Mount Sinai vs Albert Einstein?

[mdeast]

Ok, I see. This is another US news number that does not have much value. That is because Einstein have three times as many faculty members as Sinai (about 3K for Einstein whereas Sinai have only about a thousand). Maybe Einstein have a lot more part time faculty member compared to Sinai, I do not know. That's why the number is slightly low for Einstein. I do not think you are attacking Einstein and I am not trying to take anything away from Sinai, I just think the difference between Sinai and Einstein is not significant enough for one to give up over 80K in scholarship money to pick one over the other. I rest my case here.

I think it's significant enough to consider not taking the money. I think we determined 64k?. Would it be of more value if the published numbers were the same for Sinai and Einstein for all these metrics? LOL.

They use the same rules to qualify what faculty members are included in that statistic for each school. If anything, this just indicates that a larger majority of the faculty at Einstein aren't research-based. They are practicing physicians who aren't academic leaders in their fields. The mentality is different at Sinai, I'm trying to make the distinction that the environments/faculty are different between the two schools. I would normally never rely on such metrics to make a decision, but you claimed that my subjective opinions were useless so I tried to provide something else, more concrete. I get the feeling that basically anything I say trying to differentiate Sinai from Einstein is going to be shot down.

At my Stanford interview, I had a 5-minute string of questioning where my interviewer tried to gauge my understanding of the difficulty of entering academic medicine (because that's what I was interested in). After, he commented on his own journey. He was an Einstein grad and told me that his med school institution wasn't focused on research and that he didn't get great experiences there as a medical student with regards to publishing and conducting original research, because "that wasn't the focus of Einstein, like it is here at Stanford". He struggled and had to spend two extra years in fellowship to prove his research capacity. Again, an anecdote...but reasons why I was never really keen on Einstein as a powerful academic center.

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[Infinitydrop]

OP, I do think SDN does take sinai in a more positive light because of its association with NYC and its rankings and it is often compared with cornell, columbia, nyu and so forth. Actual prestige wise, i think its more of a wash between the 2 schools. No one outside of a very small bubble will recognize either of the schools. Besides Einstein was not so long ago ranked 21st so making you decision based on flimsy rankings rather than cold hard cash is......

Given no money, i think its obvious you should pick sinai (better location, better current ranking), but someone is GIVING you 80k to go to medical school. Trust me you will never make 80k+interest as easily ever again in life. I do believe that the perceived difference between the 2 schools is bigger than real differences in education. And preceived "funness" of nyc is also more so than reality. Face it, most of the stuff in nyc that makes it awesome, you won;t be able to afford. and everytime you go out to have fun, you are borrowing that money plus interest to do it.

 

[loljkttyl]

Face it, most of the stuff in nyc that makes it awesome, you won;t be able to afford.

While NYC can be expensive, there are actually many FREE events that you can more easily and conveniently take advantage of by living in Manhattan rather than living in the Bronx:

- Central Park (only 2 blocks away!): free jogging/bike riding, free to play Frisbee, free to play tennis in Central Park in the offseason, free NY Philharmonic concerts in the summer, free to have a picnic in the park whenever you want (minus the cost of the food)
- Museums: MOMA and Gugghenheim are both free one day of the week at specified times, Met is pay as you wish everyday, Museum of City of New York is free with Sinai ID, most museums in the city are free if you go with a friend in i-banking/consulting (b/c most have a special pass)
- Concerts: there are free concerts at Rockefeller Center and Bryant Park every summer
- Nightlife: there are free open bars every week, you can also get into many nightclubs for free if you signup for the guestlist and arrive early
- TV: you can get free tix to talk shows (David Letterman, Jon Stewart, etc), free to watch them filming Gossip Girl or 24 (which both filmed in NYC this past year)
- Events: free to watch NYC marathon, free to go watch the ball drop in Times Square on New Years Eve!
- Other: free to use Aron Hall gym, free to use 92Y gym as a Sinai student, free to use ping pong table in student lounge, free to use foosball table in Aron Hall lounge

Bottom line: there are many perks to living in Manhattan, and to many people, this experience may be PRICELESS!

