Case (UP) vs. NYU - 2012 Edition

[tomatosauce]

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Since I was recently pulled off the wait lists at both schools (University Program at Case and regular M.D. at NYU) and thus did not attend their respective second-looks, I am hoping to gain some insight from SDN-ers. Thanks in advance for your help!

Cost
Comparable, in my opinion, and will not factor in my decision.

Location
I would enjoy living in New York City more than living in Cleveland, but location is secondary to factors that will be more significant for getting me to where I want to go, career-wise (competitive specialty, academic setting preferred, mix of clinical work and research).

Reputation
Case Western and Cleveland Clinic are both held in very high regard by every physician I have spoken with. While NYU is certainly renowned nationally for business, journalism, and other fields, I'm not sure if it is quite as well-known for medicine. This is important to me only insofar as school reputation plays a role in residency matching.

Curriculum
Case has a 20-month preclinical curriculum that is roughly 50% lecture and 50% group work. Class time is about 16-20 hours/week and evaluations are a week long after each block (six in total, I believe). Step 1 is taken after the preclinical years, and students typically score in the 230s. NYU has an 18-month preclinical curriculum that is also mixed lecture/group work, with tests every two weeks. Clinical rotations start following the first 1.5 years, and Step 1 is taken afterward. Students also score in the 230s, on average. Both are true Pass/Fail.

The biggest difference seems to be the thesis component. At Case, it is mandatory, and can be completed in a variety of topics. At NYU, the optional thesis is part of the Honors program and is limited to research conducted in a laboratory setting. From what I understand, a quality thesis can be helpful for matching into a competitive residency.

Clinical Training
It seems like both are outstanding in this category, when it comes to seeing a diverse population of patients and "zebra" cases alike. My questions are more along the lines of what kind of experience medical students have at either school: how much responsibility are they given, closeness with faculty, etc. Both have stratified grading systems.

Advising
Case sorts its students into "Societies" upon matriculation, with each Society led by a Dean who advises on personal, academic, and career issues. Deans also write recommendation letters for various purposes. NYU assigns each student an advisor upon matriculation but does not divide the student body into separate Societies. From what I understand, this advisor is also available for all-purposes.

Research Opportunities
Since both schools are research powerhouses, I am curious about the ease with which students are able to participate in research. Is the search for a mentor structured or informal? Are faculty members generally willing to take on medical students? Do students encounter significant competition for particular mentors or research programs?

Learning environment
This section is completely based on my subjective experiences. The students at Case seemed to have tremendous pride in their school and commented specifically on their collegiality and collaborative spirit. For some reason, I did not get quite the same impression from NYU students (probably due to sample size). Given how diverse each class is, I am sure that there are people who enjoy working together at either school. However, it appears that some schools attract certain personality types, and I am wondering if there is a difference between the two schools in that respect. Student cohesion, friendliness, etc.

Summary
I am fairly certain that both schools have the capacity to send its students anywhere they would like to go, provided they work hard and put in the time. If that is true, then NYU wins based solely on location. However, one school may open more doors than the other. One might also provide more guidance and support along the way. Based upon my knowledge of Case, I am confident that attending it will get me to where I want to go. But if NYU can also do that, I would much prefer to live in New York City over Cleveland.

So, any thoughts or suggestions? I'd appreciate any help you guys and gals are able to provide! Hopefully the information will help other people as well.

 

[NeuralNetwork]

MS0 for NYU, so I can only comment on what I know..but from your post it looks like your greatest concern is in residency placement. I think that these schools would be viewed fairly similarly in respect to residency directors, but that regional networking can also play an important role down the line.

In respect to your impression of the student body, I noticed quite the opposite when I was there with student hosts and for my interview day; it seemed to be like how you described Case. I've also had a feel about students from a particular school like you did about NYU, but have had others say they felt the opposite. Hard to really say what the reality of it is, since it seems pretty subjective.

In summary, I would not worry about the whole reputation deal...NYU does have a solid medical reputation, and this has also been mirrored in conversation with physicians whom I have spoken with on the west coast. Both schools are great, and if I were in your position, I'd go with overall feel + location as opposed to the smaller details like advising and impression of students.

