RANT HERE thread

Veterinary Science Graduate Certificate from UofI
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My GP vets definitely see a lot of ears (and allergies too) and do ear cytologies on them before treating.
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that redhead said:
@PippyPony who was it not running cytology or refusing your CT request? I’d go to the head clinician and say “please schedule kitten for CT next Monday. Do the ear cytology while he’s out.”
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Part of the problem is that there isn't a single point of contact, which I think is a function of how student cases get handled at our hospital (e.g. is unique to this case, not reflective of general state of things, nor any oversight on behalf of any one person). I think I will try an approach like this, thank you for the advice.

...Should also clarify that they didn't refuse diagnostics outright or anything like that -- I asked about scheduling a CT and they told me how to do that if I want to. And I empathize with the doctors who have seen him, because he's not critical and magically seems to get better whenever we step into the hospital, so I am sure I seem like I am overreacting and/or looking for things that are not there. Maybe they are also trying to approach this with less hand-holding for my benefit and are assuming I will push for things I want done because I am a student.

Again, I'll probably delete these posts later because I don't want to demonize our hospital or the individuals involved -- I am frustrated right now so my statements are clouded by that emotion & leaving a one-sided rant out there in the ether would be unfair to people who I actually respect a lot.
 
Minnerbelle said:
Well that was the frustrating part. I’ve had some complicated rhinitis patients that had other things going on so wanted to really rule out polyps/tumors/FB (esp when it seemed unilateral) and the owner was up for it. It just makes me look really bad for offering the referral.
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Yikesssss.

Yeah, that dismissal just doesn't make sense to me from a common sense standpoint. Ok sure, viruses are by far the most common etiology of feline rhinitis overall, but most viruses don't pick one side of the nose. (I am a student and do not know a lot, but I do know that lol). So... the differential list should change.

I'm sorry, those follow up conversations with your clients must have stunk. Also feels disrespectful to you as the referring clinician because it's like they are assuming you didn't consider common stuff before referring to a specialty service.

In my old cat's case (years ago at a different hospital in a different part of the country) he had unilateral epistaxis and it was classified as chronic post-viral rhinosinusitis for months because he wasn't a German Shepherd.

There's a talk at AAFP this year on localizing respiratory disease in cats and I really wish I could go.
 
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@PippyPony I think the whole “no singular point of contact” is pretty common in both teaching hospitals and larger referral centers and it’s frustrating! Even worse when someone informally consults neuro/surgery/derm/whoever in the building passing in the hallway but that person never actually looks at the pet, a note is never written about the conversation, etc.

I think if you want to go further, say so and schedule it. I frequently tell people that it’s never wrong to get more information (whether or not that information changes the plan is another story of course).

As for cytology...I run them on every single ear case, every time. I tell owners I need to know what’s causing the problem so that whatever I treat with won’t fail. The vast majority of the time, they agree. When they don’t, I tell them because I don’t know what the infection consists of, whatever (price here) med I send home may not be effective. And then they’ll be back, paying another exam fee, a cytology and another med :laugh:
 
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mmmdreamerz said:
So strange. I feel like it’s the opposite here and clinicians really go above and beyond for student pets. Sorry you had to deal with that crap
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In some cases they really do... Just last week I was allowed to sit in on a super cool procedure for my other cat. And stepping back for a second, I really do believe that every single doctor in our hospital wants what is best for all the animals who come through the doors. If it doesn't always feel that way, then in my opinion it's certainly not intentional or consciously done.

I will also freely admit that maybe I am just straight up wrong here or don't have enough experience/context to understand why certain things were not getting recommended in this case. My ranting may be entirely misplaced.

Ultimately I'm just a crazy cat lady who is worried about her weird n' sickly cats.

Maybe I should stop adopting lemons. Lol
 
Thank you for your advice and support, everyone.

My cats send their love and appreciation, which in their case means you now have a virtual cat bite.

Btw... kitten in question picked up my contact lens case this morning in his mouth and then dropped it in his water bowl to get me to feed him breakfast. Then later on when I wasn't playing with him, he jumped on my neck jaguar-style and bit my hair. So let me end this discussion by saying I understand why he might have trouble acquiring new allies outside the family.
 
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genny said:
What kind of broken?
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GI broken. Distended, painful crainoabdomen. Got herself a trip to the vth ER last night. Rads showed lots of food stuff compacted in her stomach. Currently a wait and see game if she improves by the time I get home this afternoon or she gets reradiographed for possible foreign body is the top of their list currently. She was still pretty painful and distended this am when I left for school. Hopefully she resolves by the time I get home this afternoon.
 
