So I am trying to decide between Mount Sinai and Albert Einstein. I really love Sinai, but I was also surprised by how much I liked Einstein (although not a huge fan of the area). I was offered a 20K scholarship for each year from Einstein but only loans from Sinai, so this complicates the decision. If I wasnt offered the money I would go to Sinai without a second thought. My interests are global medicine as well as surgery. Any suggestions are welcome
Mount Sinai vs Albert Einstein?
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Idk about sinai but Einstein has a strong global health program that pays for your trip and i believe that almost everyone that signs up for it gets it. (i think about 4000 dollars to cover your trip)
jw is the scholarship from einstein for the research and scholars?
jw is the scholarship from einstein for the research and scholars?
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I'd still personally go to Sinai, but that's because I'm probably going there, so I'm biased. According to MSAR....
COA (Sinai): 57,990
COA (Einstein): 66,400
Sinai has lower tuition and living expenses, so the 20k turns into something closer to 11k/year when you factor in that difference. Your call on whether or not 44k over 4 years is worth it. Sinai is clearly higher ranked, and it's in Manhattan vs. The Bronx. Where do you see yourself being happier (assuming you're 44k poorer at Sinai)?
COA (Sinai): 57,990
COA (Einstein): 66,400
Sinai has lower tuition and living expenses, so the 20k turns into something closer to 11k/year when you factor in that difference. Your call on whether or not 44k over 4 years is worth it. Sinai is clearly higher ranked, and it's in Manhattan vs. The Bronx. Where do you see yourself being happier (assuming you're 44k poorer at Sinai)?
Sinai also seems to have great global health programs. Global health opportunities are very important to me in a medical school and they both have great programs. The impression that I got from Sinai was that if you want to do something (research abroad or whatever), they are more than happy to work with you.
As for the scholarship, it is the Service and Research Scholarship. I was pretty much set on Sinai until I got this scholarship.
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I am not too familiar with Sinai but Einstein has some great things going: (1) Great housing for cheap (2) Great Global Health Program (3) Good research opportunities.
With the scholarship I would personally pick Einstein. But again I am a little biased toward Einstein since I also received the S&R Scholarship and considering attending Einstein (It is hard to say "no" to free money).
I think I would be happy at either place, but definitely happier at Sinai. I absolutely love the location, and the students are very happy to be there. Traveling to Einstein was a nightmare (I basically almost got peed on ). Although Einstein students were pretty cool, the location still worries me a bit.
Also, for someone interested in surgery, I like the liver transplant team and it also seems like shadowing surgeons in my 1st and 2nd year will be relatively easy. I think one of the students on the panel also mentioned an international surgery experience.
I don't think the 44k is worth it if you have your heart set on Sinai. 44k in my opinion does not justify the difference in location and caliber of the school.
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I know. It's ridiculous.
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That's from 2 years ago. Past year (new data):
Mount Sinai: 59,777
Einstein: 66,650
So about a $6000 difference. The margin might be thinning...I know Sinai is $62k this year (at least that's what my financial aid package said). But I'm sure Einstein went up too.
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If you believe it, the CoA at Einstein actually stayed about the same. Einstein 2010-2011 CoA is $66254(http://www.einstein.yu.edu/financialaid/content.aspx?id=20054&ekmensel=15074e5e_2856_2878_btnlink). So the difference is only about 4K which means OP can save 64K+interest over the course of 4 years. This is a significant amount of money, in my opinion.
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Yup definitely a lot of money. To me it becomes a question of whether or not 64K is worth it if you prefer another school. This will probably be different for each person.
I of course have my own opinions on Einstein which I've expressed in other threads. I think I'd still choose Sinai given that decision, but I don't know the OP's opinions on how much financial aid matters. I think you have great opportunities at either school, but I think you get a better education with better research possibilities, plus you get to live in a way better area of the city (Manhattan vs. the Bronx) if you choose Sinai. Personally, that is worth 64k to me. For the OP, is it? I don't know. She seemed to like Einstein way more than I did. That's the 64 thousand dollar question, now, isn't it?
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That is true. I feel like educational opportunities wise Einstein can offer everything Sinai can. For most people, one drawback of Einstein is its location. Morris Park is kind of isolated and it takes about 45 min. to go to NYC from there via public transportation. But I actually kind of like this isolation. I feel like it will help me avoid the distractions of NYC.
