2011-2012 Johns Hopkins Application Thread

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To All Accepted Students (ie... those who now have some leverage), I respectfully ask that you consider reading about the use of live animals for medical student training at JHU (discontinued at almost every other allopathic school in the country).

If you feel comfortable doing so, please ask, as applicants considering matriculating, JHU to end the use of live animals in medical student training (pre-written email here).

To those of you who might take umbrage at a request of this nature, please note that, today, offering this cruel and unnecessary exercise. Johns Hopkins is the only top-20 ranked U.S. medical school to use live animals in its medical student curriculum. The school uses pigs in its third-year surgery rotation lab multiple times throughout the school year. Pigs are highly intelligent, social animals who have been shown to be more intelligent than dogs. Animal behavior experts agree, and scientific evidence suggests, that pigs are very smart and sensitive animals.

In the past, I know JHU students have made efforts to end this practice- I am not trying to flame JHU. I'm posting this to apply further pressure on the powers that be to change this archaic practice.

oh- and kudos on your acceptance!

Members don't see this ad.
 
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To All Accepted Students (ie... those who now have some leverage), I respectfully ask that you consider reading about the use of live animals for medical student training at JHU (discontinued at almost every other allopathic school in the country).

If you feel comfortable doing so, please ask, as applicants considering matriculating, JHU to end the use of live animals in medical student training (pre-written email here).

To those of you who might take umbrage at a request of this nature, please note that, today, offering this cruel and unnecessary exercise. Johns Hopkins is the only top-20 ranked U.S. medical school to use live animals in its medical student curriculum. The school uses pigs in its third-year surgery rotation lab multiple times throughout the school year. Pigs are highly intelligent, social animals who have been shown to be more intelligent than dogs. Animal behavior experts agree, and scientific evidence suggests, that pigs are very smart and sensitive animals.

In the past, I know JHU students have made efforts to end this practice- I am not trying to flame JHU. I'm posting this to apply further pressure on the powers that be to change this archaic practice.

oh- and kudos on your acceptance!

link didn't work on my phone.

I like hopkins a bit more now.
 
To All Accepted Students (ie... those who now have some leverage), I respectfully ask that you consider reading about the use of live animals for medical student training at JHU (discontinued at almost every other allopathic school in the country).

If you feel comfortable doing so, please ask, as applicants considering matriculating, JHU to end the use of live animals in medical student training (pre-written email here).

To those of you who might take umbrage at a request of this nature, please note that, today, offering this cruel and unnecessary exercise. Johns Hopkins is the only top-20 ranked U.S. medical school to use live animals in its medical student curriculum. The school uses pigs in its third-year surgery rotation lab multiple times throughout the school year. Pigs are highly intelligent, social animals who have been shown to be more intelligent than dogs. Animal behavior experts agree, and scientific evidence suggests, that pigs are very smart and sensitive animals.

In the past, I know JHU students have made efforts to end this practice- I am not trying to flame JHU. I'm posting this to apply further pressure on the powers that be to change this archaic practice.

oh- and kudos on your acceptance!
Why not? I think it's an embarrassment to the institution. Actually, a decent portion of one of my interviews was spent talking about this issue. I still got in, so at least they take criticism well :D
 
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To All Accepted Students (ie... those who now have some leverage), I respectfully ask that you consider reading about the use of live animals for medical student training at JHU (discontinued at almost every other allopathic school in the country).

If you feel comfortable doing so, please ask, as applicants considering matriculating, JHU to end the use of live animals in medical student training (pre-written email here).

To those of you who might take umbrage at a request of this nature, please note that, today, offering this cruel and unnecessary exercise. Johns Hopkins is the only top-20 ranked U.S. medical school to use live animals in its medical student curriculum. The school uses pigs in its third-year surgery rotation lab multiple times throughout the school year. Pigs are highly intelligent, social animals who have been shown to be more intelligent than dogs. Animal behavior experts agree, and scientific evidence suggests, that pigs are very smart and sensitive animals.

In the past, I know JHU students have made efforts to end this practice- I am not trying to flame JHU. I'm posting this to apply further pressure on the powers that be to change this archaic practice.

oh- and kudos on your acceptance!

Thanks for the link. I'd heard about this before but didn't really know what to make of it.

I guess I have no clue what the pros and cons of practicing on live pigs are, and it's worth considering that animals are used (and often killed) in many areas of medical research and education. So I don't know if it's an embarrassment to the institution, as nadaba said, but I can agree that if virtually every other school has adapted its practices to not use live animals, there's no reason JHU can't follow suit.
 
How does JHU reject pre-interview? Snail mail?
 
Thanks for the link. I'd heard about this before but didn't really know what to make of it.

I guess I have no clue what the pros and cons of practicing on live pigs are, and it's worth considering that animals are used (and often killed) in many areas of medical research and education. So I don't know if it's an embarrassment to the institution, as nadaba said, but I can agree that if virtually every other school has adapted its practices to not use live animals, there's no reason JHU can't follow suit.

Similar thought process here; we didn't tour the anatomy lab on my day, so I wasn't aware of this practice until now. From an ethical standpoint, I'm having trouble differentiating the use of animals in medical education from their use in research, or food, for that matter. I guess I'll think on it a bit.
 
Similar thought process here; we didn't tour the anatomy lab on my day, so I wasn't aware of this practice until now. From an ethical standpoint, I'm having trouble differentiating the use of animals in medical education from their use in research, or food, for that matter. I guess I'll think on it a bit.


Regarding medical research, I'd encourage you to read PCRM's take (physicians committee for responsible medicine - nationwide organization started at GWU 25 years ago) and its take on the animals' psychological and social lives here.

(and on the rest of its site)

www.pcrm.org
 
Similar thought process here; we didn't tour the anatomy lab on my day, so I wasn't aware of this practice until now. From an ethical standpoint, I'm having trouble differentiating the use of animals in medical education from their use in research, or food, for that matter. I guess I'll think on it a bit.

I guess I should add (I just remembered) that my gf at Harvard (College) has taken a lab course on vertebrate surgery (taught at the med school but intended for undergrads) that included non-survival surgery on pigs. So it's not nobody else doing it, but I still wonder why it's generally been eliminated as part of the medical student education.
 
I guess I should add (I just remembered) that my gf at Harvard (College) has taken a lab course on vertebrate surgery (taught at the med school but intended for undergrads) that included non-survival surgery on pigs. So it's not nobody else doing it, but I still wonder why it's generally been eliminated as part of the medical student education.