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I'm sorry that you have all had those experiences with teaching hospitals. There are definitely issues when things have to be coordinated across services. Even though middle-ear patients can have vestibular signs, I am not really very comfortable managing an ear problem long-term so I tend to try to toss them to another service once we figure out that it isn't central disease. I'm definitely the resident who asks the student who's already been through comm practice or derm how to do an ear cytology at the VTH. Sorry if that makes me an idiot and incompetent vet, but it is what it is. I don't have the mental space to keep these things in my brain.

But again this isn't only because I don't want to do it, or because I am super busy all the time managing the seizure dogs and back dogs and MUO dogs and etc etc...this is because I am NOT THE BEST PERSON for it for a lot of reasons. Most of the time quite honestly the best person for that sort of thing is the patient's primary veterinarian.

I swear I am not accusing anyone of this either so please don't take what I'm about to say next the wrong way. But sometimes when I see some veterinarians' pets, I feel like they're just trying to 'use me' for the fact that we have an MRI in the building and I have a set of hands that can do a spinal surgery when they can't, or whatever. Their expectation is that they come in and get the MRI and schedule the surgery or whatever, not that they come in and talk to me, the resident in the field, and have a dialogue about what is the appropriate next step. And I feel like that's unfair. I don't know, just something I sometimes notice.
 
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@nyanko ugh that’s awful! I haven’t had to see any specialists yet (knock on wood) but whenever that time comes it will be because I can’t treat my own pets and I want the best for them and that includes the best brains in the case, not mine! I feel like I’d be like “hi Dr Nyanko this is my Corgi who of course has a back problem and help I don’t know what to do and even if I did I don’t want to be the one to do it now what?!”
 
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nyanko said:
I'm sorry that you have all had those experiences with teaching hospitals. There are definitely issues when things have to be coordinated across services. Even though middle-ear patients can have vestibular signs, I am not really very comfortable managing an ear problem long-term so I tend to try to toss them to another service once we figure out that it isn't central disease. I'm definitely the resident who asks the student who's already been through comm practice or derm how to do an ear cytology at the VTH. Sorry if that makes me an idiot and incompetent vet, but it is what it is. I don't have the mental space to keep these things in my brain.
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I don't think it makes you an idiot or an incompetent vet at all -- I feel like recognizing limitations and rerouting/delegating appropriately is a hugely important skill in life, let alone in a veterinary med situation. It's an important leadership trait, not a weakness.

In the case I was whining about a while back, I would have loved to have been referred internally to another service for a consult. It's one of the reasons for having all these specialties under one roof in the first place.

I'm sorry you feel like some other clinicians sometimes use you as a robot :( It's my understanding that one of the perks of being a specialist is that you get to act as an advisor to other vets and work as a team, so I can understand why you would feel saddened when that dialogue does not really take place.
 
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nyanko said:
I'm definitely the resident who asks the student who's already been through comm practice or derm how to do an ear cytology at the VTH. Sorry if that makes me an idiot and incompetent vet, but it is what it is. I don't have the mental space to keep these things in my brain.

But again this isn't only because I don't want to do it, or because I am super busy all the time managing the seizure dogs and back dogs and MUO dogs and etc etc...this is because I am NOT THE BEST PERSON for it for a lot of reasons. Most of the time quite honestly the best person for that sort of thing is the patient's primary veterinarian.
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Oh dude, I wasn’t implying that it was a deficiency of any sort that specialists/interns/residents aren’t good with chronic skin/ear stuff. It really just is what it is. It’s just something they don’t do, and isn’t something I expect them to do. There’s a reason why you are a specialist after all. Things like chronic skin and teeth are things I just don’t expect to be taken care of well through the ER or speciality hospital unless the pet is being seeing by that particular department. The only problem I have is when appropriate follow-up is not recommended (e.g. see your gp or schedule consult with appropriate dept). I don’t have issues with bandaid treatment in the interim even if not the most appropriate just as I’m sure I do that often prior to referring specialty cases, but I do have issues with clients being told the pet is all set when they aren’t. Typically I give the other DVM benefit of doubt regardless of what the clients tell me, but often times the discharges corroborate their side of the story...