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Debatable. I think you have good opportunities at either. I think Sinai has stronger faculty members who are more well known in their fields, particularly if you're interested in doing research. I think this can be very helpful for match. I also think their hospital is better (it's Top 20 US News now), and sees a more interesting mix of patients (young, old, poor, rich, white, black, etc.) than Einstein, and has stronger overall departments. Not everything though, I got the sense that Einstein had a really good ER program and Sinai was lacking in that area. Einstein also has a connection to a better Children's Hospital...which is relevant even to me, as I'm interested in peds. Also, it's not as if you won't see an incredibly diverse set of people in the Bronx. But,the mix of both wealthy Upper East Siders and Spanish Harlemites is such a incredibly unique environment (no other medical school really has this same type of diversity) that Einstein doesn't have. I was also on the whole, much more impressed by Sinai students than I was by Einstein students. They just seemed way happier to be in medical school, and way more energetic in pursuing interesting endeavors outside of class. And I know this is going to sound terribly elitist and I question taking this to heart, but when talking to Sinai students and where they were choosing from I often hear 1. State School 2. NYU/Cornell/Columbia 3. A few other top 10 and 20 schools. 4. Cali Schools. All great places. When I asked a few students at Einstein, I heard places like Downstate, SUNY Buffalo, BU. I just got a sense there was a different caliber of student at each institution.
Einstein also has the global health programs and that cool "we'll pay for your MPH wherever you want to go" extra. These seemed more well developed in a more formal sense than the ones at Sinai. But Sinai has it's own public health program (you can complete in 4 years with the MD) and a global health center as well. They also have interesting other connections...studying bioethics at Oxford or in London for example.
I think the opportunities at Sinai (for certain areas, mainly clinically and research-based) are better. Einstein does probably win on global health and MPH. In the end, I'm clearly biased because I prefer Manhattan and Sinai, but 64k is too little to justify me choosing the Bronx over 4 years of living on the UES. Hopefully I provided some pros and cons to each institution, even though I have an clear one-sided slant, which I do openly acknowledge.
I also just feel that I will want distractions while in medical school. I'll want the sanity of being able to escape the bubble of my medical school class and friends. At Sinai, your 2 blocks from a subway stop that takes you all over Manhattan within 20 minutes, or two blocks from a run or bike ride through Central Park. At Einstein, trips into the city become planned events. I just worried about ending up in some sort of medical school cocoon for 4 years because of how difficult it was to get into the more fun parts of NYC.
Going out to a gay bar in Chelsea? Sounds like a 1.5 hour trip back home...at 2 in the morning? Just not possible
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Yup definitely a lot of money. To me it becomes a question of whether or not 64K is worth it if you prefer another school. This will probably be different for each person.
I of course have my own opinions on Einstein which I've expressed in other threads. I think I'd still choose Sinai given that decision, but I don't know the OP's opinions on how much financial aid matters. I think you have great opportunities at either school, but I think you get a better education with better research possibilities, plus you get to live in a way better area of the city (Manhattan vs. the Bronx) if you choose Sinai. Personally, that is worth 64k to me. For the OP, is it? I don't know. She seemed to like Einstein way more than I did. That's the 64 thousand dollar question, now, isn't it?
Better education? Can you explain that to me without bashing in Einstein?
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I was just more impressed by the Sinai faculty and what seemed like a way higher number of students getting involved in cool activities. Everyone seemed to be volunteer at EHHOP, this amazing, award winning student run clinic. There was liver transplant team, some students already had first author papers from research, other students were shadowing clinicians in specialties they were interested in first year (even assisting on surgeries). A 5 minute conversation with a mentor has one student set up with a rotation at Stanford to shadow a cardiothorasic surgeon for 5 weeks. The faculty just seemed more respected in their fields and well connnected...but they were also really energetic about teaching (anyone at revisit can probably attest to how fun our "anatomy lesson" was). I just didn't get the same sense of passion from the few faculty I talked to at Einstein, but I also admit I had probably the worst interviewer on campus and she left a real sour taste in my mouth. The environment at Sinai just seemed so much more open to a very comfortable, approachable atmosphere (there's less a hierarchy and more so a collegial bond between students and faculty) that I felt like it would be way easier to get involved with activities that would really advance your career from a clinical or research standpoint.