 

[tomatosauce]

Thanks for the advice, NeuralNetwork! You hit the nail on the head: residency placement is indeed my biggest concern. Not so much "will I be able to match at X," but more so "which school opens more doors" or "which school makes it easier to open certain doors" (no more door analogies, I promise). And honestly, the students I met at both schools were terrific; my student host at NYU was incredibly friendly and awesome. I just felt a bit more collegiality at Case, though I wish I could have attended both Second Looks to get a better sense of the student bodies. Glad to hear you had a different experience! NYU is looking good...

 

[mmmcdowe]

I agree with neural network, both have strong reputations and both have strong match lists. If you like NYC and envision yourself matching there or nearby, NYU is probably the better choice in this regard.

 

[drizzt3117]

There's no significant difference in reputation between these two schools. I would choose nyu in your situation.

 

[Dartmouth1230]

Summary
I am fairly certain that both schools have the capacity to send its students anywhere they would like to go, provided they work hard and put in the time. If that is true, then NYU wins based solely on location. However, one school may open more doors than the other. One might also provide more guidance and support along the way. Based upon my knowledge of Case, I am confident that attending it will get me to where I want to go. But if NYU can also do that, I would much prefer to live in New York City over Cleveland.

So, any thoughts or suggestions? I’d appreciate any help you guys and gals are able to provide! Hopefully the information will help other people as well.

Although US News rankings shouldn't mean much, I do think residency director assessment scores are pretty useful. Both Case Western and NYU have a score of 3.8, and both will open doors for you if you do well. Given your situation, I would definitely choose NYU. Good luck with your choice!

 

[tomatosauce]

Thanks for all the input! You guys rock.

 

[devolution]

My decision also came down to both of these schools. I went to both of their second looks so I can provide my opinion.

I agree with the previous posters that both schools are on par with each other and will open the same amount of doors for residency. In both schools the students and administration emphasized that you will get a lot of experience/independence/hands on work during your rotations. I do think Case has an advantage though in their research block. You will have protected research time and if you work hard on it, it will look good for residency applications. In NYU you will have to find time outside of classes to do research. Of course it's possible, but it'll take more effort on your part to fit it into an already busy schedule.

What really distinguished the schools in my mind was the students. I agree with the impressions OP described above. At Case the students were really proud and enthusiastic about the school. They were there because they liked the school and they wanted to learn. At NYU I felt that a lot of students were there because they wanted to be in New York and the school was an afterthought. This I noticed in both the current students and the prospective students. The Case people also just looked and acted more normal. They felt more human and more genuine. It is hard for me to describe, but the NYU people all just looked too perfect. They were all certainly nice, but it didn't always seem sincere.

Of course, both schools are big and people will have different opinions based on who they meet. For example, the ~15 student ambassadors who guided us around NYU were very different from my student host and her friends. My student host group of friends complained to me about how half of their class go out late way too much (as in going out at least twice, often three times, a week) and act like they're still in an undergraduate party school. This group of students were more studious and dedicated and it seemed like they annoyed by their party-going-roommates.

The same thing goes for Case- the host I stayed with for my interview was studious and serious about classes and she introduced me to similar people at Case. The first night at Case's second look, I met some students who bragged about how hard they partied. They said they go out twice a week as well and they were going to stay out until 4am that night having fun. At the bar night for Case's second look plenty of current students stayed out until the 2am bus picked them up.

Both schools have a large enough class size that I'm sure you'll find other people that have similar interests as you. If you like the night life, there will be people in both schools to join you. If you are more serious about studying, you will also find friends at either school. The main differences I felt in the student population was the fact that people who chose New York over Cleveland will have different priorities and interests than those that chose Cleveland. There is definitely self-selection going on.

I ended up choosing Case, but for reasons that don't apply to you:
I didn't like NYC when I visited, both for the interview and for second look. I don't think I would be happy living there. Cleveland doesn't have anything exciting for me either, but while I think I would be unhappy in New York, I can deal with Cleveland.

Case is cheaper for me than NYU. It's not by a huge amount, but enough to be significant over 4 years. NYU gave me absolutely no financial aid while Case actually provided me a small amount. Cost of living in New York is also much higher. You will pay double for NYU dorms (and get half the amount of space) than what is available in Cleveland. Add in the higher cost of food and doing anything fun and you will see how living in Cleveland is significantly cheaper.

Even though I had cost and location favoring Case, it was still really hard for me to turn down NYU because I preferred NYU's pre-clinical curriculum. But in the end, the higher cost of NYU and being in a city I didn't like was enough to push me over to Case.