nyanko said:
I swear I am not accusing anyone of this either so please don't take what I'm about to say next the wrong way. But sometimes when I see some veterinarians' pets, I feel like they're just trying to 'use me' for the fact that we have an MRI in the building and I have a set of hands that can do a spinal surgery when they can't, or whatever. Their expectation is that they come in and get the MRI and schedule the surgery or whatever, not that they come in and talk to me, the resident in the field, and have a dialogue about what is the appropriate next step. And I feel like that's unfair. I don't know, just something I sometimes notice.
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Oh I get how that would be frustrating. The problem I have is actually the opposite. Obviously I take them in because they need some sort of diagnostics/treatment that I personally can’t perform, but I go in expecting to go through all the hoops that any other client needs to go through (and thus the admit through the ER and hospitalization and such). But I always tell the receiving vet that I can’t stay objective with my own pets so for them to do anything and everything needed. And somehow it ends up with my pets getting minimal things, and I’m not sure why that is. And by minimal, I mean things that I’m sure would be done with other client pets just don’t happen. And I don’t want to be that person who refuses to work with interns, and I don’t want to be the person who dictates treatments so I give each one the chance to do whatever they feel is appropriate without much input. Maybe this lack of input is what makes people do minimal... but I’m not sure how much more I can say other than “please do anything and everything he needs, I’m perfectly fine with up to $X for supportive care and basic diagnostics overnight until his case is transferred to the appropriate service.” And somehow they end up coming home without actually seeing any sort of specialists (resident or attending) that I can speak with other than a fly-by consult that is relayed to me by the intern who still doesn’t seem to get what is going on.
 
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Minners if I were you I would be asking to speak with the interns' attending on ECC (whoever is overseeing the case while it's on ECC) or at least a resident in the appropriate field. I personally err on the side of overcommunicating with DVM clients when they are actually willing to listen to me. I also always offer for them to speak with my attending if they'd like or if they have questions I haven't answered, even though I'm a resident. Most don't need that but I feel like we should be treating your pets even better, not only for professional courtesy sort of reasons - even if you are thinking from a pure financial standpoint keeping the referring vets happy is like, #1 for a specialty practice of any sort.
 
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I hate thinking about my own cat, so when I go to anywhere... GP or specialist I'm basically super hands off. "Here's my cat, these be her symptoms, this be what has been done thus far, please to tell me what's next and exactly what I should do."

"Oh and she's a grumpy dingus so knock her on her butt with drugs as needed."
 
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Yeah, I am in the "here's my dog, here's my credit card, do whatever, he has insurance" camp too. I'm a worrier and I tend to do a lot of reading about the issues he has, but I always defer to the specialist because I'm not always rational with him.

I will say that I occasionally feel like I get the short end of the stick in some appointments, but overall I've had more positive experiences as a DVM seeking specialty care than negative. I usually take him to a local specialty hospital (with no interns/residents) more than the vet school...I feel like I get treated more like a 'regular client' at the private hospitals and the discount was better too. He/talking to me still seems to be a lower priority than some other patients, but I don't really mind waiting to talk to the specialist after everyone else as long as he gets good care.

When I took him in to the vet school for procedures as a resident there, they sometimes expected me to do things that I feel I shouldn't have had to as an owner paying for the specialty care. For an example, he had an eyelid mass removed by ophtho and the student brought him back to me before he could even hold his head up...like extubated but certainly couldn't walk yet. She just expected me to recover him on my own in the clin path office which was not really close to ANY emergency drugs or non-pathology or radiology clinicians. He finished waking up just fine, but I felt like he should have stayed in recovery or at least a treatment area until he was more alert...I am capable of sitting with him and qualified to do that, yes, but I was supposed to be working, not recovering my own dog for a half hour.
 
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Petty rant:

It's so hard to get 1st and 2nd years to sign up for things. Like, if you want this event to happen, you have to put in some work here. When all the third years enter clinics in March, half our clubs are going to straight up die cause there will be no one to run them.
 
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batsenecal said:
Petty rant:

It's so hard to get 1st and 2nd years to sign up for things. Like, if you want this event to happen, you have to put in some work here. When all the third years enter clinics in March, half our clubs are going to straight up die cause there will be no one to run them.
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I sympathize. I just heard that my favorite club while I was in school died. :sorry: I learned so much with that group, and now it's not happening anymore.
 
genny said:
I sympathize. I just heard that my favorite club while I was in school died. :sorry: I learned so much with that group, and now it's not happening anymore.
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I'm pretty actively involved in a lot of areas. It's been pulling teeth to get OTS members to sign up for positions for the 5k we host (and I'm the chair for). Its the only mandatory thing we have. Like, people last year didn't even show up for free food, drinks, movies, etc.
 
batsenecal said:
Petty rant:

It's so hard to get 1st and 2nd years to sign up for things. Like, if you want this event to happen, you have to put in some work here. When all the third years enter clinics in March, half our clubs are going to straight up die cause there will be no one to run them.
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Felt this issue so hard last year
 
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batsenecal said:
Petty rant:

It's so hard to get 1st and 2nd years to sign up for things. Like, if you want this event to happen, you have to put in some work here. When all the third years enter clinics in March, half our clubs are going to straight up die cause there will be no one to run them.
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You may end up pleasantly surprised. Last year there was almost zero participation in club stuff (even things like highly coveted wet labs) and I was convinced that every club was going to die a fast death this year.