 

[mdeast]

OP, I do think SDN does take sinai in a more positive light because of its association with NYC and its rankings and it is often compared with cornell, columbia, nyu and so forth. Actual prestige wise, i think its more of a wash between the 2 schools. No one outside of a very small bubble will recognize either of the schools. Besides Einstein was not so long ago ranked 21st so making you decision based on flimsy rankings rather than cold hard cash is......

Given no money, i think its obvious you should pick sinai (better location, better current ranking), but someone is GIVING you 80k to go to medical school. Trust me you will never make 80k+interest as easily ever again in life. I do believe that the perceived difference between the 2 schools is bigger than real differences in education. And preceived "funness" of nyc is also more so than reality. Face it, most of the stuff in nyc that makes it awesome, you won;t be able to afford. and everytime you go out to have fun, you are borrowing that money plus interest to do it.

While I agree the lay-person might not recognize the difference...that small bubble includes residency directors on the East Coast. So yes, it does matter to an extent. I'm not saying that Einstein at Sinai differences are akin to...let's say...Harvard and Drexel. But I think there is a difference.

I don't agree with the fun part. I also don't agree with the money. NYC really isn't that terribly expensive once you have an apartment. The housing is the real killer. But housing at Sinai is under $600/month. Housing is cheap at Einstein too...what was it, $450/month? I think. That's leaves a lot leftover to spend on food, drinks, fun, taking advantage of all the free stuff Manhattan has to offer. Maybe... just a picnic lunch in Bryant Park and some time studying in the Public Library. Maybe a random night of bowling at the Chelsea Pier and some drinks afterwards. In both cases (Sinai or Einstein), you'll have a decent amount of money from "living expenses" that you can devote to fun stuff if you so choose without getting yourself into a ridiculous amount of debt. These things are way more easily accessed living at Sinai.

People have this myth that medical school is 24/7 studying and that we all should sacrifice the entirety of our 20's to save $100-$200/month off of our future debt. It just isn't like that...talk to medical students. It's tough, but especially given that most M1 and M2 year lectures are recorded online, much of your schedule becomes completely flexible. You will have time: many medical students have active lives outside of medical school. They go to bars! They go to concerts! They work out, attend dance classes, keep up with musical pursuits. They eat out sometimes!

These things are important to me, and I was noting that they become a way bigger hassle living in the Bronx than they are living on the UES. This I think is the thing I disliked most about Einstein, most students seemed to adapt to a sort of undergrad existence...go to class, go back to my dorm room, maybe get into Manhattan once or twice a month. At Sinai, have a stressful day? Go for a walk in the park, it's two blocks away, beautiful and filled with people who aren't from Sinai. Wanna get away from all these medical students you spend 6 hours with a day? Hop on a subway and you're in mid-town in 10 minutes. For me, there are serious differences in lifestyle between the two schools. Maybe this is completely insignificant for some people. But it was significant for me. My point being...if you live in Manhattan, you will get to take advantage of many of both the free and the not-so-free stuff as a medical student.

 

[Infinitydrop]

Have you ever lived in nyc before? Yes, housing is a killer but everything just cost more in general. Going out is really expensive (at least 50-100 bucks a night). Almost everywhere charges a cover. Central park is nice, but it also can get touristy and crowded. You will def end up spending more money than if you lived elsewhere, but of course you will have more fun too. But i just can'timagine it would be every fun to think about 200k debt everytime you whip put your wallet.

i am almost certain that if you do just as well at einstein, you will have the same chances at all residencies. The only real reason to not follow the money in this case is if 1) you are dead set on living in NYC 2) your ego simply can't take going to a less highly ranked school.

 

[jbz24]

Have you ever lived in nyc before? Yes, housing is a killer but everything just cost more in general. Going out is really expensive (at least 50-100 bucks a night). Almost everywhere charges a cover. Central park is nice, but it also can get touristy and crowded. You will def end up spending more money than if you lived elsewhere, but of course you will have more fun too. But i just can'timagine it would be every fun to think about 200k debt everytime you whip put your wallet.

i am almost certain that if you do just as well at einstein, you will have the same chances at all residencies. The only real reason to not follow the money in this case is if 1) you are dead set on living in NYC 2) your ego simply can't take going to a less highly ranked school.

