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Mar 22, 2019
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Hi all!

I am happy to see this thread. This is my first and only time applying due to my age and family planning. I applied to 25 schools and I got one interview at Case Western University! I am stoked but still understand the odds are not in my favor.

Can someone provide any unique input or anything they have heard about this program or how to WOW them/what they are looking for specifically? I am not a traditional applicant--I've been in general dentistry for 4 years and I did do a GPR (at CU). Anything helps!! Thank you so much!
 

futureOMFSlady

7+ Year Member
Jun 16, 2012
27
32
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Dentist
Hi all!

I am happy to see this thread. This is my first and only time applying due to my age and family planning. I applied to 25 schools and I got one interview at Case Western University! I am stoked but still understand the odds are not in my favor.

Can someone provide any unique input or anything they have heard about this program or how to WOW them/what they are looking for specifically? I am not a traditional applicant--I've been in general dentistry for 4 years and I did do a GPR (at CU). Anything helps!! Thank you so much!
I only have one as well! It is also my first choice because of where I live. I think the best thing is to be positive and friendly. What is meant to be yours will be! You've got this!
 

ylladental2

Toothfairy2
2+ Year Member
Apr 26, 2016
9
12
One is better than none !! Getting the interview is the hardest part - then you’re true passion and personality shine through. Stay positive, be real, and send thank you cards and express your interest so they know you really want to go there ! Best of luck !!!!!

Hi all!

I am happy to see this thread. This is my first and only time applying due to my age and family planning. I applied to 25 schools and I got one interview at Case Western University! I am stoked but still understand the odds are not in my favor.

Can someone provide any unique input or anything they have heard about this program or how to WOW them/what they are looking for specifically? I am not a traditional applicant--I've been in general dentistry for 4 years and I did do a GPR (at CU). Anything helps!! Thank you so much!
 

futureOMFSlady

7+ Year Member
Jun 16, 2012
27
32
Status
Dentist
So for non-match programs will they let you know if you are accepted prior to match opening? Anyone know how that works?
 

gocougars

10+ Year Member
Dec 6, 2008
7
3
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So for non-match programs will they let you know if you are accepted prior to match opening? Anyone know how that works?
I'm pretty sure that they have to let you know before 15 November so they can give you opportunity to withdraw from the match. According to the match, if you match with a program you cannot withdraw barring penalty. This is also consistent with what I have heard from past applicants.
 