Turns out they maybe just like to be in charge of things vs mere participants :laugh:

(Sadly, the same is not true on the student job front...some jobs are going to be hurting when my class hits clinics.)
 
JaynaAli said:
the student brought him back to me before he could even hold his head up...like extubated but certainly couldn't walk yet. She just expected me to recover him on my own in the clin path office which was not really close to ANY emergency drugs or non-pathology or radiology clinicians.
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:eek:

One can only hope that the student thought you might want him back asap and was trying to be nice...but what the heck?

Who evaluated that plan and landed on "yeah sure, sounds good, residents aren't all that busy during the day"?
 
PippyPony said:
You may end up pleasantly surprised. Last year there was almost zero participation in club stuff (even things like highly coveted wet labs) and I was convinced that every club was going to die a fast death this year.

Turns out they maybe just like to be in charge of things vs mere participants
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We're having both as a problem. :( The last two years, it's taken multiple emails and such for multiple groups, including our SAVMA, to fill committees and such. Many clubs have over half their exec board as 3rd years or just empty cause 2nd years didn't step up to till in. The new first years are vaguely stepping up. But not on a decent enough level to maintain some of these clubs.
 
batsenecal said:
We're having both as a problem. :( The last two years, it's taken multiple emails and such for multiple groups, including our SAVMA, to fill committees and such. Many clubs have over half their exec board as 3rd years or just empty cause 2nd years didn't step up to fill in. The new first years are vaguely stepping up. But not on a decent enough level to maintain some of these clubs.
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Well that's just silly of them, what else will they put on their CVs to make them seem fun and enthusiastic?

(Sorry it's making extra headaches for you as a result though :( )
 
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batsenecal said:
We're having both as a problem. :( The last two years, it's taken multiple emails and such for multiple groups, including our SAVMA, to fill committees and such. Many clubs have over half their exec board as 3rd years or just empty cause 2nd years didn't step up to till in. The new first years are vaguely stepping up. But not on a decent enough level to maintain some of these clubs.
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I'm pretty sure our open house event has been dramatically diminished due to under participation. I don't know much about individual clubs, since I was kind of a loaner, but like all of the food animal clubs were just like the same 5 people scrambled into different positions. You're not alone bats.

At least our house system seems to be getting better participation this year. Only took 3 years to iron out some bugs I guess.
 
batsenecal said:
Petty rant:

It's so hard to get 1st and 2nd years to sign up for things. Like, if you want this event to happen, you have to put in some work here. When all the third years enter clinics in March, half our clubs are going to straight up die cause there will be no one to run them.
Click to expand...

I can relate to this in all the ways and it’s very frustrating.
 
batsenecal said:
Petty rant:

It's so hard to get 1st and 2nd years to sign up for things. Like, if you want this event to happen, you have to put in some work here. When all the third years enter clinics in March, half our clubs are going to straight up die cause there will be no one to run them.
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yup yup same here. there were two different clubs this year where if they didn’t get me to fill one of the Officer team, they were going to be shut down.
batsenecal said:
I'm pretty actively involved in a lot of areas. It's been pulling teeth to get OTS members to sign up for positions for the 5k we host (and I'm the chair for). Its the only mandatory thing we have. Like, people last year didn't even show up for free food, drinks, movies, etc.
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ugh. We have like 30-40 people on the AY members list but it’s impossible to get people to show up for anything. So I feel that in my coreeee.
 
genny said:
I sympathize. I just heard that my favorite club while I was in school died. :sorry: I learned so much with that group, and now it's not happening anymore.
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If this is the group that I’m thinking of (FCA?), I was really sad to hear about it, too. I actually had just started on the exec team for the semester right before my dismissal happened... I enjoyed that experience and learned a lot from the short time I was with them.
 
Elkhart said:
If this is the group that I’m thinking of (FCA?), I was really sad to hear about it, too. I actually had just started on the exec team for the semester right before my dismissal happened... I enjoyed that experience and learned a lot from the short time I was with them.
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I thought they kinda combined with feline club?
 
