Pritzker vs. Columbia vs. Duke

[phuynh94]

Allow me to first say that I feel incredibly fortunate to in my current position. Medical school admissions can be such a crapshoot process, and I had very little expectations regarding how my cycle would pan out. I delved in knowing that my greatest strengths were my numbers and my greatest weaknesses being my difficulty initiating and maintaining conversation. I knew while my application may be competitive on paper, my weaker interpersonal skills would limit me once I reach the interview stage.

Still, my cycle ended up being so much more successful than I expected. It has been just...surreal. I still can't believe my options: Pritzker, Columbia, and Duke.

I know this is a situation where I simply cannot go wrong. All three are fantastic institutions, and I know I would be incredibly happy wherever I go. That said, there are some things that I like about each institution, so I'm going to jot down my thoughts:

University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine
4 year cost: $165K
PROS

• $200K merit scholarship. As someone whose parental income fluctuates heavily, having a merit-based scholarship does wonders in helping me estimating my total costs and how much I'll owe over 4 years.
• Hyde Park's low cost of living and proximity to Downtown Chicago.
• The level of support and warmth that radiates among administration, faculty, and students
• "Teachers of teachers" mentality and mentorship
• Emphasis on interdisciplinary studies, including access to other courses in the UChicago system
• Focus on underserved communities and healthcare disparities
• Scholarship & Discovery, with its mentorship opportunities and exploration of the different tracks
• No car necessary until at least third year.
• The food scene.
• The warm fuzzies and excitement I felt on Interview Day and Revisit.

CONS

• 2 year preclinical; I would prefer something shorter to have more time to explore various (competitive) specialties
• Chicago winters

Columbia University College of Physicians & Surgeons
4 year cost: $192K, assuming aid doesn't fluctuate
*I contacted Columbia regarding my aid at Pritzker, and was told that they would forward it to the scholarship committee, with no guarantee of anything.
PROS

• 1.5 year preclinical, thus leaving more time to strengthen/tailor my application towards my field of interest (whatever it happens to be after rotations)
• Strength of clinical years? Out of the three schools, only P&S students Raved about their role as MS3s and clinical skills
• Most thorough exposure to the surgical subspecialties, as detailed in the curriculum. As someone who has never shadowed a surgeon, I cannot say if I'm super interested in the field. However if I happen to be, P&S has a strong history of matching its students into surgery is a definite plus.
• NYC!
• No car necessary (or encouraged, for that matter)
• The connections available and associated with Columbia's name and brand. (Inbreeding happens.)
• The diversity of the patient population.
• The food scene.

CONS

• The cost of living. Even in Washington Heights, living expenses are considerably higher than Hyde Park or Durham
• New York winters
• Insecurity associated with need-based aid and my parents' fluctuating (and thus, unpredictable) income.

Duke University School of Medicine
4 year cost: $189K, assuming that aid does not fluctuate
*I contacted Duke regarding my aid at Pritzker, and was told that they would not match the offer
PROS

• 1 year preclinical to make room for "Year FREEEE" to conduct research or pursue a dual degree. With residency admissions being as competitive as they are, the built in year of research is really appealing
• Durham's low cost of living
• Durham's mild climate, in comparison to Chicago and New York
• The warm fuzzies and excitement I felt on Interview Day
• Having a top hospital system in the South while also being the local hospital for the underserved

CONS

• Compared to Chicago and NYC, Durham is boring. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but is worth noting. On the upside, this "easy living" town would really force me to make the best of all the opportunities available at Duke, and I can appreciate that.
• Insecurity associated with need-based aid and my parents' fluctuating (and thus, unpredictable) income.
• I will need to bring my car
• The food scene is (relatively) limited

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[Duke1K]

Great comparisons, but you haven't told us much about yourself. What are your goals? Academic medicine? Teaching? Research? Private practice? Leaning towards any particular specialty? Any family considerations? What kind of person are you? The three cities are very, very different and the schools are microcosms of that.

 

[benjamin94559]

Full disclosure I'm continued at Pritzker

If I were you I'd go to Columbia just because NYC is such a magical place and 35K over 4 years isn't too much to worry about. Does Columbia not guarantee your grants over 4 years? Also what did you think about the dorm style living they have at Columbia? I know some people really hate it but others are fine with it. I don't really know much about duke to really have an opinion but personally, I'm very much a city person so I never looked at it from the start.