As you noted, that course was not affiliated with HMS.

Needless killing of animals.. I'm not sure how that could not be considered animal cruelty. The reality is that there are better, cheaper, and more humane methods for teaching surgery. Why would you keep it?
 
As you noted, that course was not affiliated with HMS.

Needless killing of animals.. I'm not sure how that could not be considered animal cruelty. The reality is that there are better, cheaper, and more humane methods for teaching surgery. Why would you keep it?

I have to note that the course was affiliated with HMS (taught by HMS faculty, at HMS), it just wasn't part of the medical student education.

I absolutely agree with your reasoning that if there are ethically-allowed, more humane methods to be used, they should be used. Like I said earlier, I also think that if most schools have adapted not to use live pigs, then they must have found and implemented such methods, and there's no reason JHU can't do likewise if it chooses.

But to play devil's advocate, two points: 1. I've learned some basic surgical techniques and, at least for me from a educational and ethical standpoint, it would've been a lot easier if I could have practiced on an animal instead of on live patients/models/random pieces of cloth/fruit/meat. It felt pretty scary, even under supervision, to be working on a live patient and not have confidence in my abilities.
2. As has been pointed out, we as a society currently kill animals for many other reasons beside surgery practice. Some of these reasons don't have humane alternatives, but many do, and food is surely one of them. If someone is to oppose JHU's (hopefully well-regulated) use of pigs in surgery practice on moral grounds, then they should also oppose eating pork on moral grounds (this coming from a pescatarian). This is not at all to criticize you personally (like I said, I agree with your logic), this is just to say that I don't think that use of animals in medical education is any more salient of an ethical issue than the use of animals in medical research, cosmetics, or food.
 
I have to note that the course was affiliated with HMS (taught by HMS faculty, at HMS), it just wasn't part of the medical student education.

I absolutely agree with your reasoning that if there are ethically-allowed, more humane methods to be used, they should be used. Like I said earlier, I also think that if most schools have adapted not to use live pigs, then they must have found and implemented such methods, and there's no reason JHU can't do likewise if it chooses.

But to play devil's advocate, two points: 1. I've learned some basic surgical techniques and, at least for me from a educational and ethical standpoint, it would've been a lot easier if I could have practiced on an animal instead of on live patients/models/random pieces of cloth/fruit/meat. It felt pretty scary, even under supervision, to be working on a live patient and not have confidence in my abilities.
2. As has been pointed out, we as a society currently kill animals for many other reasons beside surgery practice. Some of these reasons don't have humane alternatives, but many do, and food is surely one of them. If someone is to oppose JHU's (hopefully well-regulated) use of pigs in surgery practice on moral grounds, then they should also oppose eating pork on moral grounds (this coming from a pescatarian). This is not at all to criticize you personally (like I said, I agree with your logic), this is just to say that I don't think that use of animals in medical education is any more salient of an ethical issue than the use of animals in medical research, cosmetics, or food.

1. http://pcrm.org/research/edtraining/meded/literature-on-animal-laboratories
Also, look at the FAQ cited in my original post.

2. I couldn't agree more. It ISN'T any more salient of an ethical issue. IMHO, they're all pretty awful things to inflict on animals. I'd love to discuss this more, but PM if you can- I don't want to detract from my OP.

3. "food is surely one of them" I couldn't disagree more...

BOTTOM LINE: at least be informed, and email JHU if you can
 
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Does anyone have hopkins' match list 2011? I can't seem to find it on the forums.
 
As a Hopkins student who has done my surgical rotation and someone who has actually personally raised pigs and seen them slaughtered for food (while I was living abroad), here's my perspective on the use of pigs in the surgical rotation.

I wouldn't contest maowl's assertion that pigs are intelligent, social animals; I think it would be hard to have worked with pigs and not believe that. At the beginning of the surgical curriculum, each student is given the choice to participate or not to participate in the pig lab - a decision that can be reversed at any time, and truly without penalty. The surgical rotation administration has faced a lot of criticism for the use of pigs in the lab, especially through groups like PCRM, and they took great pains to emphasize that participation was entirely voluntary.

When it came time for me to choose, I weighed a couple of things in my mind in order to discern whether I believed that the practice was, as maowl writes, "cruel and unnecessary".

First, are there differences between animal testing and the use of animals in the surgical lab? I believe that there are. In what one would commonly consider animal testing, animals are subjected to an intervention, and then followed to see the effects of that intervention. In the pig surgery lab at Hopkins, the pigs are placed under general anesthesia by veterinary assistants, remain anesthetized for the duration of the procedure, and then euthanized at the end of the procedure without having been awakened. In animal testing, the animals live for some period of time after the intervention, subject to any pain or distress that that intervention may provoke. For me, this was a significant difference in determining whether or not the practice is "cruel".

What, then, would be the basis for believing that using pigs in surgery lab is "cruel?" Would it be the actual surgery that we as students performed? The surgeries are performed under general anesthesia. In my view, I couldn't ethically maintain that cutting a living being open under general anesthesia, performing a surgical procedure, and then closing the wound is, in and of itself, "cruel" - since that's what we do every day on the surgical rotation. Granted, the surgical procedures are medically indicated while I suppose that there's no "medical indication" for surgery from the pig's point of view, but I will return to that point below in the discussion of whether or not the lab is "unnecessary."

From my point of view, then, the actual operation was not "cruel," in the sense that it didn't produce undue distress for the pig while the operation was going on. The pigs are closely monitored to ensure that they are continually sedated. The next question then became: is the "cruelness" of the procedure inherent in the fact that the pigs die at the end of the procedure?

Here, my personal values came into play. I am not a vegetarian, although I certainly recognize that there are a host of personal, ethical, and environmental reasons for one to be so. I believe, however, that it would have been logically inconsistent for me to eat meat and refuse to participate in the pig lab on the basis that the death of the pigs was unethical. Take the eating of pork for food: in the United States alone, 1200-1300 pigs per hour are slaughtered for human consumption [1]. The slaughter process for food is certainly equally or less humane than the Hopkins lab: pigs are stunned (with electric shocks or carbon dioxide), then bled out before being processed. Any Google search will bring up a host of sites describing the problems with the process on factory farms. It's always a little curious to me that those advocating for pigs' rights would spend so much time focusing on a lab like Hopkins - where there are 3 labs per surgery rotation, each involving ~6-8 pigs, five times per year - as compared to the much larger volume of pigs slaughtered for food in much less humane conditions.

