Pitt (w/ money) vs. Penn

[IAmMyOwnTwin]

I can't believe it, but I am STILL trying to pick a med school. It's come down to Penn, which is the most prestigious school I got into as well as my personal favorite, and Pitt, which has offered me a $20,000/yr merit scholarship for four years.

Penn, like most schools, considers me to have no financial need, and my parents consider me to be on my own, so I will have to borrow a ton of money to attend either school. Penn will cost me about $70K/yr x 4 yrs = $280K (not counting interest, which will be sizable). Pitt (with the merit scholarship) will cost me about $42K/yr x 4 yrs = $168K (not counting interest).

I am hoping for a career in academic medicine that blends clinical research and patient care. I envision myself doing either an internal medicine sub-specialty or neurology, though I won't make a final decision about that until I am in med school. I don't think I will be going for one of the ultra-competitive residencies (like dermatology or radiology), but I don't want to shut any doors right now, either.

Here are some thoughts on each:

Penn
--rank: top 5
--location: Philadelphia. I love Penn's urban campus, and Center City (where I probably would live) is charming -- historic townhouses and cute little shops and restaurants everywhere. Philly is nice in that it is close enough to New York for me to be able to take a bus or train to visit friends there.
--mission/emphasis: "md-plus" -- encourages students to take advantage of the University's resources to tailor their medical education to suit their career goals.
--people: I really liked the other students I met at Penn Preview. There were plenty of non-traditional (i.e. older) students like me, which I appreciated.
--pre-clinical and clinical curriculum: both seem great. Penn has a compressed pre-clinical curriculum such that you enter the clinics after 1.5 years. Current students seem really happy about this, though from this vantage point, it is hard for me to know the value of this.

Pitt
--rank: top 15
--location: Pittsburgh. I actually really like Pittsburgh and think I would enjoy it as a city. Pittsburgh often gets highly ranked in most-livable-cities lists, because it is safe and affordable. Unfortunately, Pittsburgh is not near either of my two current geographic loci of support -- family in the South or friends in New York. However, I do have a couple of friends there.
--mission: "educating the physician-scholar". Sounds great.
--people: I have no idea. I didn't go to the Pittsburgh's second look weekend because I didn't find out about the scholarship until after the fact.
--pre-clinical and clinical curriculum: Pitt is known for having great clinical training. My one concern about the pre-clinical years is that I've heard that Pitt students spend a lot of time in lecture, compared to other med schools. I've also heard the grading scheme breeds competition.

Bottom line: Penn will cost me $112K + interest on top of what it will cost me to go to Pitt. While I think very highly of both schools and both cities, I think Penn would definitely be the better choice for me if money were no object, but money IS something to think about. I should mention that I'm already about $50K in debt from post-bacc, and I'm in my late 20s, so I will be getting a late start on tackling my debt.

Is it worth it to go to Penn? Penn is where I most want to go, but I am afraid of what a debt load that huge will mean for my future. I am committed to deciding by tomorrow.

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to share their thoughts on this.

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[guyski79]

this is a tough choice, but i voted for pitt. the clincher was that you already have some outstanding debt from undergrad.

i posted this in another thread, maybe you've already seen it, but i think everyone on here should play with it to see what monthly payments for loans will actually look like.

http://usdebtclock.org/mortgage-loan-calculator.html

 

[TheFlashMD]

Bottom line: Penn will cost me $112K + interest on top of what it will cost me to go to Pitt. While I think very highly of both schools and both cities, I think Penn would definitely be the better choice for me if money were no object, but money IS something to think about. I should mention that I'm already about $50K in debt from post-bacc, and I'm in my late 20s, so I will be getting a late start on tackling my debt.

If you went to Penn, you'll end up paying ~500k for your education when you include interest. You won't be an attending until you're almost 40. You won't be done paying off your education at the very earliest 45 (single, no kids, thriving private practice, living like a resident). And since you want to do some academic medicine, your earning potential will be substantially less.

Pitts a great school, take the money and run.

 

[guyski79]

i also forgot to mention that you can get roundtrip airfair from pittsburgh to nyc for $100. it's a 90 minute flight, so it might actually be easier to get to nyc from pitt than philly

 

[mdeast]

Wow. This is tough.