Congrats though! Looks like you had a good cycle

 

[longtimelurker2015]

I don't think you can go wrong with any of those, so call me crazy, but at this point, I think it has to come down to where you see yourself for 4 years, where you feel you will fit in, where you "clicked." You mentioned "fuzzies and excitement" at Pritzker, and it sounds like since you had those again at revisit, it wasn't just a fluke or a one-time thing, but something you really felt at the school. Plus, that's your most affordable option, and you don't have to worry about fluctuating aid every year. I vote Pritzker!

 

[occams_razor]

Congrats - they're all amazing schools! I'd go with Pritzker unless Columbia matches your Pritzker scholarship. If they do, then I'd go with Columbia.

 

[Eternal_Premed_Struggle]

It's always nice to see hard work paying off. congrats! Pritzker has my vote.

 

[phuynh94]

Thank you all for your responses and support!

Great comparisons, but you haven't told us much about yourself. What are your goals? Academic medicine? Teaching? Research? Private practice? Leaning towards any particular specialty? Any family considerations? What kind of person are you? The three cities are very, very different and the schools are microcosms of that.

Goals: I see myself pursuing academic medicine, at least via working at a teaching hospital. While I don't necessarily see myself working towards professorship, I do love the balance of clinical practice, research, and mentorship involved.

Specialty: I'm biased; I spent many years working with kids and adolescents, so I hope to work in a specialty focusing on those populations. That said, I also haven't exposed myself to many specialties (i.e. surgery, subfields of internal med), so I'm open to seeing a lot!

Family: I mean, my parents are dying for me to be pulled off UCSF's waitlist and stay in California, but...hypotheticals are hypotheticals. Other than that, no preference.

 

[phuynh94]

Full disclosure I'm continued at Pritzker

If I were you I'd go to Columbia just because NYC is such a magical place and 35K over 4 years isn't too much to worry about. Does Columbia not guarantee your grants over 4 years? Also what did you think about the dorm style living they have at Columbia?

Congrats though! Looks like you had a good cycle

Need-based aid is reviewed every year, although most students have told me that aid tends to be comparable year to year. Unfortunately, because my parents' income fluctuates, it is difficult for me to see how much aid I would receive--even though my family and I have agreed that they will not contribute to my medical education.

I was a resident assistant for 2 years in college, haha. I love and hate different aspects of dorm life, but would be totally find doing it again for 1 more year.

 

[Duke1K]

There's a lot more to these schools that the factors you listed, but I wouldn't expect most MS0s to know or anticipate how it impacts school culture/education. Your goals are pretty non-specific. For that reason, I'd say go to Pritzker and follow the money. If you seemed like the city-type and was strongly interested in surgery, Columbia would be the choice (though you'd probably know that already). I'd recommend Duke if you had a better sense of how you'd use the third year (though having clinicals before research will help you narrow down your specialty choices). Clinically, Pritzker is probably the weakest; there's no VA; it's not a level 1 trauma (maybe one will be built by your clinical year); its peds department is not very strong; it has a very traditional curriculum, etc. but honestly it's all a wash when you're a med student. You'll do great there and your wallet will thank you for it.

 

[phuynh94]

There's a lot more to these schools that the factors you listed, but I wouldn't expect most MS0s to know or anticipate how it impacts school culture/education. Your goals are pretty non-specific. For that reason, I'd say go to Pritzker and follow the money. If you seemed like the city-type and was strongly interested in surgery, Columbia would be the choice (though you'd probably know that already). I'd recommend Duke if you had a better sense of how you'd use the third year (though having clinicals before research will help you narrow down your specialty choices). Clinically, Pritzker is probably the weakest; there's no VA; it's not a level 1 trauma (maybe one will be built by your clinical year); its peds department is not very strong; it has a very traditional curriculum, etc. but honestly it's all a wash when you're a med student. You'll do great there and your wallet will thank you for it.

Thanks for your response! Would you say that Duke provides a lot of mentorship in helping the student shape the third year, or are students for the most part on their own?

Also, would you mind listing some of the other factors that you think may be good to note?

 

[Duke1K]

Thanks for your response! Would you say that Duke provides a lot of mentorship in helping the student shape the third year, or are students for the most part on their own?

Also, would you mind listing some of the other factors that you think may be good to note?