Yet, clearly, establishing that a process is more humane than the slaughter of pigs on factory farms is not a great argument for its ethical appeal. At this point, however, I had established for myself that the use of pigs at Hopkins was not any more cruel than the ideal procedure that I could imagine for food production, and I therefore wouldn't reject the process while still eating meat. This calculus clearly changes if one is a vegetarian, which I wholly respect.

Second, is the process "unnecessary?" Clearly, if your criterion is "can we do without it?" the answer must be "yes" - many other schools do not have pig labs for their surgery rotation. Yet perhaps a more relevant question would be "what is to be gained from the sacrifice of these pigs?" Again, I believe that food consumption is a relevant comparison: those of us who eat meat condone the death of animals on a massive scale for our personal consumption, clearly at no benefit for the animal. By analogy, my personal ethical framework allows for the death of an animal if a substantial benefit is produced for humans. Again, this is a different framework than that of a vegetarian.

So, what is there to be gained? On your surgical rotation, you're by and large a passive observer. Sure, you're allowed to close the surgical wound, retract, and even assist with various procedures when you're farther along in your training. Yet as those of you who want to be surgeons well know, that's not what keeps people in surgery. As medical students, we get no taste of the decision-making, planning, and leadership that runs through the lead surgeon's mind during a procedure.

As others have mentioned above, the pig lab is the best technical training that one could receive as a medical student during the curriculum. There is no substitute for the feel of the tension of thread between your fingers as you tie off a blood vessel, balancing the need to tie a solid knot against the risk of tearing the vein. There are simply things that we do in the pig lab that you as a medical student don't get to do - and for good reason - on your surgery rotation: from start to finish, you and your team members do a nephrectomy, a splenectomy, a bowel anastamosis, and a partial pneumonectomy (among other procedures). Once you've been in anatomy lab and in surgery, you recognize that there is no comparison between the two from a technical standpoint. While simulation has come a long way - and Hopkins certainly has its share of laparoscopic training opportunities (even a Da Vinci robot for training), open surgery has its own needs.

Yet the biggest impact on your training is mental & psychological. There are few other times in medical school where you and your classmates assume the primary role. Here, you take your turn as the lead surgeon or first assist, and it is a totally different experience from watching or assisting on the rest of the rotation. It is an entirely different sensation to plan the incision, decide whether it should be extended or not, and then enter the abdomen, your mind racing to integrate all of the anatomy you learned two years earlier as you decide which vessels to tie off first. You have to anticipate which instruments you'll need, coordinate with the others around the table to optimize your exposure, position the lights correctly. I am certainly not a surgeon; I'm going into a more medically-related specialty. Yet the pig lab was the best glimpse into what it's like intellectually to be a surgeon, and for that I felt that the lab was invaluable.

So for all that, I believe it's not an ethically clear-cut situation, although after careful consideration I feel that it was a real asset to my education here. I do get somewhat frustrated when organizations like PCRM assert that such a lab is categorically wrong, although I appreciate their objections. It's a difficult question that really gets to the heart of the difficulty of medical education: to what lengths are we willing to go to better the training of the next generation of physicians? I think that it's a more important question when applied to the ways that we as students interact with humans, but that's my point of view. In any case, it's a question that deserves thoughtful discussion.

Finally, I would point out that - for those of you for whom animal rights in medical research are an important issue - Hopkins is a leader in this field as well. The Center for Alternatives to Animal Testing (CAAT) at the School of Public Health is dedicated to the "3 Rs" of developing alternatives: replacement, reduction, and refinement of current methods. So if you're interested in actually solving the problem of furthering medical knowledge while reducing the impact on animals, rather than simply protesting, there's a place for you here as well.

So come to Hopkins - where we think deeply about important things and consider them with the carefulness that they deserve! It doesn't go on bumper stickers as well as "stop the pig lab," but I believe that the discussion makes me a better medical student and future physician.
 
As a Hopkins student who has done my surgical rotation and someone who has actually personally raised pigs and seen them slaughtered for food (while I was living abroad), here's my perspective on the use of pigs in the surgical rotation.

I wouldn't contest maowl's assertion that pigs are intelligent, social animals; I think it would be hard to have worked with pigs and not believe that. At the beginning of the surgical curriculum, each student is given the choice to participate or not to participate in the pig lab - a decision that can be reversed at any time, and truly without penalty. The surgical rotation administration has faced a lot of criticism for the use of pigs in the lab, especially through groups like PCRM, and they took great pains to emphasize that participation was entirely voluntary.

When it came time for me to choose, I weighed a couple of things in my mind in order to discern whether I believed that the practice was, as maowl writes, "cruel and unnecessary".

First, are there differences between animal testing and the use of animals in the surgical lab? I believe that there are. In what one would commonly consider animal testing, animals are subjected to an intervention, and then followed to see the effects of that intervention. In the pig surgery lab at Hopkins, the pigs are placed under general anesthesia by veterinary assistants, remain anesthetized for the duration of the procedure, and then euthanized at the end of the procedure without having been awakened. In animal testing, the animals live for some period of time after the intervention, subject to any pain or distress that that intervention may provoke. For me, this was a significant difference in determining whether or not the practice is "cruel".

What, then, would be the basis for believing that using pigs in surgery lab is "cruel?" Would it be the actual surgery that we as students performed? The surgeries are performed under general anesthesia. In my view, I couldn't ethically maintain that cutting a living being open under general anesthesia, performing a surgical procedure, and then closing the wound is, in and of itself, "cruel" - since that's what we do every day on the surgical rotation. Granted, the surgical procedures are medically indicated while I suppose that there's no "medical indication" for surgery from the pig's point of view, but I will return to that point below in the discussion of whether or not the lab is "unnecessary."

From my point of view, then, the actual operation was not "cruel," in the sense that it didn't produce undue distress for the pig while the operation was going on. The pigs are closely monitored to ensure that they are continually sedated. The next question then became: is the "cruelness" of the procedure inherent in the fact that the pigs die at the end of the procedure?

Here, my personal values came into play. I am not a vegetarian, although I certainly recognize that there are a host of personal, ethical, and environmental reasons for one to be so. I believe, however, that it would have been logically inconsistent for me to eat meat and refuse to participate in the pig lab on the basis that the death of the pigs was unethical. Take the eating of pork for food: in the United States alone, 1200-1300 pigs per hour are slaughtered for human consumption [1]. The slaughter process for food is certainly equally or less humane than the Hopkins lab: pigs are stunned (with electric shocks or carbon dioxide), then bled out before being processed. Any Google search will bring up a host of sites describing the problems with the process on factory farms. It's always a little curious to me that those advocating for pigs' rights would spend so much time focusing on a lab like Hopkins - where there are 3 labs per surgery rotation, each involving ~6-8 pigs, five times per year - as compared to the much larger volume of pigs slaughtered for food in much less humane conditions.

