WildZoo's WWild ZZoo Part 2 - Game Thread

[Lawpy]

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He's posting a fair amount but a lot of it is throwing sus like a monkey throwing turds.

Also can you be more specific here?

 

[Lawpy]

This i can sheep

vote lawpy

Walk me through your thought process.

 

[Lawpy]

Regardless, considering the track record, ethos isn't a valid approach to sorting you.

Can you clarify what you mean by ethos here?

Sevens, did you clarify what you meant by ethos here?

 

[genny]

What I don’t understand is why is there an expectation of AM to get a solid grasp of me in D1

I think it's enough to keep you in the POE. If she had said strong village, wouldn't you expect that to be clearing, given her history of reading you?

 

[Lawpy]

I think it's enough to keep you in the POE. If she had said strong village, wouldn't you expect that to be clearing, given her history of reading you?

It’s not an either/or, and HZD has shown not to be clearing unfortunately because people were willing to ignore AM’s read to misyeet me. A neutral read should be treated just that, neutral. A wolf read is what’s condemning and Okami is a direct proof of that.

 

[kaydubs]

Day 2: The Ants Just Wanna Have FUN Vote Tally

True (1) - Santy
Lawpy (2) - Khepri, Clem

3/10

Vote closes at 10pm EDT TOMORROW (~33.25 hours)

 

[Lawpy]

Day 1: Life Finds A Way Vote Tally

Khepri ()
Zenges (4) - genny, Santy, Clem, mkg
Santy (1) - True
mkg ()
fluff (2) - Khepri, AM
Clem (2) - Zenges, PSV
Nate (1) - Lawpy

10/12

Missing: @NateTheLesser@justafluff

Vote closes at 10pm EDT TODAY (~9.5 hours)

This was the tally with Zenges wagon lasting for at least half of D1

Day 1: Life Finds A Way Vote Tally

Khepri ()
Zenges (2) - Santy, Clem
Santy (1) - True
mkg ()
fluff (3) - Khepri, AM, Nate
Clem (2) - Zenges, PSV
Nate (1) - Lawpy

9/12

Missing: @justafluff @genny @mkg323

Vote closes at 10pm EDT TODAY (~7.5 hours)

Shift to fluffy 2 hours later.

genny’s reasons for moving away from Zenges was because the anger post look villagey

MKG’s reasons are less clear other than mentioning about feeling good about Zenges

Santy did move away from Zenges later on but with a strategic purpose

 

[Lawpy]

Nanooks rationale is apparently a willingness to sheep anyone that isn’t in his TRs

 

[Clem J]

Walk me through your thought process.

You're in my poe and seven asked to be sheeped

 

[Clem J]

Nanooks rationale is apparently a willingness to sheep anyone that isn’t in his TRs

Yep, sheep my TRs on my poe

 

[potentialsheltervet]

I think Lawpy is village and I'll die on that hill.

 

[Lawpy]

You're in my poe and seven asked to be sheeped

Where did sevens ask to be sheeped?

 

[Khepri]

I reassessed after taking into account of Santy’s comments because Santy raised an important point about testing the strength of TR that I didn’t realize. So i’m not worried about #2 now

I will tell you, testing the strength of his town read wasn't on my mind. So given that, why does it rub you the wrong way?

His insights are based on an expectation that AM would have a strong grasp of me in D1 and that my solving attempts are basically randomly throwing sus to see what sticks. Already discussed the problems with the former, and the latter is what I argued was unsubstantiated. My takes were nuanced and I explained my thought process at length so it’s not like it’s random or unjustified.

That's not it. I feel like you've been asking a lot of questions and pointing things out but it comes off as information instead of analysis. I'm not sure I see you developing a push from your inquiries.

Sevens, did you clarify what you meant by ethos here?

Credibility. Specifically credibility due to familiarity in this instance. Santy was arguing that SDN folks are familiar with Zenge and thus if they are town reading them we should trust that. However, I am saying that because SDN folks do not actually have a track record of reading Zenge correctly, their familiarity is irrelevant.

 

[Khepri]

I think Lawpy is village and I'll die on that hill.

Spoiler

 

[Truenamer]

Quick references from Bowling

My tone was pretty sharp when questioned by puppy here

Additionally quick notes from D2:




Yes AM mentioned upper neutrals but it’s still a neutral read in D2.

My point is expecting AM to have a solid grasp of me in D1 is unrealistic, and viewing a neutral read on me as indicative of my being sketchy is unjustified. As you can see, it’s a gradual process but when AM’s right, she’s right. You can see on the reverse side of the situation in Okami when AM started off as neutral and decreased to slightly wolfy.