Yes and no. There's always great mentorship if you seek them out, and we have many Third Year seminars and infosessions and whatnot (too many IMO). But with things like research, you have to schedule meetings with research mentors on your own, decide if you are suited to his/her lab, decide if you want to work on that topic, etc. Duke won't go out of its way to hold your hand through the decision-making process, though it will if you ask (the advisory deans are fantastic). If you want to go away for Third Year, that's almost entirely on your own for obvious reasons. Point is, this is grad school, and you have to seek out opportunities and collaborations to maximize your experiences. If you don't, it's easy to put off Third Year until late Second Year when all the scholarship deadlines have passed and some labs are full, but honestly chances are you'll still be set with a good project and PI.

Applying for scholarships is easy and straightforward. You just need to plan ahead and be aware of deadlines.

Other factors won't really be relevant to you since you're not set on a particular field of inquiry. Some things I can think of off the top of my head are how the curriculum integrates itself with research; the relative research and clinical strengths of its various departments especially medicine and surgery; big names at the school; depth and breadth of the ECs students participate in; whether the institutional culture is more bureaucratic v. technocratic v. traditional v. "edgy"; match list particularly looking at IM and ROAD specialties; AOA v. P/F all preclinical v. internal ranking; how the clinical year is set up in terms of # and length of rotations and their locations +%shelf grade determination; when the last time they did something innovative in curriculum; support for student wellness and mental health; integration with free clinics/working with underserved patient populations; patient diversity, especially how underserved communities view the flagship hospital; proximity of hospital sites to student residences; affordability of student housing; how fast administration responds to email; things I mentioned before like whether they have a VA, childrens hospital, lvl 1 trauma, +how big their catchment areas is, yadda yadda. All of these aren't decision points for you; they're just things you'll be aware of as you progress through medical school, and are minor things that, in aggregate, paints a better picture of your 4-year academic experience. In terms of your own happiness and success, well, that mostly depends on you.

 

[phuynh94]

Other factors won't really be relevant to you since you're not set on a particular field of inquiry. Some things I can think of off the top of my head are how the curriculum integrates itself with research; the relative research and clinical strengths of its various departments especially medicine and surgery; big names at the school; depth and breadth of the ECs students participate in; whether the institutional culture is more bureaucratic v. technocratic v. traditional v. "edgy"; match list particularly looking at IM and ROAD specialties; AOA v. P/F all preclinical v. internal ranking; how the clinical year is set up in terms of # and length of rotations and their locations +%shelf grade determination; when the last time they did something innovative in curriculum; support for student wellness and mental health; integration with free clinics/working with underserved patient populations; patient diversity, especially how underserved communities view the flagship hospital; proximity of hospital sites to student residences; affordability of student housing; how fast administration responds to email; things I mentioned before like whether they have a VA, childrens hospital, lvl 1 trauma, +how big their catchment areas is, yadda yadda. All of these aren't decision points for you; they're just things you'll be aware of as you progress through medical school, and are minor things that, in aggregate, paints a better picture of your 4-year academic experience. In terms of your own happiness and success, well, that mostly depends on you.

Ohh, I haven't even thought about some of these things. Thank you for bringing them into light! I believe all 3 schools have unranked P/F preclinicals, though please correct me if I'm wrong. Would you mind explaining the importance (or lack thereof) of a VA or Level 1 trauma center?

I'm trying to look into information about the clinical years, since all 3 schools glossed over this information. If you could provide any information (even at just 1 school), I would very much appreciate it!

 

[Duke1K]

Ohh, I haven't even thought about some of these things. Thank you for bringing them into light! I believe all 3 schools have unranked P/F preclinicals, though please correct me if I'm wrong. Would you mind explaining the importance (or lack thereof) of a VA or Level 1 trauma center?

I'm trying to look into information about the clinical years, since all 3 schools glossed over this information. If you could provide any information (even at just 1 school), I would very much appreciate it!

Again, none of these things matter in the long run. Most of the things I listed there just skews your patient population in one direction or another. Not having a VA means, obviously, you won't get to experience the VA system, which is valuable from a learning perspective as the largest healthcare system in the US, but not critical to have at all. Not having a level 1 trauma center means that many critically ill patients get shipped off somewhere else, meaning your exposure in the fields of EM, trauma surg, and critical care/ICU may be less. Again, doesn't really matter too much as a med student, unless you want to go into those fields (and even then, barely so). Each school has strengths in certain departments, and if you're gunning for a specialty then this may matter. For most, it doesn't at all.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Columbia, but I'm biased

They're all great schools, obviously.

I wouldn't say we're just good at putting our students into surgery - we're good at putting them into everything. But the same can really be said of both Duke and Chicago as well.