I agree that I think Penn is an overall better school than Pitt. And Philly is better than Pittsburgh. Although, I will say many people have told me great things about Pittsburgh as a city to be young in and enjoy your life, and of course UPitt is a Top 20 medical school.

Pitt is also highly ranked and draws a great student body. I think it's maybe slightly a bit more competitive of an atmosphere from what I've been told, but there are relatively equal opportunities to do research (both clinical and basic science). And, while HUP is great, so it UPMC. UPMC is way bigger than HUP (it's a much different dynamic), and it's also ranked Top 20 on the US News hospital honor roll. So great clinical training and research at both schools. Penn definitely is more prestigious and higher ranked.

But, again this decision seems to come down to money. I think *most* would pick Penn over Pitt irregardless of money. But money is important.

Here's something to consider. Assume your loan interest rates are about 7%. And you pay it off in 15 years post-graduation. Here are your monthly loan payments not including your post-bac debt (which will be the same in either case)...assuming you can afford to start full payments in residency, which you probably won't be able to do.

Pitt: 1510.03 (18k/year for 15 years)
Penn: 2516.03 (30k/year for 15 years)

So it's an extra 1k a month for 15 years. Is that it worth it to you?

I voted for Pitt because this isn't a trivial difference in finances and it's not as if Pitt is really that much of a rank difference/opportunity difference to Penn. Irregardless of finances, I'd choose Penn as well. I'm waitlisted at Penn so it's in my favor for you to choose Pitt and I thought I should point out that bias while you read my advice.

Other things to consider: If you go into academic medicine and work on an NIH grant...there are programs to pay back your debt, even if you're just a fellow in a lab. My PI did this to pay back his undergrad loans. The NIH provides something like 35k/year and most applicants who apply are approved.

http://www.lrp.nih.gov/

Good luck!

 

[IAmMyOwnTwin]

i also forgot to mention that you can get roundtrip airfair from pittsburgh to nyc for $100. it's a 90 minute flight, so it might actually be easier to get to nyc from pitt than philly

I'm not sure anything can beat the NYC-Philly BoltBus. It only cost me $11 to get back to NYC from Penn Preview!

But seriously, thanks for the input, people. It's such a tough decision. Being advised to go to Pitt is making me realize how much I want to go to Penn, but holy geez, a half-million dollars in student loan payments is no joke.

 

[TheFlashMD]

Here's something to consider. Assume your loan interest rates are about 7%. And you pay it off in 15 years post-graduation. Here are your monthly loan payments not including your post-bac debt (which will be the same in either case)...assuming you can afford to start full payments in residency, which you probably won't be able to do.

Pitt: 1510.03 (18k/year for 15 years)
Penn: 2516.03 (30k/year for 15 years)

So it's an extra 1k a month for 15 years. Is that it worth it to you?

Likewise, if you go into forbearance during residency (assuming 6 year for internal medicine sub-specialty), you're looking at a debtload of 500,000$ that is now all principal (Interest accrused would be then capitalized 😱). Which would equate to 6g's a month, just on loans for 10 year standard repayment plan.

So most likely you'll have to do IBR or make interest only payments in residency just to hold serve. Which is no cakewalk either.

 

[TheFlashMD]

I'm not sure anything can beat the NYC-Philly BoltBus. It only cost me $11 to get back to NYC from Penn Preview!

But seriously, thanks for the input, people. It's such a tough decision. Being advised to go to Pitt is making me realize how much I want to go to Penn, but holy geez, a half-million dollars in student loan payments is no joke.

That 500g could be as much as three quarters of a mill if you don't pay anything during residency. That's the kicker. That loan calculator assumes if you start making full payments after graduation, which on a residency salary is impossible.

If you plan to have a family at all, a house in a reasonable neighborhood, and God forbid your future kids want to go to college, I'd think twice about taking on that kind of debt. Especially since you got a scholarship to another top school.

 

[Roochie411]

I completely agree with the PITT people. The med school has an incredibly reputation. You will be able to do everything you want with an MD from there.

Flash said it will....Take the money and run!