Yet, clearly, establishing that a process is more humane than the slaughter of pigs on factory farms is not a great argument for its ethical appeal. At this point, however, I had established for myself that the use of pigs at Hopkins was not any more cruel than the ideal procedure that I could imagine for food production, and I therefore wouldn't reject the process while still eating meat. This calculus clearly changes if one is a vegetarian, which I wholly respect.

Second, is the process "unnecessary?" Clearly, if your criterion is "can we do without it?" the answer must be "yes" - many other schools do not have pig labs for their surgery rotation. Yet perhaps a more relevant question would be "what is to be gained from the sacrifice of these pigs?" Again, I believe that food consumption is a relevant comparison: those of us who eat meat condone the death of animals on a massive scale for our personal consumption, clearly at no benefit for the animal. By analogy, my personal ethical framework allows for the death of an animal if a substantial benefit is produced for humans. Again, this is a different framework than that of a vegetarian.

So, what is there to be gained? On your surgical rotation, you're by and large a passive observer. Sure, you're allowed to close the surgical wound, retract, and even assist with various procedures when you're farther along in your training. Yet as those of you who want to be surgeons well know, that's not what keeps people in surgery. As medical students, we get no taste of the decision-making, planning, and leadership that runs through the lead surgeon's mind during a procedure.

As others have mentioned above, the pig lab is the best technical training that one could receive as a medical student during the curriculum. There is no substitute for the feel of the tension of thread between your fingers as you tie off a blood vessel, balancing the need to tie a solid knot against the risk of tearing the vein. There are simply things that we do in the pig lab that you as a medical student don't get to do - and for good reason - on your surgery rotation: from start to finish, you and your team members do a nephrectomy, a splenectomy, a bowel anastamosis, and a partial pneumonectomy (among other procedures). Once you've been in anatomy lab and in surgery, you recognize that there is no comparison between the two from a technical standpoint. While simulation has come a long way - and Hopkins certainly has its share of laparoscopic training opportunities (even a Da Vinci robot for training), open surgery has its own needs.

Yet the biggest impact on your training is mental & psychological. There are few other times in medical school where you and your classmates assume the primary role. Here, you take your turn as the lead surgeon or first assist, and it is a totally different experience from watching or assisting on the rest of the rotation. It is an entirely different sensation to plan the incision, decide whether it should be extended or not, and then enter the abdomen, your mind racing to integrate all of the anatomy you learned two years earlier as you decide which vessels to tie off first. You have to anticipate which instruments you'll need, coordinate with the others around the table to optimize your exposure, position the lights correctly. I am certainly not a surgeon; I'm going into a more medically-related specialty. Yet the pig lab was the best glimpse into what it's like intellectually to be a surgeon, and for that I felt that the lab was invaluable.

So for all that, I believe it's not an ethically clear-cut situation, although after careful consideration I feel that it was a real asset to my education here. I do get somewhat frustrated when organizations like PCRM assert that such a lab is categorically wrong, although I appreciate their objections. It's a difficult question that really gets to the heart of the difficulty of medical education: to what lengths are we willing to go to better the training of the next generation of physicians? I think that it's a more important question when applied to the ways that we as students interact with humans, but that's my point of view. In any case, it's a question that deserves thoughtful discussion.

Finally, I would point out that - for those of you for whom animal rights in medical research are an important issue - Hopkins is a leader in this field as well. The Center for Alternatives to Animal Testing (CAAT) at the School of Public Health is dedicated to the "3 Rs" of developing alternatives: replacement, reduction, and refinement of current methods. So if you're interested in actually solving the problem of furthering medical knowledge while reducing the impact on animals, rather than simply protesting, there's a place for you here as well.

So come to Hopkins - where we think deeply about important things and consider them with the carefulness that they deserve! It doesn't go on bumper stickers as well as "stop the pig lab," but I believe that the discussion makes me a better medical student and future physician.

:thumbup:
 
I'm still hoping for an interview invite from Hopkins...

But I wanted to chime in and say wow, jhusom25, that was very well written and very graceful.
 
Yeah, seconded.. thanks for that post, jhusom25. I'm very glad to see there's a good discussion going on about it on campus. That to me is a much better indication of the intellectual and ethical quality of the school community than, necessarily, whether or not pigs are used in surgical rotations.
 
JHUSOM25 said it best. It is very easy to be drawn into passionate diatribe when ideology is the only guiding light. For those of us who are bona fide students of philosophy and existential ethics, arguments such as those made by the OP certainly invite necessary moral speculation, but they ultimately detract from the sober reality of our position at the pinnacle of intelligent life (thus far).
I'll begin by saying that the only way I do not consider attending Hopkins is if it is later discovered that the pigs are actual humans, and that the euthanizing is done by firing squad...unlikely...so if your decision to attend Hopkins is swayed by the OP argument, then you may want to reconsider the practice of medicine entirely (if you are not convinced, pick up any Medical History text of repute and prepare for the 'moral' armageddon that follows - say it with me...'fruit of the poisonous tree!!!').
Vegetarian, pescatarian, vegan, cannibalism, etc etc...these are all subjective microcosmic ideologies not grounded in morality or the macrocosmic state of nature. They are however often used to supplant responsible moral discourse, and the vagaries of a natural state...so any moral saliency alluded to has no bearing on this argument as correctly pointed out by JHUSOM25.
Any opposition to the practices at Hopkins have to be done on grounds of their incongruence with the existential realities of the natural state, and not on ideologically infused didacticism that permeates the arguments made by the OP. Great fodder for philosophical discourse, but much less useful for the decision to attend or not attend a medical school. That's my $0.02...and oh, I love Hopkins Med.
 
