nowadays

People say this all the time. But which professions are you talking about?

 

[charlestweed]

I appreciate your perspective. The thing that I’m stuck on is why it seems like practice ownership is ESSENTIAL. If I can make $200K as an associate working just 4 days a week at some point in my career, why do I NEED to take out a loan to open a practice and have the headaches of running a business. I get that the income potential is significantly greater but what if I don’t really mind taking that pay cut in place of less responsibilities? Maybe I’m missing the point here and you can correct my thinking.

Seriously reconsidering my path because of how practice ownership is so heavily emphasized.

I guess it depends on what you want in life. If you want to live in a neighborhood where most doctors and lawyers live, drive a new luxury car every 2-3 years, take vacations 2-3 times/year, put your kids in private schools, save enough for your retirement (so you can continue to have such comfortable lifestyle when you are no longer able to work) etc, then working 4 days a week as an associate for the rest of your life will not be enough. It’s good that you plan to practice in Florida, where there is zero state income tax. A 200k/year income is definitely not enough, if you live here in Orange County, California, where a simple 1200sf 3 bed 2 bath house costs close to $1million and a gallon of gas costs more than $5.

I used to think like you when I was a dental student and an ortho resident. Before graduation, I sold a lot of my ortho instruments to my co-residents because unlike my co-residents, I didn’t plan to open my own practice. My wife, who is also a dentist, kept pushing me to open my own practice but I refused to listen to her. That’s because the corps I worked for paid me very well ($220-230k/year….and that’s considered a lot 20 years ago). After about 4 years, I finally listened to my wife....I took the risk and opened a small office. With my own practice + my P/T associate job at the corp, my income tripled in just a few years. Being an owner, I get to set my own work schedule. I work on Saturdays and Sundays but if I need to take a vacation or attend a sport event with my kids, I can easily block those weekend days. I paid off my last debt (the home mortgage) last year. I’ve just turned 50. Work is now a hobby for me. Many of my colleagues, who are at my age, still have a lot of debts to pay back.

If you don’t plan to get married (and have kids) and you only have to support yourself, then I guess you should be fine with working for someone else for the rest of your life. Just keep in mind there are a lot of headaches and stress working for someone else also. Nothing in life is easy. The more money you make, the harder you have to work (ie the more patients you have to deal with) and the more responsibility you have to assume.

 

[drornot]

I guess it depends on what you want in life. If you want to live in a neighborhood where most doctors and lawyers live, drive a new luxury car every 2-3 years, take vacations 2-3 times/year, put your kids in private schools, save enough for your retirement (so you can continue to have such comfortable lifestyle when you are no longer able to work) etc, then working 4 days a week as an associate for the rest of your life will not be enough. It’s good that you plan to practice in Florida, where there is zero state income tax. A 200k/year income is definitely not enough, if you live here in Orange County, California, where a simple 1200sf 3 bed 2 bath house costs close to $1million and a gallon of gas costs more than $5.

I used to think like you when I was a dental student and an ortho resident. Before graduation, I sold a lot of my ortho instruments to my co-residents because unlike my co-residents, I didn’t plan to open my own practice. My wife, who is also a dentist, kept pushing me to open my own practice but I refused to listen to her. That’s because the corps I worked for paid me very well ($220-230k/year….and that’s considered a lot 20 years ago). After about 4 years, I finally listened to my wife....I took the risk and opened a small office. With my own practice + my P/T associate job at the corp, my income tripled in just a few years. Being an owner, I get to set my own work schedule. I work on Saturdays and Sundays but if I need to take a vacation or attend a sport event with my kids, I can easily block those weekend days. I paid off my last debt (the home mortgage) last year. I’ve just turned 50. Work is now a hobby for me. Many of my colleagues, who are at my age, still have a lot of debts to pay back.

If you don’t plan to get married (and have kids) and you only have to support yourself, then I guess you should be fine with working for someone else for the rest of your life. Just keep in mind there are a lot of headaches and stress working for someone else also. Nothing in life is easy. The more money you make, the harder you have to work (ie the more patients you have to deal with) and the more responsibility you have to assume.

Thank you for the response. I understood everything you were saying up until I got to the last paragraph. If I don’t plan to get married (and have kids), AKA being single, then I should okay making $200K? Why does this make it seem like I’m barely scraping by? Even if I’m paying $3500+ in student loans every month (for only 10 years, not my entire career), after taxes I’m still going to have well over $100K take home. And after I turn 37, I’m going to be taking home $42,000 MORE every year on top of what is already $100K+ because I don’t need to pay student debt. Most family/household incomes don’t even add up to $100K. So this is the part that confuses me most because it makes it seem like these numbers just don’t work as an associate.