 

[wolfiemd]

I thought Penn was known for matching aid awards? Btw, i think i met you at Pitt's second look OP

 

[Reticent]

Having lived in or near both cities I can say from experience that Philly is only marginally more fun than Pittsburgh, and that is only if you have considerable free time.

You are not going to have considerable free time.

Were it me I'd do my schooling at Pitt and then get myself hired by Penn.

 

[mdeast]

I thought Penn was known for matching aid awards? Btw, i think i met you at Pitt's second look OP

If this is possible...call up Penn right now! No hurt in trying.

 

[IAmMyOwnTwin]

Mdeast, I know you are waitlisted at Penn -- I've been seeing you on the Penn thread and keep hoping I'll come on SDN one day and see that you've gotten in. Good luck! Something very good could come your way in the next few days, and I hope it does.

Thanks, folks, for looking up just how dire my financial situation is going to be. It's really pretty bad, huh? It's so hard to make decisions regarding my financial future from this vantage point. I don't know if I will have a family in 10 years or what specialty I will be doing or what my income will be or what these interest payments will really feel like. Will $2500 interest payments mean living modestly but comfortably or will they mean living in a tiny studio, eating ramen, and never doing anything fun? Will I have to downgrade my cats from Fancy Feast to Meow Mix? God forbid.

 

[IAmMyOwnTwin]

If this is possible...call up Penn right now! No hurt in trying.

I have tried. They said all their merit dollars are committed, but they will keep me in mind if someone else declines a merit scholarship.

 

[BlueElmo]

Go to Pitt.

 

[YellowDiamond]

There are incredible opportunities at Pitt. (Anyone notice how much UPMC is plastered around the boards at Pens games?) As others have said, take the money and run.

 

[guyski79]

life is about options. will penn give you more options than the extra debt will take away? i'd probably say no, but this is your decision. only you can make that judgment.

but think about it both short and long-term.

 

[IAmMyOwnTwin]

I thought Penn was known for matching aid awards? Btw, i think i met you at Pitt's second look OP

Nope! I missed Pitt's second look because I hadn't found out about the scholarship and thought I was going to Penn. That's part of what makes this nerve-wracking. I didn't get a chance to meet other accepted students and find out if Pitt "feels right".

I do have a happy disposition, though, so I could probably be happy a lot of places. What did you think of Pitt's second look, Wolfie? Were you impressed?

 

[TheFlashMD]

Mdeast, I know you are waitlisted at Penn -- I've been seeing you on the Penn thread and keep hoping I'll come on SDN one day and see that you've gotten in. Good luck! Something very good could come your way in the next few days, and I hope it does.

Thanks, folks, for looking up just how dire my financial situation is going to be. It's really pretty bad, huh? It's so hard to make decisions regarding my financial future from this vantage point. I don't know if I will have a family in 10 years or what specialty I will be doing or what my income will be or what these interest payments will really feel like. Will $2500 interest payments mean living modestly but comfortably or will they mean living in a tiny studio, eating ramen, and never doing anything fun? Will I have to downgrade my cats from Fancy Feast to Meow Mix? God forbid.

You're forgetting your post-bacc loans too. If you were to try to pay full payments starting right after graduation, you're looking at 330k total debt. Those payments would be at least 3800$/month. I'm not even counting the interest accruing in school. That's your ENTIRE residency salary. So not going to happen.

Forbearing on your loans (not paying anything through residency) causes the interest to accrue and capitalize. That means the interest becomes the principal. With rates as high as 8% on Grad PLUS loans, that will baloon to almost 500k. That will be about 6k in payments once you get out. Resulting in over 700k paid for your education.

If you did IBR or forbearance and paid interest only during residency you'd bring that total down to 550-600k. To pay interest only, you'd still have to live like a student all through residency.

 

[LeftyUM]

If it was me...Penn all the way. I didnt like Pitt too much when i interviewed. Sure theyre one of the largest (if not the largest) medical center in the US. But Penn is highly ranked for a reason. Go to Penn and never look back. You said it yourself you liked it, I think you pretty much answered your own question. If you focus too much on the money you will regret it later IMO. The difference in money is miniscule for what you are in getting in return by going to Penn.

