2018-2019 Waitlist Support Thread

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gyngyn said:
There used to be traffic rules. They were rules that schools and applicants were expected to follow.
They are no more. I wish there were still traffic rules!
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Well, the protocols are supposed to be this year's traffic rules. If you and your peers treat them as mere guidelines you are free to ignore, then I'm afraid you will find you have nothing going forward. Once students realize that there is no consequence to holding multiple acceptances, and CTE does not actually represent a commitment, you and everyone else will wind up flying blind right into orientation and the start of classes. 🙂
 
Nym.Pseudo said:
Damn, beat me to it.
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In that case, please allow me to correct myself -- PTE is the LOI, and CTE is a contract! I'm not saying lawsuits are inevitable; I'm only saying it's ironic that schools would risk litigation by ignoring the system they adopted to avoid the risk of litigation they felt the prior system had. I'm also saying if there is no enforcement, then there is really no system at all!
 
ReturnToMed said:
I would like to note that the LOI in college athletics is an actual contract and enforceable. The CTE is not a contract as it is not enforceable to our knowledge. I don't mean the LOIs people send so people get off waitlists. Those don't mean anything from what I can tell.
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I'm sure the CTE is an enforceable contract. I'm not sure anyone would actually try to enforce it. Again, I never suggested schools would sue students to force them to attend. I'm saying they might sue other schools to stop the post-CTE deadline poaching, and I'm not understanding why schools would risk that when they have candidates on their WLs who have not CTE'd elsewhere.
 
KnightDoc said:
I'm sure the CTE is an enforceable contract. I'm not sure anyone would actually try to enforce it. Again, I never suggested schools would sue students to force them to attend. I'm saying they might sue other schools to stop the post-CTE deadline poaching, and I'm not understanding why schools would risk that when they have candidates on their WLs who have not CTE'd elsewhere.
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because rankings. Rather poach a high quality candidate than get stuck with someone without a CTE.
 
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LabileEmotions said:
AGAIN, do not lose hope. Mercer, as another poster stated, is a school that historically takes up to two thirds of their WL to fill the class. Be patient.
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While historically there is a lot of waitlist movement at Mercer, seems like 110-115 people accepted their seats into the class already. I doubt Mercer will fill it’s class with the same level of waitlisters as previous years. Just something to keep in mind.
 
LabileEmotions said:
What is Mercer's typical class size? And how do you know that 110-115 people have CTE'd at Mercer?
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Class size I believe is 122. I’m not sure where they got the CTE but since they’re accepted to Mercer it may be from other students.

I’ve pretty much given hope on Mercer. I feel foolish for waiting it out this long.

I saw their MSAR this year and they stated they put only 150 or so on the waitlist and they plan to accept 50. However the email the waitlisters got stated they waitlisted 230. I’m not entirely sure of any movement though.
 
DrOptimusPrime said:
Class size I believe is 122. I’m not sure where they got the CTE but since they’re accepted to Mercer it may be from other students.

I’ve pretty much given hope on Mercer. I feel foolish for waiting it out this long.

I saw their MSAR this year and they stated they put only 150 or so on the waitlist and they plan to accept 50. However the email the waitlisters got stated they waitlisted 230. I’m not entirely sure of any movement though.
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the MSAR now tells how many people get put on waitlists?
 
justkeepswimming1050 said:
Only if the school chooses to share that info. But I‘m not sure if the data from last year’s MSAR is going to be accurate for this year.
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good point. If I PM you can you tell me if a school I am interested in has data. I am still debating on whether to spend on the MSAR now since their discount is only 20%.
 
LabileEmotions said:
What is Mercer's typical class size? And how do you know that 110-115 people have CTE'd at Mercer?
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Around 120. Facebook group is reaching around 150 or so so there are a minimum of around 100-115 enrolled for 2023. Rest are current med students posting for the incoming class. Only know of one classmate who was in the group who left to go to MCG. The sentiment is that many are committed to Mercer. Accepted Students day in late April had a vast majority of the class of 120 show up as well.
 
ReturnToMed said:
good point. If I PM you can you tell me if a school I am interested in has data. I am still debating on whether to spend on the MSAR now since their discount is only 20%.
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You can pm me if you like. I don’t mind checking for you
 
Lakeshow0027 said:
Around 120. Facebook group is reaching around 150 or so so there are a minimum of around 100-115 enrolled for 2023. Rest are current med students posting for the incoming class. Only know of one classmate who was in the group who left to go to MCG. The sentiment is that many are committed to Mercer. Accepted Students day in late April had a vast majority of the class of 120 show up as well.
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Has anyone new joined the group and reported getting off the waitlist?
 