I know less about Einstein because I base this off a day of interviewing there...but I just got the sense I'd be learning from better mentors at Sinai than I would at Einstein.
And just to clarify, I'm not bashing Einstein in any way...although, you can read my very subjective opinions in other threads. I'm just saying I was more impressed at Sinai.
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It sounds to me like you are very biased toward attending Sinai. When you look at the two schools from a unbiased prospective, you will see very little difference as far as quality of education one will receive as a medical student. You have mentioned US news ranking and how Sinai being ranked slightly higher somehow makes it a lot better. US news ranking does not get that much credibility in my book.
I think the diversity of patient population in Bronx is no worse than the diversity you will see at Sinai hospitals. In fact you may see more diverse patient population at Bronx hospitals. This is one of the reasons why Einstein have a strong ER recognition. Einstein have affiliations with some great hospitals (although I do not know their ranking), namely the Montefiore Medical Center, North Shore Long Island Health System, Beth Israel Medical Center,etc.
Einstein in known nationwide for having one of the most diverse entering class. I have met some very happy/Chill Einstein students during my visit. Einstein is P/F so students have great camaraderie among them.
I have no comment on this one although I know my Einstein interview day host told me that he picked Einstein over NYU and few other "prestigious" schools.
This is personal preference. Although Morris Park is kind of isolated, it is close to Botanical Garden, Bronx Zoo, Yankee Stadium, etc. So I feel like there is enough distractions if one need a break from studying. And then there is NYC a 45 min bus ride from the Einstein campus.
Overall, given the CoA is same, Sinai gets slight advantage in my opinion. But with a significant scholarship that would save one 80K (64K+interest) over the course of four years, I would pick Einstein without a doubt.
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I am sorry to hear you have had a bad interviewing experience at Einstein. My interviewer there was one of the best I have met during the whole application cycle. I am very sure there are students that had bad interviewing experience at Sinai. I remember reading a post couple weeks ago from a fellow SDN member who picked Sinai because of a scholarship she received from there but was disappointed by Sinai after the second look. What you describe makes Sinai a better fit for you but that does not make Sinai a better school than Einstein. All I have to say is that I hope you have heard of ECHO, which is a very well known student run free clinic at Einstein.
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Clearly we don't see eye to eye. That's great! It's the point of these threads, to get both ends of the spectrums. So fire away, and I shall too (without malice, but rather the passion of a constructive argument).
I don't particularly agree with some of the things you said, as you dont agree with me. But to each his own. I think Sinai attracts a better teaching faculty than Einstein does. It's a great institution, in an area that's more fun to live in at a hospital that is almost universally more well respected in the medical field. Again, this isn't to say Einstein isn't great too and well-regarded... just that I think that Sinai edges it out in a way that is significant enough that it makes a distinction between the two schools.
We can argue all day about the quality of location, but I think it's really, really hard to make the assertion that the Bronx is a better place to live than residing 2 blocks from Central Park on the UES in Manhattan in apartments that are priced well below 50% of market value. Maybe you value that sleepy atmosphere from time to time (without the hustle and bustle of Manhattan)...and maybe you don't care too much about meeting people outside of medical school. I liked the fact that I could step off campus at Sinai, head to bars with young people, many of whom weren't med students or even related to medicine in anyway. I got the sense that there wasn't anything to do like that in the Bronx, and taking the trek to Manhattan was such a pain that all of my outlets from work were going to be insular interactions with friends in my dorm room or around campus. Which is great, but not the only outlet I want from a medical school life. Maybe this isn't something that's a personal factor for you, but it is for me. My life outside of school is really important, and this seemed incredibly valued at Sinai by both students and faculty. I felt like Einstein's location made this part of your life more difficult. To some, this might matter. To others, it might not.