Correct me if I’m wrong. I’m just appalled by the way that was written because it makes me feel like I’m seriously missing something, or that I’m not accounting for a certain expense that I don’t know about.

 

[somefuturedoc]

Thank you for the response. I understood everything you were saying up until I got to the last paragraph. If I don’t plan to get married (and have kids), AKA being single, then I should okay making $200K? Why does this make it seem like I’m barely scraping by? Even if I’m paying $3500+ in student loans every month (for only 10 years, not my entire career), after taxes I’m still going to have well over $100K take home. And after I turn 37, I’m going to be taking home $42,000 MORE every year on top of what is already $100K+ because I don’t need to pay student debt. Most family/household incomes don’t even add up to $100K. So this is the part that confuses me most because it makes it seem like these numbers just don’t work as an associate.

Correct me if I’m wrong. I’m just appalled by the way that was written because it makes me feel like I’m seriously missing something, or that I’m not accounting for a certain expense that I don’t know about.

I think what they mean is that associating for life will not make you “rich”. $200k is still comfortable and still more than most people make. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with being content as an associate.

 

[schmoob]

Thank you for the response. I understood everything you were saying up until I got to the last paragraph. If I don’t plan to get married (and have kids), AKA being single, then I should okay making $200K? Why does this make it seem like I’m barely scraping by? Even if I’m paying $3500+ in student loans every month (for only 10 years, not my entire career), after taxes I’m still going to have well over $100K take home. And after I turn 37, I’m going to be taking home $42,000 MORE every year on top of what is already $100K+ because I don’t need to pay student debt. Most family/household incomes don’t even add up to $100K. So this is the part that confuses me most because it makes it seem like these numbers just don’t work as an associate.

Correct me if I’m wrong. I’m just appalled by the way that was written because it makes me feel like I’m seriously missing something, or that I’m not accounting for a certain expense that I don’t know about.

Having a family costs way more than $3500 a month. It really changes things.

Before I was a dentist and when I was single I was making maybe $3K a month take-home. I was in my early 20s, had a roommate, and ended up with more disposable income than I knew what to do with. Now with a family, two cars, bigger place, bills, etc, a six figure income isn’t exactly considered riches.

It’s not about how much you make. It’s about how much you keep.

 

[charlestweed]

Thank you for the response. I understood everything you were saying up until I got to the last paragraph. If I don’t plan to get married (and have kids), AKA being single, then I should okay making $200K? Why does this make it seem like I’m barely scraping by? Even if I’m paying $3500+ in student loans every month (for only 10 years, not my entire career), after taxes I’m still going to have well over $100K take home. And after I turn 37, I’m going to be taking home $42,000 MORE every year on top of what is already $100K+ because I don’t need to pay student debt. Most family/household incomes don’t even add up to $100K. So this is the part that confuses me most because it makes it seem like these numbers just don’t work as an associate.

Correct me if I’m wrong. I’m just appalled by the way that was written because it makes me feel like I’m seriously missing something, or that I’m not accounting for a certain expense that I don’t know about.

Wait until you have a family of your own and you shall see. That $100k take home amount (or $8333 a month) vanishes quickly when you have kids. With 2 kids, you can’t just live in a 2 bed 2 bath condo. You’ll need at least a 4 bed 3 bath house, which will easily cost you $600-800k in Florida (or $1.2-1.3 millions in CA). A monthly home mortgage payment + property tax + insurance + maintenance will be at $5-6k/month for a $600-800k house. A car payment + insurance + gas +maintenance for a $50k car will set you back at least $1k a month. Most dentists work as independent contractors. This means that you’ll have to pay for your own malpractice, health, disability insurances. Health insurance for a family of 4 will be around $1300 a month and insurance companies raise the premium every year. Hopefully, your spouse has a job that provides health benefit so you won’t have to buy one. When your kids are younger, you will need to pay for childcare service so you and your spouse can go to work….that’s at least $2k a month. When you kids are old enough to drive, you’ll have to add them to your insurance plan….that’s another $1500 for 6 months. You also have to save for your kids’ college educations if you want them to have as little student loan debt as possible. A week vacation to Hawaii for a family of 4 easily costs you more than $10k. You also need to put some of your income away (401k, Sep IRA) for your future retirement. You can’t just rely on the social security money that the government is supposed to save for you when you retire. The list goes on and on.