KnightDoc said:
Yes, the contract is between the school and the student, just like a non-compete is between an employer and a former employee. The third party (in this case, the school accepting off the WL when it knows, or should know, that the student has CTE'd elsewhere) could be sued for inducing the breach of the contract. Google tortious interference. 🙂
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I'm just saying I highly doubt that. They would have to prove that the other school knew the ins and out of their rules regarding CTE since it is not the same across the board. I don't see the benefit of this, especially when gyngyn said that seats going unfilled is unlikely. It's fun to think about, but probably not a priority to these schools. I'm sure they have bigger fish to try then trying to get in a legal battle with another institution over one student.

KnightDoc said:
In that case, please allow me to correct myself -- PTE is the LOI, and CTE is a contract! I'm not saying lawsuits are inevitable; I'm only saying it's ironic that schools would risk litigation by ignoring the system they adopted to avoid the risk of litigation they felt the prior system had. I'm also saying if there is no enforcement, then there is really no system at all!
Click to expand...

I think what you aren't getting is that AAMC changed the rules so that they could avoid litigation, not the schools. AAMC instead put forth suggestions that each school can decide to enforce OR ignore OR make their own rules. There is no standard which is why I don't believe schools can sue schools for not know their individual rules. The new suggestions definitely make the process stranger that's for sure.
 
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KnightDoc said:
Well, the protocols are supposed to be this year's traffic rules. If you and your peers treat them as mere guidelines you are free to ignore, then I'm afraid you will find you have nothing going forward. Once students realize that there is no consequence to holding multiple acceptances, and CTE does not actually represent a commitment, you and everyone else will wind up flying blind right into orientation and the start of classes. 🙂
Click to expand...
We have been specifically told by the AAMC lawyers that they are only suggestions.
I wish there were rules!
We have already been blinded.
 
DrOptimusPrime said:
Has anyone new joined the group and reported getting off the waitlist?
Click to expand...

I counted around 10 student additions since May. I know for a fact some have gotten off the waitlist but idk if all 10 were from waitlist. could have been people who just joined the group late.
 
KnightDoc said:
In that case, please allow me to correct myself -- PTE is the LOI, and CTE is a contract! I'm not saying lawsuits are inevitable; I'm only saying it's ironic that schools would risk litigation by ignoring the system they adopted to avoid the risk of litigation they felt the prior system had. I'm also saying if there is no enforcement, then there is really no system at all!
Click to expand...
You seem to be conflating the AAMC with the medical schools.
We, the medical schools, with one voice opposed the abandonment of traffic rules. The AAMC went ahead anyway. This is a non-system that was foisted upon us!
You are correct in observing that there is no longer a system. That is why each school is making their own rules.
 
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gyngyn said:
You seem to be confusing the AAMC with the medical schools.
We, the medical schools, with one voice opposed the abandonment of traffic rules. They went ahead anyway.
You are correct in observing that there is no longer a system. That is why each school is making their own rules.
Click to expand...
Do you all pay the AAMC to use their service?
 
gyngyn said:
A princely sum.
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Interesting. I have another question why don't schools provide waitlisted applicants with Fin Aid info? I feel like this would speed up the process of knowing who is in and out/
 
ReturnToMed said:
Interesting. I have another question why don't schools provide waitlisted applicants with Fin Aid info? I feel like this would speed up the process of knowing who is in and out/
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It's a lot of work to create award letters for a bunch of students that won't attend. Most fin aid offices are pretty small and it would be such a burden to them to collect and process all the needed docs to give out complete fin aid info. They couldn't properly award scholarships either is my guess.
 
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ReturnToMed said:
Interesting. I have another question why don't schools provide waitlisted applicants with Fin Aid info? I feel like this would speed up the process of knowing who is in and out/
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Financial aid is a separate office that is not under our control.
We can barely get them to send info to accepted students on a timely basis!
 
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ReturnToMed said:
because rankings. Rather poach a high quality candidate than get stuck with someone without a CTE.
Click to expand...

Well, if the quality of someone on a WL varies that greatly depending on whether that someone has another acceptance, then I guess the school's initial evaluation of the candidate wasn't worth much in the first place. 🙂
 
gyngyn said:
Financial aid is a separate office that is not under our control.
We can barely get them to send info to accepted students on a timely basis!
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is it possible for students to file their farsa earlier in the cycle?
 
LabileEmotions said:
AMCAS has devolved, imo, into a monopoly adding too little value for the clients, schools and students, it purports to serve. It's principal goal, as it is with all bureaucracies, is its own self-propagation. It needs to be broken up and to have competition, or to be highly regulated.

It is in many ways like the College Board with the SATs, which is now losing share to ACT.
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Test makers and admissions companies are the biggest rent seekers in society. It is atrocious.
 