 

[IAmMyOwnTwin]

Forbearing on your loans (not paying anything through residency) causes the interest to accrue and capitalize. That means the interest becomes the principal. With rates as high as 8% on Grad PLUS loans, that will baloon to almost 500k. That will be about 6k in payments once you get out. Resulting in over 700k paid for your education.

Thank you for explaining this. I was actually a little fuzzy on forbearance, but I understand now.

 

[phoenixsuns]

If it was me...Penn all the way. I didnt like Pitt too much when i interviewed. Sure theyre one of the largest (if not the largest) medical center in the US. But Penn is highly ranked for a reason. Go to Penn and never look back. You said it yourself you liked it, I think you pretty much answered your own question. If you focus too much on the money you will regret it later IMO. The difference in money is miniscule for what you are in getting in return by going to Penn.

i've never seen anybody say 110k before interest is miniscule. i'd say the advantage of going to penn vs pitt is more miniscule than the difference in money.

 

[TheFlashMD]

Thank you for explaining this. I was actually a little fuzzy on forbearance, but I understand now.

No problem.

I would like to add one more thing, I know Penn is higher ranked. But by how much 10 spots? The difference of that as far as 'opening doors' argument goes is likely negligible.

One thing that is likely to close doors is going to Penn. The difference is likely to be close to $200k once you've actually paid for it. You will likely be forced into a sub-specialty in order to pay your loans. The prospects for owning a home are slimmer. Good education for potential kids can be a problem (God forbid you have to put them through private school). You're likely to not have enough money to retire at a normal age since you spent close to a million dollars just on your education and you're older than most of your classmates.

This is likely the biggest financial decision of your life, and it will affect your finances almost your entire career. Choose wisely.

 

[LeftyUM]

No problem.

I would like to add one more thing, I know Penn is higher ranked. But by how much 10 spots? The difference of that as far as 'opening doors' argument goes is likely negligible.

One thing that is likely to close doors is going to Penn. The difference is likely to be close to $200k once you've actually paid for it. You will likely be forced into a sub-specialty in order to pay your loans. The prospects for owning a home are slimmer. Good education for potential kids can be a problem (God forbid you have to put them through private school). You're likely to not have enough money to retire at a normal age since you spent close to a million dollars just on your education and you're older than most of your classmates.

This is likely the biggest financial decision of your life, and it will affect your finances almost your entire career. Choose wisely.

Jesus stop scaring the guy. Hahaha this advice is exactly why I don't post up threads comparing scholarships. OP talk with your family, even other doctors. Don't buy into the load crap about needing to get into a subspecialty in order to pay for loans. How much you ultimately make is to a large part dependent on you. Your knowledge about business (private practice), where you wish to live etc...go to where you will be happy. While some advice on the forums is indeed helpful, the reverse is also true. You are going to be a professional, have fun and go somewhere where you will be happy.

 

[mdeast]

No problem.

I would like to add one more thing, I know Penn is higher ranked. But by how much 10 spots? The difference of that as far as 'opening doors' argument goes is likely negligible.

One thing that is likely to close doors is going to Penn. The difference is likely to be close to $200k once you've actually paid for it. You will likely be forced into a sub-specialty in order to pay your loans. The prospects for owning a home are slimmer. Good education for potential kids can be a problem (God forbid you have to put them through private school). You're likely to not have enough money to retire at a normal age since you spent close to a million dollars just on your education and you're older than most of your classmates.

This is likely the biggest financial decision of your life, and it will affect your finances almost your entire career. Choose wisely.

Chances are if you're going to Penn you're probably going to end up in a non-primary care specialty anyway. 🙂

I don't think the difference amounts to the same some sort of doomsday scenario. Things will always work out. You're a doc, you'll be fine. I think Penn docs with debt do end up doing pretty well for themselves in the end. But, to be honest, if you think you'd be happy going to a Top 15 school and saving 110k thousand (+interest) in the process, it's really a no-brainer. Choose Pitt.

Go with your gut, and know that in about 3 months you really won't care where you'are at. You'll care about how much work you have to do! 🙂

 

[mdeast]

FYI. How old are you? Once you're over 30 you're no longer required to file your parent's tax returns along with your own when applying for financial aid. So, your last one or two years financial aid package at both places might be way, way better and way more similar?