I’ve seen a lot of young doctors and dentists who think they make a lot of money and therefore, they go out and buy a lot of expensive things for themselves. They had suffered for so long (8+ years of schooling and living the below the poverty level). They want instant gratification. They didn’t think about investing and saving for their retirements. They think they are still young and should have plenty of time to pay back the debts. Time goes by very quickly. By the time they retire, they have nothing…..except for the house that they paid off. The thing with dentistry is it’s a physically demanding job. As you get older, your back starts to hurt and you won’t be able to produce as much as when you were younger.

How do you manage to owe so little loan ($250k) for dental school? Do your parents help pay for part of it?

 

[drornot]

Wait until you have a family of your own and you shall see. That $100k take home amount (or $8333 a month) vanishes quickly when you have kids. With 2 kids, you can’t just live in a 2 bed 2 bath condo. You’ll need at least a 4 bed 3 bath house, which will easily cost you $600-800k in Florida (or $1.2-1.3 millions in CA). A monthly home mortgage payment + property tax + insurance + maintenance will be at $5-6k/month for a $600-800k house. A car payment + insurance + gas +maintenance for a $50k car will set you back at least $1k a month. Most dentists work as independent contractors. This means that you’ll have to pay for your own malpractice, health, disability insurances. Health insurance for a family of 4 will be around $1300 a month and insurance companies raise the premium every year. Hopefully, your spouse has a job that provides health benefit so you won’t have to buy one. When your kids are younger, you will need to pay for childcare service so you and your spouse can go to work….that’s at least $2k a month. When you kids are old enough to drive, you’ll have to add them to your insurance plan….that’s another $1500 for 6 months. You also have to save for your kids’ college educations if you want them to have as little student loan debt as possible. A week vacation to Hawaii for a family of 4 easily costs you more than $10k. You also need to put some of your income away (401k, Sep IRA) for your future retirement. You can’t just rely on the social security money that the government is supposed to save for you when you retire. The list goes on and on.

I’ve seen a lot of young doctors and dentists who think they make a lot of money and therefore, they go out and buy a lot of expensive things for themselves. They had suffered for so long (8+ years of schooling and living the below the poverty level). They want instant gratification. They didn’t think about investing and saving for their retirements. They think they are still young and should have plenty of time to pay back the debts. Time goes by very quickly. By the time they retire, they have nothing…..except for the house that they paid off. The thing with dentistry is it’s a physically demanding job. As you get older, your back starts to hurt and you won’t be able to produce as much as when you were younger.

How do you manage to owe so little loan ($250k) for dental school? Do your parents help pay for part of it?

Are the benefits no included in associate positions? Such as medical/dental/malpractice insurance. I see houses for much cheaper in my area (around 400-500) and I would going to a much cheaper school that’s why

 

[charlestweed]

Are the benefits no included in associate positions? Such as medical/dental/malpractice insurance. I see houses for much cheaper in my area (around 400-500) and I would going to a much cheaper school that’s why

Some corp offices (many don't) pay for malpractice insurance but it only covers the office location, where you work at. If you choose to work 1-2 more days/week somewhere else for additional income, you’ll have to buy your own malpractice insurance. Most private offices don’t offer any benefit….no sick pay, no vacation pay, no health insurance……nada.

You sure can buy one of those $4-500k houses. A lot of doctors, who earn more than $200k income, feel they deserve to live in a much better house….in a nicer neighborhood where most doctors and lawyers live. Like I said before, it depends on what you want in life.

I didn’t know dental schools that have the total cost of attendance below $250k still exist.