For what it's worth, we are unranked P/F as well. There is a lot of emphasis on serving underserved populations (not just SE disadvantaged, but other populations like LGBTQ as well), and many students volunteer in a free clinic in some way or another. There are varying commitment levels from several hours every week to a few hours every months whenever you have free time (which is what I do), and they're all fantastic and serve different communities.

For what it's worth, I would say the mentorship here is top notch, at least from what I've experienced - people really like talking to medical students and getting them involved all across the board in a variety of different ways, and if you're not sure exactly how to go about reaching out to people, both your Advisory Dean (who you have lunch with every week) and the specialty interest groups are great at getting you in touch with the right people for your interests.

A lot of people are are also involved in interdisciplinary studies. Many people take language classes their first semester while others take classes like statistics, upper level math, and even computer science at the undergrad campus. If you came to revisit you saw all the extremely talented people here who pursue things like acting, dancing, musicianship, etc both here at CUMC and throughout the rest of NYC.

Additionally, our narrative medicine course in the spring (which we're in right now) focuses on tying in medicine to things like writing, photography, drawing, and even cartooning (and other things I'm forgetting).

The winters are going to be a lot better here than they are in Chicago. I would arguably say they're better than Duke's because that part of the south does get snow - they're just not great at dealing with it (meaning driving will be absolutely a nightmare those days), while NYC generally knows how to handle it pretty well.

Sorry, I don't think I'm hitting all your questions - I'm multitasking right now so I probably missed some things, but definitely happy to answer any other questions you might have.

And we'd obviously love to have you at P&S

 

[Duke1K]

I would arguably say they're better than Duke's because that part of the south does get snow - they're just not great at dealing with it (meaning driving will be absolutely a nightmare those days

Whoa whoa whoa this is actually a plus. The one week a year we do get snow, all school activities get canceled, including mandatory lectures and clinical duties. Everyone goes outside to play in the snow =).

 

[WedgeDawg]

Whoa whoa whoa this is actually a plus. The one week a year we do get snow, all school activities get canceled, including mandatory lectures and clinical duties. Everyone goes outside to play in the snow =).

I guess you could spin it either way

 

[enchantediris]

Columbia, but I'm biased
The winters are going to be a lot better here than they are in Chicago. I would arguably say they're better than Duke's because that part of the south does get snow - they're just not great at dealing with it (meaning driving will be absolutely a nightmare those days), while NYC generally knows how to handle it pretty well.

As someone who's lived in NC and the NE, I would much prefer winters where people freak out when the low is under 30 and there isn't as much darn wind. The (actual) amount of snow that falls in NY is so much more than the usual projected 0.25-1" in NC, but I also usually only have fun with the first snowfall of the year and quickly get sick of it! However, the cultures between the north and south are also very different, and not just because NYC is a large city and Duke is in suburbia.

 

[phuynh94]

Columbia, but I'm biased

They're all great schools, obviously.

I wouldn't say we're just good at putting our students into surgery - we're good at putting them into everything. But the same can really be said of both Duke and Chicago as well.

For what it's worth, we are unranked P/F as well. There is a lot of emphasis on serving underserved populations (not just SE disadvantaged, but other populations like LGBTQ as well), and many students volunteer in a free clinic in some way or another. There are varying commitment levels from several hours every week to a few hours every months whenever you have free time (which is what I do), and they're all fantastic and serve different communities.

For what it's worth, I would say the mentorship here is top notch, at least from what I've experienced - people really like talking to medical students and getting them involved all across the board in a variety of different ways, and if you're not sure exactly how to go about reaching out to people, both your Advisory Dean (who you have lunch with every week) and the specialty interest groups are great at getting you in touch with the right people for your interests.

A lot of people are are also involved in interdisciplinary studies. Many people take language classes their first semester while others take classes like statistics, upper level math, and even computer science at the undergrad campus. If you came to revisit you saw all the extremely talented people here who pursue things like acting, dancing, musicianship, etc both here at CUMC and throughout the rest of NYC.

Additionally, our narrative medicine course in the spring (which we're in right now) focuses on tying in medicine to things like writing, photography, drawing, and even cartooning (and other things I'm forgetting).

The winters are going to be a lot better here than they are in Chicago. I would arguably say they're better than Duke's because that part of the south does get snow - they're just not great at dealing with it (meaning driving will be absolutely a nightmare those days), while NYC generally knows how to handle it pretty well.