JHUSOM25 said it best. It is very easy to be drawn into passionate diatribe when ideology is the only guiding light. For those of us who are bona fide students of philosophy and existential ethics, arguments such as those made by the OP certainly invite necessary moral speculation, but they ultimately detract from the sober reality of our position at the pinnacle of intelligent life (thus far).
I'll begin by saying that the only way I do not consider attending Hopkins is if it is later discovered that the pigs are actual humans, and that the euthanizing is done by firing squad...unlikely...so if your decision to attend Hopkins is swayed by the OP argument, then you may want to reconsider the practice of medicine entirely (if you are not convinced, pick up any Medical History text of repute and prepare for the 'moral' armageddon that follows - say it with me...'fruit of the poisonous tree!!!').
Vegetarian, pescatarian, vegan, cannibalism, etc etc...these are all subjective microcosmic ideologies not grounded in morality or the macrocosmic state of nature. They are however often used to supplant responsible moral discourse, and the vagaries of a natural state...so any moral saliency alluded to has no bearing on this argument as correctly pointed out by JHUSOM25.
Any opposition to the practices at Hopkins have to be done on grounds of their incongruence with the existential realities of the natural state, and not on ideologically infused didacticism that permeates the arguments made by the OP. Great fodder for philosophical discourse, but much less useful for the decision to attend or not attend a medical school. That's my $0.02...and oh, I love Hopkins Med.

You're right: JHUSOM25 said it best...

:laugh:
 
To everyone applying to Hopkins, I did not intend to draw this out further, and I'm sorry if this makes it more difficult to find the answers on questions such as decision turnaround. That said, I do feel compelled to respond:

JHUSOM25 said it best. It is very easy to be drawn into passionate diatribe when ideology is the only guiding light. For those of us who are bona fide students of philosophy and existential ethics, arguments such as those made by the OP certainly invite necessary moral speculation, but they ultimately detract from the sober reality of our position at the pinnacle of intelligent life (thus far).
I'll begin by saying that the only way I do not consider attending Hopkins is if it is later discovered that the pigs are actual humans, and that the euthanizing is done by firing squad...unlikely...so if your decision to attend Hopkins is swayed by the OP argument, then you may want to reconsider the practice of medicine entirely (if you are not convinced, pick up any Medical History text of repute and prepare for the 'moral' armageddon that follows - say it with me...'fruit of the poisonous tree!!!').
Vegetarian, pescatarian, vegan, cannibalism, etc etc...these are all subjective microcosmic ideologies not grounded in morality or the macrocosmic state of nature. They are however often used to supplant responsible moral discourse, and the vagaries of a natural state...so any moral saliency alluded to has no bearing on this argument as correctly pointed out by JHUSOM25.
Any opposition to the practices at Hopkins have to be done on grounds of their incongruence with the existential realities of the natural state, and not on ideologically infused didacticism that permeates the arguments made by the OP. Great fodder for philosophical discourse, but much less useful for the decision to attend or not attend a medical school. That's my $0.02...and oh, I love Hopkins Med.

I would like to point out that I DID NOT flame Hopkins. I DO NOT think that their archaic practices (while cruel) should sway anyone in this or her decision to attend. All of this has been an extended request to apply pressure to end a backward practice at an otherwise stellar institution.

The pretentiousness here is phenomenal (I guess I should know better on SDN). I would posit that you're the one infusing didacticism to detract from "responsible moral discourse."

If you don't care, fine. Medicine is unique as a career, imho, in that it combines an this intellectualism of which you speak with compassion. That you cannot extend compassion in this case to other salient beings is unfortunate.

[FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]"The human spirit is not dead. It lives on in secret.... It has come to believe that compassion, in which all ethics must take root, can only attain its full breadth and depth if it embraces all living creatures and does not limit itself to mankind." ~Albert Schweitzer, Novel Peace Prize address, "The Problem of Peace in the World Today"
.
 
As a Hopkins student who has done my surgical rotation and someone who has actually personally raised pigs and seen them slaughtered for food (while I was living abroad), here's my perspective on the use of pigs in the surgical rotation.

I wouldn't contest maowl's assertion that pigs are intelligent, social animals; I think it would be hard to have worked with pigs and not believe that. At the beginning of the surgical curriculum, each student is given the choice to participate or not to participate in the pig lab - a decision that can be reversed at any time, and truly without penalty. The surgical rotation administration has faced a lot of criticism for the use of pigs in the lab, especially through groups like PCRM, and they took great pains to emphasize that participation was entirely voluntary.

When it came time for me to choose, I weighed a couple of things in my mind in order to discern whether I believed that the practice was, as maowl writes, "cruel and unnecessary".

First, are there differences between animal testing and the use of animals in the surgical lab? I believe that there are. In what one would commonly consider animal testing, animals are subjected to an intervention, and then followed to see the effects of that intervention. In the pig surgery lab at Hopkins, the pigs are placed under general anesthesia by veterinary assistants, remain anesthetized for the duration of the procedure, and then euthanized at the end of the procedure without having been awakened. In animal testing, the animals live for some period of time after the intervention, subject to any pain or distress that that intervention may provoke. For me, this was a significant difference in determining whether or not the practice is "cruel".

What, then, would be the basis for believing that using pigs in surgery lab is "cruel?" Would it be the actual surgery that we as students performed? The surgeries are performed under general anesthesia. In my view, I couldn't ethically maintain that cutting a living being open under general anesthesia, performing a surgical procedure, and then closing the wound is, in and of itself, "cruel" - since that's what we do every day on the surgical rotation. Granted, the surgical procedures are medically indicated while I suppose that there's no "medical indication" for surgery from the pig's point of view, but I will return to that point below in the discussion of whether or not the lab is "unnecessary."

From my point of view, then, the actual operation was not "cruel," in the sense that it didn't produce undue distress for the pig while the operation was going on. The pigs are closely monitored to ensure that they are continually sedated. The next question then became: is the "cruelness" of the procedure inherent in the fact that the pigs die at the end of the procedure?

Here, my personal values came into play. I am not a vegetarian, although I certainly recognize that there are a host of personal, ethical, and environmental reasons for one to be so. I believe, however, that it would have been logically inconsistent for me to eat meat and refuse to participate in the pig lab on the basis that the death of the pigs was unethical. Take the eating of pork for food: in the United States alone, 1200-1300 pigs per hour are slaughtered for human consumption [1]. The slaughter process for food is certainly equally or less humane than the Hopkins lab: pigs are stunned (with electric shocks or carbon dioxide), then bled out before being processed. Any Google search will bring up a host of sites describing the problems with the process on factory farms. It's always a little curious to me that those advocating for pigs' rights would spend so much time focusing on a lab like Hopkins - where there are 3 labs per surgery rotation, each involving ~6-8 pigs, five times per year - as compared to the much larger volume of pigs slaughtered for food in much less humane conditions.