OchemOficionado said:
It's a lot of work to create award letters for a bunch of students that won't attend. Most fin aid offices are pretty small and it would be such a burden to them to collect and process and the need docs to give out complete fin aid info. They couldn't properly award scholarships either is my guess.
Click to expand...
Don’t they just have fancy calculators that do most of the work though? 😉
 
OchemOficionado said:
I'm just saying I highly doubt that. They would have to prove that the other school knew the ins and out of their rules regarding CTE since it is not the same across the board. I don't see the benefit of this, especially when gyngyn said that seats going unfilled is unlikely. It's fun to think about, but probably not a priority to these schools. I'm sure they have bigger fish to try then trying to get in a legal battle with another institution over one student.

I respectfully disagree. They only have to show that they had a CTE, the other school had a way to see it (the CYMS report they could run), and the other school interfered with it. Ignorance of the law is never a defense. Again, it would never be over one student. It would be to stop all of the higher ranked schools from poaching lots of their students, year after year, after they have made commitments, in order to bring some order and predictability to the construction of the class.

I think what you aren't getting is that AAMC changed the rules so that they could avoid litigation, not the schools. AAMC instead put forth suggestions that each school can decide to enforce OR ignore OR make their own rules. There is no standard which is why I don't believe schools can sue schools for not know their individual rules. The new suggestions definitely make the process stranger that's for sure.
Click to expand...

You are correct about schools being free to decide whether and when to use PTE and CTE. I'm talking about one school's right to infringe on a contractual right another school has when it induces a student to break a commitment. I think it's actionable. Look, we all have opinions, and none of us really knows what we're talking about, other than maybe @gyngyn.

All will be revealed in a month or so. I'm just saying not to be shocked if virtually nobody who is CTE'd anywhere will be called off any WLs, including @gyngyn's. This even applies to WL schools that haven't implemented CTE themselves, since they would have the same potential issue if they refuse to respect a contract that a CTE has entered into with a student.

I'm also hedging my bet by saying that if you are correct, then all bets are off going forward, and nobody is going to know anything until after classes start if CTE is not going to be respected or enforced. That will be a much bigger problem for the schools than having to fill out a class with WL students with no other acceptances, and yes, @gyngyn is 1,000% correct, the biggest losers will be the students who will lose the ability to move around after the CTE deadline, but that is the price of losing the MAR.
 
gyngyn said:
You seem to be conflating the AAMC with the medical schools.
We, the medical schools, with one voice opposed the abandonment of traffic rules. The AAMC went ahead anyway. This is a non-system that was foisted upon us!
You are correct in observing that there is no longer a system. That is why each school is making their own rules.
Click to expand...

Fair enough! I'm just saying that ignoring CTE will create total chaos across the board. You did not answer my earlier question; please let me know if you are unable, but if you can say, assuming you have open seats after your CTE deadline, is your school going to pull off the WL without regard to the CTE status of the students in question? If your answer is "no," then that says it all! Also, did anyone ask the AAMC lawyers whether schools would have any legal exposure if they interfered with another school's implementation of the CTE suggestion?
 
ReturnToMed said:
yo can someone please hit me a link to the deadlines thread. i went all the way back into the 60s and couldn't find the link.
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forums.studentdoctor.net

2018-2019 "Commit to Enroll" Deadlines

This thread was suggested so that applicants can view this information in one place so let's see if we can compile a list. Please feel free to make additions and corrections where necessary. Selecting "Commit to Enroll" at a school means that you're agreeing to communicate to your other...
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net
 
justkeepswimming1050 said:
forums.studentdoctor.net

2018-2019 "Commit to Enroll" Deadlines

This thread was suggested so that applicants can view this information in one place so let's see if we can compile a list. Please feel free to make additions and corrections where necessary. Selecting "Commit to Enroll" at a school means that you're agreeing to communicate to your other...
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net
Click to expand...
thanks my dude
 
KnightDoc said:
Fair enough! I'm just saying that ignoring CTE will create total chaos across the board. You did not answer my earlier question; please let me know if you are unable, but if you can say, assuming you have open seats after your CTE deadline, is your school going to pull off the WL without regard to the CTE status of the students in question? If your answer is "no," then that says it all! Also, did anyone ask the AAMC lawyers whether schools would have any legal exposure if they interfered with another school's implementation of the CTE suggestion?
Click to expand...
yo dawg. you are making a bigger deal out of this than it really is.
 
ReturnToMed said:
yo dawg. you are making a bigger deal out of this than it really is.
Click to expand...

Really? Except for people with no acceptances, it's a huge deal! It's the difference between being locked into a less than ideal situation once CTE time rolls around, giving up a seat in the hope that a WL offer comes, or being able to make a CTE selection risk-free, knowing that a WL offer could still come through, and that offer could still be accepted, albeit at a loss of a deposit at CTE school.
 