 

[QofQuimica]

OP, I vote that you go to Pitt and send the extra $110,000 to me. 😉

All kidding aside, there's not one iota of doubt in my mind that going to Penn is not worth that much extra debt. Pitt is a *great* research school. They have an Old Farts Club for the nontrads; you won't be the oldest. And if you love Penn so much, do an away rotation there as a senior and apply there for residency. How much nicer would it be to go to Penn four years from now and have them pay *you*, huh?

 

[IAmMyOwnTwin]

Jesus stop scaring the guy..

I'm a girl 🙂 but thanks, LeftyUM.

Everyone has good points. Someone else made a point in the MUSC (full-ride) vs JHU thread that there is no one right answer, and it's ultimately just a personal decision having to do with your goals and priorities.

I know this, and while I still haven't decided, I know I can't really go wrong here. I'm trying to not lose sight of the fact that I'm lucky to have both of these options.

 

[IAmMyOwnTwin]

FYI. How old are you? Once you're over 30 you're no longer required to file your parent's tax returns along with your own when applying for financial aid. So, your last one or two years financial aid package at both places might be way, way better and way more similar?

I am turning 30 this year. Is this really true? Penn financial aid did not mention that. I will call.

 

[JasonE]

OP, I vote that you go to Pitt and send the extra $110,000 to me. 😉

All kidding aside, there's not one iota of doubt in my mind that going to Penn is not worth that much extra debt. Pitt is a *great* research school. They have an Old Farts Club for the nontrads; you won't be the oldest. And if you love Penn so much, do an away rotation there as a senior and apply there for residency. How much nicer would it be to go to Penn four years from now and have them pay *you*, huh?

i thought residency positions were paid by the government (medicare)

 

[IAmMyOwnTwin]

I am turning 30 this year. Is this really true? Penn financial aid did not mention that. I will call.

Unfortunately, this is an urban legend. I just talked to them. They look at your parents' info no matter how old you are.

 

[mdeast]

Unfortunately, this is an urban legend. I just talked to them. They look at your parents' info no matter how old you are.

Really? Maybe it's school by school, because I definitely remember someone saying that one school I visited and being..."darn, I should have waited until 30 to apply to medical school". If you're already 30, it might be a good idea to take the cheaper option. No one wants to be 50 and still living like a student paying back debt.

 

[Charcoal]

OP: I WOULD STRONGLY RECOMMEND YOU TALK TO PENN ABOUT THE MONEY THAT PITT GAVE YOU (IF YOU HAVE NOT ALREADY DONE SO).

They are very willing to negotiate.

 

[wolfiemd]

Nope! I missed Pitt's second look because I hadn't found out about the scholarship and thought I was going to Penn. That's part of what makes this nerve-wracking. I didn't get a chance to meet other accepted students and find out if Pitt "feels right".

I do have a happy disposition, though, so I could probably be happy a lot of places. What did you think of Pitt's second look, Wolfie? Were you impressed?

I had a blast at Pitt's second look..it was really well-organized and my future classmates seem like pretty genuine, down-to-earth people. The students were hit or miss, most were great people although there were a few nutter butters. All-in-all, it's a wonderful place. I did get that slight competitive vibe, but i came from a pretty competitive undergrad so it was nothing new to me. Also, I'll make a pretty awesome classmate, btw! haha

To be perfectly honest, as happy as I am about Pitt, i would go to Penn in a heartbeat even with the massive amount of debt. Good luck with the decision! You really can't go wrong...

 

[QofQuimica]

i thought residency positions were paid by the government (medicare)

Are you always so technical about everything that you miss the actual point being made?

Yes, Medicare does fund most residency positions. But if we're going to be technical, the government gives the money to the hospital, and the hospital gives it to the resident. You're not a government employee as a resident; you're a hospital employee.