Yet, clearly, establishing that a process is more humane than the slaughter of pigs on factory farms is not a great argument for its ethical appeal. At this point, however, I had established for myself that the use of pigs at Hopkins was not any more cruel than the ideal procedure that I could imagine for food production, and I therefore wouldn't reject the process while still eating meat. This calculus clearly changes if one is a vegetarian, which I wholly respect.

Second, is the process "unnecessary?" Clearly, if your criterion is "can we do without it?" the answer must be "yes" - many other schools do not have pig labs for their surgery rotation. Yet perhaps a more relevant question would be "what is to be gained from the sacrifice of these pigs?" Again, I believe that food consumption is a relevant comparison: those of us who eat meat condone the death of animals on a massive scale for our personal consumption, clearly at no benefit for the animal. By analogy, my personal ethical framework allows for the death of an animal if a substantial benefit is produced for humans. Again, this is a different framework than that of a vegetarian.

So, what is there to be gained? On your surgical rotation, you're by and large a passive observer. Sure, you're allowed to close the surgical wound, retract, and even assist with various procedures when you're farther along in your training. Yet as those of you who want to be surgeons well know, that's not what keeps people in surgery. As medical students, we get no taste of the decision-making, planning, and leadership that runs through the lead surgeon's mind during a procedure.

As others have mentioned above, the pig lab is the best technical training that one could receive as a medical student during the curriculum. There is no substitute for the feel of the tension of thread between your fingers as you tie off a blood vessel, balancing the need to tie a solid knot against the risk of tearing the vein. There are simply things that we do in the pig lab that you as a medical student don't get to do - and for good reason - on your surgery rotation: from start to finish, you and your team members do a nephrectomy, a splenectomy, a bowel anastamosis, and a partial pneumonectomy (among other procedures). Once you've been in anatomy lab and in surgery, you recognize that there is no comparison between the two from a technical standpoint. While simulation has come a long way - and Hopkins certainly has its share of laparoscopic training opportunities (even a Da Vinci robot for training), open surgery has its own needs.

Yet the biggest impact on your training is mental & psychological. There are few other times in medical school where you and your classmates assume the primary role. Here, you take your turn as the lead surgeon or first assist, and it is a totally different experience from watching or assisting on the rest of the rotation. It is an entirely different sensation to plan the incision, decide whether it should be extended or not, and then enter the abdomen, your mind racing to integrate all of the anatomy you learned two years earlier as you decide which vessels to tie off first. You have to anticipate which instruments you'll need, coordinate with the others around the table to optimize your exposure, position the lights correctly. I am certainly not a surgeon; I'm going into a more medically-related specialty. Yet the pig lab was the best glimpse into what it's like intellectually to be a surgeon, and for that I felt that the lab was invaluable.

So for all that, I believe it's not an ethically clear-cut situation, although after careful consideration I feel that it was a real asset to my education here. I do get somewhat frustrated when organizations like PCRM assert that such a lab is categorically wrong, although I appreciate their objections. It's a difficult question that really gets to the heart of the difficulty of medical education: to what lengths are we willing to go to better the training of the next generation of physicians? I think that it's a more important question when applied to the ways that we as students interact with humans, but that's my point of view. In any case, it's a question that deserves thoughtful discussion.

Finally, I would point out that - for those of you for whom animal rights in medical research are an important issue - Hopkins is a leader in this field as well. The Center for Alternatives to Animal Testing (CAAT) at the School of Public Health is dedicated to the "3 Rs" of developing alternatives: replacement, reduction, and refinement of current methods. So if you're interested in actually solving the problem of furthering medical knowledge while reducing the impact on animals, rather than simply protesting, there's a place for you here as well.

So come to Hopkins - where we think deeply about important things and consider them with the carefulness that they deserve! It doesn't go on bumper stickers as well as "stop the pig lab," but I believe that the discussion makes me a better medical student and future physician.

As a final note, I think what you're describing, in your discussion of what you gained from operating on pigs, is essentially the "wow factor."

Out of the 110+ allopathic medical schools, Hopkins is one of the SEVEN that still uses pigs during the surgical clerkship/residency. I think you'll find that the other schools produce just as many great surgeons, with the same intellectual skills that you describe acquiring at the cost of the pigs' lives.

Again, I'll refer those interested to the faq prepared by PCRM (citations are on a subsequent page). I look forward to continuing to assert that such labs are categorically wrong- I hope y'all come around one day.

Lastly, I'd like to once more wish those accepted a hearty congratulations and the best of luck in your careers in medicine.
 
As a Hopkins student who has done my surgical rotation and someone who has actually personally raised pigs and seen them slaughtered for food (while I was living abroad), here's my perspective on the use of pigs in the surgical rotation.

I wouldn't contest maowl's assertion that pigs are intelligent, social animals; I think it would be hard to have worked with pigs and not believe that. At the beginning of the surgical curriculum, each student is given the choice to participate or not to participate in the pig lab - a decision that can be reversed at any time, and truly without penalty. The surgical rotation administration has faced a lot of criticism for the use of pigs in the lab, especially through groups like PCRM, and they took great pains to emphasize that participation was entirely voluntary.

When it came time for me to choose, I weighed a couple of things in my mind in order to discern whether I believed that the practice was, as maowl writes, "cruel and unnecessary".

First, are there differences between animal testing and the use of animals in the surgical lab? I believe that there are. In what one would commonly consider animal testing, animals are subjected to an intervention, and then followed to see the effects of that intervention. In the pig surgery lab at Hopkins, the pigs are placed under general anesthesia by veterinary assistants, remain anesthetized for the duration of the procedure, and then euthanized at the end of the procedure without having been awakened. In animal testing, the animals live for some period of time after the intervention, subject to any pain or distress that that intervention may provoke. For me, this was a significant difference in determining whether or not the practice is "cruel".

What, then, would be the basis for believing that using pigs in surgery lab is "cruel?" Would it be the actual surgery that we as students performed? The surgeries are performed under general anesthesia. In my view, I couldn't ethically maintain that cutting a living being open under general anesthesia, performing a surgical procedure, and then closing the wound is, in and of itself, "cruel" - since that's what we do every day on the surgical rotation. Granted, the surgical procedures are medically indicated while I suppose that there's no "medical indication" for surgery from the pig's point of view, but I will return to that point below in the discussion of whether or not the lab is "unnecessary."

From my point of view, then, the actual operation was not "cruel," in the sense that it didn't produce undue distress for the pig while the operation was going on. The pigs are closely monitored to ensure that they are continually sedated. The next question then became: is the "cruelness" of the procedure inherent in the fact that the pigs die at the end of the procedure?