I agree that NYC is expensive, but it's really no more expensive than any other large urban area. Going out for dinner will cost you $15-20, going to a movie will cost $10, getting a drink at a bar will cost $5-6. If you plan to go out and drink the entire weekend, yes it will add up. But most people just pre-game to make it cheaper. I've never spent even close to $100 for a night unless it was a special event with my girlfriend. There are other reasons why it's not as expensive as it seems. You don't need a car and don't have to worry about insurance, gas, repairs (oddly enough, at Einstein many people do need and own a car). Sinai and Einstein are both very cheap for a private school with great cheap housing options. Tuition and costs at other NYC schools, like Columbia and Cornell, are 8k more per year. So while NYC seems expensive, it's not as bad as it seems and both Sinai and Einstein are great deals (compared to other private schools), although Sinai is in Manhattan, which is a much better place to be for a student than the Bronx is.

I do think Sinai provides an advantage over Einstein when it comes to match time. Hypothetically speaking, even if outside residency directors don't see much of a difference between the two schools, Sinai students get first dibs at Sinai residency spots. Since Sinai residency spots are significantly better than Einstein spots (except for maybe social medicine, which is better at Einstein), this is a huge advantage.

 

[flip26]

I agree that NYC is expensive, but it's really no more expensive than any other large urban area. Going out for dinner will cost you $15-20, going to a movie will cost $10, getting a drink at a bar will cost $5-6. If you plan to go out and drink the entire weekend, yes it will add up. But most people just pre-game to make it cheaper. I've never spent even close to $100 for a night unless it was a special event with my girlfriend. There are other reasons why it's not as expensive as it seems. You don't need a car and don't have to worry about insurance, gas, repairs (oddly enough, at Einstein many people do need and own a car). Sinai and Einstein are both very cheap for a private school with great cheap housing options. Tuition and costs at other NYC schools, like Columbia and Cornell, are 8k more per year. So while NYC seems expensive, it's not as bad as it seems and both Sinai and Einstein are great deals (compared to other private schools), although Sinai is in Manhattan, which is a much better place to be for a student than the Bronx is.

I do think Sinai provides an advantage over Einstein when it comes to match time. Hypothetically speaking, even if outside residency directors don't see much of a difference between the two schools, Sinai students get first dibs at Sinai residency spots. Since Sinai residency spots are significantly better than Einstein spots (except for maybe social medicine, which is better at Einstein), this is a huge advantage.

Way too broad a claim here.

 

[jbz24]

Way too broad a claim here.

Let me change the word "better" to "more competitive." Do you think that's too broad?

 

[loljkttyl]

Have you ever lived in nyc before? ...Going out is really expensive (at least 50-100 bucks a night). Almost everywhere charges a cover.

Yes, I live in NYC, and no it doesn't have to be that expensive if you find clever ways to get around it. The trick is to find and plan cheap events in advance rather than just showing up to a club and playing $25 cover.

For example:
- for free open bars: http://nyc.myopenbar.com/
- for free/discounted club guestlists: http://www.clubplanet.com/US/New-York/guestlists

Also, when your friends host their bday parties at clubs/lounges, you usually get in for free.

I've never spent more than $50 bucks a night, but maybe I just don't party as hard as you do

Of course, you can still do all this if you live outside Manhattan, but the main downside is the difficult/lengthy commute back home at 2 am...

 

[mdeast]

Have you ever lived in nyc before? Yes, housing is a killer but everything just cost more in general. Going out is really expensive (at least 50-100 bucks a night). Almost everywhere charges a cover. Central park is nice, but it also can get touristy and crowded. You will def end up spending more money than if you lived elsewhere, but of course you will have more fun too. But i just can'timagine it would be every fun to think about 200k debt everytime you whip put your wallet.

i am almost certain that if you do just as well at einstein, you will have the same chances at all residencies. The only real reason to not follow the money in this case is if 1) you are dead set on living in NYC 2) your ego simply can't take going to a less highly ranked school.