Elkhart said:
Rave: came across a job listing for an amazing company with an amazing salary, actually having something to do with my degree (organ donation stuff), that I am more than qualified for and am a mere two seconds away from applying to

Rant: I just got my raise at my current job, so I'd feel guilty about jumping ship if I got hired at this new job... but I'm also really starting to burn out from all of the overtime and am growing bored with what I'm doing and I'm still not being paid enough and... aaaah
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So, to follow up on this...

- Applied to the job.

- Received an email from HR within an hour stating that they thought my résumé was very impressive and that they wanted to do a preliminary phone interview. They asked me for a time and date. I responded with that information and thanked them for their time. Never got any sort of confirmation that they were going to call me at that time and date, but just shrugged and figured that they saw it and planned on it.

- That day passes by with no call or other communications of any kind... and the next day... and the next day. I emailed them back asking if they were still wanting to speak with me. They said yes to rescheduling, so I gave them another date and time. They say that that will work and ask for the best number at which to contact me, which I give them. Didn’t get any confirmation from them, yet again.

- They were supposed to call earlier this morning. They didn’t. I called about three hours ago and left a message. Still no answer.

I’m honestly approaching the point where I don’t care to proceed with the job opportunity. I appreciate that they’re a non-profit and they likely are busy and don’t have much staff on board, but is it that difficult to just answer emails and acknowledge that, yes, the date and time for correspondence is set?
 
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Elkhart said:
Oh, did they? It’s been about two years since last I stepped foot on that campus, so it’s quite possible that that’s happened in the meantime.
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That’s what I thought. They had the spay/neuter clinic in fall and then they were still planning on having it in spring but couldn’t get enough people to volunteer
 
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Barkley13 said:
That’s what I thought. They had the spay/neuter clinic in fall and then they were still planning on having it in spring but couldn’t get enough people to volunteer
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But are they still doing ferals? Or just low cost spay and neuter?

They used to do 5 clinics a year while I was there, with a huge one in the fall and smaller ones for the rest of the year. There was definitely a need, as the waiting list was always miles long.
 
Barkley13 said:
That’s what I thought. They had the spay/neuter clinic in fall and then they were still planning on having it in spring but couldn’t get enough people to volunteer
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Whaaaat? SN clinics is like the one thing vet students like to vulture around for as it’s an opportunity to cut (and even the mundane shifts get filled because those are the hoops you need to jump through to get to cut). Where’s the motivation?
 
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Minnerbelle said:
Whaaaat? SN clinics is like the one thing vet students like to vulture around for as it’s an opportunity to cut (and even the mundane shifts get filled because those are the hoops you need to jump through to get to cut). Where’s the motivation?
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We have Operation Catnip here, which is the feral cat TNR program that students definitely vulture around (myself included).

we spay/ neuter & rabies & FRVCP vaccinate between 120-200 cats every month during the school year!
 
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Minnerbelle said:
Whaaaat? SN clinics is like the one thing vet students like to vulture around for as it’s an opportunity to cut (and even the mundane shifts get filled because those are the hoops you need to jump through to get to cut). Where’s the motivation?
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man some of my best weekends during 2nd and 3rd year were going to the feral cat clinics and snippin balls
 
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Trilt said:
I basically had to knock people out of my way for my spay neuter clinics...
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cdoconn said:
We have Operation Catnip here, which is the feral cat TNR program that students definitely vulture around (myself included).
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nyanko said:
man some of my best weekends during 2nd and 3rd year were going to the feral cat clinics and snippin balls
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Right? What is wrong with kids these days!
 
I got to neuter like 300 piglets in a few hours on my last rotation. I don't think I'm going to have an urge to surge for a long while.
 
Does anyone else get to the point where you're ALMOST DONE with something really important, and then you just . . . don't want to finish? I have a thesis meeting tomorrow and I need to finish (and practice) my presentation, and it's 80% there, but I just don't wanna. I don't understand where my motivation goes to hide.
 
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PrincessButterCup said:
Does anyone else get to the point where you're ALMOST DONE with something really important, and then you just . . . don't want to finish? I have a thesis meeting tomorrow and I need to finish (and practice) my presentation, and it's 80% there, but I just don't wanna. I don't understand where my motivation goes to hide.
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I finished. I think. Have not practiced but that's how I roll, apparently.

Hopefully my boss doesn't hate it because I sent it to her all of 12 hours before go time, and she has to sleep and teach a class in there somewhere. No big deal. :rolleyes: :cool:
 
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