I also didn't read that post about the Sinai student, but I can attest that almost everyone I met at admit weekend remarked how awesome the revisit was as compared to other revisits they've been to. It gave a real flavor of what classes would be like and how down-to-earth the faculty were. Many students were deciding between Sinai and places like NYU, Cornell, Columbia, Stanford, Hopkins, Penn, etc. I met 2 prospective students admitted to Harvard there, one of whom was actually 100% attending Sinai (admittedly, mainly per personal reasons to live in NYC). I Just felt the caliber of student seemed better than my fellow interviewees when I was at Einstein (and I think I was in a good batch, as I interviewed on the second day of the admissions seasons all the way back in September). Maybe it'll end up that none of those people will come, but again, I felt like the student body was better.
Again, I admit I probably have way less experience with Einstein than you do. And, I clearly didn't like it very much, so I'm biased. Just as you are, yes, biased for Einstein. But again, I think it's good to hear the thoughts of interviewees who've been the through process at both institutions to at least confirm ideas/worries you might share with them and/or disagree with them on. Did you interview at Sinai by chance? I think your arguments might be worth more if you had the chance to visit both schools.
I think we all have our own opinions about money vs. prestige. OP, I think you will have to think this through with your family and loved ones and see what they say. It's a good decision to have even though I'm sure it's stressful.
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I think if the op thinks they'd be happier at Sinai it seems like it'd be an easy decision.
I have to say that I do agree with Mdeast on a lot of his views on Sinai. I know Einstein and Sinai are both great schools, but part of me feels like I will be more comfortable at Sinai, and that there are more opportunities at least for me there. I have spoken to many friends and family members, and even though money does matter, many have told me that I should go with Sinai if I feel so strongly about it. I will be meeting with a Sinai and Einstein student to fill in any gaps about the school. So if I am not won over by Einstein, it looks like Sinai it is. Although there is still some guilt with turning that much money down...
You feel so strongly about it, then you should go to Sinai.
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There is a HUGE pro Sinai bias on SDN. HUGE.
When I was applying for MD/PhD programs, those were two schools of interest. At Albert Einstein, there is more of a neighborhood, and the housing is cheaper and still quite nice. They have international students and focus on global health a little bit more than Sinai. That being said, Sinai has some amazing faculty members who like to have students involved in research--not sure if that is on your radar or not. However, Einstein has started a clinical research program, so they probably would have some good opportunities coming for MD's, as well.
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Biases exist on these boards partially based on real, concrete differences. Yes, SDNers may be biased towards Sinai...but doesn't that indicate something about the relative desirability of each school in the amount of interest on the boards from people who want to go there? Why aren't people biased for Einstein? Is it bad that people here who interviewed at both places really liked Sinai enough to defend it's awesomeness? This seems like a positive indicator rather than a negative even if it is "biased", which, practically....all opinions are.
My preference for Sinai over Einstein has absolutely nothing to do with US News Rankings, MCAT scores, GPAs, etc. I felt the quality of the students was better (the people you're learning with, they seemed more interesting at Sinai), the faculty seemed more esteemed and well connected (important for residency applications), the area of the city was 100x better (I just disliked the Bronx and the isolation I felt there), and the research opportunities for things I'm interested (particularly stem cell research) are leagues above Einstein. To me, the place I'm learning at, the people I'm learning with, and the people who are teaching me are very important. The students, faculty, etc. at Einstein are all good, I just felt like Sinai was a better atmosphere on all fronts. This is of course a subjective opinion based on my own interests, needs, desires, etc. I don't think it's wrong to present this opinion from someone who was interviewed, eventually accepted at, and considering both schools. I think the OP agrees with me, and I think sometimes it's good to find people who share your opinions to verify their reality.
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I didn't indicate if this bias is good, bad, or indifferent, just that it exists, and it exists mainly in the excessive posting of a handful of posters.
However, IMO the bias for Sinai seems disproportionate to its positive qualities especially when it comes to these "School A vs B" threads. I have also noticed that when anyone makes a less than stellar comment about Sinai on any thread, the same people jump into the fray.
There is a HUGE east coast / NYC / urban med school bias on SDN, too. There is a real "NYC or bust" mentality on SDN.
Have confidence in your own opinions and choices - I could not care less what other pre meds think about different med schools.
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Although not as big as the California bias
The big obsession with California seems to be for residencies. As in, "can I get back to Cali for residency if I go to med school in <fill in the blank>?"