I go to NYC all the time. I live in the sixth borough (aka. Philadelphia).

NYC really isn't that bad...I mainly gripe about the housing market, because places like Philly offer cheaper options of better quality. Going out is basically the same as other cities. There are expensive places to avoid, and cheaper locales that are still fun. We went to two bars on Sinai revisit and I think I ended up paying about $15 on four drinks (including portions of pitchers of beer).

I lived in London when the pound was worth $2 and still had a lot of fun there for the cheap (London is undoubtedly a more expensive city than NYC for Americans). Urban centers have everything, even if you aren't uber wealthy...but of course, also if you are.

 

[loljkttyl]

...going to a movie will cost $10...

Mount Sinai's Recreation Office offers many discounts. Going to a movie is actually only $7-8

For more info: http://fusion.mssm.edu/recreation/things.cfm

 

[KidProQuo]

I am in a similar boat as the OP, just comparing Sinai to UMass (great rep in MA and "ranking-wise" #7 in primary care). I'm really stuck on the money issue, since UMass will save me about 55+k over all 4 years. I know a lot of people are saying that money isn't too much, but I'm mixed on it. In the whole grand scale of our life, it might not be that much. However, you have to realize that loans are taken out in a 10 year repayment period with an interest rate of at least 6% (that's on a very low end estimate). If you calculate how much 55k with 6% interest rate over 10 years is, that's $610 monthly payment OVER the already existing loans you'll have taken (which will in reality probably push your interest rate to at 7% actually). $600 every month after tax for the first 10 years out of medical school is pretty large, especially if you plan to have a life. With different numbers, 80k with 7% interest is $930 per month.

Well, that's just my financial perspective on the issue.

Numbers are generated from http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/mortgages/loan-calculator.aspx It's not a mortgage, but loans work similarly last time I checked

 

[jbz24]

I am in a similar boat as the OP, just comparing Sinai to UMass (great rep in MA and "ranking-wise" #7 in primary care). I'm really stuck on the money issue, since UMass will save me about 55+k over all 4 years. I know a lot of people are saying that money isn't too much, but I'm mixed on it. In the whole grand scale of our life, it might not be that much. However, you have to realize that loans are taken out in a 10 year repayment period with an interest rate of at least 6% (that's on a very low end estimate). If you calculate how much 55k with 6% interest rate over 10 years is, that's $610 monthly payment OVER the already existing loans you'll have taken (which will in reality probably push your interest rate to at 7% actually). $600 every month after tax for the first 10 years out of medical school is pretty large, especially if you plan to have a life. With different numbers, 80k with 7% interest is $930 per month.

Well, that's just my financial perspective on the issue.

Numbers are generated from http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/mortgages/loan-calculator.aspx It's not a mortgage, but loans work similarly last time I checked

It's hard to really compare schools when money is an issue because you will hear different viewpoints about this matter. For 55k, I care more about location, fit, and prestige, but as you can see on this thread many people disagree. What are you leaning towards? Sounds like you are from Mass., do you prefer Worcester over NYC? Also, I would say Sinai and Einstein are closer in prestige than Sinai and UMass. Primary care rankings don't really mean anything.

 

[stellina]

So I went back to both schools and talked to students. I do like Einstein, but I also feel that I wont have an escape from medicine. The person I met with went to my undergrad in NYC, and they feel like they are stuck in the Bronx. When I picture my free time at Einstein, I have no idea what I would do, except study. If I have 3 hours to kill on a given day it is too much of a hassle for me to get to the city and back. In NYC I would have so many options.

And as for price, I did my undergrad in NYC and never had any problems with money. If you know how to manage money, it's really not a big deal.

In response to the issue about interest, I am not taking out any loans that accumulate interest while I am in school. Last time I checked the mount Sinai loan does not accrue interest in residency. The rest of loans I would take out don't gain interest until residency and by then I am at least making some money.