 

[schmoob]

Wait until you have a family of your own and you shall see. That $100k take home amount (or $8333 a month) vanishes quickly when you have kids. With 2 kids, you can’t just live in a 2 bed 2 bath condo. You’ll need at least a 4 bed 3 bath house, which will easily cost you $600-800k in Florida (or $1.2-1.3 millions in CA). A monthly home mortgage payment + property tax + insurance + maintenance will be at $5-6k/month for a $600-800k house. A car payment + insurance + gas +maintenance for a $50k car will set you back at least $1k a month. Most dentists work as independent contractors. This means that you’ll have to pay for your own malpractice, health, disability insurances. Health insurance for a family of 4 will be around $1300 a month and insurance companies raise the premium every year. Hopefully, your spouse has a job that provides health benefit so you won’t have to buy one. When your kids are younger, you will need to pay for childcare service so you and your spouse can go to work….that’s at least $2k a month. When you kids are old enough to drive, you’ll have to add them to your insurance plan….that’s another $1500 for 6 months. You also have to save for your kids’ college educations if you want them to have as little student loan debt as possible. A week vacation to Hawaii for a family of 4 easily costs you more than $10k. You also need to put some of your income away (401k, Sep IRA) for your future retirement. You can’t just rely on the social security money that the government is supposed to save for you when you retire. The list goes on and on.

I’ve seen a lot of young doctors and dentists who think they make a lot of money and therefore, they go out and buy a lot of expensive things for themselves. They had suffered for so long (8+ years of schooling and living the below the poverty level). They want instant gratification. They didn’t think about investing and saving for their retirements. They think they are still young and should have plenty of time to pay back the debts. Time goes by very quickly. By the time they retire, they have nothing…..except for the house that they paid off. The thing with dentistry is it’s a physically demanding job. As you get older, your back starts to hurt and you won’t be able to produce as much as when you were younger.

How do you manage to owe so little loan ($250k) for dental school? Do your parents help pay for part of it?

This is freaking SPOT ON. The only thing is a pay WAY more for health insurance premiums but we have no deductible and an incredibly low out of pocket maximum in the event something happens. I also have two cars. I also pay for private school for my kids because the public schools near me are not very good.

 

[D1Bound]

Thank you for the response. I understood everything you were saying up until I got to the last paragraph. If I don’t plan to get married (and have kids), AKA being single, then I should okay making $200K? Why does this make it seem like I’m barely scraping by? Even if I’m paying $3500+ in student loans every month (for only 10 years, not my entire career), after taxes I’m still going to have well over $100K take home. And after I turn 37, I’m going to be taking home $42,000 MORE every year on top of what is already $100K+ because I don’t need to pay student debt. Most family/household incomes don’t even add up to $100K. So this is the part that confuses me most because it makes it seem like these numbers just don’t work as an associate.

Correct me if I’m wrong. I’m just appalled by the way that was written because it makes me feel like I’m seriously missing something, or that I’m not accounting for a certain expense that I don’t know about.

I wouldn’t think in terms of average income. Don’t be average. Be excellent. Be the doctor that’s going to bring in 500-800k a year. Academically if you shoot for average, are you a very good doctor? So why are we talking about going for average income as well? Aim to be an owner, or have multiple streams of income, or a well off specialist endo, ortho, OS, whatever.

 

[drornot]

I wouldn’t think in terms of average income. Don’t be average. Be excellent. Be the doctor that’s going to bring in 500-800k a year. Academically if you shoot for average, are you a very good doctor? So why are we talking about going for average income as well? Aim to be an owner, or have multiple streams of income, or a well off specialist endo, ortho, OS, whatever.

I just don’t consider an income of $200K really average though. I’m saying it’s above average. Some people would prefer to focus on clinical dentistry rather than the business. I get that $500K is a ton more but if I don’t necessarily want to own then I wouldn’t mind not having that income. Not many other professions can get you $200K a year

 

[2thDoc11]

I just don’t consider an income of $200K really average though. I’m saying it’s above average. Some people would prefer to focus on clinical dentistry rather than the business. I get that $500K is a ton more but if I don’t necessarily want to own then I wouldn’t mind not having that income. Not many other professions can get you $200K a year

There are plenty of states/areas where you can live very comfortably making that amount. It’s just less likely in states like Florida and California if you are shooting for that type of lifestyle as described above.

 

[drornot]

There are plenty of states/areas where you can live very comfortably making that amount. It’s just less likely in states like Florida and California if you are shooting for that type of lifestyle as described above.

Florida is one of the cheapest states to live in? We have no state income text and real estate is cheaper

 

[charlestweed]

I wouldn’t think in terms of average income. Don’t be average. Be excellent. Be the doctor that’s going to bring in 500-800k a year. Academically if you shoot for average, are you a very good doctor? So why are we talking about going for average income as well? Aim to be an owner, or have multiple streams of income, or a well off specialist endo, ortho, OS, whatever.