Here, my personal values came into play. I am not a vegetarian, although I certainly recognize that there are a host of personal, ethical, and environmental reasons for one to be so. I believe, however, that it would have been logically inconsistent for me to eat meat and refuse to participate in the pig lab on the basis that the death of the pigs was unethical. Take the eating of pork for food: in the United States alone, 1200-1300 pigs per hour are slaughtered for human consumption [1]. The slaughter process for food is certainly equally or less humane than the Hopkins lab: pigs are stunned (with electric shocks or carbon dioxide), then bled out before being processed. Any Google search will bring up a host of sites describing the problems with the process on factory farms. It's always a little curious to me that those advocating for pigs' rights would spend so much time focusing on a lab like Hopkins - where there are 3 labs per surgery rotation, each involving ~6-8 pigs, five times per year - as compared to the much larger volume of pigs slaughtered for food in much less humane conditions.

Yet, clearly, establishing that a process is more humane than the slaughter of pigs on factory farms is not a great argument for its ethical appeal. At this point, however, I had established for myself that the use of pigs at Hopkins was not any more cruel than the ideal procedure that I could imagine for food production, and I therefore wouldn't reject the process while still eating meat. This calculus clearly changes if one is a vegetarian, which I wholly respect.

Second, is the process "unnecessary?" Clearly, if your criterion is "can we do without it?" the answer must be "yes" - many other schools do not have pig labs for their surgery rotation. Yet perhaps a more relevant question would be "what is to be gained from the sacrifice of these pigs?" Again, I believe that food consumption is a relevant comparison: those of us who eat meat condone the death of animals on a massive scale for our personal consumption, clearly at no benefit for the animal. By analogy, my personal ethical framework allows for the death of an animal if a substantial benefit is produced for humans. Again, this is a different framework than that of a vegetarian.

So, what is there to be gained? On your surgical rotation, you're by and large a passive observer. Sure, you're allowed to close the surgical wound, retract, and even assist with various procedures when you're farther along in your training. Yet as those of you who want to be surgeons well know, that's not what keeps people in surgery. As medical students, we get no taste of the decision-making, planning, and leadership that runs through the lead surgeon's mind during a procedure.

As others have mentioned above, the pig lab is the best technical training that one could receive as a medical student during the curriculum. There is no substitute for the feel of the tension of thread between your fingers as you tie off a blood vessel, balancing the need to tie a solid knot against the risk of tearing the vein. There are simply things that we do in the pig lab that you as a medical student don't get to do - and for good reason - on your surgery rotation: from start to finish, you and your team members do a nephrectomy, a splenectomy, a bowel anastamosis, and a partial pneumonectomy (among other procedures). Once you've been in anatomy lab and in surgery, you recognize that there is no comparison between the two from a technical standpoint. While simulation has come a long way - and Hopkins certainly has its share of laparoscopic training opportunities (even a Da Vinci robot for training), open surgery has its own needs.

Yet the biggest impact on your training is mental & psychological. There are few other times in medical school where you and your classmates assume the primary role. Here, you take your turn as the lead surgeon or first assist, and it is a totally different experience from watching or assisting on the rest of the rotation. It is an entirely different sensation to plan the incision, decide whether it should be extended or not, and then enter the abdomen, your mind racing to integrate all of the anatomy you learned two years earlier as you decide which vessels to tie off first. You have to anticipate which instruments you'll need, coordinate with the others around the table to optimize your exposure, position the lights correctly. I am certainly not a surgeon; I'm going into a more medically-related specialty. Yet the pig lab was the best glimpse into what it's like intellectually to be a surgeon, and for that I felt that the lab was invaluable.

So for all that, I believe it's not an ethically clear-cut situation, although after careful consideration I feel that it was a real asset to my education here. I do get somewhat frustrated when organizations like PCRM assert that such a lab is categorically wrong, although I appreciate their objections. It's a difficult question that really gets to the heart of the difficulty of medical education: to what lengths are we willing to go to better the training of the next generation of physicians? I think that it's a more important question when applied to the ways that we as students interact with humans, but that's my point of view. In any case, it's a question that deserves thoughtful discussion.

Finally, I would point out that - for those of you for whom animal rights in medical research are an important issue - Hopkins is a leader in this field as well. The Center for Alternatives to Animal Testing (CAAT) at the School of Public Health is dedicated to the "3 Rs" of developing alternatives: replacement, reduction, and refinement of current methods. So if you're interested in actually solving the problem of furthering medical knowledge while reducing the impact on animals, rather than simply protesting, there's a place for you here as well.

So come to Hopkins - where we think deeply about important things and consider them with the carefulness that they deserve! It doesn't go on bumper stickers as well as "stop the pig lab," but I believe that the discussion makes me a better medical student and future physician.

MCAT Verbal Section

The author implies that careful analysis of which of the following factors must be upheld in an ethical judgement of using live animals for medical school instruction:

I. Necessity in providing hands on training
II. Efficacy of utilizing live animals over live patients
III. Value vs. cruelty assessment of overall goals

A) I only
B) III only
C) I and III
D) I, II, III

It can be inferred from that the text that the author would agree with each of the following statements EXCEPT;

A) Hopkins is a world leader in animals rights in medical research
B) Veganism is an acceptable personal choice
C) Death of live animals is acceptable any time it is medically related
D) The notion that use of live animals during medical training is a more humane process than domestic butchering is not an acceptable ethical appeal towards its cause

The author most likely notes the intellectual stimulation associated with live animal training in order to:

A) Suggest a new line of thinking with regards to medical training
B) Provide support towards the assertion that live animal testing is necessary
C) Provide support that Hopkins is the only good medical school in the nation and that all other schools are garbage
D) Point out an inherent flaw in traditional anatomical training
 
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MCAT Verbal Section

The author implies that careful analysis of which of the following factors must be upheld in an ethical judgement of using live anaimals for medical school instruction:

I. Necessity in providing hands of training
II. Efficacy of utilizing live animals over live patients
III. Value vs. cruelty assessment of overall goals

A) I only
B) III only
C) I and III
D) I, II, III

It can be inferred from that the text that the author would agree with each of the following statements EXCEPT;

A) Hopkins is a world leader in animals rights in medical research
B) Veganism is an acceptable personal choice
C) Death of live animals is acceptable any time it is medically related
D) The notion that use of live animals during medical training is a more human process than domestic butchering is not an acceptable ethical appeal towards its cause

The author most likely notes the intellectual stimulation associated with live animal training in order to:

A) Suggest a new line of thinking with regards to medical training
B) Provide support towards the assertion that live animal testing is necessary
C) Provide support that Hopkins is the only good medical school in the nation and that all other schools are garbage
D) Point out an inherent flaw in tradition anatomical training
:laugh: You're pretty good. I think you could have a test writing career if this whole medicine thing doesn't work out.
 
and this is why so many students stay away from SDN... smh
 
I would like to point out that I DID NOT flame Hopkins. I DO NOT think that their archaic practices (while cruel) should sway anyone in this or her decision to attend. All of this has been an extended request to apply pressure to end a backward practice at an otherwise stellar institution.