I still have a few days, but I think I am still set on Sinai. Yes some opportunities are similar at both schools, but the location and student body have a different feel.

 

[Question123]

So I went back to both schools and talked to students. I do like Einstein, but I also feel that I wont have an escape from medicine. The person I met with went to my undergrad in NYC, and they feel like they are stuck in the Bronx. When I picture my free time at Einstein, I have no idea what I would do, except study. If I have 3 hours to kill on a given day it is too much of a hassle for me to get to the city and back. In NYC I would have so many options.

And as for price, I did my undergrad in NYC and never had any problems with money. If you know how to manage money, it's really not a big deal.

In response to the issue about interest, I am not taking out any loans that accumulate interest while I am in school. Last time I checked the mount Sinai loan does not accrue interest in residency. The rest of loans I would take out don't gain interest until residency and by then I am at least making some money.

I still have a few days, but I think I am still set on Sinai. Yes some opportunities are similar at both schools, but the location and student body have a different feel.

Could you explain the loans??? I think most of the onese Mount Sinai gave had an interest on them except for the subsidized stratford loan...

 

[mdeast]

Could you explain the loans??? I think most of the onese Mount Sinai gave had an interest on them except for the subsidized stratford loan...

Depends on what your financial aid offer is. Sinai has some institutional loans that don't carry interest until after residency...I remember them talking about this on interview day. This is based on need though. Mine was all Stafford subsidized + Stafford unsubsidized + GradPlus.

 

[Question123]

Yeah, I think Sinai went the extra distance to screw me over financially... sigh. My only (though slightly large) gripe.

 

[jbz24]

Yeah, I think Sinai went the extra distance to screw me over financially... sigh. My only (though slightly large) gripe.

You still have time to flash your other acceptance and ask for more money or better loans.

 

[flip26]

Let me change the word "better" to "more competitive." Do you think that's too broad?

Yes. You are making a blanket statement about all residencies at the 2 schools, and that is too broad a brush. You have no way of knowing or substantiating this, either.

 

[jbz24]

Yes. You are making a blanket statement about all residencies at the 2 schools, and that is too broad a brush. You have no way of knowing or substantiating this, either.

Ok, agree to disagree then.

 

[Question123]

You still have time to flash your other acceptance and ask for more money or better loans.

Ha, I have no idea how to do that (or who to talk to)...I do think I remember Sinai explicitly telling us that what we get is what we get and they don't match. If I knew what to do, I would've, but alas...

 

[jbz24]

Ha, I have no idea how to do that (or who to talk to)...I do think I remember Sinai explicitly telling us that what we get is what we get and they don't match. If I knew what to do, I would've, but alas...

I know they say that, but I wonder if people still do it and end up with a better deal...

 

[Question123]

I know they say that, but I wonder if people still do it and end up with a better deal...

Um, any idea who I email.... financial aid people?

 

[jbz24]

Um, any idea who I email.... financial aid people?

The only people I can think of are Dale Fuller and Valerie Parkas but I have no idea myself, I've never done it before.

 

[mdeast]

Um, any idea who I email.... financial aid people?

Can't hurt in trying. The worst they can say is...no I guess.

I think Dale Fuller would be the guy. Or, Liliian Negron (Financial Aid Coordinator) [email protected]. She sent me my award email.

 

[DoctwoB]

Ok, agree to disagree then.

Also, remember that a prestigious medical school doesn't equal a prestigious residency program. While there is definitely correlation (Hopkins and Harvard are pretty prestigious residencies for most programs), it varies significantly by residency/fellowship program. Columbia is a top place for neurosurgery, but not for oncology. National Jewish is a top place for allergy, but not for urology.

If you are worried about the residency factor, then look into the specialties you might want to enter and see how Sinai and Einstein are percieved within those specialties.

 

[Infinitydrop]

if you look at the 2 matchlists, they really are almost indistiguishable other than the sinai and einstein bias.

I know einstein is a bigger school, but they have a lot more urology, ortho, and radiology matches than einstein.