To be above average, you have to work hard and make a lot of sacrifices. Not a lot of people are willing to do that because there are other priorities in life beside work....such as family, kids, personal health, hobbies, vacation time etc. It’s much easier to put a lot more effort on your job/your own office when you are young/healthy and don’t have any kid. By the time your kids are old enough and need your attention, you already finish paying back all your debts.....and you no longer need to earn an “above average” income. That’s why I always tell young college kids to work hard in school…don’t take gap year(s)….graduate on time…start making money right away and become financially independent as soon as possible. Life is too short.

 

[charlestweed]

I just don’t consider an income of $200K really average though. I’m saying it’s above average. Some people would prefer to focus on clinical dentistry rather than the business. I get that $500K is a ton more but if I don’t necessarily want to own then I wouldn’t mind not having that income. Not many other professions can get you $200K a year

It’s not easy to find an associate job that pays $200k for working only 4 days/week. That’s equivalent to making $1000 a day. To get such good job, you have to be good and fast….you have to earn the trust from the patients and the owner doctor….and the office has to have a lot of patients to keep you busy. The associate dentist who earns $200k for working only 4 days a week is definitely not an average dentist. The average pay for new grad dentist at most places is around $500-600/day or $120k/year.

If you don’t plan to open your own dental office, then I think pharmacy might be a better option for you. You will graduate with lower student loan debt. And you don’t have to worry about getting hand and back problems. I believe the pharmacists who work for big corps (CVS, Walgreen, Walmart, Costco etc) get benefits like 401k, health insurance, sick pays, holiday pays. People pursue dentistry because of the clear advantage that it has over pharmacy ….and that is you can own a practice and be your own boss.

 

[yappy]

I just don’t consider an income of $200K really average though. I’m saying it’s above average. Some people would prefer to focus on clinical dentistry rather than the business. I get that $500K is a ton more but if I don’t necessarily want to own then I wouldn’t mind not having that income. Not many other professions can get you $200K a year

You will be able to focus on the clinical aspects of dentistry more as an owner than an associate. If your aim is to be the best dentist you can be clinically, the last thing you want to do is work for someone else according to their templating and philosophy. That will dictate how much time you get with each patient and, indirectly, determine which procedures you can do for your patients. You don't have to start off as a owner/partner. If you go to dental school you will likely associate for a few years after graduation, gain confidence, and realize you can do practice ownership equal or better than the clinic you're working at.

I think if you're not really fascinated by the day to day work of being a dentist you should do something else. You owe yourself that because the training is long and the work is difficulty. Why not do something you actually want to do? All the careers you're looking into are quality careers, so you cannot choose wrong unless it's something you don't actually want to do.

EDIT: No, I don't think being a dentist is bad. But this is subjective and others may feel that it is. All that really matters is what you think.

 

[Screwtape]

It’s not easy to find an associate job that pays $200k for working only 4 days/week. That’s equivalent to making $1000 a day. To get such good job, you have to be good and fast….you have to earn the trust from the patients and the owner doctor….and the office has to have a lot of patients to keep you busy. The associate dentist who earns $200k for working only 4 days a week is definitely not an average dentist. The average pay for new grad dentist at most places is around $500-600/day or $120k/year.

If you don’t plan to open your own dental office, then I think pharmacy might be a better option for you. You will graduate with lower student loan debt. And you don’t have to worry about getting hand and back problems. I believe the pharmacists who work for big corps (CVS, Walgreen, Walmart, Costco etc) get benefits like 401k, health insurance, sick pays, holiday pays. People pursue dentistry because of the clear advantage that it has over pharmacy ….and that is you can own a practice and be your own boss.

Have you worked mostly in saturated areas? I believe your thoughts and advice are true for very saturated areas, but more rural ish areas I don’t think this is true. I can’t say for sure since I’ve never worked there but I bet there are lots of rural ish areas in central Florida where $1000+ a day associateships should be pretty easy to find. I’m in the Midwest and was doing $200k+ by my second year as an associate (area of ~500k). I also had lots of benefits. About half of my friends who are still associates are in the $200k+ range (with lots of benefits). Some I wouldn’t even include as rural (again in areas of ~500K), but rural is a subjective term. None of my friends who are associates in saturated areas (ie LA and Denver) are above $200k and have worse benefits, but benefits nonetheless. OP—Look at job postings or even call around to dental recruiters and ask what’s a normal range for an associate dentist where you are planning on living. Compensation in dentistry is very geographically dependent.