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Haha, we all know Cali Kids obsessively talk about how great California is. Many times when you see East Coast vs. West Coast school comparisons...the clear message "Well, Cali is awesome!" always comes up. I found this a lot when I was trying to ask people for objective opinions between schools on the East Coast and Stanford.
To be honest, there is nothing wrong with Californians loving their state and saying it is an advantage. The same way there is nothing wrong with some of us loving Sinai and saying it is an advantage. We all have our own biases and are aware of it. The reason why you probably see some of us post in every Sinai vs. other thread is that we are passionate about the school and make an effort to show it. In spite of my bias, I try to be as objectionable as possible, and sometimes succeed and sometimes fail. It's hard to overcome a bias and that's why getting multiple opinions are important. I truly do hope that in these X vs. Y threads both sides share their opinions so that the OP gets the most value out of it. That's the whole point.
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Exactly.
I enjoy reading all of these threads, but I never seek validation of my own opinions and decisions from anything I read here.
i'm not sure what you mean by "the bias for Sinai seems disproportionate to its positive qualities." yes, i am planning to attend sinai and love the school, but i don't think i've seen anything on SDN that exaggerates sinai's positive qualities and tries to cover up its negative ones-- all the comments on here seem pretty well in line with what i've experienced when visiting the school in person.
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As someone who interviewed at both schools, I would say that if all money were equal I would choose Sinai, but given the scholarship would definitely choose Einstein.
I got very similar impressions at both schools (namely, I liked them a lot but didn't love them), and feel that they both provide an excellent clinical training with a very diverse patient population and emphasis on global health while simultaneously being very strong in research. Sinai has a slightly better reputation, but check out Einstein's 2010 match list. It's pretty incredible, and equal to if not better than sinai's.
Sinai definitely wins on location, which is why I'd go there without the scholarship. Einstein wins on money (with the scholarship) and on housing. 65k over four years would be more than enough to convince me to go to Einstein, but thats just me. It's an individual decision about how much money is too much. To be fair though, in looking at the resident portions of SDN, I don't think I've ever seen anyone regretful that they chose the cheaper school. The reverse isn't true.
I got very similar impressions at both schools (namely, I liked them a lot but didn't love them), and feel that they both provide an excellent clinical training with a very diverse patient population and emphasis on global health while simultaneously being very strong in research. Sinai has a slightly better reputation, but check out Einstein's 2010 match list. It's pretty incredible, and equal to if not better than sinai's.
Sinai definitely wins on location, which is why I'd go there without the scholarship. Einstein wins on money (with the scholarship) and on housing. 65k over four years would be more than enough to convince me to go to Einstein, but thats just me. It's an individual decision about how much money is too much. To be fair though, in looking at the resident portions of SDN, I don't think I've ever seen anyone regretful that they chose the cheaper school. The reverse isn't true.
It's definitely an impressive list but keep in mind the quality of the matches are not quite the same (my opinion) and they had 60-70 more students in the match. I would say NYU's and Cornell's are more similar to Sinai's match list this year.
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I am sorry to say this but you seem to be singing the same song over and over. You keep mentioning how Sinai is a lot better than Einstein without stating anything to back it up except U.S. News ranking and your impression of the faculty and students. I agree with you Sinai is a great school but Einstein is great too. In my opinion Sinai wins as far as location is concerned but as I mentioned before when you look at these schools from a unbiased prospective there is very little difference in the quality of education one will receive. Both have great research opportunities, good global health program, outstanding clinical opportunities. I will say one more time, what you describe makes Sinai a good fit for you. It no ways make it a better medical school when compared to Einstein.
OP, as I mentioned before if the cost was equal, Sinai gets a slight edge. But with a scholarship that would save over $80K, I would pick Einstein without a doubt.
i agree with you that sinai and einstein can be equally appealing to people in many ways, but what's wrong with posters giving their impressions of the faculty and students? isn't that pretty much all we have to offer after visiting these schools? honestly, so many med schools are incredibly similar if you limit the comparison to only concrete things. so we discuss our opinions.
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There is nothing wrong with opinions. But I like to read opinions that are at least backed by some facts. Anyone can say school X is the best in the country or school Y sucks, but if the opinion is not supported by some facts, the opinion adds very little value to the discussion.