KnightDoc said:
Really? Except for people with no acceptances, it's a huge deal! It's the difference between being locked into a less than ideal situation once CTE time rolls around, giving up a seat in the hope that a WL offer comes, or being able to make a CTE selection risk-free, knowing that a WL offer could still come through, and that offer could still be accepted, albeit at a loss of a deposit at CTE school.
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Read my figurative lips. Schools are going to do what's in their best interest. No one is going to sue each other since academia despite its size is a rather small community. You sitting here talking about legal stuff and the ramifications and what not isn't going to influence anything. We already know the consequences if schools ignore CTE deadlines and student commitments. We don't need a constant rehash.

Now can we all get back to the misery and memes? Thanks. This wasn't meant to be rude it just gets tiresome to see the same thing rehashed when I see no one in here with actual legal knowledge/practice.
 
ReturnToMed said:
is it possible for students to file their farsa earlier in the cycle?
Click to expand...

FAFSA opens in Oct every year. Doesn't mean you'll get your fin aid package any faster than someone that submits in Feb.


KnightDoc said:
Fair enough! I'm just saying that ignoring CTE will create total chaos across the board. You did not answer my earlier question; please let me know if you are unable, but if you can say, assuming you have open seats after your CTE deadline, is your school going to pull off the WL without regard to the CTE status of the students in question? If your answer is "no," then that says it all! Also, did anyone ask the AAMC lawyers whether schools would have any legal exposure if they interfered with another school's implementation of the CTE suggestion?
Click to expand...

We all agree this new process is chaos.

Not sure why anyone would ask AAMC that. AAMC doesn't even care which schools implement what. They are clearly taking a hands-off approach.
 
ReturnToMed said:
Read my figurative lips. Schools are going to do what's in their best interest. No one is going to sue each other since academia despite its size is a rather small community. You sitting here talking about legal stuff and the ramifications and what not isn't going to influence anything. We already know the consequences if schools ignore CTE deadlines and student commitments. We don't need a constant rehash.

Now can we all get back to the misery and memes? Thanks. This wasn't meant to be rude it just gets tiresome to see the same thing rehashed when I see no one in here with actual legal knowledge/practice.
Click to expand...

I hear you, I agree with you, and I'm trying (not so successfully, apparently!) to say that it will be in their best interest not to ignore CTE status when pulling from the WL. It's not just legal; it's also that chaos will reign if they have no actual way to know who is showing up until classes start.
 
KnightDoc said:
I hear you, I agree with you, and I'm trying (not so successfully, apparently!) to say that it will be in their best interest not to ignore CTE status when pulling from the WL. It's not just legal; it's also that chaos will reign if they have no actual way to know who is showing up until classes start.
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But it is in the best interest of top schools to ignore CTE because why would they care about lower tier schools when their job is to get the highest quality candidate to their institution. Chaos or not they won't feel it because they have the power and a lawsuit would cause waves in the community that no one wants. Top tier is protected.
 
Throwback to an oldie but goodie I made to counteract the seriousness this thread has been going through lately.
266485
 
OchemOficionado said:
FAFSA opens in Oct every year. Doesn't mean you'll get your fin aid package any faster than someone that submits in Feb.




We all agree this new process is chaos.

Not sure why anyone would ask AAMC that. AAMC doesn't even care which schools implement what. They are clearly taking a hands-off approach.
Click to expand...

Because @gyngyn said "We have been specifically told by the AAMC lawyers that they are only suggestions." I wondered if they had an opinion on what might happen if some schools interfered with other schools' implementation of the "suggestions." 🙂

The approach isn't that hands-off, insofar as they did put this system in place, as opposed to truly having nothing and having each school do whatever it wants!
 
ReturnToMed said:
But it is in the best interest of top schools to ignore CTE because why would they care about lower tier schools when their job is to get the highest quality candidate to their institution. Chaos or not they won't feel it because they have the power and a lawsuit would cause waves in the community that no one wants. Top tier is protected.
Click to expand...

You might be right, but, on the other hand, they might not have the power if someone adversely affected challenges it! I wouldn't be so sure that a lower ranked school would value the absence of waves above its job to get the highest quality candidate to its institution!!! 🙂
 
ReturnToMed said:
But it is in the best interest of top schools to ignore CTE because why would they care about lower tier schools when their job is to get the highest quality candidate to their institution. Chaos or not they won't feel it because they have the power and a lawsuit would cause waves in the community that no one wants. Top tier is protected.
Click to expand...

So if I'm waitlisted at a not T20 schooll, is it more likely that they actually WILL pay attention to CTE? It looks like theirs is 6/24.
 
Tetines of Paris said:
So if I'm waitlisted at a not T20 schooll, is it more likely that they actually WILL pay attention to CTE? It looks like theirs is 6/24.
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I think so but then again if top schools ignore the CTE then they have to be ready to pull people quickly.
 
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