The pretentiousness here is phenomenal (I guess I should know better on SDN). I would posit that you're the one infusing didacticism to detract from "responsible moral discourse."

If you don't care, fine. Medicine is unique as a career, imho, in that it combines an this intellectualism of which you speak with compassion. That you cannot extend compassion in this case to other salient beings is unfortunate.

[FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]"The human spirit is not dead. It lives on in secret.... It has come to believe that compassion, in which all ethics must take root, can only attain its full breadth and depth if it embraces all living creatures and does not limit itself to mankind." ~Albert Schweitzer, Novel Peace Prize address, "The Problem of Peace in the World Today".
[/QUOTE]

I do not quite understand what pretentiousness on SDN has to do with this (it also happens to be the typical 'argumentum ad SDN pedigree'). I offer no didactic qualification for any of my statements (unlike your overtly inferred ideological sympathies (to PCRM) and a strong undercurrent of moralism that characterizes the practices at JHU as 'archaic and backward' - the exact ingredients for didactic demagoguery!!). I shall humbly confess my lack of authority or enlightenment in matters of morality. The forum here does not lend itself to responsible moral discourse which is why it is insincere for you to take offense to anything I said. You posted your philosophies on this forum to invite a response. I actually have no objections to what you profess...like I said - great fodder for philosophical discourse! If you take offense to anything said here in response to your proselytics, it is not because anything anyone has said so far is intended to slight you or your position. You qualified your argument with didactic proof...my pointing that out is neither pretentious nor intended to personally deride your expertise or lack thereof. I do love the quote by Schweitzer who's statement is at the very core of the existential ethics that must anchor the responsibilities that come with being human in a natural state.
 
MCAT Verbal Section

The author implies that careful analysis of which of the following factors must be upheld in an ethical judgement of using live animals for medical school instruction:

I. Necessity in providing hands on training
II. Efficacy of utilizing live animals over live patients
III. Value vs. cruelty assessment of overall goals

A) I only
B) III only
C) I and III
D) I, II, III

It can be inferred from that the text that the author would agree with each of the following statements EXCEPT;

A) Hopkins is a world leader in animals rights in medical research
B) Veganism is an acceptable personal choice
C) Death of live animals is acceptable any time it is medically related
D) The notion that use of live animals during medical training is a more humane process than domestic butchering is not an acceptable ethical appeal towards its cause

The author most likely notes the intellectual stimulation associated with live animal training in order to:

A) Suggest a new line of thinking with regards to medical training
B) Provide support towards the assertion that live animal testing is necessary
C) Provide support that Hopkins is the only good medical school in the nation and that all other schools are garbage
D) Point out an inherent flaw in traditional anatomical training

My answers: C, C, A
 
1. http://pcrm.org/research/edtraining/meded/literature-on-animal-laboratories
Also, look at the FAQ cited in my original post.

2. I couldn't agree more. It ISN'T any more salient of an ethical issue. IMHO, they're all pretty awful things to inflict on animals. I'd love to discuss this more, but PM if you can- I don't want to detract from my OP.

3. "food is surely one of them" I couldn't disagree more...

BOTTOM LINE: at least be informed, and email JHU if you can

:troll:
 
Has anyone updated their files b/f interviewing? If we want to update (send a new lor) do we just send it to admissions adress or a different adress? Thanks!
 
Has anyone updated their files b/f interviewing? If we want to update (send a new lor) do we just send it to admissions adress or a different adress? Thanks!

I think it's better you do that after you interview!
 
Has anyone updated their files b/f interviewing? If we want to update (send a new lor) do we just send it to admissions adress or a different adress? Thanks!

When I interviewed I told my interviewer about an update I hadn't sent in yet. He advised me to submit it that very evening, as they would need it soon -- this was confusing to me, as we had already been told that the committee wouldn't meet for another month or so. Regardless, I'd send the LOR in now.
 
When I interviewed I told my interviewer about an update I hadn't sent in yet. He advised me to submit it that very evening, as they would need it soon -- this was confusing to me, as we had already been told that the committee wouldn't meet for another month or so. Regardless, I'd send the LOR in now.

Thanks for the tip, so how did you send the update/lor? Just snail mail?
 
Accepted! :)

Super excited! Definitely one of my top choice schools!! Wouldn't have expected this...pretty much ever!
 
congrats! :) if you don't mind me asking, when did you interview and when did you receive a call?
 
Accepted! :)

Super excited! Definitely one of my top choice schools!! Wouldn't have expected this...pretty much ever!

Congrats! :) If you don't mind me asking, when did you interview and when did you receive a call?
 
so will there be no more interview invitations going out? what's the deal exactly? should i write this off as a rejection? complete since 11/15/11 via email
 
Has anyone from January 12-13 interview dates heard back yet? From what I remember I believe they said the admissions committee was going to meet this past weekend.
 
x
 
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On Jan 13 they told us they would meet Feb 25 to discuss our group (unless I misheard the date).

Hm. I was in the Jan 12th group and could swear I was told that we wouldn't have to wait very long to hear, as our committee date was at the beginning of February.
 
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x
 
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Very possible Jan 12 and 13 have different committee meeting dates... or also possible my memory is terrible :)

Also a possibility for me haha. :) Well thanks a ton for your input, just getting a little anxious! But good luck for whenever you do hear! :xf:
 
Interviewed December 17th, got my call Jan 27th :)
 
so will there be no more interview invitations going out? what's the deal exactly? should i write this off as a rejection? complete since 11/15/11 via email

Don't give up hope just yet! I was complete the same day and just got an interview invite a few hours ago :)
 
on jan 12th, they said they would meet in three weeks so around Feb 2, they should have met.
 
Hopkins 24/7 is on right now. That old anatomy lab looks pretty depressing!
 
is anyone else having trouble accessing the link they gave us for interview information? like the last line in that email?
 
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