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futureOMFSlady

7+ Year Member
Jun 16, 2012
27
32
Status
Dentist
1. 7/12 Oklahoma (phone) 10/25 or 11/1 with social the night before
2. 8/15 University of Iowa (email) 10/4 with social the night before, 10/25 with social the night before
3. 8/20 Loma Linda University (phone) 10/7 or 10/8 no social
4. 8/22 University of British Colombia (email) 11/2 with social the night before
5. 8/26 Tufts University School of Dental Medicine (email) 9/24 with social the night before
6. 8/30 University of Illinois at Chicago (email) 10/03 or 10/10 with social the night before
7. 8/30 MUSC (email) 10/11 or 10/18 with social the night before
8. 9/3 Indiana (email) 10/18 with social the night before
9. 9/4 Houston (email) 10/10 or 10/11 with social the night before (either 10/9 or 10/10)
10. 9/6 University of Tennessee, Memphis (email) 10/11 with social the night before
11. 9/6 University of Missouri, Kansas City (email) 10/21, social the night before (according to a current resident)
12. 9/8 OHSU (email) 10/24 or 10/25 with social the night before
13. 9/9 Ohio State (email) 10/7 with social the night before
14. 9/9 A.T. Still University, Arizona (email) 10/8 with social the night of interview
15. 9/9 Louisiana State University (email) 10/24 or 10/25 with a social the night of 10/24
16. 9/9 Seton Hill University (email) 9/27 with a social the afternoon/evening of 9/26
17. 9/9 Boston University (email) 10/07 or 10/15 with social the day before
18. 9/10 UCLA (email) 9/30 with social the night before
19. 9/10 University of Pittsburgh (phone) 10/25 or 10/28 (assuming social the night before)
20. 9/10 University of Nevada Las Vegas (UNLV) (email) 10/14 with social the night of interview
21. 9/10 Nebraska (phone) 10/7 or 10/8 with social
22. 9/10 Texas A & M (phone) - 10/29 or 10/30 or 10/31 (choice of social on 10/29 or 10/30
23. 9/12 University of Michigan (phone) - 10/7 or 10/14
24. 9/13 University at Buffalo (email)- 10/18 or 10/21 with social the night before
25. 9/13 Augusta (phone) 10/21 with social the night before
26. 9/13 Louisville (email) 10/10 or 10/11 (no mention of a social)
27. 9/13 San Antonio (email) 10/23 or 10/30, social the night before
28. 9/13 UCSF (email) 10/11, social night before
29. 9/16 Virginia Commonwealth (email) 10/24 and 10/25
30. 9/16 University of Washington (email) 10/7 with social the night before
31. 9/17 St Barnabas (email) 10/22 with social the night before
32. 9/18 University of Kentucky (phone) 10/28 with social the night before
33. 9/18 University of Rochester (phone) saying selected for an interview and will receive an email with possible dates to choose from
34. 9/18 Nova Southeastern University (email) 10/17, 10/24, 10/28, 10/29 (4 interview dates) with social the night before.
35. 9/18 Montefiore Medical Center (email) 10/4 or 10/11 with social the night before
36. 9/19 University of North Carolina (phone + email) 10/21 or 10/22 with social the night before
37. 9/20 University of Pennsylvania (email) 10/16 or 10/23 with social the night before
38. 9/20 Rutgers School of Dental Medicine (email) 10/10 or 10/11 with social the night before
39. 9/20 University of Alabama- Birmingham (phone) 10/17 or 10/18
40. 9/20 NYU Langone (email) 10/03
41. 9/23 Columbia (email) 10/21 or 10/22 with social the night before
42. 9/24 University of Colorado (email) 10/10, 10/11, or 10/14 with no mention of social yet
43. 9/24 St. Louis (email) 10/28, 10/29, 10/30, 10/31 with social any night from 10/27-10/30
44. 9/24 Albert Einstein Medical Center (phone) - 10/23 with social the night before.
45. 9/25 University of Florida (email) - 10/22 with social the night before.
46. 9/26 NYU (email) - 10/17 and 10/18 Compulsory to attend both days
47. 9/27 Stony Brook (email) 10/24 with social the night before
48. 9/27 Minnesota (email) 10/28 with social the night before
49. 9/27 UoP (email) 10/21 or 10/22
50. 9/27 Roseman (phone) 10/21 or 10/22 social 10/21
51. 9/27 Bronxcare (Bronx Lebanon) 10/17 with social the night before
52. 10/1 Harvard (email) 11/4 with social the night of the interview
53. 10/2 University of Maryland (email) 10/23 or 10/24, social the night before
54. 10/2 Jacksonville (email) 10/14 & 10/15, social the night before
55. 10/2 Temple University 11/1 and 11/4, social night before.
56. 10/2 West Virginia University 10/28, social night before
57. 10/3 University of Connecticut 10/17 or 10/18, social the night before
58. 10/3 Detroit Mercy (email) 11/5 or 11/6, social the night before
59. 10/7 Marquette (email) 10/31 or 11/1, social on the night of 10/31
60. 10/7 Case Western Reserve (email) 10/30 or 10/31, social on 10/30
61. 10/8 USC (email) 10/28, social the night before
62. 10/8 Maimonides 11/5 9-4PM (personal interview- they're only accepting 2 resident
63. 10/11 Howard 11/6, no mention of social
64. 10/18 Medstar 10/26, no mention of social
 

futureOMFSlady

7+ Year Member
Jun 16, 2012
27
32
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Dentist
For those that have had interviews, and are willing to share...How was the experience? Did your program ask you any "crazy" or hard to answer questions? Any advice for those of us still preparing?
 