 

[mdeast]

I had a blast at Pitt's second look..it was really well-organized and my future classmates seem like pretty genuine, down-to-earth people. The students were hit or miss, most were great people although there were a few nutter butters. All-in-all, it's a wonderful place. I did get that slight competitive vibe, but i came from a pretty competitive undergrad so it was nothing new to me. Also, I'll make a pretty awesome classmate, btw! haha

To be perfectly honest, as happy as I am about Pitt, i would go to Penn in a heartbeat even with the massive amount of debt. Good luck with the decision! You really can't go wrong...

Again. 20 bucks that wolfie gets into Penn this weekend.

 

[TheFlashMD]

Chances are if you're going to Penn you're probably going to end up in a non-primary care specialty anyway. 🙂

I don't think the difference amounts to the same some sort of doomsday scenario. Things will always work out. You're a doc, you'll be fine. I think Penn docs with debt do end up doing pretty well for themselves in the end. But, to be honest, if you think you'd be happy going to a Top 15 school and saving 110k thousand (+interest) in the process, it's really a no-brainer. Choose Pitt.

Go with your gut, and know that in about 3 months you really won't care where you'are at. You'll care about how much work you have to do! 🙂

I'm not saying its a doomsday proposition. But the financial ramifications will be felt for a very long time. And that can not be overstated. It's a financial decision that will impact the next 15-20 years of her life.

The only problem, is that you're not comparing apples to apples in your comparison. The interests rates are no longer variable and at a steady 6.8% at the MINIMUM. You can't consolidate your loans for 2% during residency anymore. So you're looking at your complete debt load multiplying by a facotr of 1.5 once you're out of residency. Once you also take into account that tuition is significantly higher than 10 years ago and salaries have no increased. It's not as peachy keen as it once was.

I think the MUSC vs Hopkins thread is a MUCH harder decision than this one. There's nothing that a Top 5 school can provide that a Top 15 couldn't. Sure, she's a little closer to friends/family in NYC but is that really worth the extra 150-200k it will ultimately cost to be that close?

 

[TheFlashMD]

Really? Maybe it's school by school, because I definitely remember someone saying that one school I visited and being..."darn, I should have waited until 30 to apply to medical school". If you're already 30, it might be a good idea to take the cheaper option. No one wants to be 50 and still living like a student paying back debt.

As a corollary, you don't want to still being paying for your education when it's time to pay for your kids' education. 😱

 

[mdeast]

As a corollary, you don't want to still being paying for your education when it's time to pay for your kids' education. 😱

Well to be fair, not everyone plans on having kids...so this might not be a concern.

 

[JasonE]

Are you always so technical about everything that you miss the actual point being made?

Yes, Medicare does fund most residency positions. But if we're going to be technical, the government gives the money to the hospital, and the hospital gives it to the resident. You're not a government employee as a resident; you're a hospital employee.

hahah that was funny. yea i wasnt really looking at the main point. i was more or less joking.

 

[TheFlashMD]

Well to be fair, not everyone plans on having kids...so this might not be a concern.

🙄

Well to be fair, a lot of people plan to not have kids and do anyway. Oops!

 

[Bbon]

The people who are arguing finances are skewing the debate a bit because for the most part, they're not exactly highlighting the fact that you're going to be walking out of Pitt with significant debt as well. Sure $500,000 seems like a daunting amount of money, but so does $350,000. Over the course of a lifetime with a physician's salary, the extra money might not be a huge dealbreaker. That's not to dismiss $150,000, but you have to consider, both ways you'll need to live frugally for a while, and either way you'll also have many years of loan repayments.

Okay, so onto my opinion. Like you, I definitely liked Penn more than Pitt after interviewing at both schools. At Penn, you get three afternoons off per week during pre-clinicals, whereas you're pretty much in class till 5 every day at Pitt. Now extend this for a full two years, versus 1.5 at Penn, and I feel like Penn students have an appreciably better situation. Pitt also requires the scholarly project, which wouldn't be a big deal, except you don't have the 4 extra months of freedom to do it like you would at Penn. All in all, I'm inclined to think you'd not only be happier at Penn, but also have better opportunities (granted Pitt is a wonderful school too), and if all that is worth a thousand dollars per month for fifteen years, I can't really say. But I think it's a very legitimate dilemma. For the record, I chose Penn, but I don't have any undergrad debt to worry about.