Sorry, I don't think I'm hitting all your questions - I'm multitasking right now so I probably missed some things, but definitely happy to answer any other questions you might have.

And we'd obviously love to have you at P&S

Thanks so much for the information! Given that students at P&S have an extra few months (due to the shorter preclinical) to do research, would you say that taking an extra research year is common for those going into competitive specialties? What estimated percentage (if you know) happen to pursue it?

Also, I'm from SoCal. Even with an early childhood in Seattle, it will take me a while to adjust to winters wherever I go.

 

[Okazaki Frag Grenade]

Whoa whoa whoa this is actually a plus. The one week a year we do get snow, all school activities get canceled, including mandatory lectures and clinical duties. Everyone goes outside to play in the snow =).

As someone who's lived in NC and the NE, I would much prefer winters where people freak out when the low is under 30 and there isn't as much darn wind. The (actual) amount of snow that falls in NY is so much more than the usual projected 0.25-1" in NC, but I also usually only have fun with the first snowfall of the year and quickly get sick of it! However, the cultures between the north and south are also very different, and not just because NYC is a large city and Duke is in suburbia.

I've posted this picture before, but it's a good indicator of how we handle the snow down here in NC

 

[WedgeDawg]

Thanks so much for the information! Given that students at P&S have an extra few months (due to the shorter preclinical) to do research, would you say that taking an extra research year is common for those going into competitive specialties? What estimated percentage (if you know) happen to pursue it?

Also, I'm from SoCal. Even with an early childhood in Seattle, it will take me a while to adjust to winters wherever I go.

I think about 20% (I can't verify how accurate this number is - it might be a higher number) take a year off to do an MBA, MS, MA, MPH, or do research but I can't tell you the split amongst those. The two specialties that seem to most commonly have applicants taking a research year are neurosurgery and ENT. However, I have met people going into other specialties including IM and Peds who have either taken or are planning on taking a research year.

 

[justadream]

I think about 20% (I can't verify how accurate this number is - it might be a higher number) take a year off to do an MBA, MS, MA, MPH, or do research but I can't tell you the split amongst those. The two specialties that seem to most commonly have applicants taking a research year are neurosurgery and ENT. However, I have met people going into other specialties including IM and Peds who have either taken or are planning on taking a research year.

Surprised it isn't derm/plastics.

Roughly what % of people do research during MS1? Since it is p/f unranked, how feasible do you think this is?

 

[WedgeDawg]

Surprised it isn't derm/plastics.

Roughly what % of people do research during MS1? Since it is p/f unranked, how feasible do you think this is?

A lot more people here go into ENT/Neurosurgery than go into Derm/Plastics, so it might just be a sampling bias.

I think a decent number of people get started on research during late MS1 that they continue into the summer as their summer research experience, but definitely not all people do research their first summer, and not all people who do pursue research their first summer get started on it during the year. It's definitely not a necessity in most cases.

 

[p0gono]

You mentioned your interpersonal skills as something you're working on, so I wonder if any of the schools stand out to you as somewhere you were most comfortable, fit in the best, and could envision yourself making the best friends.

It sounds like you didn't attend revisits at P&S or Duke, so your impressions may be limited, but maybe enough to have a gut feeling.

With your choices being so close in price and opportunities, if I were you I would go where I had the most natural conversations, where I could envision myself having the most rewarding relationships.

Just my two cents - I visited Columbia and Pritzker and loved both, and found the student vibes to be pretty similar. One distinction is that P&S felt a little more artsy and hip, Pritzker a bit more social justice oriented and touchy feely.

 

[Psai]

Sounds like you liked U Chicago the most
Durham is no new york or chicago but you got raleigh nearby. And Duke has one of the most beautiful hospitals
New York kinda sucks though, it's dirty, crowded and washington heights is not exactly the nicest area either

 

[Tots]

No car necessary until at least third year.

No car needed even in 3rd year. Source: I am a third year without a car.

They put you in a hotel for any rotations not at UofC.

Chicago winters

Global warming bro.

 

[BphysDoc]

Chicago winters have been relatively mild recently. In the last five years, we didn't have any major blizzards - I am starting to miss them!

 

[phuynh94]

Chicago winters have been relatively mild recently. In the last five years, we didn't have any major blizzards - I am starting to miss them!

Please don't jinx it.

 

[phuynh94]

Thank you, all, for your feedback and kind words! I'm excited to say that I've chosen to attend Pritzker!