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Oct 26, 2019
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Practicing orthodontist here. Class of 2015. I have been following the changes in the ortho market and DIY orthodontics (SDC, Candid,...) on daily basis. I just rejoined SDN after 13 years to increase awareness. To let you guys know that there is no bright future for this profession:
  1. ADA, AAO, state dental boards,... cannot fight DIY ortho.
  2. They cannot fight DSO's.
  3. DIY and DSO's claim they increase access to care and noone can argue with someone who is claiming increasing access to care.
  4. More and more stablished orthodontists are printing aligners in house.
  5. More and more stablished orthodontists are taking state insurances and HMO insurances to justify their overhead.
  6. GPs, pedos and DSOs are hiring orthodontists in house.
  7. Staffing agencies are hiring orthos and sending them to GP and pedo offices.
  8. Orthos are graduating with over half a million dollar debt.
  9. More and more female orthos are graduating. DSO's, GP's and pedos love them because most female orthodontist are not interested in owning.
  10. Banks are following the changes in the market and are starting to think twice before they lend money to new grad orthodontists.
  11. An average ortho associate ortho working 6 days a week doesn't make more than $400k/yr. Subtract taxes, student loan repayment, your daily expenses and you are not left with much.
  12. Fewer orthos are retiring
  13. DSO's buy most practices that are on the market for sale
  14. I have been working 5-6 days per week for the past 4 years and noone has ever asked me if I am board certified or not
  15. More and more for-profit ortho residency programs are opening. They are graduating clinically incompetent orthodontists.
  16. More and more group multi specialty practices are opening.
Do you still want to apply to ortho residency programs?
 
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Wahoowah

10+ Year Member
Apr 4, 2010
29
12
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Dentist
Practicing orthodontist here. Class of 2015. I have been following the changes in the ortho market and DIY orthodontics (SDC, Candid,...) on daily basis. I just rejoined SDN after 13 years to increase awareness. To let you guys know that there is no bright future for this profession:
  1. ADA, AAO, state dental boards,... cannot fight DIY ortho.
  2. They cannot fight DSO's.
  3. DIY and DSO's claim they increase access to care and noone can argue with someone who is claiming increasing access to care.
  4. More and more stablished orthodontists are printing aligners in house.
  5. More and more stablished orthodontists are taking state insurances and HMO insurances to justify their overhead.
  6. GPs, pedos and DSOs are hiring orthodontists in house.
  7. Staffing agencies are hiring orthos and sending them to GP and pedo offices.
  8. Orthos are graduating with over half a million dollar debt.
  9. More and more female orthos are graduating. DSO's, GP's and pedos love them because most female orthodontist are not interested in owning.
  10. Banks are following the changes in the market and are starting to think twice before they lend money to new grad orthodontists.
  11. An average ortho associate ortho working 6 days a week doesn't make more than $400k/yr. Subtract taxes, student loan repayment, your daily expenses and you are not left with much.
  12. Fewer orthos are retiring
  13. DSO's buy most practices that are on the market for sale
  14. I have been working 5-6 days per week for the past 4 years and noone has ever asked me if I am board certified or not
  15. More and more for-profit ortho residency programs are opening. They are graduating clinically incompetent orthodontists.
  16. More and more group multi specialty practices are opening.
Do you still want to apply to ortho residency programs?
@simon1984, Sounds like you are having a hard time adapting to changes in the profession and you are just venting under the false guise of helping out these future applicants. It's quite condescending to assume that applicants are completely unaware of these issues that you've outlined here. You've neglected to think that that perhaps people are applying in spite of these issues. Maybe they want to improve this situation? Maybe they want to capitalize on these market forces and start the DSOs whom you regard so negatively? Maybe they are so passionate about ortho that they cannot imagine doing anything else? I'll admit that many people apply for the wrong reasons, or they get into unsustainable debt. We need to do a better job as a community about helping people make the right choices. What you're saying here however is no different than what's happened in most areas of medicine and dentistry.

Instead of venting, why don't you make some positive contributions such as strategies for how you and future grads will combat or take advantage of these changes?
 
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Oct 26, 2019
4
8
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@simon1984, Sounds like you are having a hard time adapting to changes in the profession and you are just venting under the false guise of helping out these future applicants. It's quite condescending to assume that applicants are completely unaware of these issues that you've outlined here. You've neglected to think that that perhaps people are applying in spite of these issues. Maybe they want to improve this situation? Maybe they want to capitalize on these market forces and start the DSOs whom you regard so negatively? Maybe they are so passionate about ortho that they cannot imagine doing anything else? I'll admit that many people apply for the wrong reasons, or they get into unsustainable debt. We need to do a better job as a community about helping people make the right choices. What you're saying here however is no different than what's happened in most areas of medicine and dentistry.