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LOL, did you read my post? I mentioned I don't care abou the US News Rankings! I actually just had to look them up to see where Einstein was, because I didn't know what it was ranked.
You could make the same argument against Einstein vs. Harvard about opportunities. "Well you can do research at both!" and "Einstein has a great global health program. They'll pay for your MPH! It's clearly just as good of a school as Harvard. Harvard even makes you pay for MPH!" Of course many medical schools have similar opportunities...the environments in which these opportunities are presented are different though. Not to disparage a particular school, but I know plenty of students at Drexel who do research, work in free clinics, etc. Does it make Drexel an equal school to Sinai? No. It's a completely different environment. The type of people you're around, the hospitals you work in, the type of career paths that most faculty take to get there. I felt like I connected with the ambitions of the Sinai students and faculty members more so than I did with the ambitions of the Einstein students and faculty members. You can say this is subjective, but I just didn't get the sense that Einstein students were as interested in leadership/academic/research medicine as compared to Sinai students.
Einstein just isn't the same type of academic center like Sinai is...it doesn't attract the same type of faculty and students. I'm not saying Einstein is bad, but it's different. Sinai is heavily researched/academic based, I think Einstein tends to be more clinically oriented despite also having a research enterprise. But, it's just not the same academic powerhouse. I hate to use numbers...but look at the research funding per faculty member.
Einstein: $77,000/faculty member
Sinai: $253,000/faculty member
That's more than a 3 fold difference, and to be honest, 77k/faculty member is at the lower end of most medical schools. You can argue the importance of that number, but to me it's a more objective indicator of the quality of faculty members...as clearly my subjective opinions are useless to you.
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By that extension, can you argue that Harvard or Hopkins is a better school than Einstein?
This is the second time today I've been beaten.
One thing that definitely attracts me to Sinai is I feel that your education is very flexible. I like the idea of taking my exams when I have time and where I please. If I want to go away for a weekend, I can take my exam Friday. Or I can study all weekend for it and take it Sunday night. It's my choice and works around my schedule.
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Source?? This is kind of old data but looking at just the NIH funding info found here (http://report.nih.gov/award/rank/medttl05.htm), Einstein received about $156.3M whereas Sinai received about $174.4M. There is some difference but it is not significant. I am not sure where you got your numbers from.
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US News 2010- 2011. It's just official, published data reported by each school. For comparison, research funding per faculty member. It's not the only indicator (there's also total research funding), but this number tends to indicate the quality of each faculty member indicated by how much grant money they each pull in on average. This can become skewed...some institutions have a wide range and have a broad batch of early career faculty in addition to smaller bunch of later career, successful people. Overall though, it's one indicator that isn't a subjective opinion if that's what you wanted.
Einstein: $77k
NYU: $122k
Columbia: $244.7
Cornell: $150k
Stony Brook: 120k
Sinai: 253k
Stanford (#1 bio program in the country): 321k
I get the sense you think I'm attacking Einstein. I'm not....it's a great institution. I'm just pointing out that I felt there were significant differences between the schools such that it wasn't so clear cut that 60k would be such an immediate dealbreaker.
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Here are updated numbers.
http://report.nih.gov/award/trends/...m?State=NEW YORK&Lon=-75.794678&Lat=42.811522
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Ok, I see. This is another US news number that does not have much value. That is because Einstein have three times as many faculty members as Sinai (about 3K for Einstein whereas Sinai have only about a thousand). Maybe Einstein have a lot more part time faculty member compared to Sinai, I do not know. That's why the number is slightly low for Einstein. I do not think you are attacking Einstein and I am not trying to take anything away from Sinai, I just think the difference between Sinai and Einstein is not significant enough for one to give up over 80K in scholarship money to pick one over the other. I rest my case here.
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This all depends on how a school defines a "faculty" member. Are purely clinical physicians at affiliate hospitals included? What about post-docs, physicians with affiliate hospital privileges (but not employed by hospital) etc. That makes this metric relatively worthless, with total research activity a bit more useful (or at least research money per medical student, which could indicate the amount of available research opportunities).
Its also worth noting that another factor in the US News score, namely student/faculty ratio, relatively worthless.
Is that average or median?
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