I agree that the sudden sharpness when being directly questioned is something I expect from Lawpy. One of the first jokes Stoat and I had about SDNers is that Lawpy has two modes: lil lawplawp and Doctor Lawpy. I've actually only personally seen Doctor Lawpy when he's village, but obviously I haven't been in many games with him.

 

[Truenamer]

Vote Spreadsheet​

For your wagonomics pleasure. I'll probably just keep editing this post to update it (as long as I'm alive), so bookmark it for later.
- All the day's votes are listed in chronological order, and on the right side is a running vote count that shows what the vote count was after each vote.

Day 1 Votes

All Votes By Player

EOD Wagons

Noting the coordination between Santy and Khepri. Remind me, how much history together do they have?

 

[Truenamer]

Nanook's votes and not sheeping me at EoD are a pretty bad look.

Because he townread me and was sheeping all of Santy votes but didn't sheep me when it came down to it. The vote on Nate is just not good.

Feels odd to say that someone not following you on any given vote is a bad look. He doesn't know your affiliation, even if he's townreading you. And how do you know the vote on Nate was a bad one?

 

[Lawpy]

I will tell you, testing the strength of his town read wasn't on my mind. So given that, why does it rub you the wrong way?

Because the insistence on trying to get someone to vote a sussed player whom they are TRing was looking irrational and wasn’t making sense to me. Coupled with “that’s not what I asked” was giving me reservations because of the underlying dismissiveness that I felt.

That's not it. I feel like you've been asking a lot of questions and pointing things out but it comes off as information instead of analysis. I'm not sure I see you developing a push from your inquiries.

The analysis was clear early on especially pg 2-3 when I pointed out about Nanooks sheeping being pingy for me because it was looking like an attempt to casually follow Santy’s reasonings without independent thought. I switched from MKG to Nates over concerns that Nates might be laying low and outlined my thought process late D1 when Santy asked me who i’d be voting for if not Nates. And as you can see in the above linked example of Bowling, I asked questions there and got slammed for asking for information like you’re outlining here. My questions are relevant from an analytical perspective, it just didn’t look readily clear because I’ve been trying to be conservative in my posts out of respect to players who prefer a low post volume environment and writing wall posts on my phone can be challenging and risk being glossed over.

Credibility. Specifically credibility due to familiarity in this instance. Santy was arguing that SDN folks are familiar with Zenge and thus if they are town reading them we should trust that. However, I am saying that because SDN folks do not actually have a track record of reading Zenge correctly, their familiarity is irrelevant.

Ok I understand now

 

[Truenamer]

Has the choice of AM as the NK been discussed much?

Not sure how well the new folks know her reputation of being very difficult to misyeet/push. Might suggest that least one wolf is more familiar with her?

 

[Lawpy]

I don't recall True saying much about the Zenge wagon either, but I'd want to read again to check. Letting your only partner be a punching bag all day doesn't seem like a great strategy.

Looking back, it seemed like the Zenges wagon started losing traction at least 10 hours before D1 close.

Also regarding the bold, see below:

I like this reaction from Zenge more than I like the votes on him.

Edit: followup posts:

Also @Truenamer are there any particular Zenges voters that concern you?

Just don't love that he's got three votes on him before everyone's even entered the thread. Not even necessarily any wolves on him, just don't like it.

EDIT- Four votes, now. Zenge apparently wore his wolf-scented cologne.

 

[Truenamer]

Looking back, it seemed like the Zenges wagon started losing traction at least 10 hours before D1 close.

Also regarding the bold, see below:

Edit: followup posts:

Yeah, I think that's all I said about the initial Zenge-wagon. Still curious about how that formed.

Might just be that I'm used to the more wagon-shy SDN meta.

 

[Lawpy]

I'm not going to stake my honor on Zenge being a villager (especially not after the AM debacle last game) but I do think I can read him better than I can read her, and he feels good today.

Wait, what makes you think you can read him better than me? You literally misyeeted him last time you played together.

Because his misyeet felt wrong and I doubted myself the entire time.

Meanwhile last game I was absolutely, 100% fooled by you.

You never moved though. If you had moved before EOD, I'd accept this argument.

AM, people can feel bad about votes and not move them.

Yeah, when they misread people. Now are you caught up?

Ok I read this exchange and I’m still not seeing how this shows Truey can read Zenges better than AM if in both cases he misread them both.

Votes are effectively reflective of reads because if you have doubts about who you’re voting is scum, it doesn’t make sense to park your vote there and let the yeet proceed.