Instead of venting, why don't you make some positive contributions such as strategies for how you and future grads will combat or take advantage of these changes?
Applicants cannot improve the situation.
I tried making positive contributions by contacting ADA, CODA, AAO, state dental boards,.....no luck.
You cannot fight billion dollar companies.
 
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gryffindor

15+ Year Member
Feb 2, 2002
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@simon1984, Sounds like you are having a hard time adapting to changes in the profession and you are just venting under the false guise of helping out these future applicants. It's quite condescending to assume that applicants are completely unaware of these issues that you've outlined here. You've neglected to think that that perhaps people are applying in spite of these issues. Maybe they want to improve this situation? Maybe they want to capitalize on these market forces and start the DSOs whom you regard so negatively? Maybe they are so passionate about ortho that they cannot imagine doing anything else? I'll admit that many people apply for the wrong reasons, or they get into unsustainable debt. We need to do a better job as a community about helping people make the right choices. What you're saying here however is no different than what's happened in most areas of medicine and dentistry.

Instead of venting, why don't you make some positive contributions such as strategies for how you and future grads will combat or take advantage of these changes?
Do you think DSOs are a positive thing? Care to explain why?
Regarding aligners in a box, well we are a society that doesn't have discipline or patience, both of which are necessary for successful treatment with removable aligners. Braces aren't going anywhere.
As far as all of his other points, some are valid, some are vents. Buyer beware. This specialty has changed but so have all the others.
 

gryffindor

15+ Year Member
Feb 2, 2002
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can u tell us how you failed to match with the first five choices in your third year of applying? i just find it hard to believe that u could have several interviews and go unmatched for not one but two years and then on the third try match with your sixth choice. dont most peeps match their first choice? what went wrong? nevertheless impressive tenacity, u have!
Once upon a time, it was very hard to get into ortho. Orthodontists had it made. Residency was a front where you learned to count money and maybe bend some wires since robotic wire bending had not been invented yet. Did you know some current 3 year residencies were once only 18 months long? This mighty exclusive club wasn't about to let just anyone in.

First the general dentists "sued" to be able to give their patients the plastic trays. Then the "Six Months" people let out the secret of the NiTi wires. Now the millennials are "disrupting" and plastic trays arrive at your door step without ever seeing any licensed dentist let alone orthodontist. The party's over. Everyone wants in on the business of moving teeth.

So it doesn't matter why anymore. Good luck to those of you accumulating half a million or more trying to break in.
 
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Oct 26, 2019
4
8
Status
Dentist
Once upon a time, it was very hard to get into ortho. Orthodontists had it made. Residency was a front where you learned to count money and maybe bend some wires since robotic wire bending had not been invented yet. Did you know some current 3 year residencies were once just 18 months long? This mighty exclusive club wasn't about to let anyone in.

First the general dentists "sued" to be able to give their patients the plastic trays. Then the "Six Months" people let out the secret of the NiTi wires. Now the millennials are "disrupting" and plastic trays arrive at your door step without ever seeing any licensed dentist let alone orthodontist. The party's over. Everyone wants in on the business of moving teeth.

So it doesn't matter why anymore. Good luck to those of you accumulating half a million or more trying to break in.
I agree with gryffindor statements.
Unfortunately, a couple of SDN users reported my original post yesterday as "inappropriate" and "harassment" to admin!
I am just trying to tell you what the world out there will look like by the time you guys graduate. I wish someone had told me when I was in dental school.
I am just trying to make sure you don't make the same million dollar mistake.
 

Wahoowah

10+ Year Member
Apr 4, 2010
29
12
Status
Dentist
Technology is going to disrupt industries at an ever increasing pace. No type of business is completely immune to this. Unfortunately, going to school for 10+ years will not protect you anymore from disintermediation. I think that is what is so unsettling for people who traditionally thought medicine/dentistry was a safe path. We expect our training to insulate us from what robots have done to assembly lines or what Uber did to taxis. We have to acknowledge that our traditional tools and method of practice don't make us special.

Echoing @gryffindor and @simon1984 people really need to take their choice seriously especially when taking on a lot of debt ($500k+) It's going to be hard to if you just want to be an associate your whole career. However if you are entrepreneurial or creative there are still many opportunities to be successful. You have to adapt to the reality of what's going on.
 

mmc12

2+ Year Member
Oct 26, 2016
172
76
Status
Dentist
Once upon a time, it was very hard to get into ortho. Orthodontists had it made. Residency was a front where you learned to count money and maybe bend some wires since robotic wire bending had not been invented yet. Did you know some current 3 year residencies were once only 18 months long? This mighty exclusive club wasn't about to let just anyone in.

First the general dentists "sued" to be able to give their patients the plastic trays. Then the "Six Months" people let out the secret of the NiTi wires. Now the millennials are "disrupting" and plastic trays arrive at your door step without ever seeing any licensed dentist let alone orthodontist. The party's over. Everyone wants in on the business of moving teeth.

So it doesn't matter why anymore. Good luck to those of you accumulating half a million or more trying to break in.
And many new ortho programs began popping up in the early 2000s (many of them were OEC programs), which added to the saturation of the specialty (Jacksonville, Colorado, UNLV, etc). The same guy also opened the 18 resident/year Georgia School of Orthodontics back in 2016.
 

gryffindor

15+ Year Member
Feb 2, 2002
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And many new ortho programs began popping up in the early 2000s (many of them were OEC programs), which added to the saturation of the specialty (Jacksonville, Colorado, UNLV, etc). The same guy also opened the 18 resident/year Georgia School of Orthodontics back in 2016.
The ortho programs that have opened since 2004 are -
Jacksonville
Colorado
UNLV
South Carolina
Arizona
Roseman
Georgia School of Orthodontics

And the one that has closed since 2004 is -
Vanderbilt

Since this is the interview thread, chances of landing a residency spot look good!
 
OP
BRush49
Mar 27, 2019
17
5
Status
Dentist
Thanks for your input everyone! Definitely a lot to think about when considering residency/debt and everything that goes along with it. I would make one recommendation though, can we keep this thread more related to residency applications and interviews? You are bringing up many valid points for people to think about, but they may be better received in a separate thread so that those who are here for help and support in this process don’t have so much to sift through. TIA!
 
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mmc12

2+ Year Member
Oct 26, 2016
172
76
Status
Dentist
Practicing orthodontist here. Class of 2015. I have been following the changes in the ortho market and DIY orthodontics (SDC, Candid,...) on daily basis. I just rejoined SDN after 13 years to increase awareness. To let you guys know that there is no bright future for this profession:
  1. ADA, AAO, state dental boards,... cannot fight DIY ortho.
  2. They cannot fight DSO's.
  3. DIY and DSO's claim they increase access to care and noone can argue with someone who is claiming increasing access to care.
  4. More and more stablished orthodontists are printing aligners in house.
  5. More and more stablished orthodontists are taking state insurances and HMO insurances to justify their overhead.
  6. GPs, pedos and DSOs are hiring orthodontists in house.
  7. Staffing agencies are hiring orthos and sending them to GP and pedo offices.
  8. Orthos are graduating with over half a million dollar debt.
  9. More and more female orthos are graduating. DSO's, GP's and pedos love them because most female orthodontist are not interested in owning.
  10. Banks are following the changes in the market and are starting to think twice before they lend money to new grad orthodontists.
  11. An average ortho associate ortho working 6 days a week doesn't make more than $400k/yr. Subtract taxes, student loan repayment, your daily expenses and you are not left with much.
  12. Fewer orthos are retiring
  13. DSO's buy most practices that are on the market for sale
  14. I have been working 5-6 days per week for the past 4 years and noone has ever asked me if I am board certified or not
  15. More and more for-profit ortho residency programs are opening. They are graduating clinically incompetent orthodontists.
  16. More and more group multi specialty practices are opening.
Do you still want to apply to ortho residency programs?
I wonder if the fact that ortho is not doing as well now than in the past has discouraged applicants from applying to ortho. I'm wondering if the top students are still applying to ortho, or are they instead branching into other specialties (pedo, OS, endo). Given the market trends and saturation of the specialty, If the average orthodontist salary drops below that of a GP's, would there still be this many applicants?
 