It makes more sense if say Truey correctly read village!Zenges as in Game A and didn’t vote there (or better yet defended him) but incorrectly miscleared wolf!AM in Game B and defended her strongly. Then in this case, the argument that Truey can read Zenges better than AM would hold

But misyeeting village!Zenges and misclearing wolf!AM are just comparable instances of misreading imo

 

[Lawpy]

Yeet nate

The true wagon is intriguing, but I’m not sure if I’m comfy hoping on it when it’s come up so late in the cycle. I don’t remember if he was a wolf in the CYO or maybe the anniversary game but like I do remember him being a wolf and I’m not sure if this is the same tbh

Explain the Nates vote pls. Because this vote and explanation looked like a counter to the Truey wagon

 

[Lawpy]

Day 1: Life Finds A Way Vote Tally

Khepri (2) - Zenges, genny
Zenges ()
Santy (1) - True
mkg ()
fluff (2) - AM, Nate
Clem ()
Nate (4) - Lawpy, fluff, PSV, Clem
Truey (2) - Khepri, Santy

11/12
Winning: @NateTheLesser
Missing: @mkg323

Vote closes at 10pm EDT TODAY (~15 minutes)

Also fluffy and Sevens were also alternatives to Truey and Nates at that time

 

[Truenamer]

Ok I read this exchange and I’m still not seeing how this shows Truey can read Zenges better than AM if in both cases he misread them both.

Votes are effectively reflective of reads because if you have doubts about who you’re voting is scum, it doesn’t make sense to park your vote there and let the yeet proceed.

It makes more sense if say Truey correctly read village!Zenges as in Game A and didn’t vote there (or better yet defended him) but incorrectly miscleared wolf!AM in Game B and defended her strongly. Then in this case, the argument that Truey can read Zenges better than AM would hold

But misyeeting village!Zenges and misclearing wolf!AM are just comparable instances of misreading imo

If y'all genuinely don't understand the difference between "I don't know a better place to vote and you've been a little odd, so I'll vote here despite on-thread reservations" and "yes wolf-queen AM, lead village to victory" I don't know how to explain it.

Reads are not binary.

 

[Lawpy]

If y'all genuinely don't understand the difference between "I don't know a better place to vote and you've been a little odd, so I'll vote here despite on-thread reservations" and "yes wolf-queen AM, lead village to victory" I don't know how to explain it.

Reads are not binary.

But you can’t really claim the superiority of one over the other. They are different and context-dependent

 

[Truenamer]

But you can’t really claim the superiority of one over the other. They are different and context-dependent

My original statement was just about who I feel like I have an easier time reading. I obviously don't have robust statistical evidence to back up my self-evaluation, since I've played less than ten games with either of them, and this is my first year playing.

 

[Lawpy]

I don't think Genny and True are unpaired even though Genny called out True day 1.

Sevens could you expand on this?

 

[Lawpy]

That being said, I change my mind after thinking through Santy's case some more and the response to my reads.

I’d like to to explain, in your own words, what Santy’s case is. I’ll wait.

@Khepri I’m still waiting for you to answer this. Especially now that Santy is no longer voting for me, and voting you.

Did @Khepri expand on this? I’ve been reading through the thread and didn’t find an explanation

 

[Lawpy]

I'm not gonna make up reads i don't have lol

What is your thought process involved in TRing someone? Because your TRs are mostly left unexplained except a bit about genny that looked a bit superficial

 

[Lawpy]

@Clem J talk to me about genny?

I liked her opening and I think her play is pretty similar to last game, at least on a surface level/top layer view

Like this is a superficial read, even by Nanooks’s own acknowledgment

 

[Clem J]

What is your thought process involved in TRing someone? Because your TRs are mostly left unexplained except a bit about genny that looked a bit superficial

Depends player to player, mostly just "do they seem townie?"

 

[potentialsheltervet]

I think it's pretty telling that, for the most part, the people pushing Lawpy are MU/non-SDNers.
His play style is different to most others in my opinion and tends to be a lot more reliant on asking questions or dropping comments than providing much... I don't want to say substance, but... He's been called out in previous games for just quoting things and saying like "engaged" or "noting this" without drawing deeper conclusions. Every game I've played with him, he's been village.
I'm just not seeing that any of what's been mentioned is AI *for Lawpy*. I don't think we're likely to find a wolf there.

 

[Santygrass]

I think it's pretty telling that, for the most part, the people pushing Lawpy are MU/non-SDNers.
His play style is different to most others in my opinion and tends to be a lot more reliant on asking questions or dropping comments than providing much... I don't want to say substance, but... He's been called out in previous games for just quoting things and saying like "engaged" or "noting this" without drawing deeper conclusions. Every game I've played with him, he's been village.
I'm just not seeing that any of what's been mentioned is AI *for Lawpy*. I don't think we're likely to find a wolf there.

Thing to note. The one who started pushing for Lawpy is Zenge fmpov

 

[Santygrass]

I forgot to post this when I entered. Have some things I want to ask but I'll be making foos and maybe watch anime. But posted that last post without thinking smh. Its hard to have a reserved playstyle and not just brainspew every post

 

[Zenge142]

I think Lawpy is village and I'll die on that hill.