Oct 12, 2019
4
1
Status
Dental Student
Someone please post here once Jacksonville sends out position letters. Supposedly going to be this week
Jacksonville sent out their acceptances Oct. 23rd. They send out 10 acceptances and give them 10 days to accept and put down a deposit. If they don't accept they send out additional acceptances to fill out the rest of their spots. Once they have all the spots filled they'll send out non-acceptance emails to the remaining applicants.
 
Jun 19, 2019
24
3
Status
Dentist
Anyone receive an acceptance from Langone. Last year it was on Oct 31st...but maybe they already have this year. Thx

Sent from my SM-N950U using SDN mobile
 
Oct 8, 2018
8
3
I wonder if the fact that ortho is not doing as well now than in the past has discouraged applicants from applying to ortho. I'm wondering if the top students are still applying to ortho, or are they instead branching into other specialties (pedo, OS, endo). Given the market trends and saturation of the specialty, If the average orthodontist salary drops below that of a GP's, would there still be this many applicants?
Probably yes because ortho is way easier life style than GP. And many applicants are passionate about ortho and they don’t look up the salary when they apply. .. that’s what i think :)
 
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artist2022

D2 :)
Moderator
2+ Year Member
Dec 25, 2016
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Hey everyone, thanks for the reports but appropriate action has already been taken in this thread, so let's continue to stay on topic and hear all about interviews and acceptances going out :) If you would like to, you can create a new, separate thread to talk about the future of ortho- it just doesn't belong here.
 
Sep 27, 2018
3
0
Hi everyone! Can someone help me with this MATCH question?

Let's say there's Program 1 and Applicants A and B. Program 1 only has one spot available.

Rank List submitted by Program 1:
1. Applicant A
2. Applicant B

Rank List submitted by Applicant A:
1. another program
2. another program
3. another program
4. another program
5. Program 1

Rank List Submitted by Applicant B:
1. Program 1

Applicant A is not matched to any of the first 4 programs on his list. Program 1 only has one spot. Which applicant gets the spot? Does MATCH consider that Program 1 is Applicant B's top choice? Or does it work in a way that does not allow someone who is ranked lower into the program first?
 

mmc12

2+ Year Member
Oct 26, 2016
172
76
Status
Dentist
Hi everyone! Can someone help me with this MATCH question?

Let's say there's Program 1 and Applicants A and B. Program 1 only has one spot available.

Rank List submitted by Program 1:
1. Applicant A
2. Applicant B

Rank List submitted by Applicant A:
1. another program
2. another program
3. another program
4. another program
5. Program 1

Rank List Submitted by Applicant B:
1. Program 1

Applicant A is not matched to any of the first 4 programs on his list. Program 1 only has one spot. Which applicant gets the spot? Does MATCH consider that Program 1 is Applicant B's top choice? Or does it work in a way that does not allow someone who is ranked lower into the program first?
The MATCH always tries to match applicants with their first choice. Since Applicant B has ranked program 1 first, it will be tentatively matched with program 1. For applicant A, it will try to match him/her with his/her first choice program. If that doesn't work out, it will continue down their rank list until they get a match or ultimately unmatched. When MATCH reaches applicant A's 5th choice (program 1), he will thus ultimately get matched with program 1 and applicant B will now be unmatched because Program 1 ranked applicant A higher and there is only one position.

The following video explains the MATCH process.
 
Jun 19, 2019
24
3
Status
Dentist
New to this Match program. Can you put the same school in more than one rank column...or just one? Thanks in advance?

Sent from my SM-N950U using SDN mobile
 

gec

5+ Year Member
Dec 24, 2013
11
11
Status
Dental Student
Will we receive a Match notification via email on the morning of Nov 22? :bear:
 
D

deleted659902

Name of Ortho Program:
Dental School Attended:
Year Earned DMD/DDS:
AEGD/GPR/Fellowship/Residency:
International Student (yes/no):
NBDE Part I/II scores:
ADAT Score:
GRE Score:
Class Rank:
Match/Non-Match:
Externship(s)/where:
Research:
Extracurriculars:
Programs Applied to/Interview Invites/Interviews Attended/Programs Ranked:


for tomorrow!
 

ortho_mds

2+ Year Member
Apr 21, 2017
108
34
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Dentist
Wishing all the best to everyone for the match results today....i hope everyone matches to their choice.
 
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