I think it's pretty telling that, for the most part, the people pushing Lawpy are MU/non-SDNers.
His play style is different to most others in my opinion and tends to be a lot more reliant on asking questions or dropping comments than providing much... I don't want to say substance, but... He's been called out in previous games for just quoting things and saying like "engaged" or "noting this" without drawing deeper conclusions. Every game I've played with him, he's been village.
I'm just not seeing that any of what's been mentioned is AI *for Lawpy*. I don't think we're likely to find a wolf there.

How many games have you played with Lawpy? He’s a big presence but you haven’t played that many games together. Enough to count on one hand, certainly.

 

[Zenge142]

Thing to note. The one who started pushing for Lawpy is Zenge fmpov

Noted.

 

[Zenge142]

Yeet Lawpy

 

[potentialsheltervet]

How many games have you played with Lawpy? He’s a big presence but you haven’t played that many games together. Enough to count on one hand, certainly.

You're right, it hasn't been that many. I think BoWWling, LiterWWary, CYO III? And then modded Okami but that doesn't really count. So I haven't really seen Wolf!Lawpy, I'll admit that.

 

[potentialsheltervet]

@genny @Truenamer @mkg323 Thoughts on Lawpy? I know Zenge thinks he's a wolf, but I'm not seeing what he's seeing and I'm wondering if it's a skill issue on my part.

 

[Zenge142]

You're right, it hasn't been that many. I think BoWWling, LiterWWary, CYO III? And then modded Okami but that doesn't really count. So I haven't really seen Wolf!Lawpy, I'll admit that.

You’ve barely seen village Lawpy. Feels like you’re using “meta” feels to village lean a player you’ve barely played with

 

[Truenamer]

@genny @Truenamer @mkg323 Thoughts on Lawpy? I know Zenge thinks he's a wolf, but I'm not seeing what he's seeing and I'm wondering if it's a skill issue on my part.

Give me a few minutes to ISO him. I like Lawpy and I think his contributions have been fine this game, but I don't feel comfortable giving a clear read on him.

 

[Truenamer]

You’ve barely seen village Lawpy. Feels like you’re using “meta” feels to village lean a player you’ve barely played with

Yeah. It's easy to do this when you talk to someone frequently out of game and they're fun to be around.

 

[WildZoo]

Day 2: The Ants Just Wanna Have FUN Vote Tally

True (1) - Santy
Lawpy (3) - Khepri, Clem, Zenge

4/10

Vote closes at 10pm EDT TOMORROW (~27 hours)

 

[potentialsheltervet]

You’ve barely seen village Lawpy. Feels like you’re using “meta” feels to village lean a player you’ve barely played with

Sometimes my feels are accurate.

 

[potentialsheltervet]

Truenamer, liking a post from Zenge about Lawpy:

Truenamer, liking a post from me about Lawpy:

 

[Zenge142]

You're right, it hasn't been that many. I think BoWWling, LiterWWary, CYO III? And then modded Okami but that doesn't really count. So I haven't really seen Wolf!Lawpy, I'll admit that.

Wait Bowling you were a wolf, so you weren’t trying to solve his slot. He Died N1 in CYO III.

LiterWWary is the only real game you’ve played with him.

 

[Zenge142]

Did not care for Lawpy’s response to Santy here

Lawpy, PSV . If not Nate, where would you go today?

I’m thinking fluffy. I’m not exactly sure why the Sevens wagon picked up speed but I actually thought Sevens made a good point on fluffy that I mentioned earlier, and I disagree with the notion that fluffy’s a low hanging fruit.

I’m also wary of Nanooks but I’ve been looking at the games you linked that’s making me think a bit more carefully. I didn’t like that Nanooks was essentially being dodgy in his earlier posts when asked questions and then giving out town reads with little explanation. But Nanooks’s later post about the Sevens read made me think a bit more. I know in SF3, Nanooks was pretty much openly agreeing with Kobas very early D1 and was town there.

I would also be wary of village reading Zenges based on that anger post alone. Zenges was known to be genuinely angry as wolf before (see Bioshock from 2021 when he was genuinely mad over the right wolf, wrong reason). That said, I think Zenges is putting up a good effort in solving so I generally feel ok about him.

I’m a little unclear why MKG suggested to yeet AM and she didn’t explain further so that was weird to me.

 

[Zenge142]

Did not care for Lawpy’s response to Santy here

Was obviously wrong on Fluff. Wrong on me. Clem feels like misyeet bait, especially if Lawpy does flip wolf

 

[potentialsheltervet]

LiterWWary is the only real game you’ve played with him.

...okay I was a wolf there too